Talk:Laura Jane Grace/Archive 2

Encourage hair growth?

I caught the article, under the 2012-present section, says "Grace is currently undergoing medical transition. She is receiving hormone replacement therapy to encourage hair growth and increase breast size.[1] She also has mentioned her plans to undergo electrolysis.[3]" The problem is the "encourage hair growth...undergo electrolysis." Men who go on female hormones have a decrease in body hair, and why would hair growth be encouraged when you'll have electrolysis to remove it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.184.50.46 (talk) 12:42, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Fixed. Raquel Baranow (talk) 19:46, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Birth Name II

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I agree with the above. Her birth name isn't relevant and shouldn't be included. This notion of irrelevance is applicable to the article of any other trans person on Wikipedia. --23.241.118.134 (talk) 21:34, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Agreed, the birth names of trans people are irrelevant and unimportant and should not be included in their articles, especially not so prominently. 2601:9:80:B24:9963:BFAC:F13A:741A (talk) 21:40, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

her birth name does not define her and has no place in her article — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.82.249.249 (talk) 21:49, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Her birth name is irrelevant to the article and should not be included. 75.72.162.64 (talk) 22:06, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

I agree, her birthname should not be included in the article. 160.39.110.13 (talk) 22:39, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Birth name certainly isn't lead paragraph material. Mentioning that she's trans doesn't require mentioning her birth name. Alyxr (talk) 22:13, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Yeah birth name isn't an important fact establishing who someone is and what they've done, it absolutely doesn't belong in the lead at the very least Tombomp (talk/contribs) 22:16, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Her birth name is completely irrelevant to what's being discussed in the article.2602:306:C526:4800:19A0:1496:D491:AA0E (talk) 22:19, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Her birthname is irrelevant and should not be included in the article.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.92.61.179 (talk)

Agreed. Birth name is not first paragraph material. Current, legal name and/or aliases currently in use, such as pen names, might be necessary for adding context to an identity, but birth name serves no purpose here. Vergess (talk) 22:21, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Not only is it not necessary, including her birth name is against wikipedia's editing rules: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOS:IDENTITY#Identity There is no reason it should be in the article. Girlsimulation (talk) 22:21, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Her birth name is a mis-representation of who she is today, and is functionally irrelavent. Bump it down a little, it doesn't need to be front and center, as it doesn't say anything useful nor positive about her.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.234.41.150 (talk)

Her birth name is a mis-representation of who she is today, and is functionally irrelavent. Bump it down a little, it doesn't need to be front and center, as it doesn't say anything useful nor positive about her. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.234.41.150 (talk) 22:26, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

including her old name is unnecessary. im also not sure its necessary to have pictures from before transition. 84.50.65.99 (talk) 22:29, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Birth name is irrelevant, pretransition pictures also irrelevant. 108.35.40.156 (talk) 22:42, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Birth name is irrelevant70.179.23.72 (talk) 23:42, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Both the birth name and pretransition pictures are irrelevant — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.42.45.41 (talk) 00:16, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Agreed, birth name and pretransition pictures are irrelevant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.42.8.143 (talk) 00:34, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Disclosing her birth name has no point and isn't respectful at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.45.85.230 (talk) 00:55, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Well, welcome new editors! Gosh, there sure are a lot of you. All turning up at this article's talk page, saying the exact same thing, making your comments every few minutes over the course of just over three hours. What an extraordinary coincidence.--Trystan (talk) 01:58, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

I also don't think it's relevant or appropriate to center Laura Jane Grace's birth name. Trystan, a post encouraging people to comment on this talk page is circulating on another site. This is my first Wikipedia edit, and is probably the first time some of these other people have commented on a Wikipedia talk page. Is "already inside the Wikipedia community" a prerequisite for having one's input regarded seriously? 173.76.235.251 (talk) 03:19, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Hey Trystan. What, then, is your stance on including LJG's birth name in the lead section? There's clearly quite the vocal consensus here saying that including her birth name in the lead section (or even at all) is inappropriate and/or irrelevant. I'm sure we'd be open to dialoguing with you about this if you for some reason disagree with us. 2602:306:C526:4800:6C8E:DF42:BDCC:ED10 (talk) 03:56, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

No, you don't need to already be an editor for your input to be seriously regarded. However, canvassing support for a particular position in a way that is not transparent or neutral is considered inappropriate.

More to the point, we don't vote, and I don't think there is anything resembling what Wikipedia considers a consensus in the above. Simply stating a position without supporting it through references to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines doesn't achieve anything, no matter how many people repeat it. The current consensus was established in a previous discussion. I wouldn't say that discussion was necessarily Wikipedia's finest hour, but I do tend to agree with the position stated by Bearcat and Joe Decker at the end of it. Grace achieved fame under a different name, and people searching that name need to know that they have found the right article.--Trystan (talk) 04:12, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Grace achieved fame under a different name, and people searching that name need to know that they have found the right article." that's what redirects are for. Bblocks (talk) 11:06, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes. Redirects and an explanation as to why that redirect exists within the article itself. 72.200.151.13 (talk) 15:49, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

Requested Edit

The caption of the photo in section "2006–11: Second marriage, mainstream success and Heart Burns " halfway down the page reads "Grace (as Tom Gabel) performing with Against Me! at the 2007 Coachella Valley Music and Arts Festival". It is weird and unnecessary to use Grace's birth name here as if 'Tom Gabel' is some character she played. Please remove, thanks 81.187.23.213 (talk) 10:34, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Since in 2007 Grace was identifying as Tom Gabel, it would be confusing and misleading to use her current name. To cite a congruous example, it would be akin to going to the Kareem Abdul-Jabbar article and removing the name Lew Alcindor from the caption of the picture of his early days at UCLA; he wasn't using that name at the time, as the text makes clear, so the picture would be clashing with both the running prose and the timeline of his life. Same here. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 23:04, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Blade, please read Wikipedia:Gender identity. Georgia guy (talk) 23:08, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

How about "Grace (before transitioning) performing with Against Me! at the 2007 Coachella Valley Music and Arts Festival"? Raquel Baranow (talk) 23:28, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Actually, I don't like that either . . . since the date (2007) is mentioned, no identifying is needed. Raquel Baranow (talk) 23:39, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

So are gender transitions somehow more important than religious conversions in your eyes? That's certainly the implication. Also, MOS:IDDENTITY explicitly says to avoid confusion; having what is clearly a picture of a man with a woman's name below without qualifiers is absolutely confusing. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 00:59, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Remember that a trans woman is a woman throughout her life, only in the wrong body before it was changed with surgery. Georgia guy (talk) 01:40, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Anyone reading the second paragraph will understand: "Grace publicly came out as a transgender woman in 2012,[2] ceasing to use her birth name and taking the name Laura Jane Grace." Raquel Baranow (talk) 01:46, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

