Talk:List of metro systems/Archive 17

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Country/Territory

Just wondering, why is Tren Urbano listed under Puerto Rico, which is a territory of the United States, while Hong Kong is listed under China, People's Republic of? Shouldn't it be consistent as Hong Kong, like Puerto Rico is a dependent territory? Unown Uzer717 (talk) 11:37, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Fix it, but I won't go there. All I know is I have to show a passport when changing from the Shenzhen metro to the MTR at Futian, and I have to show passport AND visa when going the other way. So I take the Shekou ferry, then it feels like a cruise ....BsBsBs (talk) 12:53, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

NO! Kill Puerto Rico if you insist, but don't you dare put Hong Kong in here - the column heading clearly says "Country", and regardless of what the HKG-pushers say, "Country" is controlled by the List of sovereign states... --IJBall (talk) 14:40, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Cool it. It's common practice most everywhere else to identify Hong Kong as Hong Kong and not explicitly as China. I also can't help but notice how incivil and bossy your behavior is on the talk page and edit summaries. Please look at Wikipedia:Ownership of articles and Wikipedia:Civility. Citobun (talk) 11:28, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Actually, it's not common practice to list Hong Kong as a separate country, despite what Hong Kong partisans on Wiki tend to say. Sure, some lists do - in some lists it even makes sense to list Hong Kong separately. In other lists, it doesn't, and so it isn't. Regardless, how country is "defined" on each page determines what "countries" can be listed - this list is quite clear what definition of country we are using, and it is not inclusive of Hong Kong and Puerto Rico.

BTW, I don't claim "ownership" of this, or any, article, and never have. But I will definitely enforce WP:Consensus decisions, of which what is defined as "country" on this page is one. And I'll admit that I get annoyed by people who edit articles like this one without fully reading it first - yeah, that's on me, but it's also on drive-by editors who don't fully read pages before they edit. --IJBall (talk) 06:25, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

If you read reputable news magazines, the Economist for instance, you can tell that it is a common practice. Don't jump to your very own conclusion if you don't read. (As a matter of fact, even when you register for a GMail account or install a new OS onto your computer, you can actually find Hong Kong and Puerto Rico, among many other dependencies, under a dropdown list for countries. 116.48.155.127 (talk) 15:05, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Once again, the specific definition of "country" that we use here (and on the List of tram and light rail transit systems) is clearly laid out in the 'Legend' of this page, and is the consensus definition. As long as the specific definition of "country" used in each Wiki article is clearly stated, there is no ambiguity. The vast majority of editors here feel there is no benefit gained by the inclusion of dependent territories in the list of "Countries". Not every page will choose to use the same definition of "country", but as long as each page clearly defines which definition they are using, there should be no issues. Once again, while there may be multiple definitions of "country", the one in the 'Legend' of this page is the one that we will use here, as it's by consensus. --IJBall (talk) 17:48, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Don't use the word 'country' if you're insisting to refer only to a subset of countries. Consensus isn't a mechanism to define something black as white. Consensus isn't a way to pretend that you may refuse to understand the real-life meaning of any English word. 116.48.155.127 (talk) 17:56, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

It's hard to have a discussion with someone who is effectively denying that the word "country" has multiple definitions, one of which is clearly synonymous "sovereign nation" and "independent state" (as it is, even at Wiki's country article). As for "consensus", it's defined at WP:Consensus, and is not defined in such a way as to give one or two editors "veto" power over the consensus of the other editors. --IJBall (talk) 18:04, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

That article doesn't seem to suggest that they're synonymous. And it appears that you're the one who's denying what's demonstrated by, e.g., The Economist, reports of the Heritage Foundation, THES, and so on and so forth, while producing nothing to justify your position (that the word 'countries' refers only to sovereign states). 116.48.155.127 (talk) 18:13, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

RfC

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Are both sovereign states and dependencies both subsets of the English word 'country', in the same manner as leopards, jaguars, lions, cats, are subsets of felids? (Please discuss under Talk:List of countries without armed forces#RfC.) - 116.48.155.127 17:23, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Why is this here if it has something to do with another page? Serialjoepsycho (talk) 01:09, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Because he's fishing to have Hong Kong declared a "country" in every major list he can get his hands on. --IJBall (talk) 01:19, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Confirmed. This (anonymous) disruptive editor is desperately trying to get Hong Kong declared independent through Wikipedia. Totally inappropriate. Timothy Titus ^{Talk To TT} 08:50, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes there's no way the question there could be used here. If affirmative the question there would answer if any military equivalent should be listed for Hong Kong. That wouldn't be a reason to cut the China from Hong Kong here.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 18:20, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Serialjoepsycho that's because there was also a discussion on the same matter on this talk page, and indeed under this section. (Meanwhile IJBall and Timothy please mind your accusations. You're already violating WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF.) 116.48.155.127 (talk) 19:27, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

One had nothing to do with the other. Separate situations. They don't compare. Hong Kong is in China and that is what it says here.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 21:23, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

(arbitrary break)

Puerto Rico and Guam are in the United States too, in that case, and the Isle of Man lies well within the United Kingdom. 116.48.155.127 (talk) 15:39, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Actually, the Isle of Man is not part of the United Kingdom, legally speaking. But as there's no metro there, it's not important here, not is Guam. Frankly, I think the second flags works well for HK and PR. It sufficiently notes the somewhat separate nature of the territories without implying a non-existent independence. My only concern is that it will prompt the in list of other sub-national divisions. oknazevad (talk) 16:06, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

I think the flag is redundant in the case of Hong Kong (not so in the case of Puerto Rico, which is a really weird special case in terms of this list...), but the current solution is not off-putting enough to warrant an objection, so I'm satisfied with the current situation as a workable compromise solution. --IJBall (talk) 16:20, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

IP the Isle of Mann isn't on this list is it? I'm not sure that Guam is either. And can someone tell me exactly where Hong Kong is in Hong Kong? Lol at least San Juan is in Puerto Rico.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 21:11, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

There should be one same rule for different lists, at least for lists on similar or related topics. 116.48.155.127 (talk) 19:23, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

@Serialjoepsycho: We gotta have the same rule for different lists. Wikipedia isn't just about the list of metro systems. 116.48.155.127 (talk) 15:39, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

@Oknazevad: Dependencies are sometimes considered and sometimes not considered part of the sovereign powers, depending on the situation. For example, for ECHR purposes, the Isle of Man falls within the UK. For WTO purposes, Hong Kong isn't considered to be part of the trade and customs territory of China. Dependencies aren't subnational entities in the same sense. 116.48.155.127 (talk) 19:23, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

If you are expecting consistency on this issue, you're going to be disappointed. That's because "territories" occupy a "gray area" between nation-state and something like province or district. In same cases, it makes sense to list them separately (e.g. Hong Kong has a different tax system than the PRC, so it makes perfect sense in that situation to list it separately). In other cases, there is no advantage to listing territories separately from their nations. Basically, Wikipedia is governed by WP:Consensus, and every separate Wiki article may come to differing consensuses on issues such as these. That's just how it is... --IJBall (talk) 19:29, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

HK has their own rules and standards for their railways, and the connection of the rail systems of HK and China is nothing much different from those across international borders. In what way do you think it's different from the tax system, e.g.? 116.48.155.127 (talk) 19:33, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Hello? 116.48.155.127 (talk) 15:39, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

@Oknazevad: What about removing the flags under the metropolitan column, and state that it's "Puerto Rico (US)" under the country column? That's the current practice for many lists by country on Wikipedia. 116.48.155.127 (talk) 19:33, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Meh. Six of one, half a dozen of another. As IJ notes, there's no perfect solution, and the current one is fine. oknazevad (talk) 19:37, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

That depends on whether readers would look for, e.g., San Juan or Puerto Rico, under #P or #U. What do you think? 116.48.155.127 (talk) 19:42, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

The only problem here is that Hong Kong is not a dependency of China. It is a City of China. It's autonomous that is all.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 20:12, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

No where is it defined as a 'city' in the law books. Its only status, for the time being, is special administrative region. Conventionally it's considered a dependency, and, like most inhabited dependencies do, appear with its own entry under lists of countries. 116.48.155.127 (talk) 13:18, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

(arbitrary break)

Let's see how the UIC deal with HK on their website:

