Talk:Lambda Chi Alpha/Archive 1

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Box

I'm thinking of changing the box to this:

  • Who are you? When would you change it? Why? Do you have a crucicrecent image? Vijay 23:09, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Lambda Chi Alpha Fraternity
Nicknames: Lambda Chis, Lamb Chops, Choppers
Founded November 2, 1909
Founder Warren A. Cole
Greek Letters ΛΧΑ
Headquarters Indianapolis, IN
Official Colors Purple, Green, and Gold
Official Flower White Rose
Symbol: Cross and Crescent
The Cross and Crescent of Lambda Chi Alpha
The Cross and Crescent of Lambda Chi Alpha
Philanthropy North American Food Drive
The Coat of Arms of Lambda Chi Alpha
The Coat of Arms of Lambda Chi Alpha
The Coat of Arms of Lambda Chi Alpha
Motto: Vir Quisque Vir (Latin) Every Man a Man
Lambda Chi Alpha Website

Notable Members

Alumni

  • Just how many "world-renowned"s are we gonna put in the alumni list? Xyzzyva 00:28, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
  • I think we should put as many as possible that are well known or have done something important. Once there get to be too many, then we can discuss thining the list out. Also, is John Gallagher an alumnus? I didn't find any information about him other than being a professor somewhere. I'll remove him for now, until we get some more info on him. --BeastRHIT
  • I created some groupings for our VIP alumni (by profession and award) and posted the research I've done for headquarters. I moved the original list to the bottom of the Notable members section and labeled it Random List. I also removed the names that appeared in the groupings I added to avoid repeats. --Jasonpearce 21:53, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Regarding baseball Hall of Famer Mickey Cochrane, what evidence is there that he was a Lambda Chi? I emailed the Alpha chapter at Boston University but have received no answer thus far.
  • I would say that the entire collection of wikipedia articles on collegiate fraternities is full of unverifiable facts. I don't want to start chiping away at everything we've put together here on the LCA page, but I do think its about time we start citing our sources. The realm of "notable members" is one huge realm where I don't know of a page that cites reliable sources for its information. To be clear, I don't think much on these pages not true, but I do think it's not verifiable. Therefore, a lot of this info doesn't belong. It would be a waste to just delete it all, though. Let's start finding sources. Does anyone know if LCA has published a list of notable members? How about a list of all members? Any other ideas? --Vijay 23:57, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
I added one good credible external link for prominent Lambda Chis, from the Notable Names Database, and I'm sure there are others. I also think it's beneficial to have them on the main page, unless it becomes way too massive, since the affiliations with the fraternity are in some ways as important as the fraternity history, etc., itself. In fact, one might say that the fraternity alumni is the single most important part of this article since all of these organizations serve pretty much the same purpose and are pretty identical in other ways. The people affiliated with them is what sets each fraterity a part, in many ways. LambdaChi 13:19, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Adding the Notable Names Database is good. I was thinking more along the lines of an in text footnote, but the only text to note on, right now, is the heading, and I didn't like putting the refrence up there. Jasonpearce said that the member database will be on lambdachi.org this year, so I figure whenever that's available, it'll be the most authoritative reference we can use. — Vijay 04:05, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Steppenwolf