While that may most frequently be the case, that assertion would come as news to people such as Gregory Hemingway or Dee Palmer. In any event, there's still plenty of possibility for confusion given the number of times Grace alternated between cross-dressing and insisting on identifying as a man. It was not as simple as it's being presented on this talkpage. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 01:56, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Those two articles (Gregory Hemingway, Dee Palmer) look pretty good (see also the Talk page discussions and the archive for the latter), we should take their advice. I'll fix it in a few days if there's no further objection. Raquel Baranow (talk) 02:17, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Deadnaming

There is one instance of deadnaming in here i think, just before the origin of the name laura is described (i'm on mobile and can't check back but i think it refers to her as "gabel" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.37.210.55 (talk) 13:36, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

True Trans

Shouldn't this article mention her work on the web series True Trans? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 32.214.150.221 (talk) 15:40, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

It does, now.. Lifesfun (talk) 00:26, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

Contributors

This page is being camped by a single user who seems to be taking ownership of the article, removing everything he does not feel belongs in the page, including the birth name of the artist. Transgendered or not, there is no precedent to not including a birth name in the article. --Spence The Chef (talk) 23:46, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

--- Multiple people are trying to stop the abuse of a trans woman. Don't try to claim it is a single individual. Criffer (talk) 18:35, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

how is the page being controlled by a single user? it's constantly being vandalized by various others.. Lifesfun (talk) 18:41, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Stop dead-naming her

Every time someone removes the abusive information, someone puts it back. Look at another trans person's page - Janet Mock has no deadname on her article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Criffer (talk • contribs) 23:18, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Thank you. I've tried to explain this as well.. someone shot me down saying I was "taking control of the page." I was merely trying to remove the vandalism from this page. Lifesfun (talk) 23:51, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Dead naming is not "encyclopedic information" either. That seems to be the latest argument Lifesfun (talk) 18:13, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

If anyone has a better idea to resolve this, please share.. the back and forth is clearly getting nowhere. It's not even about whether her birth name is there or not, it's really a matter of basic human decency. Why is this such a difficult concept? Lifesfun (talk) 19:49, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

what is the point of putting her birth name under "alias"? That's inaccurate considering it shows up in the Infobox as "also known as" and she hasn't gone by that name since early 2012. Lifesfun (talk) 19:54, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

"Also known as" doesn't have a due date. If she was known by that name professionally (and she was) then it's an alias. Simple as that.

We are putting an encyclopedia together, which means that widely published relevant information is perfectly legitimate. Laura doesn't give two shits about the thing you call "dead naming"; she is quite comfortable with her earlier career name Tom Gabel. I don't see why you are so militant against this basic biographical fact. Binksternet (talk) 20:18, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

I'm not "militant" against anything.. and I'm not the only person who seems to understand that dead naming is abusive. Lifesfun (talk) 21:09, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

An alias is a false name, used to conceal one's identity. There's a big difference between a person with an alias (such as a crimminal) and an out trans person. Lifesfun (talk) 21:45, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

No, alias is a parameter in the infobox, which returns "also known as x". Nothing there about concealing an identity. Laura has also been known at Tom Gabel, professionally, which none of you are denying. Please see Template:Infobox_musical_artist#alias which is a simple parameter to list significant alternate names used by a musician. There's nothing abusive about this. It's very basic encyclopedic information. Binksternet (talk) 01:52, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

I agree with Binksternet, Grace was well-known as Tom Gabel and that the proper place is with aka, rather than "Birth name" Raquel Baranow (talk) 05:17, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

On second thought, after looking at Caitlyn Jenner's article I struck where I think the "deadname" should be mentioned. See also WP:Gender identity/common name you can't forget one's prior identity. Raquel Baranow (talk) 05:47, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Other examples are the Wendy Carlos, Mina Caputo, Dee Palmer and Jayne County biographies. They put the birth name right at the beginning. Binksternet (talk) 06:48, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

More examples include The Wachowskis, Chelsea Manning, Alexis Arquette, Lauren Harries, Chaz Bono, Andreja Pejić, and there is also this Cosmopolitan interview with Laura where it states - Laura was comfortable using her former male name and corresponding pronouns.-- Isaidnoway (talk) 15:46, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Even without the Cosmo interview, I think our policies on this make sense and are neither abusive or nor unkind. But the point is moot. The purported "victim" of this "unkindness" stated explicitly, on her official twitter feed, that she is untroubled by references to her prior name. The Cosmo interview links directly to the tweet. End of story as to this article. Criffer, if you disagree with current policies, there are methods for trying to change them. Edit-warring on one particular article is not one of those ways. David in DC (talk) 17:19, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

how about a compromise? simply have the birth name in the infobox, rather than all through the article. It would look more professional. Lifesfun (talk) 18:32, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Simply having her birth name in the Infobox would list it for informational purposes. Having it all throughout the article honestly looks unprofessional. Are we ever going to come up with a compromise for this? Lifesfun (talk) 19:08, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

The purpose of an infobox is to summarize article contents. See WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE. If there is no consensus – and no policy-based reasons – for removing birth name, it should stay. Politrukki (talk) 19:26, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

That's what I meant. The idea would be to keep it in the Infobox, but remove all other references to her former name from article. If it's listed in the Infobox, why would it need to be all throughout the article? Lifesfun (talk) 20:10, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

To explain the context. Binksternet (talk) 20:19, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

there's a section about coming out as trans in 2012.. doesn't that explain the context? Lifesfun (talk) 20:29, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Other than the formatting issue what was wrong with listing the family members in the Infobox? I thought that would've been relevant information. Lifesfun (talk) 20:31, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

The template infobox musical artist does not have a family parameter. That's the template being used right now. Another possible template is infobox person which includes parameters for children/parents/mother/father/relatives but anybody listed in these parameters should have a Wikipedia article written, or they can be listed if the person is particularly relevant to the topic. The desired "infobox person" parameters can be inserted as a module, or the infobox can be changed to "person" and the musician parameters inserted as a module. Binksternet (talk) 20:43, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Recent edits.. infobox

Why not add the family members/ relatives to the Infobox? Most biographies of living people do have them in there. Lifesfun (talk) 01:56, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Then "most biographies" are in violation of the instructions at Template:Infobox_person which says the names of children, parents and relatives in the infobox must be themselves notable, or they must be particularly relevant to the topic. Which does not describe Laura's parents and children. Binksternet (talk) 02:14, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Ok.. I can't take them off of there without getting blocked. I've already gotten a 3RR notice, which wasn't planned, I screwed up a few things and ended up redoing them Lifesfun (talk) 02:37, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Done. - Ryk72 ^'c.s.n.s.' 03:11, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Thanks Lifesfun (talk) 03:19, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Category:Lesbian musicians