• 'The conference was attended by researchers and practitioners from 24 countries, with delegates from 18 European countries and further afield from Australia, Hong Kong, Israel, Japan, Korea and the United States.' [1] [2]
• 'Due to the rapid economic growth of developing countries such as Korea, Singapore, Hong Kong, Indonesia and Malaysia, and the introduction of market economy in China, Asia has been in the spotlight.' [3]
• 'Many experts and professors from various countries were invited this course as lecturers, such as T. C. Kao, Professor of Taiwan National university, Kiyohiro TAKEMOTO, Manager of JR East, Leo Mak, General Director of BOMBARDIER TRANSPORTATION as well as Korean experts, so they delivered high standard of lectures about urban railway operation in Taiwan, Japan, Hong-Kong [sic] and Korea vividly.' [4]
• 'Speakers were from Australia, UK, Sweden, Germany, Japan, Holland, Korea, USA, the European Railway Agency, South Africa, Ireland, Hong Kong, France and Canada.' [5]
• (See the dropdown menu titled 'Business Country:') [6]
• (See the content page under Page 2) [7]

116.48.155.127 (talk) 13:29, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

You just won't "get it", will you? Fine, I'm going to leave it to somebody else to try and explain it to you (for the zillionth time). Suffice it to say, you are not going to win this fight, now matter how much text you throw at Talk pages... --IJBall (talk) 13:49, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Please take a look at WP:CIVIL. Thanks. 116.48.155.127 (talk) 13:52, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Civility? How about a little competence? Your RFC was unrelated to the other RFC you attached it to. All of your justifications here amount solely to original research. POV pushing gets old quick. Get to the point and use reliable rsources.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 19:47, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Tell us more about how One China, Two Systems the constitutional provision makes Hong Kong an dependency instead of an autonomous area.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 19:52, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

It's an autonomous dependency, like most inhabited dependencies in the 21st century are.

It's related to other RfCs because it's about the international character and personality of dependencies in general. There's no original research. Those are nothing more than examples to illustrate how other sources deal with dependencies. 116.48.155.127 (talk) 17:20, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

• Your sources above aren't actually reliable. What you fail to take into account is that Hong Kong, China has the right to maintain and develop relations and conclude and implement agreements with foreign states and regions and relevant international organizations in the appropriate fields, including the economic, trade, financial and monetary, shipping, communications, tourism, cultural and sports fields. This is a part of it's autonomy. It has limited rights in relation to Foreign affairs. Limited being the key word. Also Hong Kong is a city. It's still a special adminastrative region but it's also a city. A city and SAR of China. The country of China.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 20:07, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Present your reliable sources to argue for your viewpoint then, if there's any. (Meanwhile, please be informed that Hong Kong hasn't got any city status within the administrative division framework of the People's Republic.) 116.48.155.127 (talk) 17:20, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Do either the Hong Kong or PRC governments consider Hong Kong to be a country? Liamdavies (talk) 14:39, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

This is how 'Hong Kong' appears in lists or tables published by the Hong Kong Government: [8] (under 'Participating Economies'), [9] (see lower half of Page 3, and note that Jersey, Guernsey and Bermuda also appear in the same table).

And here're two examples of how Hong Kong appears in tables or in text published by the People's Republic's ministry of commerce: [10] (table 1.2 and paragraph 1.2), [11]. 116.48.155.127 (talk) 18:17, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Fine, I can see it lists itself as an economy (not knowing Chinese I can't trust Google Translate's literal translations). Is there a document somewhere where the Hong Kong government claims to be a country? Liamdavies (talk) 18:33, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Please refer to the .Pdf file linked above. 116.48.155.127 (talk) 18:46, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Or perhaps this one too if you're interested: [12]. 116.48.155.127 (talk) 18:49, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Quote from www.gov.hk: "Hong Kong is a Special Administrative Region of the People's Republic of China. Following British rule from 1842 to 1997, China assumed sovereignty under the 'one country, two systems' principle." The "one country" here obviously refers to China, not Hong Kong. In other words, the HK government does not consider Hong Kong a country. -Zanhe (talk) 02:38, 9 April 2014 (UTC) (cross-posted on Talk:List of tram and light rail transit systems)

Thanks Zahne. 116.48.155.127: if we're going to even consider this we really need something from the government where they claim to a country (not headings on a table but actual prose, ie a sentence that contains the terms "Hong Kong" and "country" preferably with "is a" between them), if not even the government of Hong Kong consider Hong Kong to be a country I don't see why wiki should. Liamdavies (talk) 15:01, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Both the Hong Kong and the Chinese governments consistently present Hong Kong alongside other countries, not alongside Chinese provinces and cities, for whatever international comparison or listing purposes, as you can tell from the links above, e.g., the HKMA one which also includes Bermuda, Jersey and Guernsey.

And here's how Hong Kong deals with other countries: [13], [14]. 116.48.155.127 (talk) 19:44, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Zanhe I'm afraid you're cherrypicking, not presenting the full picture, and taking words out of contexts. In the 'One country, two systems' saying, the word 'country' is actually a direct (mis)translation of the Chinese vocabulary guójiā. Chinese languages lack the separate concepts of 'sovereign state' and country, and the term guójiā means 'sovereign state(s)'. 116.48.155.127 (talk) 19:44, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

116.48.155.127: Please review WP:TEDIOUS, especially Section 2.9 - you aren't convincing anyone here, and you need to give it a rest. You've been at this for two months, and have only succeeded in alienating everyone away from your viewpoint. Please move on. --IJBall (talk) 21:10, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Tendentious anon user from dynamic IPs of netvigator.com? Sounds like familiar behaviour of our old friend User:Instantnood. I've opened a new SPI investigation. Feel free to add your comments there. -Zanhe (talk) 22:10, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Ah, interesting - so I've been snookered all along?... I'd never heard of Instantnood before this (interesting that Oknazevad, who's seemed to have run ins with this Instantnood before didn't catch it earlier!...). In any case, I don't think I can contribute anything to a SPI investigation, though I'd certainly be willing to testify and attest to this IP user's disruptiveness in general. --IJBall (talk) 00:43, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

It's embarrassing that I didn't, actually. Heck, I've got the relevant SPI page on my watchlist! It does fit the pattern completely, though. (As an aside, IJ, when adding additional evidence, you should put it as a separate comment, not in Zanhe's post. Not only because it strengthens the case to show that the IP has a negative impact on multiple pages and editors, but also because it isn't something Zanhe added and therefore should have his signature attached.) oknazevad (talk) 01:33, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

OK, thanks - that's good to know, though I'm hoping on not using this particular type of Admin-intervention again. But I'll go take a look at the SPI page again, and fix any of my mistakes on this front... --IJBall (talk) 02:18, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Mind telling why you'd consider the UIC sources not to be reliable? 116.48.155.127 (talk) 18:52, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Hello? 116.48.155.127 (talk) 19:44, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Because it doesn't reliable represent the facts about Hong Kong. Hong Kong article 151 rights are in play here. http://www.basiclaw.gov.hk/en/basiclawtext/chapter_7.html The Sino-British Joint Declaration is something you should familiarize yourself with IP POV pusher. Basic Law is guaranteed until 2047. The Basic Law isn't represented in the language of the UIC. However it is clear for this to be legal and binding Hong Kong joined this effort as Hong Kong, China. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary sources. Your claim that Hong Hong in and of itself is a Country is not represented by the UIC source as UIC source is a wp:redflag. Come back with a reliable source or time this conversation is time to end.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 13:29, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Joe, for your own edification, you may want to take a look at this, especially this most relevant part... --IJBall (talk) 13:48, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

I was aware that he was a SPA. However it also seems he's been at this beofre. That amkes it seem likely he'll be at it again. Even a tendentious editor deserves an answer of why their source is unreliable. It's a resonable question. But indeed thank you for making me aware they were finally blocked.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 19:24, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Actually Joe, and I know this is a follow up to an old post, he deserves nothing. See WP:BAN and WP:DENY. oknazevad (talk) 15:13, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

East Rail

Top

Is the East Rail of the MTR a metro line? It was opened in 1910 as the Kowloon-Canton Railway British Section. Is it comparable to Line 1 of Seoul, the Yamanote Line in Tokyo metropolitan, Copenhagen's S-tog, or Naples' Line 2? 116.48.155.127 (talk) 17:29, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

It is a metro line. According to MTR's official website, it is considered part of the MTR's heavy rail system. Why do you ask?