  • Has anyone heard the story about Steppenwolf being former brothers, and if so, is there any validity as to why they are no longer brothers? Beau 16:57, 30 December 2005 (UTC)BeauBlumberg
  • Regarding Steppenwolf, none of the members of the band nor the men who wrote the lyrics are members of Lambda Chi Alpha. On that note, neither are the guys who invented bowling or Spider-Man. --Jasonpearce 21:53, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
  • OK, one thing needs to be cleared up. The lead singer for Steppenwolf, John Kay, is a Lambda Chi. Steppenwolf sings "Magic Carpet Ride." I am a Brother of Lambda Chi Alpha, and only a Brother could possibly know and understand the true meaning behind this song (and no, it is not about drugs). --Asulca593 18:08, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Where was John Kay a initiated into Lambda Chi? Just because you, or others, think there's "hidden meaning" in a song doesn't mean that it's true. Conversely, much art is meaningful to people in ways the creator was not intending. Jason Pearce is a brother of LCA, and works for the IHQ. If anyone would look into the truth before posting, he would. The comments about bowling and Spider-Man presumably emphasise the lack of connection between Steppenwolf and Lambda Chi. If you have verifiable evidence to the contrary, please add it to the article!
  • On the other hand, all the other NIC fraternities have copies of their ritual available to read in the Library of Congress. Harry Truman kept Lambda Chi's from being included in the collection! --Vijay 19:18, 5 April 2006 (UTC) (kidding about the Library of Congress thing, of course)
  • Maybe I spoke (or typed) too soon without thinking, for which I apologize. I did not mean to discredit anyone. I have no solid evidence to support that he is (or is not) a Lambda Chi. So I definetly faulted in my previous statement.
  • An explanation for making that statement is this: Obviously, I cannot go too deep into details in such a public forum. Personally, it is harder for me to believe that Kay was not a Lambda Chi, so I just assumed the opposite. As a Lambda Chi, Magic Carpet Ride does have meaning to me. I haven't met many other Lambda Chis from other chapters, so I can't say I know what other brothers think. Therefore, I assumed it was common knowledge and didn't really think to do any research. Live and learn, I guess... --Asulca593 04:33, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
  • I also have no evidence one way or the other. It's something I've heard a lot, and I think most Lambda Chi's believe it's true. I believed there was a connection, too, until I heard otherwise. I spoke harshly and as if I hadn't made the same mistake myself. Sorry! I guess the next step is to try and tell others. —Vijay 18:04, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Those in my chapter were well aware of the, ahem, Magic Carpet Ride thing. But most of us thought it was just a cool, er, coincidence. Baccyak4H 02:28, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Brother Asulca593, the John Kay from Stepenwolf you are referring to was born Joachim Fritz Krauledat in 1944 in the section of Germany then known as East Prussia. In our database of 250,000 members, we have no one whose last name is "Krauledat." We do have four guys whose first name is "Joachim":
  • RIESTHUIS, JOACHIM Nebraska - Kearney 1995 5/22/1971 (not born in 1944)
  • CZERWONKY, JOACHIM Northwestern 1935 12/31/1910 (not born in 1944)
  • KRISTOF, JOACHIM Cincinnati 1/1/1900 (not born in 1944)
  • KASSIL, JOACHIM Miami (OH) 1975 12/31/1952 (not born in 1944)
  • And in our database of 250,000 members, we do have only two men named "John Kay":
  • KAY, JOHN Elliot Union 2007 3/28/1985 (not born in 1944)
  • KAY, JOHN Pete Memphis 12/31/1950 (not born in 1944)
  • As for the other members of the band, here are our closest matches (e.g. I can't find a match):
  • ADAMS, DOUGLAS William Jewell 1952 age 76
  • ADAMS, DOUGLAS Neil Texas State - San Marcos 1986 age 42
  • ADAMS, DOUGLAS Richard Baldwin-Wallace 1998 age 29
  • HURST, RAYMOND Hal Nevada - Reno age 39
  • HURST, ROBERT New Hampshire age 69
  • JOHNSON, DAN Eugene Montana State - Bozeman 2009
  • JOHNSON, DANIEL Simpson 1982 age 46
  • JOHNSON, DANIEL Biff Oklahoma age 65
  • JOHNSON, DANIEL Burke California State - Sacramento 1988 age 39
  • JOHNSON, DANIEL Cole Marshall 2005 age 23
  • JOHNSON, DANIEL E. California State - Northridge 2009
  • JOHNSON, DANIEL Glenn North Texas 2004 age 24
  • JOHNSON, DANIEL Gregory Michigan age 32
  • JOHNSON, DANIEL Hiram Maryland - College Park age 66
  • JOHNSON, DANIEL John Virginia Tech 1985 age 41
  • JOHNSON, DANIEL Lee Cincinnati age 106
  • JOHNSON, DANIEL Lee San Diego State 1970 age 57
  • JOHNSON, DANIEL Lewis Marshall 1987 age 41
  • JOHNSON, DANIEL Lewis Simpson 1983 age 45
  • JOHNSON, DANIEL P. Depauw 1977 age 51
  • JOHNSON, DANIEL Patrick North Florida 1993 age 36
  • SUMNER, JEFFERY Earl Akron age 37
  • SUMNER, JEFFREY Depauw age 50
  • SUMNER, JERRY Lynn Ferris State 1991 age 37
  • WILK, MICHAEL Brian Kutztown 2001 age 28
  • WOLF, CHARLES Culver-Stockton 1956 age 76
  • WOLF, CHARLES Penn State age 72
  • WOLF, CHARLES Valparaiso 1971 age 58
  • WOLF, CHARLES Coulson Maryland - College Park age 87
  • Thus, I conclude that John Kay from Stepenwolf is not an initiated member of Lambda Chi Alpha nor is any other member of the Steppenwolf band. If your research proves otherwise, I'm more than happy to review your findings. --Jasonpearce 14:32, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Hi folks. New poster here, so I hope this is the correct place to put this. A man named Rushton Moreve is also credited for writing the song. Can you do some research on him in the database? --Jhjackson 13:01, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Dear Jhjackson, Rushton Moreve wrote the bass line and the original lyrics. But the original lyrics aren't used in the song, for John Kay rewrote them from scratch. The original lyrics were "I like my job, I like by baby." That was it. According to John Kay's autobiography, he says "I took the tape home and put it on my new sound system. One of the first things I had done with some of my royalties was to go down to The Sound Center and purchase my first real hi-fi system, brand new. 'I like to dream right between my sound machine' -- the sound machine being the hi-fi system. Twenty minuted later the whole thing was finished." But to answer your question, we have no one with the last name "Moreve" in our database. --jasonpearce 18:12, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
  • I wrote an article in the July 2006 Cross & Crescent magazine called "Carpet Ride Unraveled." This article will hopefully put this rumor to bed. In ZAX, --jasonpearce 18:18, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Chapter list links

