Talk:Luciano Pavarotti/Archive 1

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Number Changes

Hi, Arnie:

You asked: "(please discuss number changes on talk page)

Would appreciate your elaborating what numbers you are referring to. Thanks--Tom

Sure, a user changed the number of high tenor Cs that Pavarotti had sung (in China) from 9 to 12. I was just asking for a source for that change. Regards Arniep 02:45, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi Matt, I am curious about your rationale behind your recent edit. In what way was that phrase "geographical bias"? My understanding was that it was an outdoor concert at the base of the Eiffel Tower. Thanks. -- Viajero 11:14, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The answer is simple. By saying "here" in reference to Paris, this necessarily connotes that the reader must also be in Paris. That's a pointless geographic bias. I'm not in Paris, nor are the vast majority of Wiki readers, so it's inaccurate to call it "here".Matt gies 19:12, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I've put mention of the Eiffel Tower back. If that's where the concert was, we may as well say so. --Camembert

That seems reasonable. I should have just edited out the "here" part.Matt gies 19:54, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Ferreous, or Iron technique

can someone give a source for this "technique", I think someone has read in a review somewhere lirico di ferro, which just means an iron (strong, powerful) technique not a special operatic technique to obtain high registers as was seemed to be indicated in the original wording. Arnie587 22:55, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

How he did it?

Paragraph 1: The Italian tenor Luciano Pavarotti (born October 12, 1935), is one of the most famous living singers, not only in the world of opera, but across all genres.
Paragraph 2: His major breakthrough in the United States came on February 17, 1972, ...

I guess there has to be something between this paragraph and that paragraph, such as who trained him and how he did it. -- Toytoy 09:57, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Eisteddfod

this article is incomplete. while i dont have any specifics, i know that he went to the eisteddfod at llangollen in his early career, and he came here on his tour i think. see the llangollen eisteddfod page - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Eisteddfod —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.117.62 (talk • contribs) 19:42, 1 May 2006

As this article is about his career as a solo tenor, his appearance at Eisteddfod as a member of a choir is not really notable. However, if someone disagrees, then-Thank you for your suggestion! When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make whatever changes you feel are needed. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the Edit this page link at the top. You don't even need to log in! (Although there are some reasons why you might like to…) The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. --Wine Guy Talk 20:30, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
he was a great guy

Opera Beginners Comparisons

While most opera buffs know all great tenors and operas, most persons on earth grew up where no opera was available and so are beginners. And learn from hearing on TV a great tenor as Pavaroti. They later hear Enrico Caruso and dont understand the difference of a dramatic tenor as Caruso vs Pavaroti whose voice then sounds thin. Isnt this like apples and oranges, Pavaroti is as great with simply a different kind of voice ?

I don’t know about others but from hearing we can easily tell the difference between lyrical tenor and dramatic tenor. Pavarotti is a lyrical tenor while Domingo is a dramatic tenor (tenor drammatico). I believe Pavarotti is Tenore (lirico) spinto.
There are arias that I love to hear when Pavarotti sings them, and there are arias that I think Domingo can do better. If you want to know the different is to listen to the same aria by these 2 tenors, then you can tell. Ok, why not you try “Nessun Dorma” by Pavarotti and Domingo, I believe you can tell right away. (As for "Nessun Dorma", Pavarotti is the best. He is the king of high C by the way) I actually like Domingo and Caruso better (overall), which means I like tenor drammatico more than lirico. This is just my opinion. It doesnt mean Pavarotti is not good to me but, it is just my preference. Why not you buy "Moments of Passion" by Placido Domingo, then you tell me how great his voice is!
To hear the difference, please go to http://www.operamania.com/voices-tenor.htm - Jay 13:47, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Nessun Dorma as World Cup theme

The article states that Nessun Dorma was the theme of the 1990 FIFA World Cup but it was only the theme to the BBC coverage of it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 145.229.156.40 (talk) 11:42, 29 December 2006 (UTC).