By the way, Seoul Metro Line 1 and Tokyo Yamanote Line are metro lines (the boundaries are really unclear on these two) while the Copanhagen S-tog and Naple's Line 2 are both commuter rail. Epicgenius (talk) 00:16, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

I understand your concern as the East Rail shares tracks with intercity trains but it fits the other criteria and most sources list it as a metro, (as part of the MTR heavy rail system) so it should remain unchanged. Unown Uzer717 (talk) 04:02, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

We now have definite references saying metros must have dedicated (i.e. unshared) tracks. If this line doesn't, then it should be out, regardless of whatever "branding" the operating company gives it. --IJBall (talk) 04:39, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

So, you're saying that under this definition, ten out of 13 lines of the Tokyo Subway shouldn't be considered metro lines? (The only lines in Tokyo that meet this criteria are the Ōedo, Marunouchi, and Ginza Lines.) Also, the Seoul Subway's Lines 1, 3, 4, and the named lines are also not metro lines by this definition. Epicgenius (talk) 15:44, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Besides, the Kowloon-Canton Railway Corporation is long defunct (by over 6 years) and the East Rail Line is currently running on tracks exclusive to the line. At Lo Wu Station, a cross-platform interchange must be made to connect to mainland trains, just like at Ronkonkoma station of the LIRR. Epicgenius (talk) 15:48, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

I don't make the rules, but we should follow them. BsBsBs was right about one thing: we can't just include any old systems or lines we like here, if they don't meet all of the criteria. Now I don't know as much about some of these systems as other editors do, and it's possible that only portions of some of the lines you mention would be out rather than the whole linelength - regardless, we can always figure out the details on the Talk page. (And, yes - with Seoul, this was what the whole fight has been about...) I'll point out that we can 'Note' systems however we like, to explain and define some of these situations. But if a line (or a portion of a line) shares tracks with other rail systems, or with freight, the references tell us that they don't meet the "metro" definition. On Wiki, we have to follow the references. --IJBall (talk) 16:39, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, but... There are exceptions to every rule, and we shouldn't treat the criteria as all-or-nothing too strictly. As we've long established in the years of prior discussion. Lest we do stuff like kick out most of Tokyo, or parts of London or Chicago. To do such would make us look pedantic and out of alighnment with the wider world. oknazevad (talk) 16:45, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Doing so sets bad precedents, does come dangerously close to (if not over the line of) WP:OR, and invites contentious editing ("why is an exception made for that system, and not my system?!...", which of course is exactly what keeps happening with Seoul and Munich and the like...), which was BsBsBs' point all along. If we're going to insist upon "picking and choosing this way" (which I'll go on the record as being against doing, outside of not enforcing the "no at-grade crossings" rule too strictly...) then all of these "exceptional" or "borderline" systems are going to have to heavily 'Noted', so it's clear exactly what was done, and why it was done. And I'm not sure that's the case currently... For example, BIL's "commuter rail-like" 'Note' should probably be restored, IMO... And a Talk page review of these "exceptional" or "borderline" systems would probably be worthwhile, so we all know exactly what the issues are - if East Rail hasn't shared tracks for 6 years, that's fine, but I think we all need to see some proof of that (along with an understanding that some of the systems-specific pages are going to need to be updated too, to reflect more recent developments...). --IJBall (talk) 17:05, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

I'd be more concerned with violating OR by leaving off systems that are universally included on lists such as this based on our reading of criteria. I guess I'm saying i lean towards including if in doubt. oknazevad (talk) 18:44, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

At this point, I think we need to see those references (we can cite the system names themselves with them), because we really do need to see if secondary references (e.g. not refs from Tokyo's operator itself, for example) are in fact counting all of these other (shared rail) lines as "metro" lines. Because it would be odd if UITP and the U.S. FTA are so clear in defining "metros" one way, and other reputable sources are ignoring those definitions in the case of certain systems (or, at least in the case of certain lines, within a few specific systems). --IJBall (talk) 04:02, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Epicgenius the KCR Corporation still exists to hold the assets that it used to operate. It's leased the right to operate its railway assets to the MTRCL in 2007 through a 50-year concession. Meanwhile, it's necessary to note that there're still about a dozen departures of 'through-trains' everyday from East Rail's southern terminus in Kowloon to Shanghai, Beijing, Guangzhou or Zhaoqing. And they only terminated their freight trains five or six years ago. 116.48.155.127 (talk) 19:16, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

And btw there is no cross-platform interchange in Lo Wu for Chinese trains. It's a ten- or fifteen-minute walk across a bridge over a river, which is also the border, plus waiting time on both sides of the river for the immigration counters and customs inspections. 116.48.155.127 (talk) 19:20, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

@116.48.155.127: Okay, so that's even better. It never shares tracks with commuter rails, not even at Lo Wu. Epicgenius (talk) 14:08, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

The commuter system became more like a metro especially since the trains were refurbished in the late 1990s. Trains for Guangzhou, Zhaoxing, Shanghai and Beijing run from Kowloon, i.e., these trains share the same pair of tracks with trains that run within Hong Kong borders. 116.48.155.127 (talk) 14:12, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

In this situation, then, I'd say it's like the Seoul Subway. Epicgenius (talk) 01:16, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

But the train services within Hong Kong is now like metro, in terms of design of the compartments, schedule/frequency, the use faring gates, and so on and so forth. Long-distance trains constitutes only a tiny proportion of the traffic on its pair of tracks, and freight trains no longer run on its tracks. 116.48.155.127 (talk) 15:30, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Then it would be classified as "metro-like", but I do not think that we have a list for that. Epicgenius (talk) 16:11, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Would you put that label on Tokyo's Yamanote Line too? 116.48.155.127 (talk) 16:28, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I would. Epicgenius (talk) 16:38, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Any other example?

(And what about the West Rail, which was designed and built with a concept similar to the East Rail in mind, with some long-distance and freight trains running on its track.. but isn't (or hasn't yet been) connected to any conventional railway?) 116.48.155.127 (talk) 16:43, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

I would also put the London Underground as falling under this criterion. (The District, Central, Jubilee, Metropolitan, and Bakerloo lines in particular.) Epicgenius (talk) 15:50, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Do these LU lines share their tracks with conventional trains? Meanwhile, what about lines on the Tokyo Metro and Toei? Many of them got through operations for a few stations with conventional railways nearby. 116.48.155.127 (talk) 17:59, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

@Epicgenius: Hello? 116.48.155.127 (talk) 16:32, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

the Underground shares track with the London Overground. Epicgenius (talk) 22:15, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Is there really that much sharing of track of the Underground with the London Overground? From what I can tell, it looks like there is a 3-station spur of the District Line that does share track with the London Overground, and another 2-station spur of the District Line that does the same... Oh wait, I see it - it shares quite a bit of route with the Bakerloo Line, yeah.

Point taken - it looks like even the London Underground has some track-sharing monkey business going on, at least on the margins. I don't know what to do about this, but we're going to have to come up with some solution here, long-term... --IJBall (talk) 00:28, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Basically many metro lines aren't truly and exclusively metros if we follow an ultra strict definition. 116.48.155.127 (talk) 15:07, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

When it comes to track-sharing, I'm not sure we have much of a choice, as the references seem pretty clear on the topic. Even so, I'd like to see what the proposal would be here for "borderline" case inclusion in the list on this topic... --IJBall (talk) 17:19, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

More

I disagree with IJBall. The East Rail Line is certainly a metro line. It holds the highest daily ridership of all MTR lines. At 101,000 pphpd, it has the highest hourly capacity of all the lines. The line is completely grade-separated, and the trains run at very narrow headways -- narrower than those of the Tung Chung or Tseung Kwan O lines. The design of the trains are functionally the same as those the urban metro lines, the stations are built to the same design standards, and the user experience is basically the same. Who makes the "rules" for what we can term a metro line? These considerations for what makes a "metro line" indicate the terms are not absolute.

IP user 116.48.155.127 makes a good point about West Rail. By your standards, it's a metro service now. But if it began accepting through trains to West Kowloon, as was proposed in the past, why would the West Rail service suddenly not qualify as a "metro"?

I think to disqualify the East Rail as a metro line would be absurdly pedantic and we ought to just use the total ridership figure provided by MTR. Citobun (talk) 11:25, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Because definitions mean something, and Wikipedia is supposed to follow outside references, not make up our own rules. If the definitions say that metros must have "reserved tracks", we can't just ignore that at our whim. From the discussion, it sounds like East Rail doesn't currently share tracks (and to "share tracks", I take that to mean a stretch of tracks, not just some minor trackage at an terminus station...). If so, then it's fine as a metro. I don't know about West Rail - but, again, if it shares tracks with other rail at more than just a terminus, then it can't be considered a metro, regardless of the volume of service, by definition. --IJBall (talk) 12:42, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Contrary to what other users said, the East Rail does share tracks, with the Guangzhou-Kowloon Through Train. According to that article, "twelve (intercity) trains run in each direction every day", compared with a few hundred on the East Rail. But I still think disqualifying it as a metro would be wrong based on what I and others have said above, and because despite what you've suggested, it seems the definition of a "metro" is not so concretely defined. The East Rail meets the definition of a metro to the highest degree in all respects, EXCEPT that the trackage happens to be used by an intercity train a few times a day.

The West Rail doesn't share tracks, but I think it was designed such that it could accommodate other services in the future. So what then? It's disqualified as a metro too, despite providing the same service to people?

