Talk:List of metro systems/Archive 25

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Archive 25

Brisbane

I'm surprised that Brisbane's Cross River Rail is on here. Isn't the Cross River Rail just an extension to Brisbane's existing suburban rail network? Steelkamp (talk) 10:02, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

It's the same as the Melbourne Metro Tunnel, even though people claim Metro Tunnel is a part of Melbourne's existing suburban Rail network, it is a metro system as it has true metro origins and meets criteria, so therefore, if that is on the list, the Cross River Rail should too, these two systems belongs on the list, the case for Metro Tunnel has already been discussed that it belongs here Metrosfan (talk) 11:16, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

What does "true metro origins" mean? What are these "criteria"? Steelkamp (talk) 13:37, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

As mentioned by a user, I've looked up reliable sources for both, including project pages for both of them.

For the Metro Tunnel, this project page here does mention a 'metro-style rail network ... similar to major cities such as London, New York and Singapore.' This does not mean however, that it automatically is and becomes a metro system. Just because it has the characteristics of one, doesn't make it one, so as long as it is only part of larger suburban railway network, which covers a significant larger distance than a conventional metro system, and thus does NOT constitute a metro/rapid transit system by itself.

The Cross River Rail is even less so of a metro system as

• The new underground section is shared between multiple different commuter rail (explicitly) lines, that all connect up to different QR railway services.
• The project page emphasises on its supposedly 'metro-style characteristics', even less so than the Metro Tunnel. 'Cross River Rail is a second river crossing at the core of the rail network with capacity to run as many as 24 trains in each direction.' Note that despite it's high capacity...
• ...at the end of the day, the Cross River Rail is too, only a part of a larger suburban network, and thus can NOT be classified as a metro system by itself.

Even if this article were to be named 'List of urban rail systems', I would still disqualify the Cross River Rail at least, as it's even less of a 'metro system' than the Metro Tunnel.

And honestly? This article is too cluttered with unnecessary and excess information that would really cater to a minority, like the planned metro systems section, some of the planned metros having been canned for decades, and yet included in this article as if it's of any useful information to anyone. The point of this article to be a list of metro systems, not a "list of metro systems, including those that are under planning and have 0 concrete plans and or cancelled". Some of these sections look arbitrarily placed just for the sake of filling up the article and even look fake without a proper source at all! The quality of this article has really gone down the drain since last year...

I'll not revert any edits for the time being, but I will do so if it affects the overall quality of the article.

CCL-DTL (talk) 16:04, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

To add on to this, should the Kryvyi Rih Metrotram be considered a metro system? Despite the rolling stock, it has separate, right of way underground sections and have stations built to rapid transit standards (typical from the Soviet era). And if level crossings are an issue with this, then why are the Tyne and Wear Metro and the Oslo metro included, as the both of them have it too? CCL-DTL (talk) 16:28, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

the Tyne and Wear Metro and Oslo Metro have true metro origin, there's one talk section above for the Oslo Metro and you will see why it cannot be removed, the Tyne and Wear Metro has heavier rolling stocks than actual light rail systems,the Amsterdam Metro have literal light rail rolling stocks running on the system and its still counted as one Metrosfan (talk) 23:57, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

For the Cross River Rail, I guess fair enough, but the Metro Tunnel has already been discussed that it qualifies here so therefore you shouldn't removed them Metrosfan (talk) 23:55, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

List on planned metro systems should have a column for status

Add new column to indicate status of the project. Anttipng (talk) 11:47, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Noted, will be added soon Metrosfan (talk) 00:14, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

List by continent removal

@Nonusme@Rckania@Qazzy52@Ymblanter@Oknazevad @Laggingcomputer@OrewaTel@Matthewmayer I propose this plan: Should we remove the list by continent section? It seems to be useless and only makes this page's quality goes down as it contains unnecessary information that we already have, since we have list by country section, we should probably remove the List by continent to remove some unnecessary information Metrosfan (talk) 01:22, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Yeah. It seems a bit unnecessary. Rckania (talk) 01:53, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

I think it gives a nice overview but I do not have a strong opinion and if consensus is to remove let it be. Ymblanter (talk) 06:31, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

I see now that it is indeed redundant with the list by country, so that it can go. We might want to add an extra column in the list by country listing the continent. Ymblanter (talk) 06:33, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

agree, add a continent column to the countries list and remove the continent lists Matthewmayer (talk) 15:21, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

i don't think a column to show the continent the country belongs to is necessary Metrosfan (talk) 06:36, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