I think this is correct - the article is misleading (to put it mildly) when it says "became the theme song of the 1990 FIFA World Cup in Italy". I think this may be someone confusing its undoubtedly huge impact in the UK with it having some official FIFA status. I propose to change it, but if you can prove otherwise please do and cite a ref. By the same token, I think this is wrong: "Pavarotti's pivotal step in becoming an internationally known celebrity occurred in 1990 ... World Cup ..." No, I don;t think so - I believe this is an Anglocentric error. He was plenty well-known before then, which is probably why the Beeb got him to do it. It certainly had an impact in the UK but without supporting evidence I cannot see how it was necessarily pivotal and international other than along the Italy-UK axis. I may try and rewrite it. If I an wrong please correct it, but not without sources. 138.37.199.206 07:31, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Ah, I can't fix it, it's locked to anons and I do not want an account. I would be grateful if someone with an account might want to look at these two issues and consider a change. I was going to say something like: "An important step in Pavarotti's becoming better-known internationally occurred in 1990 when his rendition of Giacomo Puccini's aria, "Nessun Dorma" from Turandot, became the theme song of the BBC TV coverage of the 1990 FIFA World Cup in Italy." And even that may be over the top. Really, it's "this is one reason why so many people in the UK knew about him more than other tenors", basically. Oh well. 138.37.199.206 07:36, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
I have changed it. - Jay 16:28, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

____________________________

Does anyone know what Pavarotti song is being played during Stimpy's nightmare in the episode Insomniac Ren/My Shiny Friend for Ren & Stimpy?

A bit off topic "Ti Adoro

I just bought Ti Adoro, wow.. for the frst time I thought I was listening to Frank Sinatra songs in opera voice. Yea.. it is so “operatic pop” like what most people said, it is great tho`. I enjoyed it.. nice songs to listen! - Jay 13:32, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


I've heard from my sources that Pavarotti is, or is very close to, dying in the next few hours, anyone else heard anything? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.80.220.44 (talk) 19:03, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Discography

Why is there no discography here??? Matias 20:58, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


Death

His death is being reported by the Associated Press. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.193.99.4 (talk) 04:46, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I think it's safe to put it up now. Now, in oversea death cases, is the DOD Sept.5 or 6(since it's still 5th where I am now) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.84.142.185 (talk) 04:56, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Date of death would be according to the date of his location at the time. IN this case, since it is Italy, Sept. 6. Jeffpw 05:04, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


ROME (AP) -- Luciano Pavarotti, whose vibrant high C's and ebullient showmanship made him one the most beloved tenors, has died, his manager told The Associated Press. He was 71.


http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/P/PAVAROTTI?SITE=CTNHR&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.82.78.103 (talk) 05:01, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

It's the date where they were when they died. 24.38.17.124 05:05, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


Just wondering, but it is necessary to put his COD in the very first paragraph? I always assumed the first paragraph was used to describe why the person is being written about to begin with. I haven't changed it in case someone else thinks it makes sense to keep it there. Pinkadelica 05:22, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Il Dio Lo benedice -- Fighting for Justice 05:35, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
This is pretty new news, so don't expect this article to be entirely perfect for a few days, after people collect more information and can organize it better. -D14BL0 06:27, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't see the justification for blanking this page because of that. BrokenSphereMsg me 05:36, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Rest in Peace, Joseph A. Spadaro 06:31, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

resto nella pace Fighting for Justice 07:01, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
The ticker at the wonderful Faux News just reported that he is recovering at his home in Modena. --Kalmia 06:58, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
WP:NPOV, if you please... Bullzeye (Ring for Service) 07:05, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Opera has lost someone great in our times. May he rest in peace, god bless. - Jay 07:13, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

there's a sentence under the 2000's heading stating he was diagnosed, and also that he has died. this is redundant and should be removed, as there is a whole section relating to this further down the page. can someone remove it? i'm at work and don't sign in here. (it's a nationwide company and internet network, and this ip has been banned before, so i don't want tarnished with other people's vandalism.) thanks 194.221.133.211 10:30, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Done, and thanks for pointing it out. Jeffpw 10:54, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
This is a sad day, indeed. Rest in peace. 208.101.155.204 20:43, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
I have nothing factual to add. Just my sadness and my tribute to a great singer and a good man. Addio Luciano. Al alba vincerò. --83.44.165.4 23:54, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


I had just woken up at exactly 5:02 am. What are the odds? I turned on the tv and learned about his death. My violin teacher was so shocked that he screwed up in teaching me. I am sad myself and I also would like to add my sadness and tribute to this truly awe inspiring man. Theclassicalman 00:33, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


my condolences to his family and to everyone who admired the guy.he'll be missed. Sorry about breaking the wiki rules, but there isnt a condolence page on his official website. 82.163.147.222 00:58, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

