Talk:List of Lebanese by net worth/Archive 1

Accuracy

According to a very recent list at forbes.com, the two richest people in Lebanon are Najib Mikati and Taha Mikati: [1]. Since this Wikipedia article has been reworked and updated very recently, without any sources, I wonder whether the list is in fact accurate, and how much of it consists of original research. Where do the figures come from? There are also a number of families included, without any indication of how those family fortunes are calculated (in the List of billionaires article, families are included if each individual has a fortune of at least a billion, per this). Bottom line is, this article needs sources... badly. --bonadea contributions talk 11:27, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

I see you've beat me to it! I agree, there's no justification to include families. Several of the indivuals on the list are also dead, one of them for over 50 years (I've removed them). It is much easier to verify the wealth of individuals - the list should stick to listing individuals. After all, can a family be a 'billionaire? Sionk (talk) 17:06, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Sorry I haven't responded earlier - there is some kind of rationale for including billionaire families in List of billionaires, but it seems rather tenuous for this kind of list. Absolutely agree with you that the names of long-deceased individuals do not belong on the list.

For the record, I removed this source, which appears to be a copy of the Wikipedia article as it looked a few days ago; it may or may not be a coincidence that one of the names of their main contributors (as per this info) is a name on the list of richest people.... --bonadea contributions talk 14:53, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

The question is whether this is a list of richest Lebanese people ever, or a continually updated list of living Lebanese billionaires. I'd prefer the former, after all Wikipedia isn't supposed to be a live news feed, is it? But I'll probably be defeated by Wikipedia 'recentism' *sigh* Sionk (talk) 16:12, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Well, if we have a list of the richest people ever, there needs to be a calculation of how much their fortunes back when they were alive would be worth in comparison to today's fortunes, and no source for such an adjusted list seems to exist. Furthermore, since this list is included in the "Lists of billionaires" template, it makes no sense to have this particular page show a different type of list than the other billionaires lists, all of which are about current billionaires. I see no reason to include Charles Corm in the list, and until there is a consensus saying that he should be there, rather than just one single COI editor including the name, I think it should be removed. There are a couple of other deceased people here as well, and perhaps they should also be removed (although their fortunes would be comparable to today's, given that they dies much more recently.) --bonadea contributions talk 12:45, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Completely agree, recentism, consistency and verifiability wins the day. I put Edmond Safra back because he died in 1999, but that is 15 years ago so I would understand if someone else thought that it was inappropriate. At least it is easy to tell that someone who had $2.5 billion in 1999 was mega rich. I'd be unable to easily make that comparison for someone who died in 1965, like Corm. Sionk (talk) 14:25, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

--GOODKARMA 11:04, 28 March 2014 (UTC)@Bonadea and Sionk. As I messaged you both, can we please bury the hatchet. We are NOT enemies and I harbor no other intention than making this list as ACCURATE as possible (just like you)! That means that I apologize for past coarse language. It was only a reaction to having all my hard work deleted under really lame arguments (with all due respect). And you should appreciate the (educated) work I put into this page. I happen to know Lebanese wealth inside out. It doesn't work according to Forbes lists or other BS lists that are known to be notoriously incomplete (when not downright WRONG). There are AT LEAST 5 Lebanese billionaires living in Africa that are not included in Forbes and co. nor the list I compiled. Why? Because these guys' fortune, well above 1 billion USD, is unknown. It could be 1, it could be 10. Their assets are "undercover". Also, and contrary to you Anglo-Saxon thinking, it is common practice in the Middle East to talk about FAMILIES. Forbes MENA (the regional version of Forbes) recently released its list of "RICHEST" and it was a list of... MENA's RICHEST FAMILIES!!! That's the way it works around here: FAMILY WEALTH! Because nobody, including Forbes (!) and hence I trust you will agree neither of you too, can or will ever be able to breakdown the wealth of individual family members. Again, this is how it works around here and if even FORBES approaches the "issue" that way, I trust that you guys will have the humbleness to respect that approach too. Getting to Corm, he was the exclusive agent of Ford Motor Cars for the entire Middle East. Everybody in Lebanon knows the Corms are worth billions. But they are a discreet family who have no interest in being in Forbes (which in turn has no way of measuring their fortune hence does not list them). Now either you want to make this page ACCURATE AND FAIR, either you want to just propagate s* intelligence and information, creating a snowball effect that just reinforces Forbes and co. s* lists. Also Bonadea and with all due respect, your date of death logic is BS! Either you consider a man dead and hence don't include him or his family in the list either you do (again, please read above my part on FAMILY WEALTH). But I don't think it is your prerogative to decide what length of death is acceptable or not! If you insist in removing Corm, then you MUST remove Safra and Hayek. If you don't, you have no consistency. And consistency is the key to credibility. And credibility is EXACTLY what Wikipedia lacks. So if your plan is to KILL Wikipedia (whose death I am convinced is around the corner as nobody I know trusts a word coming from Wikipedia, they just use it as a quick info "fix" on subjects of little importance to them), continue applying DOUBLE STANDARDS the way you do. I just HATE double standards. They are just about the biggest impediments to OBJECTIVE reporting. Over and out...

