Talk:List of Janya ragas

Adding tamil raga names

The recent edits using edit summaries starting with Adding tamil raga names has been reverted. It is not appropriate to add names in one particular language, which will lead to every language closely associated with Carnatic music, namely Kannada, Telugu, Malayalam and Sanskrit to be added here. It does not serve much purpose in the English Wikipedia. It is suggested that the list of janya ragas be compiled in appropriate languages in the language specific wiki and a inter-wiki link be provided in this page. That is more appropriate and compact.

Also, kindly note that the size of this list is already very huge. Adding languages will increase size beyond reasonable sizes and make it difficult for all users and editors.

VasuVR (talk, contribs) 04:02, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Key to the note names as ratios or scale degrees in the 22 note sruti scale

Can you add some kind of key so that readers from outside the tradition can translate the note names to pitches or intervals?

I found a key here:

Indian Melody: Introduction to South Indian Classical Music

It's exactly what I need, a way to convert the note names into ratios - except it doesn't seem to work for this article. So what am I missing, what went wrong?

E.g. r4 isn't used in any of the scales. A bit surprising as r4 is 9/8 is a simple ratio to reach, as it is a pure fifth above the Pa.

Also in the picture of the keyboard here:

Notation in Carnatic Music

r3 is shown as a D# but in the translation table it is a 10/9 which is a variation on D, and the order of the notes doesn't match, e.g. g1 at 32/27 is a pythagorean minor third, so should be a D#, but shown as D, and lower in pitch than the r3.

Apart from that it's ideal.

The reason I'm interested is because I want to add them to my Tune Smithy microretuning software - which already has an option to play a mode that ascends one way and descends another way, so all I need is the translation of note names to the sruti ratios (or to sruti scale degrees) and I'll be able to write an importer to import all the ragas into the program - and also let any users enter their own ragas using the same notation.

However, I would expect that a key like this would also be of interest to anyone else reading this article who isn't yet familiar enough with the tradition to know how to translate the names into musical pitches.

Robert Walker (talk)

The Raga page has more information on the notation used in Carnatic music. Lot of updates are probably required to all related pages to give full details about Carnatic music's nuances. VasuVR (talk, contribs) 15:54, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the link, and yes a page like that would be fine.

However that page doesn't answer my question. Can I try again?

If I take e.g.

Raga Name	Ascending Scale(ārohanam)	Descending Scale(Avarohanam)
1 Kanakāngi	S R1 G1 M1 P D1 N1 S	S N1 D1 P M1 G1 R1 S

Can I translate that notation into a list of ratios (or sruti degrees)?

Or is e.g. R1 sometimes played at different ratios to the Sa on different occasions even though notated in the same way?

The reference you gave maps the names to the nearest Western equal tempered notes, but I'm looking for something more refined so that I can import them into my program and set them to play different pitches from each other. It would be easy to just translate them into the nearest 12 equal notes, but would lose a lot of the subtlety of the ragas.

For instance in this list of sruti here:

Shruti_(music)

do the abbreviations used here like S, R1, G1 etc refer to particular notes in the list of 22 sruti on that page? Or is it some different system, am I making a mistake by trying to connect the two together?

Does the question make sense anyway?

I should explain, my Tune Smithy program can play scales using any tuning (using pitch bends or tuning tables) - it isn't limited to twelve equal.

So it will be able to play e.g. 10/9 accurately at a different pitch from 9/8 and so on. So if I can import these ragas into Tune Smithy, you can then use them pitched accurately to the pitches of the 22 srutis.

Also it can do them so they ascend one way and descent the other way as well.

So that's why I'm interested in the exact pitches, and need to have them before I can import the ragas into the program - if I do that is.

Robert Walker (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:58, 27 August 2010 (UTC).

Some attempted answers to your queries from an amateur...

Can I translate that notation into a list of ratios (or sruti degrees)?

For most Ragas that may be true, but there are quite a few that have very subtle difference in shruti (frequency) that may not be easy to notate. There could be some Ragas that need to play R1 in a certain way to (Gamak - oscillation, meend elongation, etc.) to get the right effect of the Raga (lest it be considered / sound like another Raga which is quite close in structure). Experts can add / correct me here.

Or is e.g. R1 sometimes played at different ratios to the Sa on different occasions even though notated in the same way?

Answered above. Also, please note that R1 in this page is different from the R1 in 22 shruti table.

do the abbreviations used here like S, R1, G1 etc refer to particular notes in the list of 22 sruti on that page? Or is it some different system, am I making a mistake by trying to connect the two together?