He had a very beautiful voice. Goodbye Luciano. -Yancyfry 02:55, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

BLP

Luciano Pavarotti is no longer living and therefore no longer needs to be listed under "biographies of living persons". I have changed the tag accordingly. -Ich (talk) 05:30, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


Humanitarian work

We are having a bit of an edit war over whether the fact that he did some humanitarian work should be in the introduction. I say no, because the intro is only for major parts of the subject's life, and Pavarotti is remembered much, much more for his singing than anything else he may have done. I have much respect for Pavarotti and am very sad about his death, but I don't see how he has done a particularly large amount of humanitarian work compared to many other celebrities. Academic Challenger 07:08, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Lead

I had expanded the lead to include mention of his humanitarian work, since the lead seemed skeletal to me, but Academic Challenger has reverted me twice. It seems pertinent to me, since there are three separate humanitarian issues mentioned in the article (land mines, refugees and the concerts he gave to raise money for the UN). Since I don't want to engage in an edit war, perhaps somebody else can take a look and see if they can improve it. Apparently my contributions here are not needed. Jeffpw 07:10, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I can see that you are a very good contributor, and don't take my disagreement personally. We are probably all somewhat emotional because of his death. But I just don't think that the humanitarian work is the right thing to expand the lead with. Academic Challenger 07:18, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

It's a notable aspect of his biography and the article, and deserves to be in the lead. —Viriditas | Talk 08:42, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

One of the first things that comes to mind when I think of Pavarotti, personally, is the Pavarotti and Friends series of concerts, which falls under his humanitarian efforts, as I recall. Kind of like Jerry Lewis, who was an entertainer first and foremost, but has done significant work to try and raise funds for causes he finds important, as well. Kaji sensei 07:41, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I have now expanded the Humanitarian work section significantly, and I think it cannot be disputed that it now belongs in the lead as a partial sentence mention. Jeffpw 08:14, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Note that the Pavarotti's Beirut 1999 performance was entirely to benefit local charities in that war-torn country. Only a humanitarian would risk personal safety without a profit motive.ADArroligaada —Preceding unsigned comment added by ADArroliga (talk • contribs) 22:22, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Bizarre Hyde Park assertion

At the moment, the article contains this gem: "his televised concert in London's Hyde Park being the first concert in the history of the park featuring classical music". Erm - how likely is that? We are saying, then, are we, that although the first royal to own the park was Henry VIII and although it's clearly had exhibitions and celebrations and G*d knows what else going on there all down the centuries, never a note of classical music was performed there till the 1990s? I feel very confident in asserting that this is balderdash. If you agree please take out the stupid statement, and if you know I am wrong, all you need to do is to cite a verifiable source to justify keeping it in. This is stupid enough to *almost* make me want an account again so I can change it. But not quite. :) So I appeal to a conscientious editor reading this to Do The Right Thang and remove it before it confuses another 47 million schoolchildren. 138.37.199.206 07:44, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


Done. Academic Challenger 08:00, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I heared it was the first time an opera was performed there. I don't know if that's true either. – b_jonas 09:04, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Even that is fairly unlikely, I'd say - probably just the first time that one individual could remember. Leave it out unless we can get the owner to confirm it. Guy (Help!) 20:22, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

its not bizarre - i attended that 1990 concert and yes, Hyde park never had a classical performance before that date. Hyde Park is very rarely used as a concert venue in London. Having a Hyde Park concert is an exception rather than the rule. 82.163.147.222 01:03, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Trivia section

I've removed the trivia section entirely. If anyone thinks it is important enough to include, then please work it into the body of the article. Trivia follows. —Viriditas | Talk 08:25, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Pavarotti was a fan of Turin-based football club Juventus. As part of the South Bank Show documentary on Pavarotti, he can be seen watching the 2003 UEFA Champions League Final between AC Milan and Juventus with friends. He talks about his love of Juventus, and is visibly upset when Milan wins on penalties.
  • In the television programme Mad About You, Pavarotti sang to the Buchman family in their own living room.
  • In the claymation television series Rex the Runt, one of the characters, Vince, suffered from "Random Pavarotti Syndrome" which would cause him to suddenly burst out in operatic singing at inopportune times.

