Talk:Lucy Letby

New Yorker Article

Not sure where it would fit but I feel like the New Yorker Article should be included somewhere on this page. 2A02:C7C:9B36:7D00:6C93:9AB4:A12:1523 (talk) 21:48, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Done before you posted. NebY (talk) 21:53, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

The article is currently unavailable. Has it been taken down? Archived here. Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 13:38, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

It's not available in the United Kingdom because of Letby's pending appeal/retrial; it's available in other countries. Mackensen (talk) 18:06, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

We currently have "Aviv also questioned the testimony of Dewi Evans ..." which may give the impression that this is new evidence. During Letby's trial, the jury was told that Evans' report in another case had been described as worthless etc, as described by Aviv, and her defence lawyer sought to have Evans' evidence struck out. This was reported by the Independent in August 2023: "Bid to exclude evidence of prosecution medical expert was refused by judge" (and possibly elsewhere). Should we first mention all this in our account of the trial and then in describing the New Yorker article say that Aviv also remarked on it, rather than presenting it only in our account of the New Yorker article as if it's the fruit of new investigation? NebY (talk) 09:24, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

References

Media restrictions?

Parts of this case are affected by some sort of media blackout in the UK. Here's a Tory MP discussing it (and a non RS source) - [1]. I'm not sure if that is discussed in the article; best I can see it's not mentioned anywhere.

If we can find a Reliable Source talking about it, it might be good to add a line somewhere as explanation. Something like In the UK, media organisations are ordinarily prohibited from discussing .... Soni (talk) 10:51, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

As this MSN report explains (I think rather better than David Davis MP) the New Yorker chose to restrict access for some UK readers. I don't think they've announced why, and though the Mirror says it's a matter of an anonymity order, it might instead be related to the coming retrial; at any rate, that's why reporting of the arguments presented to the Appeal Court judges is restricted:

The legal arguments cannot be reported by the media because a retrial over a remaining charge which the jury could not decide upon is due to take place in June.

[2]

Such restriction doesn't need a specific court order; judges might remind reporters that it's sub judice but they probably don't need to. I'm not convinced we should go into it; that the article's not directly available for some, as also why exactly Gill was blocked from Wikipedia, is drifting rather off topic. NebY (talk) 11:23, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

If it's just one article then I agree. I tried digging for better sources and could not find them, so was not confident if this is a one article restriction from New Yorker or something broader (say the govt restricting a bunch of articles). I think latter would have required at least a one line explanation of relevant context. Soni (talk) 11:39, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I see at the end of the Mirror article

A court order prohibits reporting of the identities of the surviving and dead children who were the subject of the allegations.

A restriction on naming the surviving children would be fairly standard protection of minors in court cases, probably made right at the start, and I remember we've had cases where a deceased child has been called eg "Baby P" until the end. Would the court protect living siblings too? As this CPS guidance mentions,

The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child requires that authorities should give primary consideration to the best interests of the child.

Growing up's hard enough without everyone knowing such things about you, so maybe anonymity is extended sometimes. However, the NY article doesn't seem to have named any children or parents. NebY (talk) 12:17, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

False statements in wiki article and I'm being blocked from editing

The first paragraph incorrectly states that she was present "whenever suspicious events took place", but this is incorrect, there were multiple instances where she was not present. I removed the sentence because it was uncited and because it was false, but it got reversed and now I'm locked from editing.

this wiki page is a disaster. I was also blocked from writing that the case is controversial and told I'm a conspiracy theorist. That doesn't make sense. The case is controversial. It's not like I'm saying she's innocent, which would be an opinion, and possibly a conspiracy theory. The case is controversial full stop. 128.237.82.8 (talk) 13:53, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

It's because you're not citing any sources 86.156.164.152 (talk) 14:04, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

There are no sources for her being present whenever there was a suspicious event, that's literally what I'm saying. If you have an issue with uncited sources why have you not edited that out? 128.237.82.8 (talk) 14:05, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

It wasn't me doing anything, i'm just trying to explain. There are no citations in the beginning section as the rules are you don't need them there 86.156.164.152 (talk) 14:20, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

the beginning section is where I said the case was controversial. And what you are saying I needed a citation for. So you are actually telling me that your own reasoning for my sentence being deleted is not true, because sentences in the beginning section don't need citations.

