Talk:Mary Simpson (house servant)

This article was nominated for deletion on 17 July 2015. The result of the discussion was keep.

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Too much!![edit]

@Bjhillis: Clearly you have done a lot of research on this topic, and a lot of work crafting this article. Sadly, most of that work will probably end up on the cutting room floor. Encyclopedia articles should be brief and to the point. They should not list all of the different possible interpretations of history, but rather should strive to present the version that appears to have the most acceptance (with perhaps a brief mention of other interpretations). In the case of this article, the entire article could probably be summed up in a few sentences:

Mary Simpson is the woman who is generally credited with originating the American tradition of celebrating Washington's birthday.

Story's of Simpson's background vary, but she was probably a slave in Washington's household while he served as President of the United States in New York City from 1789 to 1790. Freed from slavery when Washington moved his household to the new capital city of Philadelphia in 1790, Simpson found work running a bakeshop in New York's financial district. She would celebrate her former master's birthday by opening the doors of her shop to the local businessmen and merchants, serving cakes and whisky punch. As the celebration of Washington's birthday became institutionalized in the mid to late nineteenth century (first as state holidays in various states and later as a national holiday), stories of Simpson's celebrations would often be part of the dialog surrounding the passing of these legislative acts.

The rest of the material that you have written is extraneous, of interest only to the most narrow segment of historians, rather than to the general population for whom we target Wikipedia articles. The fact that your article is as long as the article on George Washington himself speaks largely to its excess detail.

I don't want to start cutting your work to ribbons without giving you the opportunity to edit it first. I hope you take that opportunity. -- WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 13:55, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Woking on pulling the doc's for citation and verification Pages need added for some of the material like William Costin and the various New york Almanacs. I am not original author but I am in contact with. GramereC 12:24, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

There is the issue of undue weight. If the article on George Washington (clearly, one of the most significant figures in American history) is 175K characters, the article on Mary Simpson (barely a footnote in history) should not also be 175K characters. Historians may be fascinated by discovering all of this material about this obscure figure in history, but the general encyclopedia audience is not. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 13:19, 23 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Cut down[edit]

Per the conclusion at WP:Articles for deletion/Mary Simpson (house servant), this article has been edited down to those facts that are clearly verifiable, with the long list of suppositions removed. Let the historians do their research and come to better conclusions so that the suppositions can be removed; until then, let's stick with the verifiable facts. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 14:23, 27 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Was Bushrod Washington her master, not George?[edit]

User:Bjhillis, in the 9 December 2015 revision of the Oney Judge article, identifies William Costin as the cousin of Mary Simpson.[1] William Costin was a slave at Bushfield Manor, the plantation of Bushrod Washington (son of George Washington's brother). Since there is no documentary evidence that links Simpson to George Washington, perhaps Bushrod Washington was her former master. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 23:04, 2 January 2016 (UTC) I will look for the slave census for Bushrod Washington to try to identify Mary Simpson on that list. Where did you find William Costin lived at Bushfield Manor? I am writing a Costin entry for Wikipedia, would love to add that source. Bjhillis,[reply]

WikiDan61, 24.151.10.165, LaMona, Gene93k, Peterkingiron.

I looked thru both Mount Vernon Slaves Censuses (the links are now in the article). The 1786 contains no listing for anyone named "Mary," and the only "Mary" listed in the 1799 is an 11-year-old-girl. With no documentary evidence to connect Mary Simpson to Mount Vernon or to George Washington's NYC presidential household, does your opinion on the notability of this article change?

Also, I am troubled by the article's use of a quote (in a footnote) to assert that George Washington might have fathered Mary Simpson. Published source or not, it is irresponsible to present this assertion without also providing evidence. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 01:01, 3 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid that I'm not all het up about this one. I would, however, switch the order of the paragraphs such that the positive (bakery, cakes) comes before the less clear (Washington's slave). It just reads better that way, and yet the article has the same information. The quote about GW fathering her could be parlayed into a demonstration of how little we really know, and the kinds of rumors that are spawned as a result. LaMona (talk) 01:35, 3 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

To quote from an earlier revision by Bjhillis:[2]:

"Other theories include: (1) Mary is really the nanny, “Moll”, who nursed Martha’s children and grandchildren, since Mary’s and Moll’s immunity to yellow fever, nursing skills and charismatic, loving personalities are a perfect match; or (2) Mary is the lover [of] George Washington—or his daughter from an affair with an enslaved African, so she idealized him!; or (3) she is the daughter of Martha’s son, John Dandridge, and Washington felt responsible for her! And from one of those relationships Mary received freedom and money to start a store! Well, it’s hard to keep the tent up in the winds of innuendo. But outlandish theories will remain until researchers shed light on where she lived from 1752 to 1812, when her name is first recorded in a New York City directory as a 'laundress.' "

How is this fantasy-mixed-with-fact useful? == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 02:14, 3 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A note on Bjhillis's theory that Martha Washington's son could have been the father of Mary Simpson. John Parke Custis (1754–1781) was Martha's son (his last name was Custis, not Dandridge). If Simpson was born about 1752, she was older than him. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 15:44, 4 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I feel that the article is about the right length now. I am not sure how useful it is to repeat the unsubstantiated speculations of historians, however eminent; and I suspect that some may not be eminent. Peterkingiron (talk) 15:41, 10 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Role at St. George's Church--Connection to Rev. Milnor[edit]

Found a 1939 essay by Nugent on Mary Simpson Washington in the digital archives of the NY Public Library, Schomberg Collection. It was part of the Writer's Project sponsored by the U.S. Works Progress Administration.

http://digitalcollections.nypl.org/items/9e775a60-6169-0133-8743-00505686a51c

New details concern Mary's learning to read at the St. George's school, and her attendance at Sunday services. Probably need to create an article on Rev. Milnor, who had been a member of Congress from Philadelphia prior to turning to the pulpit. But within the Mary Simpson article I plan to add her role in supporting the Duane Street School, and her role at St. George's Church.

In general, the current article focuses on Mary's lack of documented connection to George Washington, but falls short of explaining her significant community involvement and commercial success.

I continue to research her true background, based on three connections: (1) the 1812 Record of Assessment records her living at 21 Cliff Street with "Peter Simpson"; (2) the Trinity Church database records a "col'd woman" Mary Simpson marrying Joseph Thompson; and (3) carpenter and umbrella maker, Cato Simpson, and his wife, Hagar Eden Simpson (who attended St. George's Church), an African-American couple, and their three children.

If Mary Simpson was married to Joseph Thompson, then perhaps Peter Simpson was her son, and Cato Simpson her brother. None of these three ties connects back to George Washington.

The statement in her Last Will and Testament that William Costin and Peggy Holmes (who are tied to George Washington) are her cousins requires further research to understand the basis of the connection. Was Mary Simpson's mother or father related to Ann Dandridge?, or is the statement simply an expression of respect for someone she never met? Bjhillis (talk) 11:15, 30 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]