Talk:Michael Vick/GA2

GA Review[edit]

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Reviewer: Batard0 (talk · contribs) 17:51, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And here we go -- it may take a day or two for me to really dig in, but I'll get started shortly. --Batard0 (talk) 17:51, 21 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

At long last, I'm finally getting started on this one. Sorry about the delay. I'll begin with a detailed review of the prose and then we can address any other issues that may arise. --Batard0 (talk) 08:28, 1 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Good Article review progress box

Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV ()

3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant ()

Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Lead

It might be better to say "He previously played" instead of "He played" in the second sentence, just to be absolutely clear that this was prior to his stint with the Eagles.

In this sentence: "He became the first African-American quarterback to be selected first overall in an NFL Draft." I suggest something a little shorter. It feels like we're repeating the material in the previous sentence to an extent. Maybe: "He was the first African-American quarterback to be taken in that position." Another option might be combining the sentences into something like: "He left after his sophomore year and became the first African-American quarterback to be taken first overall in the NFL draft when the Atlanta Falcons selected him in 2001."

I'd consider moving the following sentence to near the end of the lead, perhaps at the end of the next-to-last paragraph. This is a career stat, and we're not yet done describing his whole career. Did he set the record while with the Falcons? If that's the case perhaps we should keep it where it is, but say that he set the record when with the Falcons. It may also make sense here to describe what set him apart more precisely, maybe something like: "In six seasons with the Falcons, he gained wide popularity for his ability to rush for large gains, setting him apart from quarterbacks who relied more heavily on passing. He led the Falcons to the playoffs twice and set a career record among quarterbacks for rushing yards in XYZ year"

More to come... --Batard0 (talk) 11:40, 1 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'd suggest instead of "over five years" we say "for five years"; the latter establishes the timeline a little more clearly to me.

Instead of "With the loss" I'd recommend being slightly more specific and saying "Hurt financially by the loss"

In "and after attempts to trade him failed, Vick was released" I'd suggest saying "and Vick was released after attempts to trade him failed" simply because this flows a little more smoothly without the extra comma. Not a big deal either way, obviously.

Wikilink 2011 NFL playoffs and NFC East, both of which have articles.

"QB rating" --> "quarterback rating". Also wikilink this to passer rating.

Wikilink Pro Bowl.

We might mention that he made it to three Pro Bowls while with the Falcons in the paragraph where we talk about his Falcons career. That sets up the mention of his fourth Pro Bowl at the end of the lead quite nicely.

I'd merge the final sentence of the lead into the fourth paragraph. In any event, the MoS discourages leads of more than four paragraphs.

This is looking good so far. I'm a notorious nitpicker; these are all minor things.

Early years

At the end of the first paragraph, I'd suggest: "Local people interviewed in a 2007 Richmond Times-Dispatch article said "not much changed" about the place almost ten years after Michael Vick left." This is a little more concise and reads a bit more clearly, at least to me.

I'd suggest "and suggested" instead of "then suggested"

I'd join the sentence about Vick going fishing into the previous paragraph. --Batard0 (talk) 12:13, 1 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Early athletic career

I'd recommend shortening the first sentence to the following: "Michael Boddie's job involved a lot of travel, but he taught football skills to his two sons at an early age." I don't think we need the bit at the beginning about the early years of the family since we say at the end that he taught them "at an early age".

"He taught younger brother Marcus Vick." Here I assume we're saying Michael taught his younger brother, right? If so, I'd recommend saying "Michael" or "The young Michael" instead of "He".

In the bit about Brooks, could we say "also learned about football" or "learned more about football" instead of just "learned about", since we say he also learned from his father? I'd also suggest a slight rewording of this bit for clarity to: "also learned about football from Aaron Brooks, a second cousin four years older."

I don't completely get why throwing three TD passes would merit special attention from coaches and parents. Wouldn't that be pretty normal? Or was his general athletic ability noticed?

I'd suggest merging the final sentence into the previous paragraph and reordering it as follows: "Sports kept me off the streets," Vick told Sporting News magazine in an interview published April 9, 2001. "It kept me from getting into what was going on, the bad stuff. Lots of guys I knew have had bad problems."

High school

Instead of "athletic ability, throwing", I'd suggest "athletic ability and threw" for clarity's sake.