Also, I didn't delete that sentence about her shift simply because it's uncited. I also did that because it's not true. Do you see the issue here? There's some fishy going on with this page. 128.237.82.8 (talk) 14:22, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I have added a reliable source for 'her being present whenever there was a suspicious event". Theroadislong (talk) 14:28, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/20/lucy-letby-dozens-more-babies-police-believe-chester-liverpool

This article states that 30 babies had suspicious events but were not part of the criminal case at all. The opinions of the police are that she also killed them. Whether or not that's true, there are, according to the police, more suspicious events not coinciding with her shift than suspicious events coinciding with her shift. 128.237.82.8 (talk) 14:35, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

and that would be your original research. Theroadislong (talk) 14:52, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

First, the article protection means that a Wikipedia account is now needed to edit this article, and it has to be one that has existed a while and already done a number of edits (so creating one today wouldn't allow someone to start editing this article at once). It's not just you.

Second, Wikipedia wants sources - verifiability is key - and those sources have to be reliable. As WP:V puts it,

in a nutshell: Readers must be able to check that any of the information within Wikipedia articles is not just made up. This means all material must be attributable to reliable, published sources. Additionally, quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be supported by inline citations.

In this case, that means that a claim that the case is controversial needs a reliable source and to be WP:DUE too, even if to you it's a known fact, and any statement about why it's controversial also has to be based on a reliable source; it can't simply be your explanation.

Third, per MOS:LEAD, in a nutshell: The lead should identify the topic and summarize the body of the article with appropriate weight. Anything it's summarising should first be in the body of the article, and it should be supported by a source, normally an inline citation, there. As long as the lead follows that rule, the sources don't need to be repeated there and often aren't. NebY (talk) 14:55, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I think at the very least it should be stated in the first paragraph that this case is controversial and some of the brief reasons why. That shouldn't require sources. If you actually look at the top of this talk page, there is a giant warning that says The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute.

As for the suspiciousness of events and her shift, it's difficult to argue with that because suspicious is not well-defined. I actually shared the wrong article for my source, the police there claimed that she was on shift then, so for all we know they define as suspicious because of her shift. I am not arguing about this issue at this point. If the deaths were defined as suspicious in the case, then that would be a reason to leave it. 128.2.212.145 (talk) 15:03, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

You say "That shouldn't require sources" absolutely EVERYTHING here requires a source! Theroadislong (talk) 15:07, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

What are you talking about? The citations 12, 153, and 155 all support that the case is controversial and why. I'm saying no sources needed IN THE FIRST PARAGRAPH. WHERE I ORIGINALLY HAD THE EDIT 128.237.82.8 (talk) 15:15, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm not seeing any mention of controversy in ref 12 or 155? I can't read ref 153. Theroadislong (talk) 15:36, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

You're not seeing controversy in the articles titled "Did she do it?" And "How internet sleuths are already trying to prove Lucy Letby innocent"? And in 155 they quote from statistician dr. Gill who was involved in overturning the Lucia de berk case in the Netherlands, describing how the statistics used were flawed. In all three articles there is further description of *why* there is controversy, including the lack of conclusive descriptions of how any of the babies died.

I'm providing sources showing there's plenty of controversy. Are there any sources to the effect that the case is not controversial? 128.237.82.8 (talk) 18:29, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

You have misunderstood how Wikipedia works, if none of the sources actually say that the case is "controversial" it is just synthesis/original research to say so. Theroadislong (talk) 18:35, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

"Statistician Richard Gill, 72, is one of those backing a controversial claim that there are holes in Letby’s case and it should be retried. He doesn’t profess to know for certain that she is innocent, but argues there are issues with the way evidence was presented to the court."

From 153, already cited

Time for you to add it to the first paragraph I guess. I'm sure you will! 128.237.82.8 (talk) 18:43, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Richard D. Gill is certainly controversial and I will not be adding that for you. Theroadislong (talk) 18:49, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

could also write that there questions raised on if "British authorities may have ignored evidence in a rush to convict a neonatal nurse of killing seven babies".