The whole point of having a sortable list is that we don't need redundant charts in the first place. Why are the country and continent lists even a thing? Remove them both. oknazevad (talk) 19:22, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Mecca Metro Line 1

@Matthewmayer@Nonusme@Ymblanter@OknazevadTo be honest, does Mecca Metro actually belong to the operational list, I know Mecca Metro Line 1 is using Monorail rolling stock but the trains look like they do have true metro origin, the Mecca Metro Line 1 is similar towards the Beijing Subway Line S1 and maybe Beijing Subway Capital Airport Express Line, so since these lines are included for Beijing Subway, I would say Mecca Metro qualifies and should be moved to Operational List Metrosfan (talk) 05:58, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

irs not a Monorail. You can tell just from looking at a picture of it. However, it runs 7 days a year. It's not an urban rail system used for transporting people for day to day activities. It's a shuttle train that is used for Pilgrims once a year. It's not a metro. Rckania (talk) 06:06, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, that fails the "frequent service" consideration. It may be metro technology, but it's not metro service. oknazevad (talk) 10:16, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Metro Tunnel and Cross River Rail

Consensus needs to be established in order to add these systems. At present, there is not consensus, and the only "discussion" involved one editor.

@CCL-DTL: @Metrosfan: @Ymblanter: @Oknazevad: @Epicgenius: Please discuss. Cards84664 16:26, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't know enough about the latter to really comment, but as for the former, I do not think it should be included. It's more akin to SEPTA's Center City Commuter Connection than a true metro. oknazevad (talk) 16:37, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

But the Metro Tunnel has already been discussed in July and August 2023, so I don't get why they have to remove it and not allow people to re add it Metrosfan (talk) 00:00, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Looking back through that discussion, there isn't a clear consensus to include. oknazevad (talk) 00:18, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Pinging @Steelkamp as they initiated the Talk:List of metro systems#Brisbane discussion earlier. Fork99 (talk) 20:41, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't think I've participated in the previous discussions about this topic. However, I will note that the Cross River Rail article describes it as a "commuter rail line" that is part of the local commuter rail network. Similarly, Metro Tunnel's article describes that project as being for a suburban rail line. Neither of these seem to be true metros, but rather an underground segment of a mainline railway line, akin to the underground portions of the Elizabeth line or the Réseau Express Régional. – Epicgenius (talk) 02:01, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

That is exactly correct. Related, I am concerned that each system is being judged on a case-by-case basis by Wikipedia editors, which practically amounts to original research. We need to be using a database from somewhere else rather than making the decisions on what is a metro ourselves. Steelkamp (talk) 02:31, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

pinging @SHB2000 since he's also involved in readding them in the past few weeks Metrosfan (talk) 01:16, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

It was agreed upon last year to include Metro Tunnel for the reasons mentioned by Gracchus. No comment on CRR. --SHB2000 (talk) 01:38, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Pinging @Gracchus250 as I remember off the top of my head that they were involved in previous discussions on this talk page and were just mentioned by SHB2000 above. Fork99 (talk) 05:27, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

I will say, though: SEPTA's w:Center City Commuter Connection is more akin to Sydney's w:City Circle, ESR or Airport Line or Melbourne's w:City Loop rather than the Metro Tunnel which on its own has all the standalone features of a metro (signalling, grade-separation, platform screen doors, semi-automation, station distancing, etc) – the real question arises because of the rest of the line. --SHB2000 (talk) 23:29, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

And that's the thing. The rest of the line. Having a metro-like section in the city center doesn't make a line a metro if the rest of it is just an ordinary part of the suburban commuter rail network. A metro line is a metro line from end to end of its not a metro line at all. This idea that just because a tunnel section meets some metro design standard that means the city now suddenly has a metro system for that tunnel portion only is wrong. This is an issue we've discussed in the past. It's why some of the systems we left out were left out in the first place. oknazevad (talk) 16:21, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

^ Agree. Calling a part of a suburban railway network a 'metro system' is wrong, just because it has the typical shebang of a typical metro line doesn't automatically grant it 'metro system status'. CCL-DTL (talk) 16:27, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

@CCL-DTLDid you even see the invisible note? The Metro Tunnel has already been discussed that it qualifies here, so you shouldn't have removed it before discussing first, you can't just remove something that's ALREADY been DISCUSSED and not allow people to re-add it without discussing when it's already discussed it qualifies here Metrosfan (talk) 01:06, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Again, no clear consensus to keep/add them. CCL-DTL (talk) 08:29, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

That's only for the Cross River Rail Metrosfan (talk) 08:43, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, CCL-DTL, but Metrosfan is right here. It was quite widely agreed upon after its addition and no one contested it until now. Only CRR is at issue here. --SHB2000 (talk) 11:55, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

exactly, however it might be unfortunate that he's still not gonna allow us to re-add it even after that, he keeps thinking there's no clear consensus to add it Metrosfan (talk) 14:31, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

I concede - after reading a bit I will agree to keep the Metro Tunnel in here, as the entire section the Metro Tunnel is built upon will be converted into a rapid transit service (if I'm reading it correctly).