This could use a little clarification: "Vick, as a sophomore, and Tommy Reamon both moved to Warwick High School" Are we saying: "Vick moved to Warwick High School as a sophomore along with his high school football coach, Tommy Reamon"? If so, let's say that.

I'd suggest a slight reordering of the first sentence of the second paragraph to: "Vick was a three-year starter for the Warwick Raiders under Reamon's tutelage, passing for 4,846 yards with 43 touchdowns."

I also suggest moving the sentence "He ran for six touchdowns and threw for three touchdowns in a single game." to the end and rephrasing it a little, so we'd have: "He added 1,048 yards and 18 scores on the ground. As a senior, he passed for 1,668 yards with ten passing and ten rushing touchdowns. In one game in XYZ year, he ran for six touchdowns and threw for three more."

- Done to this point; all the time I have for now. Go Phightins! 20:15, 1 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Are the any citations for the first two paragraphs of the high school section? We will also need one at the end of the early athletic career section, as it ends with a quote from an article.

The link on footnote #12 is dead. I'd also recommend not using quotes in the first sentence of the last paragraph of this section, because it's apparently just an article. I'd go with something like: "As he left the Newport News public housing projects in 1998 with a college scholarship in hand, Vick was seen in the community as a success."

I'd remove this sentence, because I don't think it adds anything substantial to our understanding of Vick's early life: "In a story published in September 2000, while Vick was at Virginia Tech, Michael Boddie told the university's Collegiate Times: "Ever since he learned to throw a football, he's always liked throwing a ball...It's just in his blood."" I would also suggest merging the previous sentence into the paragraph before it. --Batard0 (talk) 12:52, 1 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

College career

The first two paragraphs of this section and the fourth paragraph are uncited. It'd be good to have some sourcing here.

I was a little bit confused re: the second sentence when I first read it, but then I got it upon a second reading. Perhaps we could rephrase it a little to clear things up, maybe like: "He made a spectacular flip to score his last touchdown but landed awkwardly on his ankle, forcing him to miss the remainder of the game and all of the following game."

I'd recommend "Later in the season" instead of "During the season" to start the third sentence; this gives the narrative a sense of continuation beyond the injury.

Suggest replacing "an 11–0 season" with "an 11–0 win-loss record" (Brits and others unfamiliar with the sport often say this is how we should do it, and they're probably right; best to be as accessible as possible.

Recommend "Vick brought the team back" instead of "Vick was able to bring the team back" for conciseness.

In the first sentence of the second para, I recommend saying "1999" instead of "that year" just in case readers don't remember from the first para.

"a record for a freshman (180.4), which was good enough for the third-highest all-time mark." can be shortened to "a record for a freshman (180.4) and the third-highest all-time mark."

"Vick was awarded an ESPY Award" --> "Vick won an ESPY Award" is shorter and says the same thing. I know we repeat "won" again later in the sentence, but readers won't mind this.

"Vick's third place finish" --> "Vick's third-place finish". Compound adjectives take hyphens.

In "highest finish ever" remove "finish" since we've already said that.

"Vick's 2000 season had highlights, such as his career rushing high of 210 yards against the Boston College in Chestnut Hill, Massachusetts." This is probably better phrased as "One highlight of Vick's 2000 season was a career rushing high of 210 yards against Boston College in Chestnut Hill, Massachusetts."

I think "The following week, Vick led the Hokies from a 14–0 deficit against Syracuse" should be "The following week, Vick led the Hokies back from a 14–0 deficit to beat Syracuse". This makes clear early on that he led the team back to win. --Batard0 (talk) 14:52, 1 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The sentence that starts "The following game against Pittsburgh" feels a little long. I'd suggest a rephrase into two sentences like: "Vick was injured the following week against Pittsburgh and was taken out of the game. He remained inactive for games against Central Florida and the Miami Hurricanes, who handed the Hokies their lone loss of the season." This also ends up being a little more concise.

I'd suggest a slight rephrase of "Vick's final game at Virginia Tech came against the Clemson Tigers in the Toyota Gator Bowl, where he was named MVP of the game." to "Vick's final game at Virginia Tech was against the Clemson Tigers in the Toyota Gator Bowl; Virginia Tech won and Vick was named the game's MVP." I'm assuming VT won the game.

I'd change "their 3 bedroom apartment" to "their three-bedroom apartment". At minimum, we should have a hyphen between the number and "bedroom" since it's a compound adjective modifying "apartment".