  • The list of all chapters is really long. Perhaps it could be linked to at some external location? I didn't find any comprehensive list at IHQ's site, but maybe I'm missing something. The fewer lists of "all chapters" exist online, the easier it will be to keep them maintained correctly--it really ought to be done on the official LCA site. On the other hand, I think it would be good to post the unique way in which LCA Zetas are named. I could get it out of Ritual: What and why. (just 2c) -Vijay 06:31, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
    • I added a section on the naming of chapters. Vijay 22:52, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
      • Also, I cited Ritual: What and Why, but I'm not sure how best to do so. Is there a better way to do this? Vijay 23:32, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Furthermore, if the entire chapter list is to remain in the article, where should the links point? It seems to me that the school's name should link to the school, while the chapter (the zeta designation) should point to the chapter's site. Is pointing to the school's website even relevent for an article about Lambda Chi. Any thoughts? Vijay 20:40, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
    • What about having schools point to their wiki page, if it exists? Vijay 22:52, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

First Paragraph

I removed the quotes around “founded.” Quoting a verb in the lead paragraph of an encyclopedic article has to be bad form. I don't think there are any sources that would dispute that Cole founded LCA. Granted, a lot of work was done by others, including Mason, of course; however, they should be given their own sections, and Cole's contribution should not be limited. Is there any reason I don't understand about why Cole "founded" LCA? Vijay 23:14, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Warren Cole

From the Γ–Τ Zeta at Ohio State U.'s website, Cole resigned after allegations of "accusations of financial irregularities and alteration of official documents from some members of the Grand High Zeta." I assume this info is in the Paedegogus (but I don't have one with me). He was reinstated in '57 as a member in good standing. (No reason why is given.)

Oh, actually, their info came from Elmhurst College's website. The material is the same.