The Cross River Rail should still NOT be added back though, that's a whole different thing CCL-DTL (talk) 13:39, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree with you regarding CRR. Apparently some of the line still has level crossings further south (which will be removed eventually but not upon opening). --SHB2000 (talk) 10:57, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

What is "the rest of the line", really?

I could use a similar argument to say that Tokyo only has 3 metro lines (Marunouchi, Ginza, and Ōedo) since all the other lines through-run with other suburban rail lines and are therefore essentially just metro "core" of a larger, suburban rail system.

If you want to argue that the "core" section has to be expansive, well, just how expansive? 9 km is already longer than some of the extremely short metro lines, including the Waterloo and City Line.

I have already talked about this in my comment for "Proposed merge: 'List of Electric Urban Rail Systems'"; it is often not clear where a line ends and begins.

If you try to use percentage, you encounter the issue where an extension of a system causes the system to lose a metro line.

If you use a strict length (for example, that at least 10 km of the thing should qualify as being a metro), we are using arbitrary definitions that would qualify and disqualify some lines from being metros just based on what we think.

If you go off of how it's branded and displayed on a map, well, that's another arbitrary distinction that ultimately hinges on the municipality's whims. We have already agreed that "it's a metro because the municipality says it is" is not acceptable. Laggingcomputer (talk) 02:26, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Exactly, I literally put it as already discussed and not to remove without discussing however CCL-DTL keeps on removing them and claiming it's part of Melbourne and Brisbane's suburban railway network, he even saw the invisible note itself but yet he still removes them and don't allow people to re-add it, I re-added it the third time it get removed by someone else again and he just expected us to just start this new discussion about Metro Tunnel and Cross River Rail when it's already discussed Metrosfan (talk) 14:04, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Because the previous discussion didn't have consensus to add them. They don't qualify. oknazevad (talk) 16:22, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

The thing is he already saw the note, if he dosent approve this he should have left those systems there and discuss first, then only remove after discussion ended Metrosfan (talk) 00:21, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

How does it not? For the CRR, ok maybe, but for Metro Tunnel, Gracchuss has already showed the reason why it qualifies, as mentioned by SHB2000 Metrosfan (talk) 08:43, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

After Gracchuss thoroughly explained what made it a metro system, no one successfully rebutted their statement. It was agreed upon to leave Metro Tunnel as-is and add or remove it once it opens as per w:WP:CRYSTALBALL. --SHB2000 (talk) 23:12, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

I disagree that Melbourne Metro should be considered a rapid transit standard since

- Despite the claim to have full grade separation, there will still be pedestrian crossings

- Never in any plans that the using Metro Tunnel was intended to be a separate metro system

- Cranbourne and Pakenham lines already completely used high-capacity trains (they would be metro standards if using this argument)

- Regional and freight trains still will use the line

Yes, there are exceptions where they may breach some metro criteria (London Metropolitan line with the London Underground, Hong Kong East Rail Line with MTR, Oslo Metro Line 1 etc.) but they tend to be part of a wider metro network which have other lines that don't break any of the metro criteria and have true metro origin so they are given a pass compare to Melbourne which does not have other true metro lines in the rail network until Suburban Rail Loop. Mhaot (talk) 11:21, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Not really, They're a lot different to the existing Melbourne Suburban Railway Metrosfan (talk) 11:30, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

The are only slightly different with the overhead voltage already but High Capacity Metro Trains were actually tested on other rail lines ,and Cranbourne and Pakenham lines will still be on a Main line railways since VLine service and Freight already and will continue to use the line. Tell me any similar metro standard line that will be similar to service of a Metro Tunnel. Mhaot (talk) 12:14, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Cranbourne + Pakenham do not use advanced metro signalling unlike Metro Tunnel, though. --SHB2000 (talk) 12:00, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Two systems missing in Venezuela

The systems of Valencia and Maracaibo (both operating since 2006) are missing. 2806:106E:19:3EE4:F4FB:996D:CC13:64EA (talk) 00:59, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

They're listed at medium-capacity rail system. oknazevad (talk) 01:49, 11 February 2024 (UTC)