I think this category should be added to her page since she's been pretty clear about that on multiple occasions (including her True Trans series). The fact that she is transgender does not exclude her from it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.41.207.219 (talk) 23:28, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Or maybe just LGBT musicians, considering that's not on there for some reason. Lifesfun (talk) 21:26, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Lead / birth name/ misgendering

Why do you insist on having "born male, male child" etc written in there? That doesn't even sound encyclopedic. Lifesfun (talk) 21:56, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

WP:LEAD says that the lead section is supposed to be a summary of the text found in the article body. Which means that the article body should have every fact in it. Which means that the lead section and the article body are going to have redundancy. I am in favor of telling the reader that Laura was assigned the male gender at birth. It's not a suprise, or remotely controversial in this biography. Binksternet (talk) 22:12, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

never said it was controversial, just thought it sounded unprofessional that's all, considering it's pretty much implied in the article anyway. Lifesfun (talk) 22:19, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 August 2016

Please change that she is dating Beatrice Martin as they broke up as verified by her twitter:

Coeur de pirate ‏@beatricepirate 12h12 hours ago So that the media can stop talking about it, I'm single again. 22 retweets 123 likes Reply Retweet 22 Like 123 More Merrychristmashaha (talk) 16:11, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. KGirlTrucker81 ^{talk what I'm been doing} 19:49, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

It says "from july to august".. therefore implying that they broke up.. Wouldnt it be better to keep it the way it is? Lifesfun (talk) 16:20, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

Does a relationship that short even merit inclusion? It seems pretty insignificant to me. -- Irn (talk) 17:10, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

I mean it was pretty widely covered on the internet, but there's not a lot of info, hence the reason why theres only a paragraph. I don't think the length of the relationship has to do with anything, does it? Lifesfun (talk) 19:18, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

Per WP:NOTNEWS, the fact that it was covered widely on the internet isn't sufficient.

More relevant to me is WP:BLP, which states, "Biographies of living persons ("BLPs") must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid" and later gives an example: ""John Doe had a messy divorce from Jane Doe." Is the divorce important to the article, and was it published by third-party reliable sources? If not, leave it out. If so, avoid use of "messy" and stick to the facts: "John Doe and Jane Doe divorced.""

Taking all this together, my take away is that if a relationship isn't a significant part of a person's biography, it's best to leave it out. And how important can a relationship be if it lasted less than two months? I think there would need to be some compelling evidence there. (It might make sense to mention it in Martin's article since it kind of coincided with her coming out as queer, for example.) -- Irn (talk) 19:32, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

Theres was another article where Laura says that they were together for over 6 months, but like you said it technically can be considered irrelevant info. Lifesfun (talk) 20:44, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

The only reason it seemed important was because of the timing. Lifesfun (talk) 20:55, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

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More Tranny sources

See source dump at bottom of Tranny: Confessions of Punk Rock's Most Infamous Anarchist Sellout  czar 15:16, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

Coeur de Pirate relationship

I'd suggest to make some mention of Grace's relationship with Coeur de Pirate -> https://www.vogue.com/article/coeur-de-pirate-coming-out-as-queer — Preceding unsigned comment added by Helevorn (talk • contribs) 20:57, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Article cleanup

Hi there. Just wanted to put a note to recognize that I made a bunch of edits to this page because it seemed like the entry was presenting information in a very non-standard way, especially how the sections were organized and what content was in which sections. I think this made it somewhat more difficult to add content that I believe is missing from the page, and unfortunately the entry is not as neutral and fact-based as it could be. It seems super bloated and disorganized and I would like to address these concerns. Also, I think as it stands there are too many quotes within the entry (not the side ones, but the actual text), and maybe possibly the entry could do with some curation of citations to make it so the most important and relevant citations are supporting the facts.

Grace's life and journey as both a trans role model and activist -- not to mention her talents as a very successful and popular musician -- are super important, but I think the entry is not reflecting her notability as well as it could. I was hoping to work on it further but didn't want to do this without putting a note here, and if there are major objections to cleaning up the page, I won't do further work on the page. I don't want to step on anyone's toes here, but I would like to see the entry improved and made so there's some space for future work. -- BrillLyle (talk) 07:18, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

Birth name

Hi, I have no experience editing wikipedia, but I was just wondering what is the purpose of leaving Laura's birth name up. Legally speaking, if she changed her ID she must've also changed her birth certificate, meaning that she was not born Thomas, but Laura. Even if that weren't the case, it seems to me like useless and harmful information. Laura Jane is not an artist name, it's her actual name, so this case is entirely different from the usual "ARTIST_NAME (Born REAL_NAME)" format. I think it should be removed altogether from the beggining of the article. That's it, thanks for reading.190.175.88.100 (talk) 21:12, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Birth names are commonly indicated on Wikipedia, even if a person has changed their name legally. For transgender people, the guideline is to put their birth name in the lead if they were notable by that name before coming out (see Chelsea Manning or Caitlyn Jenner, for example). MOS:BIRTHNAME is the relevant section of the Manual of Style for this. Also useful: MOS:GENDERID and the essay Wikipedia:Gender identity. In my opinion, mentioning a person's birth name is useful if they were previously well-known because older sources might still use that name and it could be confusing to a reader to come across a source that only refers to Tom Gabel if they didn't know that person is now named Laura Jane Grace. clpo13_(talk) 22:12, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

clp013 is correct about this. The core issue here is that because Laura Jane Grace was already notable, and already had a Wikipedia article, under her old name before coming out as transgender, we have to acknowledge the old name — any source published before she announced her name, for example, will refer to her by her old name, so a reader who doesn't already know it will get confused by those sources. In cases like that, the rule is not "eliminate the dead name at all costs" — it is that we acknowledge the person's old name and just avoid giving it WP:UNDUE weight by overusing it beyond the minimum amount necessary. Even if we tried to hide it, in fact, we'd fail: a reader could still find it out simply by examining the article history, because the article existed under her old name long before she announced her transition — and even after she announced her transition, we still held off on moving the article for a week because we weren't entirely sure whether Grace was going to be her last name or a second middle name that was still going to be followed by the surname Gabel, so we waited until the sources were clarifying that point better than they were at first.