Anyway, if someone has some more light to shed on the issue, I hope they'll add to the article. Vijay 03:28, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Notable alumni

I have put the notable alumni in more manageable categories. Some had previously been listed in multiple categories. Also, if there is no article on them, I would not recommend listing them. I think the list is now in very good condition. LambdaChi 17:21, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I disagree that each and every notable member needs to be posted here in this article. I think that a couple of highlights are sufficient, and that the list can be moved to another page. I should've posted here, first, before I made the change--I was planning on posting about the changes I made as soon as I was done. I would also like to move the list of chapters to a seperate article. It is disturbingly long, and the article suffers for it. As to the point that "every other fraternity" lists their notable memebers, I would point out that most fraternity articles are not well written. Notable members are really a very small part of what any fraternity is about, although they make good "bragging rights." The article needs a "History" section and a "North American Food Drive" badly. Right now the article is a couple of paragraphs separated by two long lists. I think that needs to be changed. Further, separating the articles will allow for a better managment of content, as the lists are the part that are most frequently updated. —Vijay 23:46, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Moving the lists out of the article

Right now I'm working on List of notable members of Lambda Chi Alpha and List of chapters of Lambda Chi Alpha. I think that separating this content from the main article would vastly improve the quality of the article. Removing these long lists will immediately improve the flow of the content of the page. Remember, this should read like an encyclopedia--we should have mainly paragraphs of text, not simply headings, subheadings, and lists. Also, since the chapter list is updated whenever a colony is chartered or a chapter deactivates, or when someone adds a new link to a chapter website, and the notable members list gets a large amount of interest, it will aid in managing the article to have these lists separated as their own articles. Most importantly, removing the lists from the sections, and using the {{main|article name}} template will encourage editors to contribute new information about Lambda Chi, itself, rather than focusing on individual members and chapters.

Thoughts? —Vijay 23:51, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

To further support my point, I'll quote from Wikipedia:Lists_(embedded_lists)#Lists_within_articles:

“As a basic principle, you should avoid list-making in entries. Wikipedia is not a list repository. Lists of links, if warranted, should have their own entry: see Wikipedia:Lists (stand-alone lists) for detail. Instead of giving a list of items, the significant items should be mentioned naturally within the text.” [emphasis mine]

If there's a truly good reason to leave the 2.5 page long ~90 item notable members list or the 6 page long list of our ~300 chapters in the 3 pages of actual article that we have (including notes and references), especially when we can include a useful summary of the information and leave the full list one click away, I can't figure it out. — Vijay 04:38, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Copied from "Alumni": I added one good credible external link for prominent Lambda Chis, from the Notable Names Database, and I'm sure there are others. I also think it's beneficial to have them on the main page, unless it becomes way too massive, since the affiliations with the fraternity are in some ways as important as the fraternity history, etc., itself. In fact, one might say that the fraternity alumni is the single most important part of this article since all of these organizations serve pretty much the same purpose and are pretty identical in other ways. The people affiliated with them is what sets each fraterity a part, in many ways. LambdaChi 13:19, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure how well our alumni really do set us apart. Every college Fraternity has its share of Congress people and CEOs. Most of the "notable alumni" that are recognizable to the average person are in the Arts and Entertainment or Athletes sections, due to pop culture visibility. With all respect to Matt Rose, I doubt many people have heard of Burlington Northern Santa Fe Corporation, or him (unless you're into railroads). The article on Lambda Chi should list the alumni, in paragraph form, that, as you say, set it apart. I would mention Harry Truman and BF Skinner, both big names. I would suggest Blackmun as the Supreme Court is a big big deal. Maybe Ackerman, Owens, and Reed, as Bell South, Caterpillar, and CitiGroup are huge corps. And a couple more would do it, perhaps some of the athletes who're currently in national sports leagues. That Lincoln Almond was Governor of Rhode Island and a Lambda Chi doesn't need to be on the main page. Perhaps that six state governors have been Lambda Chis could be said, but even thats pushing the boundaries of what I think needs to be included in an article about Lambda Chi. Especially when the article would link to the complete list! I'm not suggesting that we delete the information, just prevent it from disrupting the flow of the article.