What about the Lok Ma Chau Spur Line? It a spur of the East Rail with some intermediate stations built but not yet in use. It doesn't share trackage, so I guess it's a metro by your definition. But trains from Lok Ma Chau continue onward to Hung Hom. Citobun (talk) 13:13, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

I feel like you're channeling another well-known editor of this page with this "your definition" stuff. IT'S NOT MY DEFINITION - not only is "reserved track[age]" an explicit defining characteristic of metros according to UITP, but according to both APTA and the U.S. FTA (e.g. heavy rail/metros are "Separate rights-of-way (ROW) from which all other vehicular and foot traffic are excluded") as well. In fact, the definition of a "metro" is pretty concrete - there are basically four or five defining characteristics of a metro, regardless of what this list is doing on the subject in a few exceptional cases. I'm simply following the definitions. It's other editors, who are advocates for the inclusion of specific systems, that are coming up with their own definitions, IMHO.

If East Rail shares tracks with other rail, then it should be out. That's not "my definition" - that's from the explicit definition of what a "metro" is according to three institutions in this field. Remember: "The name of the system [or line] is not a criterion for inclusion or exclusion [in this list]." --IJBall (talk) 14:18, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

I have zero clue who this other editor is. But if other people are telling you the same thing, you might consider listening.

The "considerations" page I listed says that metro systems "almost" always run on exclusive ROW, and that the divisions between different system classifications "are not always clear". So it's not clear-cut as you're making it out to be. Here is a definition which doesn't state anything about excluding other rail services from the right of way -- only pedestrians and road traffic.

The East Rail runs to metro standard and it would be excessively pedantic to remove it. It's not an issue of "branding": there is, functionally speaking, no distinction between the service provided by East Rail, and the other MTR lines. Citobun (talk) 16:51, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

You are jumping headlong in to an ongoing discussion, and not surprisingly it's clear that you don't understand all that's gone in to it.

The current "Considerations" was heavily rewritten recently by an editor named BsBsBs. He had certain views about the definition of "metro" that have subsequently been overturned by reference and consensus. The very sentence you're quoting - "...metro systems "almost" always run on exclusive ROW..." - is actually one of these. I've been meaning to rewrite that section (again), in light of new references and new consensus, but I'm not going to tackle that job until I can give that job its proper effort and consideration, and that literally may be a couple of months from now on my end.

In any case, regardless how you feel, the references are clear on the criteria of "shared tracks". Currently, the list contains a few systems that pretty clearly violate this criteria, and when somebody down the line objects to them, I'm going to side with the objections for all the reasons I've outlined. You're within your rights to view a fealty to references as "pedantic", but if you're going to go against them, you better make sure that you've got the consensus of all of the other editors behind you on it... --IJBall (talk) 18:40, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

There's no single rule of thumb. For instance, many lines on Tokyo Metro and Toei got through operations with conventional railways nearby. The KCR Corporation, when it was still an operator, was member of the NOVA Group.[15][16] 116.48.155.127 (talk) 17:59, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Just for the sake of discussion, the East Rail, the West Rail, together with the Ma On Shan Line, weren't always considered part of HK's territory-wide metro or rapid transit network. Some sources considered they to be, some didn't, and considered the MTR to be the only metro or rapid transit of HK. It was only until December 2007 that the KCR Corporation, the owner and operator of these lines, stopped operating these lines and granted a concession to the MTR Corporation Limited. Another reason was that the East Rail had the trains in suburban or commuter configurations since 1982/83 and until the mid-1990s. Back then the East Rail (then known as the British Section of the Kowloon-Canton Railway) was more like a suburban or commuter railway linking booming new towns or satellite cities (namely Sha Tin, Tai Po, Fanling-Sheung Shui) with the city of Kowloon-New Kowloon. 116.48.155.127 (talk) 14:51, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Apart from the trains for Guangzhou, there are also trains for Zhaoxing, Shanghai and Beijing from Kowloon. 116.48.155.127 (talk) 14:51, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

SKM Warsaw

Should SKM Warsaw be included to this list? I may be wrong but I see similarity to for e.g. S-Bahn Berlin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aight 2009 (talk • contribs) ‎13:01, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Nope, Szybka Kolej Miejska is a commuter rail system and so it's not eligible for inclusion. Epicgenius (talk) 17:17, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for this info - I will now delete this system from the List of tram and light rail transit systems... --IJBall (talk) 18:28, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Revisiting Seoul: A Final Accounting?...

Top

A recent edit has forced my hand here: but now that the edit wars and disruptive editing of the past few months have abated, we need to revisit Seoul's rapid transit network, one more time, to once and for all figure out what we're going to count here, and how we're going to count it. The good news is that I think there is now strong consensus to count this network by operator, which means a unified accounting of the network as "one mega-system" is out. That, at least, is progress.

But now we need to figure out exactly which lines qualify as "metro" and which don't. Here too, mercifully, some clarity has been reached: U Line and EverLine definitely do not qualify as "metro" lines or systems (the former is a light rail system, and the latter is at best a "light metro" and really more akin to a "people mover" (though no reference really seems to call it that...)), so these two are out. Seoul Subway Lines 1-9 are definitely in - though there is some confusion (at least on my end...) on how much of Line 1 actually counts as a "metro" and how much of Line 1 is "something else" (e.g. a commuter rail line). So the real remaining issues seem to be the AREX and Korail lines.

So, on this, we need help from this community. I don't know Seoul nearly as well as others around here do. In terms of operators, the Seoul Metropolitan Subway page is now a help, as it breaks out each line by operator. But what needs to be nailed down is which of the 16 lines (not counting Incheon Subway) are really "metro standards" lines, and which aren't. In appraising this, I would strongly urge us to strictly enforce the "no shared tracks with other railways" rule for metros (if this causes problems for Tokyo, we'll maybe have to revisit that issue, at a later date...), as well as our usual "metro rules" (e.g. electrified, few to no at-grade crossings, high volume of service, etc.).

Once we can finally nail down which of Seoul's lines are truly "metro", we can finally eliminate the temporary "Total" row for Seoul in the table, and integrate all of that information into a descriptive 'Note' to attach to each of the Seoul metropolitan systems.

So can people here nail down, once and for all, which of these lines are "metro" and which are not (and why): AREX; Jungang, Gyeongui, Gyeongchun, Bundang, Suin (Korail); and Shinbundang (NeoTrans)? Let's finally get this done!... --IJBall (talk) 17:26, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

The only bullet proof lines (e.g. electrified, no at-grade crossings, high volume of service no shared tracks with other railway services) are the Bundang, Suin, Shinbundang, Ilsan (Korail section of Line 3), Gwacheon + Ansan Lines (Korail sections of Line 4).

AREX: right now it fits the technical definition of a Metro. However KTX high speed rail services are going to use the line sometime in April 2014.

Gyeongchun: Shares tracks with regional rail trains (ITX). 2-3 Trains per hour local commuter service on the entire line all day.

Jungang: Railway line to other side of South Korea with intercity service (Mugunghwa-ho). Urban Seoul section served by 4-5 local commuter trains per hour all day.

Gyeongui: At grade crossings in the outer sections. 4-5 local commuter trains per hour all day.Terramorphous (talk) 18:19, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Also, I have some doubts as to whether the Incheon Subway Line 1 should be counted as part of the SMS. It does have a few transfer stations to the SMS here and there, but metro systems aren't usually counted together just because transfers can be made at these stations. Epicgenius (talk) 23:35, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

The issue with Incheon, as I remember it, is that the transfer for the SMS was at Line 1's commuter rail portion not its metro portion. As such, I'd argue it's, thus, "physically separated" from the rest of the system just like the Staten Island Railway is separated from the rest of the NYC Subway system, and therefore Incheon isn't really "part" of the system (regardless of how its "branded" by the operators...). Is this an accurate characterization? --IJBall (talk) 00:28, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Addendum: Scratch the above - I think I was remembering the U Line. Incheon does look like it has several transfer stations with SMS. So, summarizing, the issue really comes down to: should Incheon-to-SMS be considered analogous to something like PATH-to-NYC Subway, or should the fact that it's "branded" with the rest of SMS influence whether it is included in the coming Seoul 'Note'? Yes?... --IJBall (talk) 00:54, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

We could organize the metro systems by operator, but it would cause a bunch of problems, as evidenced by previous discussions. On the other hand, it would be like a PATH-NYCS transfer, as both the Incheon-Seoul and PATH-NYCS transfers can be done using the same type of farecard (though not necessarily on the same fare). Epicgenius (talk) 01:08, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Just to clarify, as far as the table is concerned, we already are organizing Seoul by operator. Caveat: We're going to have to add a note about that to the Seoul Subway proper - I was thinking about adding a 'Note' to Seoul Subway (Lines 1-9) along the lines of (and, anyone, please feel free to suggest edits or changes to the following...):

The Seoul Subway (Lines 1-9) is actually operated by three different operators – Seoul Metro, Seoul Metropolitan Rapid Transit Corporation, and Seoul Metro Line 9 Corporation – but because these three operators function more like subsidiaries of the City Government of Seoul(??), it is counted together here as one system in the table.