Gap in info

There seems to be a gap between the "Early Life" and "Career" sections...how was he discovered and hired to do the work for the opera? --MoRsE 08:45, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Quote

I wish somebody will insert this quote of Big Luciano:

I think a life in music is a life beautifully spent and this is what I have devoted my life to.

— Luciano Pavarotti, from Official Web Site in the day of his death.

--87.17.8.134 09:03, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

You can browse this category for a good template. —Viriditas | Talk 11:26, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
I removed it from before the lead paragraph because it's not appropriate there. You may be able to reintegrate it elsewhere in the article, however. Angus Lepper(T, C, D) 17:12, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

the italian version would be more appropriate:

"Pensho che una vita per la musica sia una vita spesa bene ed e a questo che mi son dedicato"

there's a rhythm and pace to the italian that is pure pavarotti. it loses its impact somewhat when said in English.

82.163.147.222 01:07, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

It is a beautiful quote, and I added it into the "Career" section. Rest in Peace, Maestro. (Joseph A. Spadaro 01:09, 9 September 2007 (UTC))
And yet, it's up at the top of the page... any reason? (user hezekiah957, not logged in) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.151.54.103 (talk) 04:33, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Pavarotti Pic

The picture tagline says its him in 2003, but you can very well tell its a wax figure. So its not him in 2003. :-P —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.0.198.130 (talk) 11:43, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps a photo of the real Pavarotti would be better than a photo of his wax model? Jcspurrell 12:06, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I have added a new image. It is non-free but properly claimed as fair use and satisfies Wikipedia's Non-free content criteria -- Chris B • talk • contribs 12:59, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Thank you very much, Chris. I understand the policy about copyright, though I don't agree with it. And I thought it a moment of supreme bad taste that somebody had the only pic we had deleted today as a possible copyright violation. Just seems like they could have waited a few days, knowing how many people would be coming to read the article. Jeffpw 14:00, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

The waxwork picture is dire 86.40.197.255 13:57, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Image:Pavarotti as Rodolfo.jpg

Since the images in this article changed several times in the last 24 hours, I would like to notify users of the discussion about the deletion of one image: Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion/2007 September 6#Image:Pavarotti as Rodolfo.jpg. – Ilse@ 11:09, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Dupe section

Someone just added another death section. I've added it below if anyone wants to add it to the lead or find sources for the flag claim, if it is necessary to add that back. —Viriditas | Talk 11:59, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Luciano Pavarotti died at his home in the northern Italian city of Modena on 6th September 2007.Pavarotti had cancer surgery in July 2006 in New York, five months after his last performance. He had not made any public appearances since then.He underwent five bouts of chemotherapy in the past year, and was admitted to hospital with a fever on 8 August. He was released two weeks later following diagnostic tests. The Vienna State Opera raised a black flag in mourning of his death.
Merged raising of flag with source. —Viriditas | Talk 12:53, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Please add the link to Ido and Occitan wiki articles

[io:Luciano Pavarotti] [oc:Luciano Pavarotti]. Thank you Joao Xavier 12:45, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Done. —Viriditas | Talk 12:54, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

His voice

Perhaps someone should add a section discussing his voice on a technical level as it is the case for many others singers on Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.57.194.96 (talk) 13:25, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

spelling correction

I hope I'm doing this the right way, as I'm a bit of a novice, but as this page is not able to be edited I can't just make the correction myself. The article contains the assertion that LP developed nodules on his "vocal chords". It's a common spelling error, arising from the fact that this is about music, but the correct spelling is, of course, "vocal cords". Could someone please correct it?

AB84.178.171.239 21:12, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Done. Linked to the vocal folds article. --Kjoonlee 21:51, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Many thanks. AB84.178.164.25 13:01, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Infobox

So is an infobox suppose to appear on this page or not? Remember 21:20, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

If you are going to remove or add an infobox could you please state your reasons here as well as in the edit summary so this constant battle does not continue. Remember 12:48, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
The reason of deletion has been made clear by me and others through the remark "Wikipedia:WikiProject_Opera#Infoboxes" from before 6 Sept 07. It was not an issue until recently. I am still "recovering" for losing such a great tenor and hopefully me and other fellow friends from Wikipedia:WikiProject Opera do not have to struggle with edit warring at this point of time. I am still in shocked with his departure, this is so really sad, no words can explain how I feel at this moment. - Jay 13:02, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

For those who join this page an are unaware of the WikiProject Opera's standpoint on infoboxes, they have stated the following as their current policy. Remember 13:38, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


New infoboxes: We hope all new infoboxes will be proposed and discussed on the project talk page before being added to individual pages. We deplore the use of generic infoboxes that have not been designed with opera in mind, and contain factual errors and ambiguities. Remember: factual accuracy is essential, infoboxes aren't.