Further, you say, "unless it becomes too massive." It's already about as long as the entire rest of the text of the article, excluding the list of chapters. How massive is too massive? — Vijay 02:30, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

My view on this is not too strongly held. But if you look at the other fraternity pages (and I skimmed through half a dozen or so), you'd find they all list prominent alumni on the main page. This section of the page, to my mind, is probably the most interesting and arguably the most important on the main page. I couldn't find any other fraternity page that didn't list prominent alumni the same way (on the main page), so I think it's ok for now. How big is too big? I think it's pushing the limit, and, if it grew much larger, I'd leave the current list and move those of less notoriety to the notable alumni page (and I'll add a link to the page you created where further alumni of marginal notability can be added). Hope this sounds reasonable. LambdaChi 07:44, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Poking around the other fraternity pages, most do have alumni lists (although not all have them in "list" format). However, most (all?) are shorter than ours. Many are significantly shorter. Also, poking around the Talk pages, it seems many folks have had similar discussions about lists and links: Talk:Theta Chi, Talk:Sigma Pi, etc. I'd still like to pare it down a bit. It would be awesome if the whole article read like one. Now that we're linking to the complete list, would you mind if I took out some of the less recognizable alumni? Also, how would you feel about getting the chapter list off of the main page? There would still be the section (currently 7.2) "Chapter Locations," which would contain a link to the full list. — vijay 10:17, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable. Maybe that NNDB list can serve as something of a threshold for inclusion on the main page. The list of chapter locations looks longer (and more tedious) than the alumni list, in my view. Anyway, look forward to seeing what you might do with it. Thx. LambdaChi 18:13, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

The Notable Names Database (NNDB) is not a credible source. On three occasions, they have listed one or more men who are not members of Lambda Chi Alpha and they take months to make corrections. --jasonpearce 21:01, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, perhaps someone could call the national headquarters and verify the list with them? It looks accurate to me, though, based on stuff I've seen from them through the years. LambdaChi 21:36, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Jason works at IHQ, and did a lot of work cleaning up the alumni list a few weeks ago. So it should be good, I think. — vijay 13:02, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Since Wikipedia may not be the best place for a long list of names, I moved Headquarters' development of the list to FraternityManuals.com, I site I built and maintain. In ZAX, --jasonpearce 18:15, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Distinguishing Characteristics

So, what are the characteristics that distinguish Lambda Chi from the other 63 NIC members? In no particular order:

  • North American Food Drive
  • Open rituals
  • Young for its size
  • Associate Member Program
  • Chapter Naming scheme (for better or worse! ;-) )
  • Size, overall, both in terms of chapters and initiates
  • Hazing policy

these are just a few, if others would like to contribute to this list, that would be good. I'm gonna try to make sure there's a section in the article for all of these things. — Vijay 04:41, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Chapter web sites

I think just about every Lambda Chi Alpha chapter has its own web site, or most do. Would be a good idea to add those that can be found (I see some are already listed, which is good). Would be good to get the rest up, in the existing chapter section format. LambdaChi 07:58, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Don't see why not! It would also be good to periodically make sure all the listed ones are still up and in the same place. I wonder if there's a way to automate that?  — gogobera (talk) 21:47, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Suspensions

Should suspended chapters be listed? and the dates of suspension?

For example, the Rutgers chapter (Phi Chapter) was suspended for a certain number of years due to the alcohol poisoning death of a pledge in 1988.

72.82.192.157 19:51, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I think suspended/closed chapters should be listed. They are part of our history and in some cases could return. Jrssr5 19:56, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I second that, and think that the reason for suspension should also be listed, if it can be cited.  — gogobera (talk) 21:46, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Notable Facts

  • Lambda Chi Alpha's Official Magazine, The Cross & Crescent, was the first Fraternal publication to go completely digital.
  • Lambda Chi Alpha was the first Fraternity to have a Podcast, which is supplimental to it's Magazine, The Cross & Crescent

Notable member research

Lambda Chi Alpha has 250,000 members; naturally, many of them are notable. We have created subcategories to include all men who have either received a notable award or reached a professional accomplishment.