Re: Incheon - It will still be listed separately in the table. The issue is whether it will be "counted together" with the rest for the purposes of the 'Note' we're going to attach to Seoul's systems. Because it is bundled together with the rest by Seoul Metropolitan Subway's operators, and because we have references (e.g. [17] ) that include it with the rest, I think it'll be hard to separate Incheon out from the rest in the 'Note'... --IJBall (talk) 01:22, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Can somebody help me out here? - In our previous discussion of Seoul, somebody pointed out that Seoul Metro and SMRT were basically subsidiaries of a larger conglomerate. But, in searching through this Talk page, I can't find who said that, and exactly what they said... Does anyone around here recognizing saying this a month or two back, and can you find where you said it (and what you said)?... This will help in crafting the 'Note' I'd like to attach to Seoul Subway (Lines 1-9). TIA! --IJBall (talk) 18:17, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Questions for @Terramorphous: 1) So, if I'm understanding you correctly, even Lines 1, 2 and 5-9 of the Seoul Subway itself actually share tracks with other rail lines?! If so, how much track sharing is there? (i.e. A little? A lot?) 2) Can we re-discuss the issue with Line 1? I believe originally we were only crediting approximately 8 km of Line 1 as being "metro"? Then, of course, Massy insisted upon counting the entire length of Line 1 as "metro"? Could you expand for us why only the approximately 8 km of Line 1 is actually "metro", and why the rest of Line 1 really isn't "metro"? Is the issue that the rest of Line 1 shares tracks with other rail? Or is it that the headways on the rest of Line 1 are (or were) more than 10 minutes thus violating the old "10 Minute Headways" rule?

Thanks in advance... --IJBall (talk) 00:28, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

To answer your question: No, I don't think that lines 2 and 5-9 share any tracks with any other lines. Epicgenius (talk) 01:08, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Sorry I left out Seoul Metro Lines 2-9 because I thought everyone agreed that they are metro lines, as stated by the sources, so there was no need to point it out. Reiterating: "The only bullet proof lines (e.g. electrified, no at-grade crossings, high volume of service no shared tracks with other railway services) are Seoul Metro sections of 2-4, SMRT Lines 5-8, Line 9 and Korail Bundang, Suin, Shinbundang, Ilsan (Korail section of Line 3), Gwacheon + Ansan Lines (Korail sections of Line 4).

Additional info on Lines 3 and 4: The entire line 3 and 4 is electrified, grade separated, frequent and segregated for non-metro traffic. Its just that Korail operates sections of the lines.

• Line 3 = 38.2 km Seoul Metro + 19.2 km Korail (Ilsan Line)
• Line 4 = 31.1 km Seoul Metro + 39.4 km Korail (Gwacheon + Ansan Lines)

As for Incheon. I would like to point out the the Foshan Metro is branded as part of the Guangzhou Metro with direct transfers and has the same fares system but is separated.Terramorphous (talk) 03:11, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Hmmmm... This reference ([18]) seems to list only the first part of Line 3 in with the "Seoul Subway", but appears to combine both parts(?) when counting Line 4. Odd...

Ah, and this same reference definitely nails down the Line 1 issue, as well.

Re: Incheon - OK, that's good enough for me: we'll keep Incheon out of the count, and keep it completely separate... --IJBall (talk) 04:28, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

[19] lists only the sections on Seoul subway owned by Seoul city. Ilsan, Gwacheaon, and Anshan are not counted.

Additional info on Line 1: Line one is an amalgamation of several Korail commuter railroads through operating into a common tunnel owned by Seoul Metro similar to the setups seen in Tokyo Japan.

From the North:

Gyeongchun Gyeongwon: Several at grade crossings in the outer sections. Frequent service minimum of 10 trains per hour all day in urban Seoul, decays to as low as 2 trains per hour in the outer sections. KTX high speed rail services planned to run on the line.

Seoul Metro Line 1: electrified, underground, frequent, no intercity or freight trains.

Gyeongbu: A mostly at grade railway line to Busan City in the southern tip of the Korean Peninsula. Important national trunk line with KTX, Saemaul-ho, Mugunghwa-ho, Nooriro intercity trains and freight trains sharing tracks in significant sections of Line 1 Local Trains. Line 1 Yongsan - Cheonan Express and Seoul - Cheonan Express Line services behave like regional rail trains, stopping only at major stations and reaching as far as Chungcheong nam, a province that neighbors the province (Gyeonggi-do) that neighbors Seoul (2 provinces away).

Gyeongin: A mostly at grade railway branch line with frequent service and occasional freight and intercity trains.

Janghang: Railway line exclusively in Chungcheong nam province with 1-2 Line 1 trains per hour. The Line has freight and intercity trains and KTX service is being planned. At this point Line 1 Trains are over 100km away from Seoul.Terramorphous (talk) 16:21, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

This is all good stuff - are there references for the info you've been providing (e.g. the Seoul Metro Line 1 info), Terramorphous? References for this kind of info would go a long way towards reversing the damage Massy has done to some of the Seoul Metro pages... --IJBall (talk) 18:03, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Alright, first of all. Let's stop inventing nonsense out of the air. And blatant lying have no place here either. Remember that *any controversial unsourced material* will be challenged and removed as per WP:Verifiability. Now, that everyone knows that, we can hopefully start a sensible and reasonable discussion on Seoul again. I will start with pointing out some very basic mistakes here:

• The reference everyone seems to quote [20] has no mention of this invented system called "Seoul Subway Line 1-9". Strictly speaking, it lists lines owned by Seoul City's government.
• That reference also says that Line 7 extension to Incheon is to open by late 2012, which it did. Since it is outdated, the true number is 327km.
• Gyeongchun has no grade crossings (Terra is still remembering the now passed away Gyeongchun line from the 80s) and will never have KTX service (which he is again confusing with Wongju-Ganneung Line, a separate line under construction exclusively for HSR)
• Gyeongbu Line for the metro service of Line 1 operate on a separate track, hence no track sharing.
• Gyeongin - Are you kidding me? Freight and intercity trains? Where is that nonsense coming from? This is an exclusive metro line with no other traffic whatsoever. This line is metro exclusive. How old are you? I mean like you seem to remember Seoul from the 80s or something.

Now, I have addressed the issues above assuming that track sharing is not allowed, which is an invented original research as raised by BsBsBs. Looking back at the sources..neither APTA nor USDT make any mention of that. The 2011 UITP source does mention something similar to it in a footnote saying that "networks that are functionally separate from the rest of the rail system" are basically metros from what I understand. Now remember they say "functionally" - not "track sharing". That's because the Korean government's legal law defines Line 1's Gyeongbu section for example, as a metro because it has a dedicated track on its own that follow the same path as the intercity trains next to it. In other words, it is functionally separate from the rest of the railway system and hence meets UITP's definition, which is very Eurocentric by the way. Seoul Metro and SMRT are members of UITP, so clearly track sharing is absent from their definitions. But functionally separate is present. And this is exactly how things should be done. And this 10 minute rule is completely absent anywhere in UITP/APTA or USDT and was voted out by consensus by multiple users (except IJBall). Legally, Incheon Subway is part of the metro system, so there's no doubt in including that as I have mentioned before with the legal sources. From what I know, Korail will be completely updating their website on April 1st, with the new updated data for their subways. So we will have direct numbers for all of Korail's metros pretty soon. The issue of sorting metros by systems and not by operators, is something that is not agreed with here. It would require a name change on this article. This will need external consensus and is something we will deal at a later time. Massyparcer (talk) 22:21, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

We already know your position - it's really not necessary to restate it, ad nauseam.

At this point, both you and @Terramorphous: need to produce references to back up your claims. At this point, we're not going with anything else.