This note can be added to pages:
<!-- please do not add an infobox, per [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Opera#Infoboxes]]-->

Please note: We're all a bit tired of discussing this issue right now, so before you bring it up, you really might like to read all of the following archives: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] (scroll down) [10] (scroll down) [11] . Ideally, it would be best not to raise the topic again for at least another six months (date of writing: June, 2007). This really has been hashed out ad nauseam, and there are good arguments for the removal of infoboxes when they are inappropriate. Thank you!

His influences...?

How absolutely ridiculous to not include Giuseppe Di Stefano, undoubtedly Pavarotti's biggest influence, in the list of his influences. Even Mario Lanza was one as well, but the two main ones were defiantly Di Stefano and Beniamino Gigli over others.NewYork1956 07:35, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestion! When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. —Viriditas | Talk 07:38, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Terminal illness

I hope that after a suitable interval we can severely edit the day-by-day account of Pavarotti's terminal illness prior to his death. The account is "newsy" and unencyclopedic. I am aware that the migration of Wikinews-type content to Wikipedia is a complex issue and there are strong feelings on both sides, but from a long-term point of view the most important facts in this case are that Pavarotti was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, that he fought back against his illness, and that he died from it. Day-by-day facts above and beyond these three could be seen as superfluous.Bigturtle 15:44, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree absolutely.Viva-Verdi 16:52, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Singing with The Spice Girls

Does anyone have full details of when Mr. Pavarotti sung with the Spice Girls around the time of Ms. Halliwell's departure from the group? I know he picked up for her on a few incidences, but not sure how many. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.191.33.72 (talk) 19:44, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

A Beirut Night

A Beirut Night' When few performers were willing to appear in Beirut, Lebanon for safety reasons, Maestro Pavarotti agreed to a solo appearance scheduled for June 12, 1999. This was an rare chance in Lebanon which saw few world famous stars in those post-war torn years, and his wonderful contribution brought opera to many who had never had the opportunity to see a live opera performed. This was the first ever concert performed by Pavarotti in an Arab country, and all proceeds were donated to benefit charities in Lebanon. As a condition to performing, the government of Lebanon had to make this promise--during the scheduled time of the concert, all flights in or out of the nearby Beirut International Airport (BIA) were to be suspended because the flight pattern was directly overhead of the Cite Sportive stadium venue, and Pavarotti, rightly, would not wish to strain his voice competing with the loud jet engines. As the government controlled the airport, the condition was promised and was much publicized in the media. But half-way through Pavarotti amazing performance, the stadium shook and his voice was drowned by the fly-over of a jumbo jet landing at the BIA. The entire audience in the packed stadium drew a breath in anticipation of how he would react. Pavorotti was a true professional and gentlemen, and waited for the jet landing unfazed, and with the quiet, began again to give an excellent show. It was a night unequal to any other, but many wondered what would become of the air-traffic controller who gave that permission for the unscheduled landing of the jet in disobedience of the government edict. At that time in that country, anything could happen, as I saw in Beirut that night. ````ada

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Luciano_Pavarotti"

http://www.webcitation.org/5RhnoWsBm

http://www.webcitation.org/5RhnoWsBm image about to be idiotically deleted. Cryptographic hash 17:23, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Lead

I replaced the middle paragraph I'd added to the lead, which was aimed to be more consistent with WP:LEAD. I'm not sure if there's more suitable material, but 3-4 paragraphs seems appropriate, while that one broadly covers his ascendancy as an opera singer (the next deals with his pop stardom). I liked the copy edits though. Mackan79 17:30, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Wax image confusion

Please can people stop edit warring over whether the Stade Velodrome image is a waxwork model. It seems that the original photo of a waxwork in the Venetian Hotel in Las Vegas, got overwritten with the photograph of the Stade Velodrome performance in France! This is causing an immense amount of confusion! Can anyone sort this out? Carcharoth 08:17, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

From what I can work out:

