Talk:Michael Woo

Just removed unilaterally (with no discussion)

simplified Chinese: 胡绍基; traditional Chinese: 胡紹基; pinyin: Hú Shàojī Badagnani (talk) 03:30, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

I removed the above again because Mr. Woo is an American, not Chinese, and there is no indication that he ever uses them. Also there is no source as to their validity. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis (talk) 18:55, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't take one to be Chinese to have a Chinese name. He has run for mayor and has used his Chinese name even before that campaign (as a councilmember representing a district around Hollywood). He has definitely used the name. Just google it and see. It is also common for any notable person in the English speaking world to be covered by the Chinese-language press in their Chinese name ONLY. Without including their Chinese name here makes their names not able to be reasonably connected. And if you don't agree up to this point, I can easily dig up many many newspapers in the 1990s from a library around Los Angeles. HkCaGu (talk) 20:42, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Every notable ethnic Chinese in the English speaking world with known Chinese name has that name included. Deleting this one is not consistent with the rest of Wikipedia. HkCaGu (talk) 20:49, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Of course I don't intend to get into an extended argument about this matter, right now, but it is odd that Mister Woo is the only L.A. Council member to have Chinese characters attached to his name. There is discussion about WP practice at Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(Chinese)#When_does_a_Chinese_proper_name_cease_to_be_Chinese.3F, and I hope a general guideline can be sorted out there. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis (talk) 05:34, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Note: After engaging in the conversation at the above site, I now realize that the guideline over there has nothing to do with the particular Michael Woo we are talking about. This Michael Woo is an American and is not Chinese. Therefore I am once again removing the characters as well as a link to a non-Reliable source which doesn't seem to bear very much on Mr. Woo's name. In meantime, I am gathering other information about Mr. Woo in preparation for further additions to this article, which I will work on in my Sandbox and submit when it is complete. Thanks to everybody! GeorgeLouis (talk) 12:23, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

"American" and "Chinese" are not mutually exclusive--even for a mono-nationality person. In Wikipedia guides and the MOS, Chinese means the language and the ethnicity. I've also noted that back in the 1990s in Los Angeles, Simplified Chinese would be non relevant, and the characters are too similar to Traditional. HkCaGu (talk) 19:20, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for providing the text in which a translator has rendered Mr. Woo's name into a Chinese character or characters. I believe that anybody would accept that as Additional Reading for this article, but not in the lead paragraph right after Mr. Woo's name. It is not at all certain which character or character Mr. Woo's family used (or still uses) or which character or character Mr. Woo himself uses when he has occasion to write in Chinese, if indeed he does write in Chinese (many Americans of Chinese descent do not). I will be very happy to accept these pages as Additional Reading. Your friend, GeorgeLouis (talk) 00:31, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

More on this: Mr. Woo's name as rendered in Chinese characters is undoubtedly the one used on the Chinatown Business Council page because he himself would have OK'd it. Thanks for finding these two pages, which will be of interest to anybody who can read Chinese. Yours again, GeorgeLouis (talk) 00:56, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

I added his Chinese name under his Biography. GeorgeLouis (talk) 16:12, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Despite your claim of familial ties to Chinese speakers, you continue to show your lack of understanding of the Chinese language and its uses. It does not matter which Chinese character set Woo uses. If it is a publication in traditional characters, then that character set is used. If the publication is in simplified (e.g. China Press vs. all other local newspapers), then that character set is used. Traditional Chinese remains the "lingua franca" in the local Chinese-language community. In many Wikipedia articles, both character sets are used. However, given the practical uses in Southern California and the minute difference for Woo's name (Woo and Kay are identical, only Siu's left side is different) and translatablity of most search engines (Google one set and they'll turn up links containing the other), I've given up presenting the simplified characters.

Wikipedia is a collaborative project. Everyone contributes what he/she knows. Making decisions about what one doesn't know only results in disruptions and waste of everyone's time. HkCaGu (talk) 02:35, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

I understand what you are saying, but there are no sources that Mr. Woo ever used these Romanizations. I guess we will have to go to Dispute Resolution. Thanks for your help. GeorgeLouis (talk) 05:26, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Outdated.

Woo's experiences and jobs since his City Council days need updating. Thank you! GeorgeLouis (talk) 16:32, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Chinese and middle names

GeorgeLouis, thank you for your expansion, but you continue to be disruptive regarding his name. Why do the pronunciations need source? Now I've made it even uglier by providing the wiktionary links. Chinese characters mean nothing to the reader in relation to why his surname is spelled Woo or his middle name Kay, or simply how his name is pronounced. This is why the name is even encyclopedic, and the exact reason why all Chinese personal names appearing in the English Wikipedia contain the Pinyin and romanization of any relevant dialects.