Oh, and the discussion has already passed you by: references already have been produced that defines "metros" as precluding "track sharing". Please try to keep up... --IJBall (talk) 22:33, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Try to keep up? Who are you to advise nonsense to me when there are clearly no mention of track sharing in any of UITP, USDT or APTA's references. Please read the references if you haven't done so. If there are already references from UITP/USDT or APTA that explicitly mention track sharing as you claim, you better prove yourself by posting that reference right now. If you don't, you will prove that you haven't been following the discussion all along. In fact, you have clearly not kept up with the sources that were posted a long time ago - [21] and [22] just to name a few. Again this is gong nowhere without a single source verifying anything you or Terra are advocating. Like you say, a source trumps everything so you better stop inventing nonsense claims like "Seoul Subway Lines 1-9" that is non-existent in the very reference you quote. Massyparcer (talk) 23:34, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Your two references DON'T PROVE ANYTHING. They don't prove that the lines you are claiming are "metro" are actually metro. They don't prove that those lines don't share tracks with other rail. At this point, Massy, you need to put up or shut up - you need to produce references that actually prove your claims. Because we certainly aren't going to include any lines in the table just on your say-so.

And the second UITP reference that explicitly includes "reserved tracks" in defining "metro" is up-page - I'm sure you can find it if you look. --IJBall (talk) 00:36, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but still, some of these portions of these commuter rail lines are subway-like in character. They are not subway lines, though. Epicgenius (talk) 15:33, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Sorry in the Line 1 section I meant the Gyeongwon Line not Gyeongchun, my mistake. The Gyeongbu Line has significant track sharing portions [23]. I do not care if sections of the line have dedicated track every commuter rail system has that.Terramorphous (talk) 23:56, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

수도권 전철 = Metropolitan Train ≠ Subway Train as demonstrated by lines being listed in the table [24] are blatantly not rapid transit. [25] a source that just mentions subway... Terramorphous (talk) 00:20, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

I would like to remind users to remain polite and civil, and not let this escalate into a catastrophic nuclear war again. Try not to order people to "shut up" and questioning "how old are you?" No personal attacks or name-calling, etc. please. You can discuss things without shouting at people. If you need help with a dispute, read WP:DR. This page should not be a forum. Unown Uzer717 (talk) 04:19, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

One user has already been blocked for incivility here. I would suggest actually using the talk page for what it is intended for.

Anyway, while many of the named lines (e.g. Gyeongchun) are commuter rail, I'd say that some portions are subway-like. Not saying that these are subway lines, though. Epicgenius (talk) 15:30, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes they are extremely subway like. Just like every major commuter rail line in Japan. I think they (korail) should not count the in the final tally unless they are the korail lines we agreed on including (Bundang, Suin, Shinbundang, Ilsan (Korail section of Line 3), Gwacheon + Ansan Lines (Korail sections of Line 4). AKA Korail Lines that reach metro standards throughout their whole length.Terramorphous (talk) 19:11, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

So do we have references for the stats to any of those?... We have a good reference for Seoul Metro (Lines 1-9), but no references for stats for anything of the other of Seoul's various lines right now. I'm hoping to get references for those, so that we can finally finish Seoul off, and move on. --IJBall (talk) 20:03, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Refocusing

OK, so trying to get back on track here, let me ask the following:

• Is anything now missing from our three entries for Seoul in the table?

Do we have everything we need, or do we need to add in the Ilsan Line, and Gwacheon + Ansan Lines, to the table? (And would we add those to the Korail row? Or as separate entries?...) And, if so, does someone have some references to stats for these three lines? Or references for the stats for the Bundang Line, the Suin Line, and the Shinbundang Line, and AREX, either?

Once again, thanks in advance... --IJBall (talk) 00:58, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

So, are we done now? Or do we still need to add a few more lines?... --IJBall (talk) 12:19, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Summary

OK, no further comments here, so I think it's time to move forward, and wrap this up.

Based on this discussion, the following will be included in Seoul's combined listings:

1. Seoul Subway (Lines 1-9) - length = 316.8 km: called this based re:@Terramorphous: earlier Talk page comments that Korean Wikipedia has a page with this name about this system (found it: Seoul Subway {Lines 1-9} - Massy will object to both the name (though I don't see how, if this has it's own Korean Wiki page), and the length (though the 327 km length he keeps insisting upon using is completely unsourced currently - only the 316.8 km figure has sourcing...)
2. AREX - length = 61.0 km: this one's stats are currently unsourced
3. Shinbundang Line (NeoTrans) - length = 17.3 km: also currently unsourced
4. Korail's "metro" lines: Bundang Line & Suin Line (but this includes Ansan Line?), plus Ilsan Line (Korail part of Line 3) & Gwacheon Line + *Ansan Line (Korail parts of Line 4) (*but the 12.8 km Ansan line is already included in with the Suin Line's stats???) - length = (52.9 km + {25.9 km, or 13.1 km, or 9.5 km???} + 19.2 km + 39.4 km) for a total of {137.4 km, or 124.6 km, or 121.0 km???}: these are completely unsourced however, and I think these entries really, really need some kind of stats sourcing, especially since the Korail parts of Line 4 and the Suin Line seem to co-operate on a stretch of trackage which makes counting this portion really confusing

We are almost done with this - we just need an accurate accounting of the stats for the Korail entry (i.e. a proper summation of the stats for the four Korail lines...), and then we can finish up, delete the temporary 'Total' row, and attach the 'Note' for the Seoul systems. --IJBall (talk) 22:06, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Massy is correct that the source is missing the Line 7 Extension into Incheon. However like he repeatably said its OR unless it's sourced. This leaves us with 2 options.
1. keep the 316.8km until massey or one of us finds a reliable source for it.
2. take the 327km and put a citation needed tag.

as for the other lines...
AREX I am not worried about the citation as it will have HSR trains on it in June 2014.
The issue is the Korail Lines that reach metro standard. The Seoul Korail network is an ambiguous goo of metro-like commuter rail and metro standard lines. A source that stipulates them as A or B will be hard to find.Terramorphous (talk) 03:29, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Option #1 is always the way to go - a slightly "dated", but referenced, stat is always preferable to an unreferenced stat. As these systems expand, it will sometimes take up to a year (sometimes even more!) for the operators to update their websites with new figures. This is to be expected. But I'll take a slightly out-of-date but referenced stat over an unreferenced "stat" that some editor swears up and down is "accurate" any day of the week.

I really think that we need to stick to our guns on this issue, particularly - no stat on this list that is currently referenced should be allowed to be changed unless a new (or updated) reference can be provided for the new figure. That's got to be our official policy. --IJBall (talk) 04:40, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Separate reply: On Korail, I'm really not expecting we'll ever find a "definitive" reference stating "Korail's [Line A] achieves metro standards, while [Line B] is a commuter rail service..." (Well, at least, not until someone writes "the (English-language) book" on Seoul's rapid transit system...) At this point, I'll just take some references that give me some stats for these lines! so I can figure out a proper accounting of them. --IJBall (talk) 04:49, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

For sources I use [26] as it is an authoritative site for rail construction/plans/designs/drafts in South Korea. This site doesn't allow direct linking so you'll have to walk through a few steps if you want to confirm. Don't rely on the pictures as those are sometimes draft designs and not the final number. But truth be told sometimes these numbers and the numbers on the Korean wiki don't line up 100%.
a) For AREX: click "개통시기별 구분(개통내역)" (opened lines/construction complete). Scroll down to 2007 and click "인천 국제공화철도", 1차 (phase 1) is 40.3km and 1차 (phase 2) is 20.7km.
b) Shinbundang: click "개통시기별 구분(개통내역)", 2011 "신분당선"
c) Line 7 extension (7호선) & Suin Line (수인): under 2012
Find the name in Korean for other lines and do a copy/paste into the search function of your web browser. (I'm splitting my comment into two chunks to make replies easier. And if you really want a reply from me please also write a message on my page and I will reply when I see it.) ₪RicknAsia₪ 05:56, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes the Korean Wikipedia has 2 pages: the first is for Seoul city proper [[27]] and the second for Seoul Capital Area [[28]]. (That is like saying Los Angeles proper vs the greater Los Angeles Area. As LA grew it ate surrounding cities and they all merged more or less into one mega city. This is the same with Seoul; it ate Incheon, Ilsan, Bundang, etc) That is why the first Korean wiki link only has Lines 1-9 as a large chunk of those lines are within the traditional city proper. This is also a bit of a misnomer as a quick glance at Line 1 and 4 will show that only around half of these lines are located within Seoul. *shrugs*
Please note that you will never find a map with just Lines 1-9: even the Korean page has no map of only Lines 1-9. Whenever there is a map they include all lines as they count it has one massive system. Only exception is for Everline and U Line as they don't have transfers agreements. If you want to be picky and pull apart LRT or commuter rail I don't have the energy or the time to care too much, as long as the Seoul Metropolitan Subway page has all the information. Sometimes like "Entire system # km, (subway #km, LRT #km, etc). I don't care as much how it is broken down but I do care that the Seoul Metropolitan Subway page has the collective information (all lines) as that page is for the collective system.
Please understand I might not read this page again for awhile as I haven't the time and the strong opinions are turning me off. If you really want a reply from me please also write a message on my page and I will reply when I see it. ₪RicknAsia₪ 05:56, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Seoul City finally updated the total figure to include Line 7 extension to Incheon that opened in 2012. I made changes accordingly. See http://infra.seoul.go.kr/archives/1092. Massyparcer (talk) 22:20, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

OK, I think we're almost done here. Changes were made yesterday to the Korail entry - I think I included the consensus lines in with Korail. I'd appreciate it if someone could look these revisions over (esp. the new accompanying 'Note') to check for any errors, or needed improvements, etc. It would also be great if someone who can read Korean can look through the new reference I attached to the Korail entry, to double check stats for Korail, AREX, and Shinbundang Line (and also provide proper 'wrapping' for that reference...). Once that's done, we can write up a final 'Note' based on the Seoul 'Totals' row, and finally put the "Seoul Wars" (most recent edition!) behind us. --IJBall (talk) 02:44, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Done

And,  Done!

