Talk:List of foreign A-League Men players

consistency of years

There seems to be a lack of consistency in the years. Some cases have 20XX–XX and some have 20XX–20XX. I would like to make it consistent, and I don't mind making the changes, but I wanted to have your opinion which one is preferable.

Rjbsmith, Macosal, Ian polsk, 2nyte? --SuperJew (talk) 19:20, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

I'd go 20XX–XX. Seems simpler, all years start with "20" anyway and it seems like the vast majority of pages in the category "Lists of expatriate association football players" do the same. Good idea to make the article consistent. Macosal (talk) 09:33, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Alejandro Gorrin/Alex Rodriguez

SuperJew,

I don't think it's clear cut that the player's "surname" is Gorrin. His own twitter and the team's squad listing both use Rodriguez. This article and this article both suggest that he recently changed how he himself is referred to (which explains inconsistencies which may exist). Certainly it seems that "Alex Rodriguez" is the way he will be referred to from now on. Macosal (talk) 08:58, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

I wouldn't go by the squad listing as it's not very accurate, also Riera is listed there as Vidal, but the other points seem fair go. --SuperJew (talk) 12:20, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Though UAL still list him as Alejandro Gorrin. --SuperJew (talk) 12:23, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Recent changes

SuperJew

A bunch to talk about here re the recent changes:

• See the intro: "If a player has not been capped on international level, his country of birth is used, except... those who clearly indicated to have switched his nationality to another nation." (Hersi - Ethiopia, Gan and Davies - Malaysia, Patafta - Laos were all included under this rationale amongst others of the recent changes). This would also therefore extend to players of youth teams.
• Whilst Jonas Salley is an Australian citizen, he is not eligible to play for Australia under FIFA eligibility rules, having not lived in Australia for at least five years.

Macosal (talk) 13:23, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

I did follow the intro.

• Hersi was born in Ethopia but capped internationally for Netherlands U21.
• Gan and Davies are eligible to play for Australia or Malaysia and have not been capped by either senior side yet. Therefore are not foreign under the intro clause "A player is considered foreign if he is not eligible to play for the national team of Australia or New Zealand."
• same for Patafa - he has not yet been capped by Laos senior side
• regarding Salley I was not aware of that. It says in his article he became an Aussie in 2008 (more than 5 years ago). Do you have references to him not living in Australia for at least 5 years?

--SuperJew (talk) 13:33, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

• Hersi has spoken often about his desire to play for Ethiopia ("If I can help them (Ethiopia), I will help them with all my heart." ([http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2014/apr/23/youssouf-hersi-interview source)).
• Sure that is the broad statement of qualification, but the more specific criteria below suggest that if a player clearly indicates a desire to play for a different nation then that should be used. It makes sense too - the mere fact that a player has not been selected for a national side shouldn't impact the fact that they have made a decision to represent that side. This also relates to a number of players who have played in nations' youth teams but not been selected for the seniors.

It would be very hard to find a source which confirms that Salley hasn't lived in Australia for 5 years, but looking at his career, the times he was at Australian clubs just don't add up to 5 years. (A 1/2 year stint in Victoria, ~2 years from 2007-2009 and 84 days with Gold Coast).

Macosal (talk) 13:50, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

• That is well and good, but seeing as he has been capped internationally for Netherlands U21, that carries more weight. And at the age of 32, I doubt he will receive a call-up to international football.
• That is fine that he wishes to represent another team, but desires don't carry weight. A player may change his mind, his desires are not legally binding in any way.
• I concede your point on Salley. re-adding him.

--SuperJew (talk) 14:28, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

I get what you're saying, but the article isn't necessarily what a player is legally bound to do, they are assigned to countries which best represent their nationality as defined by FIFA. Players who have "clearly indicated a desire to play for another nation," are not, for mine, best represented as "Australian" (whether or not they have reached some point of no return) (as reflected in the wording of the intro). As I see it, a player who is actively discussing his desire to play for a nation, or actively playing for the youth teams of a nation, should be classified under that nationality (as is done in squad lists on club articles). Macosal (talk) 14:38, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

Squad lists on club articles should classify the players under the nationality as defined by FIFA, not by the editor's whim --SuperJew (talk) 14:56, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

And they do (as of course they should). But for players with national caps at youth level, this is generally taken to be their national side (e.g. Perth Glory doesn't list Rostyn Griffiths as being English, nor should it). FIFA would allow the players to play for a number of sides, but the players, either by words or by action, have made it unambiguously clear what nation they intend to play for. The fact that they haven't yet been selected, due to timing or to ability, to play for that nation in a non-friendly match does not make that any less clear. Macosal (talk) 15:05, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