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/nurse-baby-murders-new-yorker_n_6643d589e4b0f22a60f371e6 128.237.82.8 (talk) 18:47, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Combining sources

Our paragraphs about Children A and B now fold together different accounts, in particular the case presented by the prosecution as reported then or at the close of the case by multiple sources, and Rachel Aviv's account in the New Yorker. Is there some risk here of WP:SYNTH and/or WP:UNDUE weight? The effect seems to be that the single combined account presents the deaths as understandable without imputing deliberate harm (and thus Letby's guilt), in a way that only one of our sources (Aviv) does. Pinging @Moriwen who's been working on that section, but hoping for other input. NebY (talk) 16:25, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, it's tricky. I've been trying to focus on getting a straightforward chronological account, mostly; the article was really wordy with a lot of jumping around in time in a way that made it super hard to follow.

I recognize the SYNTH and UNDUE concerns, and I definitely welcome tweaks to those ends (not that anyone needs my permission lol); I'm trying to balance that with WP:CRITICISM concerns about segregating sections by POV. I personally don't think there's undue emphasis on the New Yorker article there -- it's cited only in the first half of one of three paragraphs in the section -- and I've been careful not to remove any of the content imputing Letby's guilt (e.g. the statement from the registrar); but obviously it's a delicate balancing act.— Moriwen (talk) 17:00, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Delicate indeed, and it was hard to follow. I calculate more weight given to Aviv than you do, four out of seven sentences sourced to her, italicised here (hope you're not reading this with an app that hides such formatting):

Children A and B were born prematurely at thirty-one weeks gestation to a mother with a rare clotting disorder. On 8 June 2015, doctors twice misplaced Child A's umbilical catheter, resulting in the infant going several hours without receiving fluids. The infant was assigned to Letby when she clocked in for her night shift; the pediatric registrar clocked off half an hour later. A junior doctor placed a longline in Child A, and twenty minutes later, the infant's condition began rapidly deteriorating. Another nurse later reported seeing Letby standing over the incubator, and becoming involved when she realized the infant was not improving. Letby called the doctor, who removed the longline, concerned that he had placed it too close to the infant's heart. Child A died within half an hour.

Indeed, looking at it now, it's clear how much it's now making the case that Letby was not to blame. NebY (talk) 17:25, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Ah, you're right, I missed that last sentence in my count. I do think that it's worth considering it in the context of the next two paragraphs of the section:

> The twins' parents spent the next day in the nursery with Child B, until they were persuaded to go and rest. After their departure, and 25 minutes after a feeding by Letby, Child B collapsed and had to be resuscitated. Tests later showed she had loops of gas-filled bowel. Attending doctors reported an unusual blue-and-white mottling on the skin of both infants after their collapses. This symptom re-occurred in other infants which were believed to have been intentionally injected with air.

> The paediatric registrar later described Child A's death as a "big surprise" and "completely out of the blue and very upsetting. [He] showed no signs of any problems throughout the day. He was handling well. I had no concerns at all for him or his twin sister". The day after Child A's death, Letby searched for his parents on Facebook.

Overall, I don't think that this makes the case that Letby was not to blame; it seems like a straightforward account of the facts as we know them, followed by an analysis which mostly points fingers at Letby. I'm not sure how to address this particular concern without just, like, removing cited facts from the article because they might seem too exculpatory, which seems obviously silly. But if you have an idea that would be awesome. — Moriwen (talk) 17:30, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Rewriting the children segments

Reading through this article, it seems that the segments discussing the cases of each individual child are basically just transcribing the prosecution's arguments - not the worst thing, but if you want to write it that way you should probably add the defense's rebuttal as well. Of course that makes for a pretty bad flow for that segment overall. IMO these segments should be completely nuked and rewritten. I would do it, but I am 95% sure it would spark an edit war as a fair amount of active editors would simply interpret that as "oh you're just biased in her favor". Any consensus on rewriting them? Jspace727 (talk) 17:04, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Definitely agree they need rewriting, especially since a lot of the content occurs twice (once in the timeline, once in the trial section). A lot of the phrasing is also just kind of awkward right now. I've been hesitant for similar reasons but would absolutely support a major rewrite.— Moriwen (talk) 17:13, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

That's not a bad idea. Are we maybe diving too deep? Is the only way to write with WP:NPOV, neither emphasising awfulness or highlighting alternative narratives, to include so much meticulous detail of each death? NebY (talk) 17:45, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