Examples

  • CEOs of Fortune 500 or S&P 500 companies are notable
  • Politicians were become Governor, Congressman, Senator are notable
  • Actors who won or were nominated for an Emmy, Grammy, Oscar are notable
  • Athletes in a Hall of Fame, won a tournament (e.g. superbowl), or played for an All-Star team are notable

The challenge is not all recognizable members win notable awards and are thus difficult to classify. I propose we put these guys in a Miscellaneous subcategory. --Jasonpearce 19:35, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Style

Some consistancy should be made on how notable members are listed. Here are our proposed guidelines.

Member Names

Example: Robert Thomas Smith II (Butler 1941)

  • Please use the full first, middle, last, and suffix
  • If the full name doesn't properly link to a member's more common-name entry in Wikipedia, create a redirect (#R)
  • I'd add that the link you make should also point directly to the common-name page: [[John Doe|John Quincy Doe]]. But, please do add the redirect. — gogobera (talk) 00:47, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

School Names

Example: (Butler 1941)

  • Try to get the name as short as possible without abbreviation.
  • Typically, remove "University of," "College of," "Institute of."
  • But don't shorten to an acronym. e.g. NCSU should be written as (North Carolina State 1974)
  • The year represents the member's year of graduation, or his expected year of graduation if they didn't graduate. To calculate a class year, add 21 to the person's year of birth.
  • If the member was an honorary member, use HON instead of a year. e.g. Harry S. Truman (Missouri-Columbia HON)

Categories

A list of categories that should be researched to see if they contain any members of Lambda Chi Alpha.

Cruscicresent v Cross and Crescent

Is there any official guideline on this usage? It was recently "Crucicrescent" in the infobox, but was edited to the more "user friendly" version by an anon editor. I see two sides to the issue: the current phrase is much more clear, in terms of being words everyone understands; the other (crucicrescent) is a more obscure word, but describes the simbol unambiguously.

Then again, is "Crucicrescent" a real word? ... hmmmm. It's used it Ritual: What and Why, but a google search only returns LCA related hits, and the OED (my Mac OS dictionary) doesn't have it. Neither does <http://www.m-w.com>. I guess if it's not in the OED or Merriam Webster, that's reason enough for it not to be in the infobox. I think it could still be used in the article if provided with some explanation.  — gogobera (talk) 03:15, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism

I noticed a huge increase lately in vandalism taking place in this article. It's coming from multiple users and often sexual in nature. You can easily tell that vandalism in this article has reached a new level, when vandals revert each others edtis. I officially applied for page protection...I hope it solves our long-term issue. Wrightchr 23:49, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Baird's vs Paedagogus

I just got ahold of a copy of Baird's Manual of American College Fraternities, I found that its information disagrees with mine slightly regarding figures figuring into the TKN merger. From Baird's: LCA had 78 active chapters, TKN had 37 before the merger. After the merger, the united LCA had 106 chapters. (Note, that the online source at lambdachi.org repeates my 105 chapter number. So... now what? Does someone have to count? : / )

Answer: There were campuses that had both Lambda Chi Alpha and Theta Kappa Nu chapters (though some were closed at the time of the merger). On those campuses, the chapters had to merge into one chapter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.209.140.20 (talk • contribs)
Yes, my rather unclear question is about the 106 number from Baird's and the 105 number I had and that was repeated by IHQ.  — gogobera (talk) 05:15, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Also of note, Baird's says, "Lambda Chi Alpha, a fraternity based on democratic and progressive principles, was founded at Boston University November 2, 1909, by three students who had been affiliated with the local Cosmopolitan Law Club, established 1905." It then goes on to talk about the early chapters and early history. It then mentions specifically, "...Dr. John E. Mason, who almost single-handed rewrote the ritual and redesigned the coat of arms, badge and other emblems. Samuel Dyer of Maine, Louis F. Robins of Brown and Albert Cross of Pennsylvania are also honored as early workers whose contributions were especially distinguished. It is in recognition of the services of these men that the fraternity celebrates as Founders' Day march 22 of each year, the day in 1913 when the revised ritual and emblems were officially adopted."