Players who play for a national side outside of their time in the A-League

SuperJew,

I definitely feel that players who play international football at any time should be listed under that nationality. The area of nationality is a complex one. Players may be citizens of multiple countries. They may become eligible or ineligible for a nation at any time. But the one, overarching element of certainty on Wikipedia is the national side a player represents. The relevant player here is Iain Ramsay. Throughout his time in the league, he was of dual nationality. Since, however, it has become clear that his single FIFA nationality is foreign. He was always of that nationality, but previously his dual citizenship meant that he was not listed here. The criteria on this page and several others like it do not reference when a player - in fact, the line "If a player has been capped on international level, the national team is used" seems fairly definitive. To not include Ramsay opens up several other complicated hypotheticals - should John Hutchinson's years be listed as "2009–2015" because from 2005–2009 he was both Australian and Maltese? Should Fernando de Moraes be listed, because his citizenship and subsequent participation for the Australian futsal team was after his time with the New Zealand Knights? Should Aleks Vrteski be listed, and should that be only for the time he played in the Macedonia youth setup? These and many more questions would be raised by taking time into account - something which is also not done on pages such as List of foreign Premier League players, which have far higher editorship than pages such as this. The simplicity of considering players who play international football to be "of that nationality" is a clear benefit in the obviousness of its operation. Cheers, Macosal (talk) 09:05, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

I feel we're only having this discussion since Ramsay started representing PHI internationally a short time after leaving the A-League. If he was called up 2 or 3 years after leaving the A-League, would you go and retroactively add him? It seems bizarre to me to list him as a foreign player when he didn't hold a visa spot. --SuperJew (talk) 09:34, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes I definitely would. This is not about occupying visa spots - if it is, then 1-2 dozen names should be removed from this list, from Manny Muscat (Australian citizen) to David Villa (guest player) to several similar others. This list is based on FIFA nationality (as stated in the lead), not the league's own administrative rules. Look at what is the established practice elsewhere on WP (generally the best way to work out what to do): List of foreign Premier League players, for example, lists Moses Ashikodi and Dexter Blackstock under Antigua and Barbuda, despite the fact that neither debuted for that nation until several years after their most recent EPL appearance (in fact, both were players for England youth sides when they played in the EPL). Macosal (talk) 10:39, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

I see your point. That is a fair comparison, though still seems extremely bizarre to me (both those cases an the Ramsay case) and makes me question the point of these pages. Also, I don't know how much stock I put in the EPL page, as they have bizarre things going on, such as Ireland not being considered a foreign country. --SuperJew (talk) 11:01, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

I have seen a few discussions there which suggest that Ireland is not included because of the weight of numbers that would create. I agree though - that's not really a valid reason to exclude them. The practice is fairly widespread, however: Daniel Gordon (footballer) is listed as Jamaican on List of foreign Bundesliga players despite his last Bundesliga match being in 2008, his Jamaica debut in 2013; Julien Faubert is listed on List of foreign La Liga players despite his last appearance in La Liga pre-dating his Martinique debut by 5 years. I haven't looked much further into it but I suspect that listing internationals by their country of representation is the convention across all pages of this nature. Macosal (talk) 12:42, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Okay, I've already said it seems bizarre to me. But as this seems to be the consensus across the pages, I won't revert it again. --SuperJew (talk) 14:51, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Jai Ingham for Samoa

@Macosal: You removed Jai Ingham from Samoan nationality and I wanted to discuss it. You wrote "Per Melbourne Victory on Twitter, Ingham is not part of the Samoa squad for the OFC Nations Cup", however I could not find a mention of Samoa by Melbourne Victory and also I'm pretty sure Twitter is not considered a verifiable source. Jai Ingham is mentioned as part of Samoa's team on Samoa Observer and the official OFC site listings (...the addition of Jai Ingham will also be turning heads. The Melbourne Victory midfielder has earned his first call-up to represent Samoa and will bring a huge amount of skill and experience to the squad.) Reverting until we clear it up. Cheers, --SuperJew (talk) 15:34, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

See this tweet. Note also that Ingham was not in the squad for the first match, which could indicate that he may have been named but pulled out and secondly, is still eligible for both Australia and NZ in any case. Macosal (talk) 00:43, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Do you have a verifiable source? --SuperJew (talk) 20:32, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Do you not think the Victory are reliable on this? We don't need a technically verifiable source to not include information. In any case, per the article itself, "A player is considered foreign if he is not eligible to play for the national team of Australia or New Zealand." Having not been involved in the first game at all, Ingham therefore does remain eligible and so shouldn't be included in this list (yet) anyway? Macosal (talk) 00:44, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

"A player is considered foreign if he is not eligible to play for the national team of Australia or New Zealand." Having not been involved in the first game at all, Ingham therefore does remain eligible and so shouldn't be included in this list (yet) anyway? Is a good point. On your other count we have verifiable sources that he was called-up though, that's my issue. But will remove him from this list until he is ineligible for Australia/New Zealand. Cheers --SuperJew (talk) 11:43, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Scope of article

Per Macosal's request on edit summary, bringing this to talk page.