"Vick stated that he was" --> "Vick said he was" says the same thing and is shorter. This sentence should have a citation after it, since it ends with a quote.

I'd suggest renaming the "Statistics" section "College statistics" just for clarity. It would also be good if these stats were sourced. One way to do it is by adding a new column at the bottom where you put "Source: (whatever the source is)". Some people like to use a regular citation. Whatever you like is fine with me.

This section-- Done

Atlanta Falcons

I'd remove "an astonishing" from the first sentence. It's somewhat unencyclopedic, I think.

This bit: "the fastest 40 time of any quarterback ever in the NFL" could be "the fastest-ever for a NFL quarterback." It's more concise and says the same thing; we needn't repeat "40 time"; it should be clear to readers what we're referring to.

In this part: "had the number one selection but traded the rights to the first overall choice to the Atlanta Falcons" we can remove the repeated reference to the first pick, for example like: "had the number-one selection but traded it to the Atlanta Falcons". Note that "number-one" should be hyphenated because it's a compound adjective modifying "selection".

"first round pick" and "third round pick" should be "first-round pick" and "third-round pick". Same compound adjectives issue.

There's a citation needed tag on the bit about Vick's selection in the MLB draft. Any chance we could find a citation for that? --Batard0 (talk) 15:46, 1 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This sentence looks like it was accidentally inserted at the beginning of the section, but belongs elsewhere: "Vick and teammate RB Warrick Dunn (1,140) became the first quarterback/running back duo to each surpass 1,000 rushing yards in a single season."

At this point, I'm going to do things a little differently because I'm noticing that there are a lot of nitpicking suggestions on grammar and phrasing. I think it'll be more efficient if I edit the article directly and then invite you to revert and discuss if there are any disagreements. I'll leave the above things for you to fix, but will handle the Atlanta Falcons et seq myself. I'll list here only the issues that go beyond copyediting. --Batard0 (talk) 15:53, 1 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I recommend switching out the refs in the first paragraph of this section. Twitter isn't a reliable source; I assume this was reported by newspapers, etc. --Batard0 (talk) 16:10, 1 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The remainder of the section lacks citations. We should have at minimum a citation at the end of each paragraph, but preferably something supporting each fact. It's not required, but unsourced material can be removed, especially in a BLP. I doubt sources would be tough to find for a person of Vick's prominence.--Batard0 (talk) 16:13, 1 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've now made copyedits through the fifth paragraph of the Falcons section. That section, however, covers only 2001 through 2004; there's no information about what he and the Falcons did in 2005, 2006 or 2007. This needs to be in there. If it's unremarkable it can be brief, but it looks like he at least had a Pro Bowl year in 2006. I left the sentence about Vick and Dunn at the end of this section, because I assume this applies to one of the missing seasons.

- Working on poring through the Google News Archives, but right now, I have to run; I'll try to keep working on this later tonight. Thanks for the suggestions. Go Phightins! 00:25, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Suspension

I've made some copyedits here, but it looks good.

Philadelphia Eagles

I'm in this section now, down through the fifth paragraph. Looks pretty good so far. --Batard0 (talk) 19:38, 1 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've finished copyediting this section. It looks ok, generally, but it'd be good to have more information on the 2011 season and also maybe the offseason and first part of the 2012 season. We should also have a source for the regular season and playoff statistics, as with the college section. --Batard0 (talk) 06:03, 2 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Information on 2012 season Added. Go Phightins! 19:45, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Early controversies and crimes

Getting started on the copyediting here. --Batard0 (talk) 06:03, 2 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm done with this section now. No problems here.

Dog fighting investigations

The first para has a citation needed tag, and certainly does need a citation, given that it's about criminal investigations. --Batard0 (talk) 06:21, 2 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Federal prosecution and conviction

I combined a few sections here because they were each just a paragraph long for the most part; I don't think it's necessary to have subheadings every significant step of the way.

First para of this section has a legit citation needed tag.

We'll have to source this section thoroughly. Anything about legal proceedings could easily be challenged or contentious, so it's important to beef up the citations. I'd recommend having a citation after every sentence.

State prosecution and sentencing

Ok, nothing major here.

Political activity

This needs some cleaning up and expanding, potentially. We don't have the context surrounding Vick's support for this bill, nor around the comment calling for Vick to be executed.