In a nutshell, people who were already notable/famous under their former name before coming out as transgender have to be handled differently than people who weren't. The rule can't be "bury her deadname" if the general public already knows her deadname, because she was already famous under that name before coming out as transgender at all. Bearcat (talk) 04:52, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

At the moment, her former name (Thomas Gabel) is NOT shown in the article. Given disussion above, I don't know why. Acwilson9 (talk) 09:14, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

It was reburied by another editor just two days before your comment is why. Bearcat (talk) 21:46, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 May 2019

Please change to add a reference immediately following these lines to further document gender identity in lyrics for this period of her life. I do not believe this citation to be controversial or require consensus but rather further to document and confirm the entry as written:

Throughout this time Grace made oblique references to gender dysphoria in song lyrics, including "The Disco Before the Breakdown" ("I know they're going to laugh at us / when they see us out together 'holding hands' like this"), "Violence" ("You've been keeping secrets [...] Nothing but shame and paranoia"), and "Searching for a Former Clarity" ("In the journal you kept by the side of your bed [...] confessing childhood secrets of dressing up in women's clothes / Compulsions you never knew the reasons to").

2600:1700:F91:3B10:EC69:D729:BA53:9C28 (talk) 23:46, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

 Done NiciVampireHeart 18:24, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 24 May 2019

Grammar adjustment to add Grace's name in Early Life section.

Sentence reading: "In contrast to her time in Italy, has said that moving to Naples was a difficult adjustment."

Should be changed to: "In contrast to her time in Italy, Grace has said that moving to Naples was a difficult adjustment." 12.215.7.90 (talk) 23:19, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

 Done Thanks for pointing this out! aboideau^talk 23:27, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 May 2019

"In 2000, Grace convinced Bowman to move to Gainesville and began teaching him how to play Against Me! songs on guitar" should swap the pronouns. Instead of "began teaching him how to play Against Me!", it should say "began teaching her how to play." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Carrots084 (talk • contribs)

 Not done: Grace taught Bowman how to play "Against Me!" songs - she taught him. The article is correct. NiciVampireHeart 15:33, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 August 2019

Hello, I like to ask for change all the pronoun on Laura Jane Grace article, SHE is a TRANSWOMAN and has to be refered as SHE all the time, doens't matter what was her old name. As a trans person, i think its offenssive to even have to ask something like this. Please, change it. Bakuniet (talk) 21:16, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

That is what the article currently does in all cases except direct quotes. – Thjarkur (talk) 21:45, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 02 October 2019

It's bad enough that Wikipedia guidelines deadname her at the start of the article. She is deadnamed again in a recent revision to the Early Life section. I'd like to see at least that second deadnaming removed (by which I mean remove "Thomas James Gabel") because the second one is redundant. I'm a confirmed user, but I'm putting this here on the talk page for consensus instead of just making the change 152.9.36.244 (talk) 12:58, 2 October 2019 (UTC).

 Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. This article is using the standard format for biographies. aboideau^talk 13:05, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 December 2020

Collapsing a copy of the page's wikitext that was placed as part of the edit request to avoid flooding the talk page

