Talk:Marn Grook

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A note about the aboriginal tribe names: I've seen numerous spellings and versions of the names used in the article and am unsure if they're all the same or what. Neither of those mentioned are in List of Australian Aboriginal tribes, but several sources use these names. If someone knows a bit more please feel free to add your 10cents worth. - Ian ≡ talk 10:21, 26 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Psy guy, a few points: I don't see how Marn Grook can be called the "basis" of Aussie Rules as the only major similarity between the two seems to have been high marking. The "basis", if anything was the games played in British and Irish universities in the early 19th century. See the "Modern codes" section in Football and the history section in Australian rules football for more on this. Second, what is the source for the claim that MG was "played right across Australia"? Third, Tom Wills is undoubtedly the inventor of Aussie Rules, since he brought together elements of many different games. Fourth, I think the Marn Grook Trophy needs to be around for more than three years to be worthy of mention. Grant65 (Talk) 03:26, August 6, 2005 (UTC)

Grant, kicking of the ball would obviously seem to be another major similarity. --Rulesfan (talk) 04:12, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There may be some veracity in the myths about Tom Wills and the aboriginal origins of Aussie rules football. However, in my opinion, the game does show evidence of being a synthesis of: firstly early forms of rugby - the ball, the "mark" (still a part of the modern game of Rugby Union), the field goal and secondly the Irish game of hurling - the "dribbling" rules, scoring (major and minor scores), the "clean catch or mark". 202.154.115.154 00:57, 26 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Marn Grook trophy[edit]

Hi Roger, thanks for the message about the project on my talk page. Can we justify saying that Sydney and Essendon are more "highly involved" in the development of Aboriginal players, compared to most other clubs? Grant65 | Talk 07:52, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

one word[edit]

Would be grateful if someone could could provide evidence for the use of two words 'marn' 'grook' instead of 'the bisyllabic 'marngrook'? This may appear pedantic however the way I have seen it spelt is as a bisyllabic single word which is very common in Aboriginal languages? Also the 3CR football show spells it as one word. As it is it will lead to confusion and make searching for the word problematic.Lentisco 01:30, 21 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've read a bit about it and have never seen it as one word; I don't known much about Koori but two word formations (for things that would be one word in English) are very common in other Aboriginal languages. Grant65 | Talk 10:00, 21 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well here are some references:

http://www.aboriginalfootball.com.au

http://www.iafc.com.au/marngrook.htm

http://www.parliament.vic.gov.au/rrsdc/ inquiries/footy/report/historical_context.doc

http://www.australianrules.com.au/manifesto.html

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/deakin/stories/s291489.htm

Importantly the 3CR/3KND football radio show is spelt 'marngrook, the footaball oval at Diamond Creek is spelt 'Marngrook', the trophy between Sydney and Essendon is spelt 'Marngrook'.

However at the aboriginal football site( http://www.aboriginalfootball.com.au ) it is perversely spelt 'Marm-grook'!

But as I see it bisyllabic spelling is more common ie Moomba, Coranderrk, Kulin,Simon Wonga, Derrimut and Barak etc all SE Australian words. So I believe the article should be changed to 'Marngrook'. Any problems? Lentisco 02:33, 22 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, marn grook seems to the common spelling, as suggested by a Google search for "'marn grook' -wikipedia",[1] than "marngrook -wikipedia",[2] by 593 hits to 398. I would want to see something from an expert on Koori before I was convinced that "marngrook" was more correct. Grant65 | Talk 09:57, 22 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well as usual, its very difficult to convey to someone under 40 that the internet does not neccessarily represent reality. As I have tried to show Victorian language spelling is typically non-monosyllabic spelling. And Ill state it again:

Importantly the 3CR/3KND aboriginal football radio show is spelt 'marngrook, the footaball oval at Diamond Creek is spelt 'Marngrook', the trophy between Sydney and Essendon is spelt 'Marngrook'.