I can't promise that the sum of all of these lines is 100% accurate. But, at the least, the 'Totals' row for the various Seoul systems has been converted to a 'Note' attached to each of Seoul's metro systems. I will mention that even this combined tally still seems to put Seoul behind Shanghai and New York in terms of total system length and number of stations. FWIW.

But, hopefully, this will put a final end to the earlier "Seoul Wars"... --IJBall (talk) 23:07, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Beijing

When should the Beijing Subway be considered open to public and operational? It's 'operational' only on a trial basis in 1971 (when the city was still commonly known in English as Peking), and wasn't opened to the public until 1981. 116.48.155.127 (talk) 17:39, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

FWIW - and I know nothing about the specifics of Beijing's system - based on what you're saying, I'd move the opening year to 1981 - opening years should be based on when these systems opened for revenue service. We can always put the earlier dates in an attached 'Note'... --IJBall (talk) 20:07, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

That's what I think too. 116.48.155.127 (talk) 15:21, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Trial basis of Line 1 began in 1971 to a select group of people (probably politicians only; much like how the first NYC Subway Line was used as an exhibition for several months before opening). The full operation (when open to all members of the public) began in 1981. So I'd list 1981 for the official opening in the table. Epicgenius (talk) 13:41, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. 116.48.155.127 (talk) 15:53, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

I've done some more research and clarified the period of trial operations in the Beijing Subway article to clarify the misunderstanding about when the subway opened for "revenue operations."

When the Beijing Subway's first line began trial operations on October 1, 1969, it was a demonstration line for invited guests. On January 15, 1971, it opened to revenue service under trial operations. Initially, only members of the public with credential letters from their work units could purchase tickets, which cost Y0.10. This restriction was removed on December 27, 1972 so the subway was open to the general public. The subway line passed its final inspections and ended trial operations on September 15, 1981. Thus, 1981 marks not the time at which the subway began revenue operations but when the subway finally passed the inspection of its construction. During the trial operations period, annual ridership rose from 8.28 million in 1971 to 55.2 million in 1980. See the history section of the Beijing Subway for details and references.

Since the definition for the date of opening here appears to the start revenue operations not approval of final inspections, and because the Beijing Subway, owing to its unique history, was carrying several million passengers and charging fare from 1971, I've changed the date of opening back to 1971 and modified the corresponding note. ContinentalAve (talk) 17:25, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Will the Beijing Subway be separated by operator as is being done for the Tokyo and Seoul networks? Three lines are operated by HK MTR and the rest by Beijing Mass Transit Railway Operation Corporation Limited. If one is going to be consistent with separation by operator, then this should also occur here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.229.24.7 (talk) 13:39, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Yamanote

Should there be a note stating that Tokyo's Yamanote Line didn't start as a metro in 1925? 116.48.155.127 (talk) 15:21, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

• I support such a note. (It's not considered part of the greater Tokyo subway by most.) Epicgenius (talk) 15:57, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Next question: Should it be listed at all? (This is a serious question, as I know nothing about its particulars...) --IJBall (talk) 16:26, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

If not, why not?

The second question would be: When did it start to be considered a metro/rapid transit? 116.48.155.127 (talk) 17:59, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

To answer the first question, the reason for not including it is that, as one of the many JR East lines in the Tokyo area, it is often considered commuter rail, not metro, like other JR East lines. The reason it is sometimes included is the operation is segregated from other traffic, which runs on adjacent but separate tracks. I'm not sure if there are any connections between the tracks that are unused in normal service; I don't know the physical plant well enough to comment. That's a question that, if anyone can answer, it'd be appreciated.

The question of when it "became a metro" is a truly difficult one, and part of the reason its inclusion is a question. If treated as a metro line, it wouldn't be the only one where metro tracks run alongside conventional railway tracks, nor the only case of a former conventional railway line being incrementally upgraded to metro standards. But again, when did it become a metro line and not just part of the the JR East commuter network? It's a quandary that need an answer for this list's purpose. oknazevad (talk) 02:02, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

If it truly is a "metro" line (and that issue still remains vague, to my thinking...), in reading the Yamanote Line article, it would seem that 1988 would seem to be the "best" date to credit as the start of its "metro" service - quoting from the article:

The contemporary Yamanote Line came into being in 1956 when it was separated from the Keihin-Tōhoku Line and given its own set of tracks along the eastern side of the loop between Shinagawa and Tabata. However, Yamanote Line trains continued to periodically use the Keihin-Tōhoku tracks, particularly on holidays and during off-peak hours, until rapid service trains were introduced on the Keihin-Tōhoku Line in 1988.

So, based on that, I'm going to change the date to 1988, as it seems like that is when Yamanote was completely separated from other rail traffic. --IJBall (talk) 02:27, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

@Oknazevad: It's actually possible, from the eastern side of the Yamonote loop, to hop onto a Chūō-Sōbu Line train at Akihabara and go to the other side of the loop to go to Shinkuku. Passengers don't even have to get through any faregate/turnstile. This explains how the loop line is integrated with other JR East lines. 116.48.155.127 (talk) 15:05, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

@Oknazevad:There're probably some connections between tracks dedicated to different lines or, more precisely, services. 116.48.155.127 (talk) 15:05, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

I figured something like that. I would like to know exactly about the connections, but the fare integration is expected. Honestly, I have never liked including it; it's a part of the JR East commuter network, even if it is very metro-like in frequency and usage. I say we remove it. Then the "when did it become metro?" question, for which any date is at best a guess and close to WP:OR, is moot. oknazevad (talk) 02:12, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Fare integration shouldn't be a criteria at all. The London tube got fare integration with some regional/commuter trains too. In some other systems there are even integration between metros and feeder bus services. 116.48.155.127 (talk) 15:07, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Agree. Many, if not most, modern systems share fare cards or other payment systems with local buses and even commuter rail lines. The point here is that Yamanote is treated by just about everything outside this list as part of the JR East commuter network, even if demand is such that trains run with metro-like frequency. oknazevad (talk) 16:39, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

I was always wondering why the Yamanote line was added to the list. The general public considers it a metropolitan train line. It even has one at-grade crossing at Kumagome.[29] However that alone should not be the criterion of removal.Terramorphous (talk) 04:06, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Is there any at-grade crossing remaining on the Staten Island Railway? 116.48.155.127 (talk) 15:05, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Nope. oknazevad (talk) 02:14, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

But then again, the SIR doesn't collect fares except at two or three stations, so... Epicgenius (talk) 12:48, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

What does that have to do with it? It's a flat fare, the same as a standard subway fare. It's collected on entry for some, exit for others. There is a loophole for those not using the busiest stations, but I don't see how that remotely disqualifies it. And that's not the point of this section anyway. oknazevad (talk) 14:32, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

The point was that the existence of just one or two level crossings doesn't make a line not a metro. This is especially true for systems that were converted incrementally. Some substandard features were grandfathered if there are constraints to get rid of them. 116.48.155.127 (talk) 15:07, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes. And I agree with you that we cannot be too strict in thinking one or two crossings tosses an entire system out of the list (again, the Chicago 'L' is the go-to example there; no one would ever correctly claim it is not a metro, yet it has a couple of legacy crossings on the outer parts of the system). My response was in relation to Epic's mentioning of the fare collection on the SIR. I was confused as to his point, as I wasn't following his logic there. oknazevad (talk) 16:39, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

I was asking that question because all of the other metros in the world collect fares at all their stations, not just one or two. Epicgenius (talk) 18:17, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Well, does the lack of existence of fares disqualify a railway from being metro? Epicgenius (talk) 17:15, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

I see what you're saying. I don't think that matters; fare collection varies so much from system-to-system, I don't think an unusual set-up matters. Remember, people exiting at St. George or Tompkinsville do pay fares at the exit turnstiles, and exit fares are not unheard of historically. The SIR is not fare-free. You make an error in your assumption.