  • [12]: The original waxwork image got deleted on Wikipedia at 00:47 on 7 September 2007 with the comment "at Commons".
  • [13]: The Commons deletion log history of the waxwork model shows lots of deletion and undeletion as a derivative work, with the final deletion at 11:21, 8 September 2007.
  • The confusion really started when the Stade Velodrome image got uploaded on Commons with the same name as the previous waxwork image, on 14:40, 8 September 2007 (see the image log linked above).
  • [14]: The original Stade Velodrome performance photograph (commons:Image:Luciano Pavarotti 15.06.02.jpg) got deleted at 22:50 8 September 2007, on Commons, because it was a duplicate of the newly uploaded picture. Surely the later picture should be deleted and the earlier one kept?
  • The upshot of this is that Wax museum on Wikipedia, which was using the waxwork museum image, for some time showed (link to old version) the picture of Pavarotti performing at the Stade Velodrome, with the image caption claiming this is a waxwork in the Venetian Hotel in Las Vagas.

This is a complete balls-up, to put it mildly. The full timeline of what happened will be a lesson in how not to handle this sort of thing. But for now, can anyone suggest the best way to fix this so that talk page and deletion discussions refer to the correct pictures? At the moment, Image talk:Pavarotti.jpg and the IfD discussion here make no sense because of this Commons deletion/re-uploading/Wikipedia deletion fiasco. The system most definitely failed here, in multiple ways. Carcharoth 10:16, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

More at User:Carcharoth/Luciano Pavarotti images confusion. Carcharoth 13:08, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Wrong date in image caption

When the image of the live performance was added, the year was given as 2001. Given the image page information (see Image:Luciano Pavarotti 15.06.02 cropped.jpg) and this source, I'm changing the date to 15 June 2002. Carcharoth 17:31, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

My fault. In fact it was myself who wrote the image page info too, I made the mistake while copying it. jynus 03:58, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Quote

Could we please remove the quote at the beginning of the article? It is completely pathetic and I have never seen something like it in any other articles. This is an encyclopedia, people, not a condolence book. -- Imladros 20:37, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Done and done. --RandomOrca2 18:57, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Protection requested

With today being his birthday, all the nutters seem to be dropping by to vandalise the article. I requested semi-protection until at least tomorrow. Jeffpw 09:22, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

survived or successed?

in the death section, should pavarotti be survived by four daughters, successed by four daughters or something else? 172.188.241.179 15:43, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Survived is the correct English terminology. Jeffpw 15:50, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Goal for article

I think that this article needs to be a featured article on Sept 6, 2008 to mark the 1 year anniversary of his death. I think that it should be the goal of this article to get it up to that standard some time soon. What do you think? --Μ79_Šp€çíá∫횆tell me about it 23:39, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

As the last performance of Pavarotti is mentioned in the article: march 2004. But he performed also in the concert of Zucchero at May 6th, 2004. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zucchero, album Zu & Co. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.246.50.130 (talk) 19:18, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

GA first

Look at other articles and copy them. I have put "Nessun Dorma" in, but it needs much more, like an infobox. There are lots of paragraphs without in-line references. --andreasegde 21:47, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

GA Review

GA review (see here for criteria)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:

Comments:

  1. All one-two sentence paragraphs must either be expanded or combined as they cannot stand alone. There are absolutely far too many of these to make the prose flow well.
  2. The article needs an infobox. This is not essential for GA, but I highly recommend if you intend to get this up to FA class. Yes, I have read Wikipedia:WikiProject_Opera#Infoboxes. The consensus seems to be not that an infobox should not be included, but rather that it should be a well-constructed infobox as opposed to a generic one. Again, I'm not holding this against the article for GA status, so don't complain about this comment, just a friendly tip if you plan on making this featured.
  3. "He was born in Modena to a family of a baker with 'a good tenor voice'" (Lead) I'm assuming that "a good tenor voice" is a direct quote of some sort, which is not acceptable in the lead per WP:LEAD. Also, the fact that the father had "a good tenor voice" is not mentioned in the body of the article, another violation of WP:LEAD.
  4. I would recommend toning down some of the POV in the lead. Yes, Pavarotti was great, but the lead should be as objective of a summary as possible.
  5. One of the biggest failing points of this article is the lack of citations. It would be extremely tedious to list every instance of missing citations, but suffice to say that are numerous paragraphs throughout the article that are lacking citations, from his early life on. For example, 90% of "1980s–1990s" is uncited.
  6. Similar problems with neutrality, and not just in the lead. For example, in the early life section: "After what appears to have been a normal childhood with a typical interest in sports..." What makes this type of childhood "normal" or an interest in sports "typical?" Is every child from the 1930s who didn't have an interest in sports atypical? This is one of the more subtle neutrality violations, but there are more obvious ones as well. For example, under the career section, it is written "He scored another major triumph..." which is far too flowery and POV for a statement that could be backed up more objectively. There's no objective evidence (reviews, sales etc. etc.) in that paragraph to support the statement. Of course, there are many other examples, especially in the lead and, given the significant lack of citations in this article, it is an even more serious problem than it would usually be.