It would be easier to remove all the dead people, I agree. The redlinked people should probably be removed too, unless there is some proof they exist, are Lebanese and are mega wealthy - WP:LISTPEOPLE applies here. Information needs to be verifiable with no original research, or anyone could make anything up and nobody would be any the wiser. Sionk (talk) 14:41, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Redlinks are not a problem as such as long as there are sources for the people involved - of course, just as you say, if there are no sources they can't be included. I think, as we have already discussed, that a logical first step would be to remove all the people who are deceased, because including people who are not actual living rich individuals makes very little sense, and as mentioned before, it makes this list different from all the others (which also makes no sense). At the moment, that would mean removing Hayek, Safra and (yet again) Corm. --bonadea contributions talk 09:02, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

--GOODKARMA 16:48, 28 March 2014 (UTC)Dear Sionk (and Bonadea)! SO glad to be COLLABORATING with you instead of debating with you! Removing the dead people is an option but it would leave out 3 famously rich Lebanese: Hayek, Corm and Safra! Nobody will take this list seriously without them! Trust me. It's like having a list of "tech gurus" and not seeing Jobs because he's dead! Unthinkable. As to the redlinked, we all know that that only means that they are not on Wikipedia and is in no way a "stamp of approval/disproval"! Taha Mikati is redlinked although he is one of the most famous Middle East billionaires. He just doesn't have a Wikiepedia entry. His brother, Najib, does. Does it make sense to "ban" him?! I doubt so. The same goes for Haddad and co... Maya Papaya should be removed! I have yet to find ANY proof of her existence... So what do you think guys (girls?!)? I would say keep the dead Hayek, Corm and Safra. As to the redlinked, I believe Taha Mikati and Carlos Haddad definitely have to be in the list. All the other entries apart from those 5 who are either dead of redlinked should probably be removed. Just my humble thoughts. What do my partners (you) think?

PS: so much more exciting to write an article with the input of smart people than doing research on my own. Warm regards, GK.

Until you accept that Wikipedia needs information to be verifiable, we're not going to get anywhere. The most urgent tasks are (1) to write articles/find sources about the redlinked billionaires (assuming they are "famous") and (2) to find reliable proof of their wealth. Sionk (talk) 21:01, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

--GOODKARMA 12:49, 30 March 2014 (UTC)I agree that this article need total reworking. Now who is going to do it? I tried but you kept reverting my research... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bcd3174 (talk • contribs)

I've already added several news sources. You seem to be here entirely with the purpose of adding your grandfather to the list. If you're the expert, why not find some news sources as proof of the information on the list? Sionk (talk) 00:10, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