Laura Jane Grace Grace performing in 2014 Born (1980-11-08) November 8, 1980 Fort Benning, Georgia U.S. Spouse(s) Tiffany Danielle Kay ​ ​ (m. 2000; div. 2004)​ Heather Hannoura ​ ​ (m. 2007; div. 2013)​ Children 1 Musical career Origin Gainesville, Florida U.S. Genres Punk rock Occupation(s) Singer, songwriter, guitarist Years active 1990s–present Labels Misanthrope Crasshole Plan-It-X Records No Idea Records Sabot Fat Wreck Chords Sire Records Total Treble Bloodshot Records Website www.againstme.net Laura Jane Grace (born Thomas James Gabel, November 8, 1980) is an American musician best known as the founder, lead singer, songwriter and guitarist of the punk rock band Against Me!. In addition to Against Me!, Grace fronts the band Laura Jane Grace & The Devouring Mothers, a solo project she started in 2016. Grace is notable for being one of the first highly visible punk rock musicians to come out as transgender, after she publicly came out in May 2012. Early life Grace was born Thomas James Gabel in Fort Benning, Georgia, the eldest child of United States Army Major Thomas Gabel and Bonnie Gabel (née Grace). Grace has a brother named Mark, who is six years younger. The family moved frequently between military bases due to their father's military career, living briefly in Fort Hood, Texas; Pennsylvania; Ohio; Germany; and at a NATO post in Naples, Italy during the Gulf War. When she was 8 years old while living in Italy, Grace bought her first guitar from Sears mail order with money saved from mowing lawns. Grace initially took guitar lessons from an army officer's wife, but ended up teaching herself how to play. When she was 12 years old, Grace's parents had an acrimonious divorce, which led to Grace and her brother moving with their mom from Naples, Italy – where their father remained – to Naples, Florida to live with their maternal grandmother. In contrast to her time in Italy, Grace has said that moving to Florida was a difficult adjustment. Constantly bullied at school, Grace was drinking alcohol and taking drugs by age 13, substances which included pot, LSD, and cocaine. Grace was arrested for possession of marijuana at 14 and went on to struggle with addiction for years. Grace also regularly skipped school, eventually dropping out of high school. Grace has suffered from depression, attributing her "first memorable bout" to feelings of gender dysphoria after her first sexual relationship. She also noted that depression occurs in both sides of her family, with her grandmother (also called Grace) being admitted to hospital regularly. Career While in junior high school Grace became a fan of punk rock, attracted to the nihilistic and anarchistic ideals of the genre. At age 13, she played bass in her first band, known as both the Black Shadows and the Leather Dice as they had never agreed on a name. The band was formed with members of her youth group at church. Their first gigs were at church talent shows playing Nirvana and Pearl Jam covers. An arrest at age 14 crystallized her aversion to authority: having gone to the beach on Independence Day 1995 to watch fireworks, "I walked up on the boardwalk, and a cop was like 'Hey, get off the boardwalk; you're blocking the flow of traffic'. So I turned around and got off, and he came up to me again and was like, 'Get off the boardwalk.' And I was like 'I'm off the boardwalk.'" Grace claims to have then been slammed into a police car, thrown face-first to the pavement, jumped on, hogtied, carried "like a suitcase", put in a holding cell, not allowed to call her mom at that time, charged with resisting arrest and battery, placed under house arrest for the summer, and required to do 180 hours of community service, all because "I was a dirty, grubby little punk kid with black spiky hair who hadn't washed his pants in a year." Grace's mother hired an attorney, whom she could ill afford, who took the case to court and lost. Grace was charged as an adult and ultimately convicted of both felonies. Grace later said the experience "changed my life. [It] politicized me." "I have an inherent trust of mankind. I think authority and government base their power on violence. I refuse to recognize anyone's power over me." After that incident, Grace came to identify with British anarcho-punk band Crass, calling them "to me, the best band to ever blend music and politics": "I felt like Crass' music legitimately made a change. They really backed up what they were doing. I saw that writing a song against something was just as valid as standing on a street corner holding a sign." Grace befriended James Bowman when they met on their first day of freshman year at Naples High School; the two have been close ever since." We were both punk rock kids with spiky hair and more belts than necessary", recalls Bowman. "We just hung out and smoked pot and did normal kid things." Grace's first tattoo—a Crass logo on the right ankle—was done by Bowman, though she later covered it up with a tattoo of the Rebel Alliance symbol because Bowman had been drunk and inked it sloppily. At age 16, Grace published a zine called "Misanthrope," which dealt mostly with political issues of the time. The "highlight of her career" was interviewing Bobby Seale. Grace played bass in a band called the Adversaries with Dustin Fridkin and a "revolving cast" of drummers from 1994 to 1996. The lineups were not stable, and the band had various names, including the Snot Rockets, Upper Crust, and eventually the Adversaries. The Adversaries released one (obscure) demo. Their "crowning achievement as a band" (according to Grace) was playing at "The Hardback" in Gainesville, FL. The breakup of the Adversaries led to Grace briefly playing in a band called Common Affliction in 1996. The ending of Common Affliction led to Grace recording the first Against Me! demo tape in December 1996. 1997–2005 Further information on the band: Against Me! In 1997, at age 17, Grace dropped out of high school and began writing songs, naming the musical project Against Me!. Moving to Gainesville, Florida at 18, she began performing as Against Me!, either alone on an acoustic guitar or with friend Kevin Mahon accompanying by drumming on pickle buckets. Her songs drew influence from early acoustic protest music, covering topics such as class struggle. Early Against Me! shows were played at dive bars, laundromats, and anywhere else that would allow Grace to perform, to audiences of a few or even zero. Making ends meet by working odd jobs, dumpster diving, selling blood plasma, and living in a low-rent house with twelve roommates across the street from an experimental waste dump, Grace also volunteered with nonprofit socialist groups such as Food Not Bombs. She was arrested again at 18 for obstruction of justice and resisting arrest without violence: "I was picking up [Mahon]. He was like, 'Pop the trunk—I want to throw some stuff in there.' I was waiting in the car and I saw two cop cars come up behind me. I got out and they had my friend on the ground. I went up to the first officer I saw and said, 'Excuse me, officer, what's going on?' He's like, 'Down on the ground—you're going to jail.' I started to ask another question and he grabbed me, slammed me into the cop car, and arrested me." In 2000, Grace convinced Bowman to move to Gainesville and began teaching him how to play Against Me! songs on guitar. After some early EP releases, Against Me! developed into a full band consisting of Grace, Bowman, bassist Dustin Fridkin, and drummer Warren Oakes. Their debut album, Against Me! Is Reinventing Axl Rose, was released in 2002 through local independent record label No Idea Records. With Fridkin replaced by Andrew Seward, the band signed to DIY indie record label Fat Wreck Chords for 2003's Against Me! as the Eternal Cowboy and 2005's Searching for a Former Clarity. The name As the Eternal Cowboy was symbolic of the old fashioned concept of the Western cowboy, always wandering the plains lost and lonely. It was envisioned by Grace as a concept record about love and war. Searching sold over 65,000 copies and was their first album to chart on the Billboard 200, reaching 114. Against Me! supported it with a tour of all 50 U.S. states. As Against Me!'s popularity increased, Grace felt alienated from the male-centric punk scene: "With the band especially, I felt more and more like I was putting on an act – like I was being shoved into this role of 'angry white man in a punk band.'" The stresses of the band's tour schedule, coupled with going through a divorce at age 24, contributed to her addiction: "I was just getting fucked up all the time: drinking, drugs, whatever. I felt unhealthy and depressed about so many things". Throughout this time Grace made oblique references to gender dysphoria in song lyrics, including "The Disco Before the Breakdown" ("I know they're going to laugh at us / when they see us out together 'holding hands' like this"), "Violence" ("You've been keeping secrets ... Nothing but shame and paranoia"), and "Searching for a Former Clarity" ("In the journal you kept by the side of your bed ... confessing childhood secrets of dressing up in women's clothes / Compulsions you never knew the reasons to"). To help escape the stress and depression, Grace spent 18 months living in hotels on the outskirts of Gainesville while writing the next Against Me! album. 2006–2011 Against Me! at the 2007 Coachella Valley Music and Arts Festival In December 2005, Against Me! signed to Sire Records, a subsidiary of the Warner Music Group. With increased mainstream exposure, Grace swore off cross-dressing and other expressions of femininity: "You go through periods of binging and purging. I was 25, we were about to go on a long period of touring, and I was like, 'That's it. I'm getting rid of all this. I'm male, and that's it.'" Against Me!'s first major-label album, 2007's New Wave, brought the band mainstream success: It debuted at no. 57 on the Billboard 200; featured their first charting single, "Thrash Unreal", which reached no. 11 on Billboard's Modern Rock Tracks chart; and was named as Spin's album of the year. The song "The Ocean" directly referenced Grace's gender dysphoria, with the lyrics "If I could have chosen, I would have been born a woman / My mother once told me she would have named me Laura / I would grow up to be strong and beautiful like her / One day I'd find an honest man to make my husband". Though Grace anticipated "completely outing myself" with the song, no one involved with the band seemed to pick up on the lyrics' literal meaning. She also wanted to cross-dress in the music video for "Thrash Unreal", but the label's A&R representative vetoed the idea. In August 2007 Grace was arrested in Tallahassee, Florida, on charges of battery, following a confrontation with a coffee shop patron after Grace tore down an article about Against Me! that had been hung up and defaced to mock the band. Grace allegedly knocked a cup out of the man's hand, then forced his head into the wooden counter. She admitted to intentionally knocking over the cup but denied hitting the man, and was released on bail the following morning. "We were playing at this place The Beta Bar," she said, "and this coffee shop next door was having a protest show against ours. I mean... go protest the fucking war!" Grace's solo EP, Heart Burns, was released in October 2008. Timed to coincide with that year's United States presidential election, the EP's songs addressed the country's political and economic climate, criticizing presidential candidate John McCain and the trial of environmental activist Eric McDavid. "I wanted to do something that was the complete opposite of New Wave in the sense of approach", she said. "I didn't want to really think about it. I didn't want to obsess about anything. I just wanted to go in and play songs. I wanted to record because it'll be fun, and that's what this is supposed to be about." Grace supported the EP by performing on The Revival Tour with Chuck Ragan of Hot Water Music, Tim Barry of Avail, and Ben Nichols of Lucero. Against Me!'s fifth studio album, White Crosses, was released in 2010 and became their most successful, reaching no. 34 on the Billboard 200. By that September, however, Grace began taking week-long writing trips alone, checking into hotels dressed as a woman and writing a concept album titled Transgender Dysphoria Blues, about a transsexual prostitute. The record was positively received. Against Me! cancelled a series of tour dates in October and November 2010 due to "a culmination of circumstances engulfing us", and left Sire/Warner. In 2011, Grace purchased an abandoned post office in Elkton, Florida, converting it into a recording studio called Total Treble and launched an accompanying record label for future Against Me! releases, Total Treble Music. The first album recorded at the studio was Cheap Girls' Giant Orange (2012), which also marked Grace's first experience as a record producer. Total Treble Studio closed in 2013 after being destroyed in a storm. 