There is the loophole that people not originating or terminating at those stations can ride for free, but a) the vast majority of riders are connecting to the SI Ferry at St. George and b) many of those passengers are connecting to the NYC Subway in Manhattan, where, depending on direction of travel, they've either paid on SI and are getting a free transfer to the Subway or have paid on the Subway and are getting a free transfer to the SIR, courtesy of the MetroCard's transfer windows (the same one that allows the subway-to-bus transfers mentioned above). Again, not fare free.

And again, what does this have to do with the Yamanote line?oknazevad (talk) 18:49, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Should there be a note stating why it's 1988? 116.48.155.127 (talk) 15:45, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

In my opinion, no, because: 1) the 'Legend' is clear about what is meant by 'Year opened', and 2) it's unclear if Yamanote is going to be sticking around in this list for much longer anyway - if a current or recent Japanese reference is produced categorizing this line as something other than "metro" (e.g. if a Japanese ref. calls it "commuter" or "local" rail, or something), then I'd support tossing it from the list even if it technically meets the definition of "metro"... --IJBall (talk) 16:26, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Are the digits 1988 sufficient to inform readers about its nature as a system converted incrementally from conventional railway? 116.48.155.127 (talk) 19:23, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Follow-up: FTR, this system was just deleted from the list. Personally, I'm still on the fence about it's inclusion - if it doesn't share track with other rail, I'm having a hard time seeing why it shouldn't be included, unless its operator specifically categorizes it as "commuter rail". FWIW... --IJBall (talk) 13:48, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Note that Robert Schwandl is listing Yamanote line as metro-like system. --Jklamo (talk) 17:53, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

MTR

If the East Rail is counted as a metro system and part of MTR's metro system, MTR's starting date should be 1910 instead of 1979.

On the other hand, regarding the current note for the MTR, the East Rail didn't actually begin its metro service in 1979. It was done in stages.., first the old DMUs were replaced in stages by EMUs between 1982 and 1983. Then in the mid-1990s these EMUs were modified from a suburban or commuter configuration to a metro configuration. 116.48.155.127 (talk) 15:21, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

On the first point, from the 'Legend', it clearly states:

"Year Opened - The year the system was opened for commercial service at metro standards. In other words, parts of the system may be older, but as parts of a former light rail or commuter rail network, so the year that the system obtained metro standards (e.g. electrified) is the one listed."

So opening dates for metro systems are not when rail lines opened for service (i.e. as conventional railways), but when they achieved "metro standards".

On the second point, feel free to change the opening date to when you think it should accurately be (though it will definitely help if you can find and attach a reference that supports the new 'opening date'). --IJBall (talk) 15:45, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

In that case, when should be the actual year for the East Rail? 1982/83, where the railway was electrified in two stages, or 1996 to 1999, when the EMUs were refurbished (and thereby known as MLRs)? (By the way, those weren't DMUs.., but compartments with diesel locomotives.) 116.48.155.127 (talk) 17:59, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

I'd say that the line became metro in 2007, when the KCRC ceased operating. Epicgenius (talk) 12:53, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Nothing actually happened in 2007 apart from the passage of the relevant legislations and the change of logos and signs. They didn't even remove the faregates at interchange stations until late 2008. 116.48.155.127 (talk) 15:05, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Then I'd say 1982/1983, because that was when it was converted from DMUs (non-metro) to EMUs (metro). Epicgenius (talk) 13:50, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

As 116 already said, it wasn't DMUs. oknazevad (talk) 14:32, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Those EMUs weren't in metro configuration (well, by HK standard) until the mid 1990s, when they were refurbished. In the early days when the EMUs were in place, there were washrooms on some cars, and the number of cars on each trainset wasn't standardised. (On side note, is it a must for metros to be fully electrified?)

I'm still looking for the date when the KCR Corporation got their membership in the NOVA group. Not too sure if that's relevant. 116.48.155.127 (talk) 15:07, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

So far, all metros are fully electrified (at least on the service routes—the New York City Subway has several unelectrified connections like the Linden Shops, and the eBART system for San Francisco will not be electrified). Epicgenius (talk) 18:15, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

eBART is 100% going to be a light rail system. This is no different than, say Seoul Subway and the U Line - it doesn't matter that either eBART or the OAC will be in a "unified fare structure" with BART: neither can legitimately be considered a "metro" system. When eBART goes in to service, I plan on adding it to the List of tram and light rail transit systems, not here. (OAC I guess is really a "people mover" system...) --IJBall (talk) 19:45, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Would the date which they joined NOVA be relevant? 116.48.155.127 (talk) 15:39, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Seoul AREX

For anybody who knows, has AREX started sharing tracks with KTX or has the plan been cancelled? If it is sharing tracks, now is the time to take it out of the list. Unown Uzer717 (talk) 05:47, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Opening in a month. SourceTerramorphous (talk) 12:07, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

AREX started sharing tracks with KTX on June 30th, 2014, with over 20 services a day.

[30][31][32][33][34]

Removing AREX. Terramorphous (talk) 00:07, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Question: Will the entire AREX line be shared with KTX, or just a portion? If just a portion, how should we handle that? --IJBall (talk) 00:16, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Just past Digital Media City Station the KTX will interline with the AREX. So 80% of the line shares tracks with the KTX. I would just take the whole line off, both services are owned by Korail and its really no different from the RER or Crossrail.Terramorphous (talk) 15:39, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

London Underground

I was wondering what the point of the London Underground bit in the lead was? Isn't it kind of random, just there, with no other mentions of any other systems? Can it be removed? Staglit (talk) 00:25, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

It was added to verify the London "superlative". The other two "superlatives" (longest system, most stations) didn't really have good quality independent references at the time, and ended up being highly controversial (with a lot of arguments about Shanghai & New York vs. Seoul). But London did have a good independent reference for it's "oldest metro" status, which is why it's there. If someone can get some decent references for: highest ridership, longest system, and most stations, then those "superlatives" can be added back to the article's lede along with London. --IJBall (talk) 00:38, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Follow-up: I should add, that lede sentence about London's opening as a "metro" (and its reference) is also there as conclusive evidence for when people do silly things like change Athens' "open" date to 1869, or Sao Paolo's "open" date 1867 (like someone did recently), or even change London's "open" to 1863, that they're definitively wrong. FWIW... --IJBall (talk) 05:56, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but it DOES sound kind of silly, as it's a completely isolated sentence. Sounds like a boast, rather than information. --93.40.134.83 (talk) 08:52, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Editors can feel free to reword that, if they wish, just as long as the overall meaning isn't lost: that the London Underground is the oldest "metro" system" in the world, and it became a metro in 1890 with the opening of its first electrified underground line. The last part is important because anyone trying to change any opening date in this list to earlier than 1890 is, by definition, incorrect. --IJBall (talk) 16:50, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Then what about putting it in the legend section for opening date? I honestly feel very strongly that this information does not belong in the lead... There should be something general about all metro systems, as this is an article covering all systems, not something on just one system.Staglit (talk) 20:16, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

No opinion on that. Honestly, it would go better in the lede, if we could properly reference some of the other "superlatives". But I just looked at Kildor's UITP reference to see if it would help elucidate which metro system has the highest ridership, and it turns out it wouldn't as it bundles Tokyo's systems together and ranks Tokyo #1. So, right now, "oldest system" is the only "superlative" with a good solid reference. Now where that should properly go in the article?... [shrug] I dunno. I just know that we need to have it somewhere in the article, because we continually get people trying to change, for example, Athens' "open" date to 1869 and this referenced London "superlative" stuff just proves that that kind of thing is wrong. --IJBall (talk) 20:34, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Isn't there a to make certain thing invisible in the actual article but visible in the source code? We could put a warning like that in each section that may be affected (Like the Opening Date Section for Athens Metro). Isn't there already one warning editors not to put in Ottawa light rail in? If we really want to put the superlatives in, we could make a new section or put it under the section "Legend". To be honest, I don;t think its that important and shouldn;t be there, especially if there is only one super whatever... It's just messed up. Its not that much a problem, is it? ( You would know better than me probably) Staglit (talk) 20:49, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

No, I would oppose removing the London Underground sentence from the article entirely - it's referenced, and it's important. --IJBall (talk) 22:40, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

I would oppose it as well. It's just that someone has to write a more structured introduction, probably also using information from the 'Considerations' paragraph, and integrate these superlatives as informative sentences. --87.1.151.47 (talk) 13:32, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

On my 'To Do' list for this summer is to revise the 'Considerations' section for this article anyway. I'm hoping to get to that it the next month. I'll try to remember to take a look at this when I do... --IJBall (talk) 15:05, 23 July 2014 (UTC)