Financial troubles

The first paragraph needs some elucidation. We don't say when he was facing a $45 million lawsuit, and the context surrounding him losing endorsement deals...

Major financial obligations

I'm through this now -- it also needs better sourcing in places. There are some dead links in there that should be repaired.

Early proceedings

Finished this section now. It also needs more references. All this legal/bankruptcy stuff should be carefully referenced, I think. We should also stay away from primary sources like court papers, etc.

Reorganization plan

Finished this. The sourcing issues are similar, although this one is slightly better than some of the others.

Awards, records, and accomplishments

This section is sort of random and wholly uncited. I'd recommend having the relevant highlights in the infobox and integrated into the text where we describe his football career. I don't think there's a need for a list in the middle of the article like this.
- Integrated into article and removed listing of in-season accomplishments. Go Phightins! 03:01, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Endorsements

Finished going through this section. Looks fine.

Charitable foundations

Went through it and this looks ok...nothing major.

Documentary series

This is just two sentences and probably shouldn't have its own section. --Batard0 (talk) 11:52, 2 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Removed it entirely; I don't even think it's worth mentioning to begin with. Go Phightins! 02:29, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The way forward

I've gone through and done the copyedits. Once you're done with the issues above, let's discuss what we need to do next. I want to propose a major restructuring after we have all the basic elements in place, because I think the article is a bit disjointed at the moment. There's too much separation between his football career and his legal troubles; they're presented as separate narratives in the article when in fact they're closely interlinked in many ways. Keeping them separate creates confusion, I think, and we end up essentially reading the same story a few different times through a few different lenses. First we get his athletic career, then we get the dogfighting charges that interrupted his athletic career, then we get his financial difficulties that he continues to confront as his athletic career goes on. I want to propose a three-step process, and I'm happy to help out. I think we should:

1) Put in missing information about the end of his Falcons career and the latest developments in his Eagles career. Once that's in place, we'll have the basic elements of his football career all in the article.

2) Reorganize the article into six main parts: 1) his early life (keep what we have because it's fine), 2) his college career (keep this too), 3) his Atlanta Falcons career, integrating any legal trouble that preceded his suspension and criminal charges, 4) his suspension and dogfighting charges -- this will cover his imprisonment and the time he spent out of the league, 5) his financial difficulties -- this takes care of the financial difficulties he faced while in jail and after he got out, including his bankruptcy and 6) his return to professional football with the Eagles. This will include some of the financial difficulties that didn't get resolved until he began playing in the NFL again. After all of this, we may have a section on career statistics; we could also have a personal life section.

3) Once all of this is in place, we then take a thorough look at sourcing, paying special attention to any legal matters and quotes. At that point, it should be in pretty good shape if all goes well.

What do you think about this idea? I'm open to doing it differently if you like, but however we do it I think it's important to bring the article together into one coherent whole instead of a few disjointed pieces. --Batard0 (talk) 12:04, 2 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If you'd like, I'm also perfectly happy not to do such a major reworking of it if you don't have time for it at the moment. I think once all the relevant info is in there about his Falcons and Eagles career and once it's well-cited we'll be at the GA threshold. We can stop there if you want. Just let me know. Anyway, I'm happy to wait for however long is needed. It's not an issue at all. --Batard0 (talk) 11:15, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm open to the reworking, let me just finish the other suggestions. I'll try to have them done in the next couple of days. Go Phightins! 13:45, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've made some additional edits -- mostly copyedits and such, but I also added some sources. I think it's in OK shape at the moment, and I'm glad to see the missing info on the later Falcons and Eagles seasons has been filled in. The only major and important thing that remains to be done is to ensure that the sections on legal and financial troubles are fully sourced. I think it's critical to have sources for absolutely everything here, because these things are inherently contentious and could be challenged. There are at least a couple things that aren't sourced, like the last sentence of the second paragraph of the "State prosecution and sentencing" section and the end of the first paragraph of the Financial troubles section. --Batard0 (talk) 06:31, 26 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What's left to do on this article? From the comments above, it was very close to ready a little over a week ago, and there were clusters of edits later that day and on the 28th. Thanks! BlueMoonset (talk) 00:25, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- It looks like sourcing requested in the final bit has been added. Hence I think it now passes and I'm listing it. --Batard0 (talk) 18:04, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]