2012–present In spring 2012, Grace performed on the Revival Tour with Chuck Ragan and Cory Branan. In July 2018, it was announced that Grace would release an album in the fall of 2018 under the name Laura Jane Grace and the Devouring Mothers on Chicago-based Bloodshot Records. The record, Bought to Rot, was made with bassist Marc Jacob Hudson and drummer Atom Willard (Against Me!, Angels & Airwaves, The Offspring). The release will include a tour with a three night weekly residency in Chicago. Writing In 2015, Grace wrote a column called "Mandatory Happiness" for the Vice Media publication Noisey. On November 15, 2016, Grace's memoir Tranny: Confessions Of Punk Rock's Most Infamous Anarchist Sellout, co-written with Noisey editor Dan Ozzi, was published. Much of the book is based on Grace's journals, which she'd kept since third grade. The book was known under a working title of Kill Me Loudly or Killing Me Loudly in 2015, when Grace was working with a different publisher. Politics Grace has said that she is an anarchist. After leaving Naples, Italy and moving to Naples, Florida, Grace said that she discovered punk rock music around the age of 13. Around the age of 15 or 16 years old, Grace said that she also discovered the anarcho-punk and activist punk rock movements, which she found appealing for its feminist and anti-hate stance against racism, homophobia, and its embrace of body liberation. Grace said she has been influenced by these concepts as core values since learning about them. A band that Grace cites frequently as an example of politics and music is Crass, an English art collective and punk rock band formed in 1977. However, as Against Me! became more successful, the constraints of the punk rock scene, which often had rigid sets of rules, were difficult to embrace, especially during the times when Grace was struggling with gender dysphoria. The Against Me! song Stop! was part of the Rock the Vote campaign to encourage voting in the 2008 US presidential election. At a May 2016 Against Me! show in Durham, North Carolina, Grace set her birth certificate on fire in protest of the North Carolina bathroom bill. Grace said "Goodbye gender" during this act of protest. In 2020, Grace played at a fundraising for Bernie Sanders's campaign for the 2020 Democratic Party presidential primaries. Other work Grace participated in a 10-part documentary called True Trans where she interviewed "gender variant people from all walks of life" to allow them to tell their stories, in addition to telling hers. In 2015, the show was nominated for an Emmy for New Approaches: Arts, Lifestyle, Culture. In 2015, Grace worked with Joan Jett and Miley Cyrus to make videos for the "Happy Hippie Foundation" to raise money for homeless LGBT youth. Personal life In 2000, Grace married Tiffany Danielle Kay. The marriage ended in divorce four years later in 2004. In March 2006, while touring as an opening act for Alkaline Trio, Grace met visual artist Heather Hannoura, who designed merchandise for Alkaline Trio and other bands. The two spent the summer together on the Warped Tour, began living together, and got tattoos of each other's names. They married in December 2007, after a year-long engagement. Grace and Hannoura have a daughter together, Evelyn, born October 30, 2009. Grace's feelings of dysphoria "started coming back really strong" about the time Hannoura became pregnant that February, but were not acted on. The family moved to St. Augustine, Florida, in 2010, when Evelyn was about a year old. The couple separated and then divorced in 2013. In 2006, Grace became a vegan. Grace has lived in Chicago since 2013. She released a song “I Hate Chicago” in 2018 that criticised many aspects of the city. Transition The cliché is that you're a woman trapped in a man's body, but it's not that simple. It's a feeling of detachment from your body and from yourself. And it's shitty, man. It's really fucking shitty. —Grace, describing gender dysphoria in 2012 I would describe it as a feeling of misalignment. Where the gender you feel (internally) doesn't match up with your assigned gender at birth. When you're too young to know what it is, it turns into shame. —Grace, describing gender dysphoria in 2014 Grace experienced feelings of gender dysphoria from a young age, citing them as her "earliest memories". Grace publicly came out as a transgender woman in May 2012. Grace announced plans to begin transitioning. Having been inspired to come out after meeting a transgender Against Me! fan, Grace had informed the rest of the band that February. At the time, she also mentioned plans to undergo electrolysis. She has said she may consider breast implants and facial plastic surgery, but has remained apprehensive about chondrolaryngoplasty and bottom surgery, in 2012 saying, "I don't give a fuck if I lose my penis. It's just fucking scary because of the surgery. I've needed to have my wisdom teeth removed for five years, and I still haven't." She said in a May 2012 interview with Rolling Stone that she would live as a woman and undergo psychotherapy for a year before considering sex reassignment surgery: "Right now, I'm in this awkward transition period. I look like a dude, and feel like a dude, and it sucks. But eventually I'll flip, and I'll present as female." In 2015, Grace said, "I think it's perfectly valid [for a trans person] to never undergo bottom surgery". The singer now goes by the name Laura Jane Grace. "Laura" is the name her mother would have chosen had she been assigned female at birth; "Jane" was selected simply because she thinks it's pretty; "Grace" is her mother's maiden name. Grace and her wife are currently going through divorce proceedings, and have been separated since August 2013. Grace plans to continue performing in Against Me!, saying "However fierce our band was in the past, imagine me, six-foot-two, in heels, fucking screaming into someone's face." In response to Grace's announcement, a number of figures in the punk community voiced their support, including musicians Brian Fallon, Brendan Kelly, Franz Nicolay, and Mike Shinoda; cartoonist Mitch Clem; and mixed martial artist CM Punk. Herndon Graddick, President of the Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation, hoped that Grace's public profile would increase public awareness and acceptance of trans people: "[Laura] is displaying extraordinary courage by coming out as transgender after already establishing herself as a rock star. For many of the band's fans, this may be the first time they're actually thinking about transgender people and the bravery it sometimes takes in order to be true to yourself." In May 2012 at a San Diego Against Me! show, Grace performed under her new name for the first time. Grace confirmed in January 2019 that she underwent facial feminisation surgery in December 2018, as part of her transition. Discography Against Me! Main article: Against Me! discography Studio albums 2002: Against Me! Is Reinventing Axl Rose (No Idea Records) 2003: Against Me! as the Eternal Cowboy (Fat Wreck Chords) 2005: Searching for a Former Clarity (Fat Wreck Chords) 2007: New Wave (Sire Records) 2010: White Crosses (Sire Records) 2014: Transgender Dysphoria Blues (Total Treble, Xtra Mile Recordings) 2016: Shape Shift with Me (Total Treble, Xtra Mile Recordings) Live albums 2006: Americans Abroad!!! Against Me!!! Live in London!!! (Fat Wreck Chords) 2015: 23 Live Sex Acts (Total Treble Music) Demo albums 1997: Against Me! demo (self-released) 1998: Vivida Vis! (Misanthrope Records) 2009: The Original Cowboy (Fat Wreck Chords) 2011: Total Clarity Fat Wreck Chords) 2011: Black Crosses (Total Treble, Xtra Mile Recordings) EPS 2000: Against Me! (2000 EP) (Crasshole Records, Sabot Productions) 2001: Crime as Forgiven By Against Me! (Plan-It-X Records (CD) / Sabot Productions (7")) 2001: Against Me! (2001 EP) (Sabot Productions) 2002: The Disco Before The Breakdown (No Idea Records) Solo Studio albums 2018: Bought to Rot (with The Devouring Mothers) (Bloodshot Records) 2020: Stay Alive (Polyvinyl Record Co.) EP 2008: Heart Burns (Sire Records) Filmography 2014: True Trans with Laura Jane Grace (TV Series documentary) on AOL Studios – 10 episodes Awards 2014: The Advocate, 40 under 40 2014: OUT, OUT 100 2015: Emmy Award, News & Documentary Emmy Award, New Approaches: Arts, Lifestyle, Culture (nominee) for True Trans 2017: Alternative Press Music Awards, Icon Award Selected works and publications Mandatory Happiness column Grace, Laura Jane (19 February 2015). "Laura Jane Grace on How to Be a Parent When You're Transitioning Genders". Noisey. Vice Media. Grace, Laura Jane (6 March 2015). "Tattooing Away the Pain by Laura Jane Grace". Noisey. Vice Media. Grace, Laura Jane (30 March 2015). "Laura Jane Grace on the Problem with Pronouns". Noisey. Vice Media. Grace, Laura Jane (12 June 2015). "Laura Jane Grace Talks with Fan About Transphobic Assault in the Punk Community". Noisey. Vice Media. Grace, Laura Jane (28 March 2016). "About That Title: Against Me!'s Laura Jane Grace explains why she decided to title her memoir 'TRANNY.'". Noisey. Vice Media. Book Grace, Laura Jane; Ozzi, Dan (2016). Tranny: Confessions of Punk Rock's Most Infamous Anarchist Sellout. New York: Hachette Books. ISBN 978-0-316-26438-9. OCLC 962854902. See also Against Me! Tranny References Further reading Maron, Marc; Grace, Laura Jane (6 July 2015). "Episode 617: Laura Jane Grace" (Audio interview). WTF with Marc Maron. Noah, Trevor; Grace, Laura Jane (2 February 2017). "Laura Jane Grace - Discovering Gender Identity in "Tranny" (Video Clip)" (Video interview). The Daily Show with Trevor Noah. Comedy Central. Power, Tom; Grace, Laura Jane (4 April 2017). "Laura Jane Grace saw herself in Madonna" (Video interview). Q. Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. External links Against Me!'s site Laura Jane Grace & the Devouring Mothers at Bloodshot Records Laura Jane Grace at IMDb