Current scope states Clubs listed are those for which the player has played at least one A-League game, which means that players such as Traore and Steinmann who recently signed for Wanderers and Brisbane shouldn't have their new clubs listed until they make an appearance for that club. I suggest changing this to Each player listed has played at least one A-League game (or something similar), which would mean we only don't list players who haven't made an A-League appearance at all. I believe this is how currently editors edit this page (i.e. add newly signed clubs before the player makes an appearance for them) and also that this is the correct way since otherwise it looks like the list is missing information. Other thoughts please?

--SuperJew (talk) 17:44, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

As flagged in my reversion, I disagree strongly with this change. My reasons are set out below:

1. This is simply not what this list is about. If the scope of the list is "Foreign players who have played in the A-League", then at a fundamental level, why is it relevant or useful for a reader to know that a player signed for another club if they didn't actually play for them in the A-League? If anything, this is misleading rather than informative. It is also inconsistent if, e.g., two foreign players sign for a club, one having played for another A-League club, the other new. The former would be listed here as a player of that club while the latter would be omitted entirely? This is not useful or informative to readers.

2. Consistency with analogous articles. There is a well-established set of "List of foreign [competition] players", many of which have far greater levels of traffic and editors than this one. This list already varies (too much in my view) from the established form of the most notable/viewed/edited of those, being e.g., List of foreign Premier League players, List of foreign Bundesliga players, List of foreign La Liga players. All three of the aforementioned lists include only clubs for which players have made a league appearance and I see no reason why we should go against that WP:CONSENSUS here (see point 1 above).

3. This is not (despite the above suggestion) "how currently editors edit this page", and the list is inaccurate if this is the parameter you set. When you say this is "how currently editors edit this page", do you have examples of this? Other than yourself, I have not seen this at all (and would've reverted those edits as well, if I had). Further, there are a number of foreign players who have signed for A-League clubs and not made A-League appearances for them in the league's history, and this is not reflected in this list at present.

Macosal (talk) 03:55, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Go on, please explain Macosal: 2. Just interested to hear what variations there are? 3. Can you please show such examples for a number of foreign players who have signed for A-League clubs and not made A-League appearances for them in the league's history? --SuperJew (talk) 04:05, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Sure:

2. The other pages list the seasons rather than the years a player played for a club in the comp. I think this is simpler and more informative than just knowing the years a player was at a club (which may or may not span multiple seasons, and in which they may or may not have actually played).

3. Examples that come to mind include Felipe (North Queensland Fury), Sergio van Dijk (Adelaide in 2016). There may be a couple more but obviously it's rare for a foreign player not to appear for a club when signed, and rarer for that to be not their first A-League club.

Macosal (talk) 04:23, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

2. As it says on this page This follows general practice in expressing years a player spent at club, as is done on infoboxes etc, which is a much wider consensus then a few "list of foreign X league players" which probably had one start it and the rest copied.

3. Felipe never joined up with Fury, van Dijk joined Adelaide in 2016 on an ACL-only contract.

--SuperJew (talk) 05:09, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Fundamentally in relation to both the years and clubs listing issue: this article is about foreign players in the A-League, not foreign players contracted to A-League clubs. It logically follows to list the seasons and clubs in which the player played in the A-League. The wording you quote above was the result of your own change... The infoboxes you use as an analogy relate to players' careers as a whole, which is not what this list is about. Macosal (talk) 05:26, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Rahmat Akbari & Jack Hingert

Both care current Brisbane Roar players, with Akbari (born) in Afghanistan, and choosing to represent Afghanistan and even having played a couple of 'non-official' matches for Afghanistan. Whilst the Afghan national team is unlikely to compete in any matches official or other in the forseeable future, at least since the Taliban took over the country. Obviously has Australian citezenship, but having declared himself for Afghanistan, has the Afghan flag on the Brisbane team sheet, should he be listed?

Likewise, Jack Hingert. Born in London, England, raised in Australia but then discovered he has Sri Lankan heritage, and has announced his intent to play for Sri Lanka should be receive a call up. Again, plays under the Sri Lankan flag on the Brisbane Roar page. Nath1991 (talk) 04:18, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Hey mate, as it says in the lede of the page A player is considered foreign if he is not eligible to play for the national team of Australia or New Zealand. Therefore, Akbari and Hingert currently shouldn't be listed here until they are cap-tied to Australia. --SuperJew (talk) 06:36, 15 May 2023 (UTC)