Which is good enough for me. Lentisco 02:12, 23 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As my nickname might suggest, I'm 41... and I can also be a grumpy old man when I get wound up ;-) The internet doesn't represent reality, but I'd like to see at least one source more authoritative than the name of a radio show and an oval! I guess you know that there is already a redirect page from marngrook to this one, so there's little chance of someone not being able to find the article. Grant65 | Talk 10:01, 23 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The 'radio show' you allude to is the premier australian aboriginal football show in Australia. Most SE Australian languages have a predominance of bisyllabic words for adjective+noun constructions(which I have twice demonstrated) Ive shown you 'my' evidence- what have you countered with?Lentisco 00:31, 24 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Is the language still spoken today? Because before the 20th century the writing of Aboriginal languages was usually done by clueless white people, and these kinds of distinctions simply weren't made consistently. ～J.K. 06:27, 24 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes you are correct. There is no dictionary as it were though it is still spoken but only by a few. My point is that SE Austrlain languages when tranliterated into the latin alphabet are typically polysyllabic. And the radio show-run by Victorian aboriginals- use the single word 'marngrook' Lentisco 01:26, 25 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Blandowski's Australien in 142 Photographischen Abbildungen 1857 image of Marn Grook[edit]

Does anyone know the copyright status of the image. [3] Surely it would be fair use to upload it for the purposes of demonstrating Marn Grook. --Rulesfan 06:56, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The illustration itself is long since out of copyright. There is some debate about whether someone scanning and uploading an image has partial copyright of the scanned version, but even that seems dubious. See Copyright expiration in Australia, which says:
"Public institutions would like to maintain that it is their reproduction of a Public Domain work which has a copyright attached, since they cannot claim that the author/artist's copyright exists. The UK govt site is not clear about the status of faithful reproductions, mentioning that it may be possible to re-use a reproduction without permission, but also that the institution/photographer may claim copyright by virtue of the "skill and labour" which has gone into making the reproduction. However, the 1999 Bridgeman Art Library v. Corel Corp. ruling (in U.S. jurisdiction) runs counter to this view, and the institutions' stance has possibly not been tested in higher European or Australian courts. It is contestable whether these institutions would be able to demonstrate economic loss resulting from the republishing of one of their (low-resolution) reproductions in a non-profit/educational context on the web (e.g., on Wikipedia), since they themselves have freely and similarly published these very same images. A further argument against the practices of these institutions can be read here [5]."
"One view is that the National Library has probably not created a new work through the process of scanning the images and placing them online. So the images are still under public domain..."
In any case, doubt that the ABC are going to complain about it. Grant | Talk 03:59, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Seasonality[edit]

Hi all - I'm looking for any evidence that the game marn grook was played (or not) in particular seasons or on special occasions such as clan gatherings. The focus of my search here is mostly on seasonality, as understood and used by different Aboriginal groups in Australia, especially when such seasons don't align with the temperate-zone European pattern of four-seasons in a year (winter, autumn, spring, summer). (For example, in the tropics, the seasonal pattern may match the modern terminology of "the dry", "the build-up" and "the wet". Or it may name the fruiting or flowering of certain plants, or the running of certain fish in coastal waters, etc.) A secondary focus is on events that occurred seasonally, according to any locally used pattern. yoyo (talk) 02:45, 2 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Editing of original quotation[edit]

the quotation seem to be heverly edited to remove some of the context behind the original. for example the the term opossium from the original is replaced with possum and some sentences have been truncate without acknowledgement.

The adult natives were seldom without employment—their wants being the many—but they found time too for amusements. Some of their games were not unlike those which find favor amongst Europeans. The marn-grook, or game of ball, for instance, is thus described by the late Mr. Thomas. The men and boys joyfully assemble when this game is to be played. One makes a ball of opossum skin, or the like, of good size, somewhat elastic, but firm and strong. It is given to the foremost player or to some one of mark who is chosen to commence the game. He does not throw it as a white man might do, but drops it and at the same time kicks it with his foot, using the instep for that purpose. It is thrown high into the air, and there is a rush to secure it—such a rush as is seen commonly at foot-ball matches amongst our own people. The tallest men, and those who are able to spring to a great height, have the best chances in this game. Some of them will leap as high as five feet or more from the ground to catch the ball. The person who secures the ball kicks it again; and again & scramble ensues. This continues for hours, and the natives never seem to tire of the exercise.

I have seen the natives at Coranderrk amusing themselves in this manner very often, and their skill and activity were surprising. It is truly a native game. The ball, I believe, is often made of twine formed of the twisted hair of the opossum. It is elastic and light, and well suited to be kicked from the instep, as the natives use it.*

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