These are just the most pressing concerns. Usually, when a review encounters a small number of problems, it is put on hold to allow for these changes to be made. In this case, however, I feel that this article would benefit from time spent improving the neutrality and prose of the article (so that it isn't so choppy) and having perhaps a project-specific peer review before renomination. That and, of course, the citation issue needs to be dealt with. I noticed that there seems to be a desire to get this featured by the anniversary of his death, a very realistic goal. It will require, however, that this article not be rushed, that everything be properly cited, that editors step outside of his greatness and try to write neutrally about him and that the prose conform to encyclopedic standards. For these reasons, I am failing the article. Thank you for your work thus far. Cheers, CP 05:33, 7 November 2007 (UTC)


Early life, occupation

The article is contradictory: was he a professional goal-keeper, or did he only have an "interest" in football, then became a teacher? Was he in fact ever a professional player? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.255.239.217 (talk) 20:45, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Debt?

Why doesn't this article mention he died 25 million in debt? the part on his will is misleading. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.118.127.126 (talk) 23:54, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Constant replacement of info box by 88.111.201.28 on this article

I have placed the following on this person's page:

You should understand that editing on Wikipedia is a matter of consensus amongst editors. In addition, various "projects" - groups of editors who join together to write and edit articles on a topic - have reached a consensus on what is appropriate for a particular subject area.
In this case it is the Wiki opera Project group which has determined that adding these boxes is not appropriate. See Wikipedia:WikiProject Opera#Infoboxes for details on this policy.
Bottom line for you: a majority of editors DO NOT SUPPORT ADDING THE BOXES and the majroity rules on Wikipedia.
If you wish to discuss this before taking further action, do so on the DISCUSSION PAGE of each article.
If you continue to revert, your edits will be regarded as vandalism and a moderator could ban you from editing Viva-Verdi (talk) 17:50, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I suggest that as many editors as possible add their agreement to removing the info box so that it is clear to this anon. editor that he/she is overuled.Viva-Verdi (talk) 17:50, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