Also, you have validated his date of birth as 1951-10-08 and place of birth as Los Angeles County, and even that his middle initial is K, then why do you not "allow" the public on-line California database to prove his middle name (Kay)? Many other biographical articles use the same database. It has always been considered reliable. HkCaGu (talk) 02:22, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Both good questions. (1) I have never seen anywhere that Mr. Woo's middle name is "Kay." That birth-record database you provided is not official and has at least one error: I put in my own name, with my birthdate and proper county, and got back "George Lewis," not "Louis." I hope that fact alone persuades you to give up on asserting its reliability. (It is more likely that Mr. Woo's middle name is "Kitmer," like his father, but we don't know that either.) (2) I have never seen anywhere that Mr. Woo has himself ever used the Pinyin or Jyutping romanization. Just because it is possible to render his name in those ways doesn't mean he has ever done it. Adding it to this article amounts to Original Research, in my opinion. If you would like a Second Opinion, I would be glad to call for one. As for "disruptive," I plead innocent: I have not added anything I could not source.. Sincerely, your friend, GeorgeLouis (talk) 04:57, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Sorry to be blunt, but here's another evidence that you continue to make determination without knowing the Chinese language and its uses. As in the character sets, it does not matter at all whether he "uses" those two romanizations. Those ARE the two romanizations of the three characters that made up Woo's name. (Or in simple English, that's how those three characters are pronounced in the two relevant dialects.) Romanizations are for the reader, not there because it "belongs" to the subject. (Occasionally, a character that have more than one pronunciation can use romanization to help seeing which one the subject "uses".)

And it's ridiculous to say his middle name is more like the same as his father, who, like a majority of Chinese Americans, naturalized or natural born, put their Chinese name as their English middle name. I've found by simply googling that Michael's grandfather is named 胡傑民 (Jyutping: Wu4 Git6 Man4). That's David Kitman Woo. Michael's father Wilbur is 胡國棟 (Jyutping: Wu4 Gwok3 Dung6) and his middle name is most likely in the vicinity of Kwoktung. (Middle initial K is already verifiable.) Now you're telling me Michael, whose Chinese name's Jyutping is Siu6 Gei1, is more likely Kitman than Kay? HkCaGu (talk) 08:43, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

No, I am just saying that there is no reliable source for his middle name being "Kay." Also, I am saying that it doesn't matter what the romanization of his name is because there is no indication that he ever used it nor is there any source (besides the say-so of one editor) that these are the proper romanizations. Remember, Mr. Woo is not Chinese. It doesn't make any sense for an article about an American of any given ethnic background to contain off-the-point information like the name that other people in other cultures MIGHT use to label him. I am sorry that this point is not obvious to any editor, but this after all is why immigrants come to the United States—to make a new life for themselves. If a good source can be found that Mr. Woo uses these romanizations, why, then they should be included. Yours, GeorgeLouis (talk) 19:25, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

You are beyond help. Whether Mr. Woo "uses" any romanization is irrelevant. You are simply racist to say that he is not Chinese. Chinese is not only a nationality. It is an ethnicity. Being American does not mean one should not use the Chinese language. And it is a fact that many Chinese Americans who no longer speak the language hangs on to a Chinese name as a last piece of their cultural heritage. Pronunciations of the three characters of Michael Woo's Chinese name are not disputable. I've linked Wiktionary. Woo had run commercials on TV in both dialects. I and hundreds of thousands of Angelenos had seen them. This is an international encyclopedia. America-centric ONLY view is not tolerated. And English is THE international language. People of all language backgrounds use this encyclopedia. This is not a place to purify an article. Sorry, but I have to conclude that you simply don't want to see the standard Traditional/Simplified/Pinyin/SomeOtherScheme template due to aesthetic or other more sinister reasons. Disqualifying what has been considered reliable and acceptable sources is beyond ridiculous. You've done nothing but WP:OWNed this article. Please be warned. You will be reported to ANI if you continue to disrupt this article with this attitude. HkCaGu (talk) 20:27, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

It really distresses me that any editor could write such stuff. Oh, well . . . Sincerely, your friend, GeorgeLouis (talk) 20:35, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Chinese name

We have been making some progress in this endeavor. I've inserted the phrase below into the article in the hope that it will satisfy everybody in one way or another. We must remember that people reading this piece are not experts in Chinese and need some hand-holding. "Michael Woo's Chinese name is 胡紹基, which is rendered Hú Shàojī in the Pinyin orthography and Wu4 Siu6 Gei1 in the Jyutping romanization." Sincerely, GeorgeLouis (talk) 15:22, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Middle name

I have never seen anywhere that Mr. Woo's middle name is "Kay." The birth-record database that was provided by an interested editor is not official and has at least one error: I put in my own name, with my birthdate and proper county, and got back "George Lewis," not "Louis." I hope that fact alone persuades one to give up on asserting its reliability. It is possible that Mr. Woo's middle name is "Kitmer," like his father, but we don't know that either. It is also a possibility that he has no middle name, just an initial, like Harry S.Truman. And we don't know that as well. All we know is that his middle initial is K. Thank you. GeorgeLouis (talk) 15:29, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Origins

Nearly a week ago, Michael Woo's journalist sister Elaine, in a piece for the Los Angeles Times, described herself as "a fourth-generation Chinese American" whose "native claims extend to the 1800s" and "Great-Grandfather [Woo]". (Elaine Woo "Asian identity crisis fades to worries of everyday life!", Los Angeles Times, 28 April 2012) Yet in the article we find their parents were "native Chinese". An error, or is Woo's background more complicated than the article's outline? Philip Cross (talk) 10:51, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

She could be talking about any of her four grandparents, eight grandparents, or 16 great-grandparents. Also, it was not uncommon for Chinese Americans to move back to China for a generation or two, and then there's the complicated nationality legality issues of the U.S, the Qing Dynasty, and the ROC. The first generation to arrive in the U.S. in the 1800s may have been excluded for citizenship. HkCaGu (talk) 14:04, 4 May 2012 (UTC)