They're individually definitely written from a "look how evil that woman is she's 100% guilty" point of view which is probably something we don't want on this page especially given the concerns raised and the fact that there are still legal aspects related to the ongoing that have the potential to over turn the case. Granted they are originally sourced from the prosecution, so of course they are written that way. The larger issue is they describe medical cases yet are hideously light or in a lot of cases just flat out wrong on the medical parts. Some objectivity and context on the described afflictions are really badly needed. A bigger issue is most likely the fact that the prosecution's argument tracing Letby to the deaths is structured in a way to leave out anything in the cases that doesn't support their arguments, meaning it might be pretty hard to find an objective and entire accounting of each child's case.Jspace727 (talk) 18:01, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

the UK has blocked articles that presented information that would suggest doubt, so there is an inherent bias in what is even readily available to cite.

The New Yorker article is a recent example. A major publication by a reputable investigative journalist and people in the UK aren't even allowed to read it. 128.237.82.8 (talk) 18:33, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, it felt close to being essentially primary sources, even though technically we are quoting secondary sources which all but state the same thing the primary source's (prosecution) argument. The entire segments is filled with this POV, including things like "She did X, then looked up the children on phone". It's implying a correlation there, and I'm not convinced that's a reasonable correlation, forget the main one.

I would personally nuke the entire Timeline section, and let someone start from scratch if they want to write a summarised NPOV way of it. Worst case we have no timeline section, and the article is still better off. It's too overly detailed as well Soni (talk) 21:04, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

@Moriwen @NebY Would you be okay with that? I'd like to establish some quick consensus before we remove chunks, just in case. Soni (talk) 21:06, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Good by me.— Moriwen (talk) 21:11, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

...and I'd personally suggest getting big chunks of the "2023 trial" section as well, which imo has the same issues.— Moriwen (talk) 21:12, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. I think the trial section needs to basically take a hard pass or three where we split it into sections (Probably as simple as "Every day of trial in a new heading") and then strip most of the overly detailed stuff from the trial. It'll take slightly more work than just removing an entire section at once though. Soni (talk) 21:18, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, that all sounds right to me. Enormous appreciation for you tackling this head-on.— Moriwen (talk) 21:19, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I am, yes. I just tried skipping that section while skimming the article; it's still rather large and indigestible, but we lose a big NPOV problem and don't lose anything essential to a BLP. On size, BTW, Prosezize is reporting 8619 words of text, which is uncomfortably large per WP:SIZERULE's rule-of-thumb, all for a subject who's notable for one thing only. NebY (talk) 21:24, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

• Done. Anyone who wants to re-add info from the timeline can use the diff. Now for the less easy bit, doing the same for the trial. Soni (talk) 21:27, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you; even the TOC looks better. "Every day of trial in a new heading" might break down fast though, given it ran from 10 October 2022 to 21 August 2023. NebY (talk) 21:34, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah I am starting to think it might be good to split that section by trial (general details about trial) - evidence (main timeline, much trimmed) - evidence inside house (and diary/notes, but much much more summarised) - defence arguments.

  I'm doing small passes, removing one line or two at a time which feel the least relevant. Mostly I think a good rule of thumb would be "anything we can source only from 'Timeline of X' style articles, we should remove". There should be more news articles that summarise the chunk of this timeline and still give us the details on all the murders; whereas things like "She checked them on facebook the next day" and "She posted on social media about returning. The next day baby died" seems uniquely overly detailed in a way only a timeline news article would have. Soni (talk) 22:00, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Overly represented sources

I notice that some sources are cited way more than the others. Panorama documentary (31 citations), The Times article (15), The Nurse who killed documentary (12), Sky news (9)

While there's no specific problem with overciting one RS, we should try and find alternate sources that support the same text. If we cannot find them, it'd be a good indicator that the info is overly detailed or we're relying too much on few sources. This either adds different sources to the article, or cleans up the most overly in depth bits. Soni (talk) 05:40, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Lucia de Berk

Should Lucia de Berk be added to the See Also section? The cases seem strikingly similar. Their occupation, the controversial use of statistical evidence in the trial, the context of their diary entries. 2A00:23C6:AE87:3401:5C92:1AA5:C62D:5C92 (talk) 07:16, 16 May 2024 (UTC)