REMOVE INFO BOX

Ok, that's QUITE ENOUGH. The Opera wikiproject does NOT have a veto on whether infoboxes should be placed into opera-related persons' articles and should NOT state that as a fact. Also suggesting that the wikiproject's views are POLICY is quite wrong - a wikiproject does NOT have any right to create a POLICY on articles relating to it and should NOT imply that - a wikiproject can only set GUIDELINES. It may be that the majority of opera wikiproject members oppose placing generic infoboxes in opera related articles but that does NOT translate to "a majority of editors".
A wikiproject is a way of bringing editors with similar interests together to improve articles, it's not appropiate to use a wikiproject as a way of stifling dissenting edits on articles. An edit dispute is NOT vandalism. Suggesting that because an editor is editing against a wikiprojects guidelines they are guilty of vandalism and in danger of being banned is NOT correct. The situation would be an EDITING or CONTENT dispute, but not VANDALISM.
I strongly suggest that rather than threatening editors that disagree with you or make edits that go against the wikiproject's guidelines that you attempt to engage with them in a friendly manner and reach a proper consensus or compromise with them. The entire above section is not in any way, shape or form the correct way to go about this. Suggesting that other editors gang up on the anon is particulary nauseating. I suggest you read WP:BITE and WP:CIVIL for a start, not to mention our guidelines and suggestions on resolving disputes. Exxolon (talk) 21:47, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Wikiprojects are widely intended for coordination and cannot dictate policy or content, last I heard. I particularly don't see how placing this infobox could be considered vandalism under the strict definitions provided in WP:VAND -- user(s) placing the infobox are clearly trying to improve article(s), regardless of whether doing so is controversial. This edit warring strikes me as disruptive, either adding or removing the box, and I'd prefer some more attempts to develop consensus for or against it. – Luna Santin (talk) 22:51, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm afraid this is not a question of biting newcomers who were acting in good faith. The two editors who have been repeatedly adding the infobox to this article and fooling around with the photograph, Warbler123 and 88.111.201.28, have been vandalizing multiple articles in the last 24 hours. In the other cases they were vandalizing existing info-boxes and not in opera-related articles. "They" just happened on this one, not out of any desire to improve it or interest in the subject. Take a look at their contributiions in the last 24 hours. All their edits have been reverted. Both are sockpuppets of WJH1992 who appears to have a long history of vandalism, disruption, and sock-puppetry on Wikipedia. 88.111.201.28 and Warbler123 have now been blocked by administrators. WJH1992 has been blocked indefinitely since December. Viva-Verdi's exasperated tone here was perhaps ill-judged, but understandable. Exxolon and Luna Santin, if in addition to objecting to Viva-Verdi's exasperated message, you also object to the removal of the infobox, we can continue the discussion. But really, this article could use so much improvement. Why not work on editing it to make it a better article? Best, Voceditenore (talk) 23:21, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Good eyes. :) I imagine these issues were around before this specific incident, and will continue to be argued over after it, but this may resolve this particular case. My interest/participation pretty much depends on whether people are still arguing, hopefully offering a mediating presence. Very much appreciate your insight. – Luna Santin (talk) 23:59, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I was about to respond to Exxolon and Luna Santin. Is it still necessary now that the sock puppets have been blocked? Viva-Verdi's exasperation was entirely understandable IMO. Also it's normal/reasonable for projects to develop guidelines relevant to articles within its scope. In the case of the guideline about biographical infoboxes, it was the result of exhaustive, centralized discussions. -- Kleinzach (talk) 23:46, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict)True, although I'd hesitate to consider such guidelines binding unless strongly supported by the community as a whole... that gets us into the usual arguments about guideline/policy/consensus/meta-consensus, though, and we could keep at that for hours, probably -- if there's no further argument, I doubt it's worth it. I'll keep an eye out in case people keep talking; if not, cheers. – Luna Santin (talk) 23:59, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Yes, it is true we (Opera WikiProject) cannot dictate the rules but we work collectively to improve articles related to Opera. And before making any decisions, we had discussion and consensus from the members. One thing I don’t understand about some users is, they don’t contribute to opera related articles (or a bit) but they mostly love to add “infobox”, and when one of Opera WikiProject members removed it, these people get “emotional”! To me, there is no such thing as “veto” because when we want to do something new, we discuss. And if the majority disagree, especially if the majority are those who involve heavily in the article(s) say “no”, I think these people (infobox lovers) should re-consider. This has got nothing to do with the feeling of “ownership” but it is for the standardization and the quality of the articles under the supervision of any Projects in WIKI. - Jay (talk) 08:52, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Protection needed?

Infoboxes keep being added by anonymous IPs traceable to the south of England. (212.139.127.38 and 88.111.201.28 are both Tiscali.) Would it be possible to protect the page against anonymous editing? Would this be a good idea? -- Kleinzach (talk) 09:50, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes and no, because once the protection date has expired, the “Infobox fans” will add it back. Just look at Domingo’s article (birth year issue). The easy way is to make it as a policy and make it known and recognized by Project Classical, Musicians and Biography, so then nobody will argue about it ever again. - Jay (talk) 10:27, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
212.139.127.38 has just been blocked: it's another sock puppet of WJH1992 - but the block is only for 24 hours, presumably not to inconvenience other people on Tiscali. -- Kleinzach (talk) 10:46, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Apart from one address, this user (User:WJH1992) has never used an IP for more than 24 hours, so it's no use blocking it for any longer. Fram (talk) 11:22, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Perfect Pitch?

The claim that Pavarotti had perfect pitch, indicated in the biography of this entry, needs a citation. I have never heard, in all my years of studying opera and it's performers, that Pavarotti ever had perfect pitch. Many singers can find other notes based on a base note, but this skill is a reflection of relative pitch and should not be confused with perfect pitch, —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.112.100.213 (talk) 01:15, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

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