QuesoPunk (talk) 19:26, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: providing a copy of the article's wikitext (which I collapsed for readability purposes) doesn't really help us in identifying the change you want made. Please mention the specific change(s) you would like in a "change X to Y" format so we can clearly identified what needs to be edited. If necessary, please also provide reliable source(s). PlanetJuice ^{(talk • contribs)} 02:29, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Please remove deadname (birth name)

Please remove Laura Jane Grace’s deadname (birth name) from this article. Deadnaming a trans person is universally considered extremely disrespectful. It serves no necessary or particularly useful purpose in a Wikipedia article. It is common practice for Wikipedia articles on trans people to not include deadnames.

I cannot make this change since the article is semi-protected and I don’t have a sufficient level of clearance.

YarrowFlower (talk) 14:10, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

• Not done. According to MOS:DEADNAME, in cases of people who become Notable prior to coming out as Trans and asserting their chosen name, the deadname may be mentioned, although the degree of prominence it is given depends on the context. For example, where the person was Notable under their stage name, rather than their birth name, the birth name should not be included but the stage name should be.
• In the current instance, I see what looks like a clear Notability pass pre-2012 based on the former name, and no real difference between birth name and We are name, so the deadname should not be removed. Also, please look at some of the recent discussions on WT:MOSBIO, where deadname issues are generally discussed, before proposing drastic changes to how WP treats routine cases concerning former names. Newimpartial (talk) 17:39, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

  Indeed, MOS:DEADNAME is the rule we have for whether to deadname a trans person or not (based on a long series of discussions by many people in the community)—you don't have to agree with the rule but it's there in good faith as people might reasonably be confused if person X is who they're looking for when they only know them by name Y (and someone being notable pre-transition is a good indication that many people could know them just by name Y). We have discussions from time to time about whether/how to change such guidelines but for now the page is consistent with what the community has agreed upon. — Bilorv (talk) 19:56, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Spelling error

Some editor wrote facial feminisation surgery where this is an article that has been, and is more appropriately, written in American English. The spelling of the reference to the page should be facial feminization surgery regardless of what the destination article is called (I haven't checked.).2601:182:4381:E60:A826:7026:8F1F:45B5 (talk) 20:38, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Resolved Gbear605 (talk) 22:41, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Grace’s birth name

Hi, I noticed some undid my change of removing Laura Jane Graces birth name (known as a deadname) in trans spaces). I wanted to start a discussion about weather or not the name should be kept on the page. Personally, I think it would be best to keep her name on the table in the article, but remove it from the (born,) phrase. My reasoning behind this is because sharing a trans person’s deadname is generally frowned upon, and I think displaying it so prominently contributes to the misunderstandings some cisgender people have when it comes to asking about and using deadnames. I also doubt it will cause any confusion, as I don’t think any one who hasn’t checked the page since she came out (almost 10 years ago) would be interested in checking the page now. If anyone disagrees, feel free to let me know, just wanted to explain my perspective and start a discussion Wren Armstrong (talk) 15:06, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Please read MOS:DEADNAME. This BLP subject was unquestionably notable during the period she used her deadname by choice, and so we have a policy on WP to include such notable deadnames prominently in the article lede, though typically not anywhere else in the article. I would be happy to see it removed from the infobox, for example, if you would like to do that, but inclusion in the infobox without mention in the article is actually against policy.