--GOODKARMA 09:40, 31 March 2014 (UTC)Sionk. I am not adding him BECAUSE he is my grandfather but because that is the TRUTH. Should I apologize for having a rich grandfather?! I can't believe I wrote you all those kind messages hoping we could finally work hand in hand and here you go again and just revert all my input with, as the only reply to my messages, a blunt one liner and a concealed threat?! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bcd3174 (talk • contribs)

--Bcd3174 13:52, 1 April 2014 (UTC)I will dispute any additions to the list as I just edited it unless you come up with proof of the previous 5 billionaires listed. I even took off my grandfather (to Sionk's and Bonadea's satisfaction). On Wikipedia, the burden on the proof lies on the person ADDING information. I am here to make sure that that burden lies on those it is suppose to. Over and out... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bcd3174 (talk • contribs)

--Bcd3174 07:32, 2 April 2014 (UTC)This list is a pile of BS! No Hayek?! No Safra?! You have just demeaned Wikipedia to the status of s* repository of FALSE information! Well done!

--Bcd3174 08:26, 2 April 2014 (UTC)This page is now and finally in accordance with several leading sources on Lebanese wealth. All entries are supported by reliable sources and the people in the list are all household names in Lebanon. We will never reach PERFECTION. This is probably as good a list as it gets. Please do not change it. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bcd3174 (talk • contribs)

• This source (mentioned above on this page) has been removed again, together with two entries supported by it. It does not appear to meet the requirements for a reliable source; the good people over at the reliable sources noticeboard might have more input on this, however. Since there is no consensus to include people who are deceased, Charles Corm (who died in 1963) cannot be included here. --bonadea contributions talk 09:56, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Input has been requested at the Reliable Sources noticeboard. --bonadea contributions talk 10:41, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't think that website should be used. It's a self-published source. Wikipedia uses third-party sources such as reliable well known newspapers like Forbes or the New York Times. I agree the list should only include living people. -- Diannaa (talk) 14:24, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, I'm glad to see that my thinking here seems to be in line with WP:RS. --bonadea contributions talk 20:45, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Interesting to see one of the main contributors to MENAopportunities.info is Charles Corm. Sionk (talk) 21:59, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Tried unsuccessfully to find a mention online of the Middle East Wealth Study 2014, which is the alleged source of the MENAopportunities list. However, I found a Middle East Wealth Study 2013 by Camden Wealth/QFC (Qatar Financial Center?). This describes people and families only in general terms, no specific wealth list. I'll be curious to know who published the 2014 study, and where. Sionk (talk) 22:59, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Through the Wall Street Journal, I located this link that offers a PDF with info on billionaires. But it requires giving personal information, including a (presumably valid) work email address (no hotmail or gmail). I am not about to give them this info so I don't know if their report contains anything useful. -- Diannaa (talk) 23:25, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Recent unsourced additions

I've reverted the recent raft of changes by IP 110.20.52.19, no new sources were provided and the information clearly didn't match with that in the existing citations. One would hope this is not the same editor at play who was the subject of this discussion (and repeatedly warned) last year! Sionk (talk) 12:56, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

--Homsi3174 (talk) 09:41, 23 June 2015 (UTC)This list is completely wrong! Look at other Lebanese Richest People lists! Keeping it this way only hurts... Wikipedia's credibility.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Homsi3174 (talk • contribs) 09:41, 23 June 2015 (UTC) Comment moved from top of page

Which other lists, specifically? In what way is it wrong? --bonadea contributions talk 14:51, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Remember that each person's net worth changes daily as the stock market goes up and down, so there's always going to be discrepancies, unless someone is prepared to do regular updates. I have updated the table to agree with the 2015 Forbes static list. Some of the people are not on the Forbes list, presumably because Forbes could not get the data. So alternative sources were used. Some of the data may be out of date. For example, the most recent data for Issam Fares is from 2011. -- Diannaa (talk) 19:48, 23 June 2015 (UTC)