They are different. This page uses the Carnatic music notation of 16 notes that fit into 12 shrutis (R2 == G1 use same shruti, R3 == G2, etc. and equivalent notes will not occur together in a Raga obviously).

I hope you spend more time in reading up further from books or interacting with some experts / teachers. Theoretically it is possible to use programs, but at the same time the differences that you anticipate & exist in Indian classical music, between notation and actual intonation, is not going to be easy to incorporate in simple manner. As mentioned, some of the Ragas would need additional work (programming?) before they can be close to what is considered as the correct rendition of the Raga.

Hope this helps a bit. VasuVR (talk, contribs) 04:14, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your help. Yes I expect only to be able to program an approximation to the subtleties of the tunings for the Ragas, just that hopefully it can be a bit better than 12 equal.

I wonder if perhaps I can phrase the question a different way.

Starting from Sa as the 1/1, then the question is, how do you get to e.g. R1 or R2 via pure fifths frequency ratio 3/2 and pure major thirds frequency ratio 5/4?

So for instance the two Ds most often used in just intonation music are 9/8 and 10/9. You get to the 9/8 by going up by two pure fifths from Sa. So if you go C G D as pure fifths, the D will be a 9/8. You get to the 10/9 by going down by two pure fifths, then up by a major third. So if you go C F Bb D again using pure intervals for all the steps you end up with the 10/9.

So in the same way, if you get from the Pa to the R2 using a pure fifth, then the R2 is a 9/8, by definition of what 9/8 is and of what a pure fifth is.

So if you know the musical intervals between the notes, you can work out what all the ratios are easily.

Since I expect the 16 tone system uses pure fifths and pure major thirds, then I'd expect it to be a subset of the 22 tone sruti system which also uses those intervals.

Here is a lattice diagram of the 22 tone system, which shows how the notes are connected together as intervals in the sruti system. Shruti Lattice Diagram & Shruti Ratios if you scroll down the page you'll see it below the Modern Indian Gamut lattice diagram. It shows the way the notes of the 22 sruti system are interrelated as intervals of 3/2 (pure fifth) or 5/4 (pure major third).

What I want is a similar diagram for the 16 note system.

So using the 22 note lattice combined with the keyboard drawing here:

Notation in Carnatic Music

I can get a good guess at the 16 note system. A reasonable first guess might be to take the 22 tone system - and whenever there is more than one option choose the simpler of the two possible ratios. Also I wonder if perhaps some of those ragas with slightly different inflections of a note might use the more complex of the 22 srutis close to the same pitch??

Anyway here it i:

16 note system (GUESS)

Sruti	Frequency ratio	Frequency (Hertz)
Sa	1/1
Ri 1	16/15 (or 256/243)
Ri 2	9/8
Ga 1	10/9
Ri 3	32/27
Ga 2	6/5
Ga 3	5/4 (or 81/64)
Ma 1	4/3 (or 27/20)
Ma 2	45/32 (or 729/512 (or possibly 64/45))
Pa	3/2
Dha 1	8/5 (or 128/81)
Dha 2	5/3
Ni 1	27/16
Ni 2	9/5
Dha 3	16/9
Ni 3	15/8 (or 243/128)

(with the more complex versions of similar pitches from the 22 sruti system shown in brackets)

Lattice diagram would be same as for the 22 srutis, except you leave out some of the notes

   10/9---5/3---5/4--15/8--45/32
   / \   / \   / \   / \   / \
  /   \ /   \ /   \ /   \ /   \
32/27-16/9---4/3---1/1---3/2---9/8--27/16
  \   / \   / \   / \   /
   \ /   \ /   \ /   \ /
  16/15--8/5---6/5---9/5

for

   G2-----D2----G3----N3----M2
   / \   / \   / \   / \   / \
  /   \ /   \ /   \ /   \ /   \
R3----D3----M1----S------P----R2----N1
 \   / \   / \   / \   /
  \ /   \ /   \ /   \ /
  R1----D1----G2----N2

Where if you go EAST on the lattice diagram you go up by 3/2 pure fifth If you go NORTH EAST, you go up in pitch by 5/4 pure major third.

So for instance, to get from S to M2 you go up a pure fifth from S to P, then up a pure major third 5/4 from P to M2.

You could also get to it by a pure major third from S to N3 and then by a pure fifth from N3 to M2. And so on.

Does that look about right to you?

I will ask around. Perhaps Haresh Bakshi might be a good person to ask, had some contact with him in the past. I can also post a question to the Yahoogroups tuning list. Used to be active there myself a few years ago and often have many knowledgeable people though like many internet forums they tend to come and go, so probably not many of the same crowd that were there say 10 years ago.

Robert Walker (talk) 08:19, 28 August 2010 (UTC)