Also, ten years is not a long time in the context of an encyclopaedia; please take a look at Talk:Wendy Carlos if you'd like to see how the WP community feels about even much older deadnames. Newimpartial (talk) 22:43, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Ok, that’s understandable, thanks for the links Wren Armstrong (talk) 02:35, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 August 2021

Stop publishing the dead name of trans people!! Just remove the dead name! There's no reason to publish it other than being a total asshat! 68.62.182.0 (talk) 17:15, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: We include their dead name of they were notable before transition. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:46, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia includes her deadname since she was notable before she transitioned. If someone only knew about her from then (or, say, picked up an old CD at a record store) then we still want them to be able to find her page. I don't like it, but it's the best solution we have. Gbear605 (talk) 18:27, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 October 2021

REMOVE HER DEADNAME. WHY IS HER DEADNAME ON HERE? 2600:387:0:80D:0:0:0:6A (talk) 13:21, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. We generally include the name if someone was notable before their transition. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:29, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia includes her deadname since she was notable before she transitioned. If someone only knew about her from then (or, say, picked up an old CD at a record store) then we still want them to be able to find her page. I don't like it, but it's the best solution we have. Gbear605 (talk) 16:05, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Deadname

REMOVE HER FUCKING DEADNAME THAT'S FUCKED UP THAT IT'S STILL THERE

HER DEADNAME IS ON HERE MULTIPLE TIMES THIS IS NOT OK

REMOVE THE DEADNAME — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.59.20.222 (talk) 03:21, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 April 2022

remove Laura's deadname from the page. its not nessecary. 2600:1000:A101:BF3E:74A8:2C8:24E2:3549 (talk) 00:35, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Hi! Unfortunately, for trans people who came out after becoming notable, Wikipedia policy is to keep their deadnames on their page. If someone isn’t up to date about Grace (perhaps they’re looking up Grace from an old CD using her deadname), they’ll be confused if they can’t find her or if they find a person with a different name with no connection to the name they looked up. Wikipedia tries to be kind to the people we talk about, but we also have to balance being helpful for the people who are using Wikipedia, and this is the compromise. Trust me, I fully appreciate the importance of not referencing to a person by their deadname, but sometimes we need to do it.

If you want to know more, WP:DEADNAME explains the full policy. Gbear605 (talk) 00:46, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Laura's birth name

Hello all, I'm new here! Recently I decided to make an account to voice my issue with having Laura's birth name listed here. Her name has always been Laura. If you've listened to her songs, heard her stories and watched her grow, you'll know that deadname wasn't hers. I'm a trans person myself and if I was famous with a wiki article, I'd would never want "formerly known as". Obviously getting Laura's opinion isn't easy and I don't speak for her or all trans people, but it makes me uncomfortable and I don't enjoy seeing it. It feels disrespectful. Twinktimelord (talk) 18:14, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Grace’s birth name

Hi, I noticed some undid my change of removing Laura Jane Graces birth name (known as a deadname) in trans spaces). I wanted to start a discussion about weather or not the name should be kept on the page. Personally, I think it would be best to keep her name on the table in the article, but remove it from the (born,) phrase. My reasoning behind this is because sharing a trans person’s deadname is generally frowned upon, and I think displaying it so prominently contributes to the misunderstandings some cisgender people have when it comes to asking about and using deadnames. I also doubt it will cause any confusion, as I don’t think any one who hasn’t checked the page since she came out (almost 10 years ago) would be interested in checking the page now. If anyone disagrees, feel free to let me know, just wanted to explain my perspective and start a discussion Wren Armstrong (talk) 15:06, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Please read MOS:DEADNAME. This BLP subject was unquestionably notable during the period she used her deadname by choice, and so we have a policy on WP to include such notable deadnames prominently in the article lede, though typically not anywhere else in the article. I would be happy to see it removed from the infobox, for example, if you would like to do that, but inclusion in the infobox without mention in the article is actually against policy.

Also, ten years is not a long time in the context of an encyclopaedia; please take a look at Talk:Wendy Carlos if you'd like to see how the WP community feels about even much older deadnames. Newimpartial (talk) 22:43, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Ok, that’s understandable, thanks for the links Wren Armstrong (talk) 02:35, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

I restored this section from the archives and marked it to not archive, since it's clearly still relevant and probably always will be. Gbear605 (talk) 16:12, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 December 2022

It is against best journalism practices to list the birth names, or “dead names” of transgender people. I also believe it is against Wikipedias terms of service. Therefore, under the “born” section which lists this individuals birth date, the name listed should be removed promptly. 2601:186:827F:FA50:B027:1440:E86F:28E0 (talk) 01:55, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: see the Grace's birth name section on this talk page or MOS:DEADNAME Cannolis (talk) 04:33, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Why include birth name directly next to introduction?

I don't feel it is sufficiently relevant to put right next to her name on first paragraph. Leave it displayed on the side but IMO it should be deleted from the introductory section. Logk8 (talk) 06:26, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. I personally believe a birth name isn't relevant at all and is just insulting to Grace. SentientSauceCan (talk) 07:07, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Yeah that should be removed. 24.113.166.242 (talk) 21:53, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

The relevant guideline is MOS:DEADNAME:

In the case of a living transgender or non-binary person, their birth name or former name (professional name, stage name, or pseudonym) should be included in the lead sentence of their main biographical article only if they were notable under that name. Introduce the prior name with either "born" or "formerly".

There have been some vague rumblings about only including it in the body rather than first sentence and infobox, but this is the community's current practice for trans subjects who were notable in the public eye prior to transitioning. Proponents of the practice deem it necessary in case some hypothetical reader only familiar with Grace's pre-2012 work searched her deadname and was baffled to arrive at the article of someone with a completely different name and gender. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 02:46, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

I won’t argue with the policy, but I would point out that omitting birth name could be misleading for some readers by contributing to an inaccurate understanding of the subject. Rubyike (talk) 17:41, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

"Heather Hannoura" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Heather Hannoura has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 November 25 § Heather Hannoura until a consensus is reached. — CrafterNova ^{[ TALK ] [ CONT ]} 19:22, 25 November 2023 (UTC)