Note that it doesn't mention Warren Cole, whatsoever. I would imagine that is an artifact of it being the 1949 edition of Baird's. I seem to remember Cole got kicked out for a while and that he was reinstated later (posthumasely?). That info should probably be in the LCA article. Does anyone know the full story? Have sources?

Lastly, Baird's mentions a few more good dates, but no information that isn't available elsewhere. It makes me wonder if all the NIC fraternities (is there a greek leter society Wikiproject for this sort've thing?) should have two pages such as: Name_of_Org. and History_of_Name_of_Org.. Vijay 03:01, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Now that I'm rereading this I'm reminded of my curiousity. What was the deal with Cole and his getting kicked out? Am I halucinating this stuff?  — gogobera (talk) 05:15, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Chapter List

I took the chapter list off of the page because the chapter listing has it's own page. It is pointless to have the chapters lsited on this page while there is also a page for the chapters alone. Acidskater 10:38, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Lambda Chi Alpha isn't the youngest of the 20 largest social fraternities. I don't know for sure who is, but AEPi for instance is 11th largest and was founded in 1913

Third most men ever

Taking a peak over at the NIC page, it seems that even 250K would put LCA in at #4 these days, behind SAE, Sig Chi, and Sig Phi Ep. Thoughts?  — gogobera (talk)

I agree, also KAPsi was founded in 1911 and with 105,000 members is at 17 on the list. I edited the page to reflect that we are the youngest of the 15 largest and currently at #4. That means we need to initate 12,000 guys this semester, so get out there and rush!Airpear 17:40, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Copyright

This is the discussion that has been going on in my chat page. I believe it is more relevant here.

A lot of your recent edits are good; however, a significant number have been lifted directly from the IHQ site. As far as I'm aware, IHQ has not released this text under any licence. As such, and until we can get confirmation otherwise, I'm going to revert the edits that I believe infringe on copyright. For more information, please see wikipedia's copyright page. Feel free to continue this discussion here, rather than breaking it over onto my talk page.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by gogobera (talk • contribs).

It would help if I knew who you were.Airpear 18:52, 14 August 2007 (UTC) I have seen your revert and undid it. A reversion is extreme. Edit the text that I have added. Anything from fraternitymanuals.com is under a creative commons license. As far as anything from lambdachi.org it may be licensed under creative commons, I am not sure. Either way a revert is extreme and undoes a signifcant ammount of editing and work unrelated to the offending sections.Airpear 19:00, 14 August 2007 (UTC) Sorry, I was in the process of writing out more of what I was thinking after I realized I hadn't signed my comment, but hadn't finished before you posted. (In the future, you can use the page history to determine who a comment has been left by, even when unsigned). I agree that a reversion is extreem; however, reusing copyrighted material is expressly not allowed on wikipedia, due to its illegality. I would have prefererd to retain all the other excellent work, but I was unaware of any way to do that without going through manually removing entire chunks of the page. I felt it would be easier to re-add the good edits, rather than risk leaving in copyrighted material.

On the other hand, I was unaware that the Paedagogus was on <FraternityManuals.com>. That site is run by Jason Pierce, a Lambda Chi working with IHQ. Anything on that site, then, I would presume has been officially released under the CC Wiki licence. Anything written on <lambdachi.org> is not, though. (Note the copyright 2001 notice on the bottom of all pages.)

Unfortunately, I believe that much of the history section of the Paedagogus is also posted on <lambdachi.org>, and not in a "way that makes clear" that it may be reused under any licence. This conflicts with the terms of the creative commons licence and puts the text in a questionable legal position. And, after checking it out, while there is a link to the 50th edition PDF, it doesn't seem to actually be available.

Seeing as you believe that a revert is "extreem," please remove the questionable text until it can be confirmed that it has been released under a license compatible with the GFDL. — gogobera (talk) 19:31, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

There's no 50th edition PDF, but there is a plain text version. I guess we can leave the text up there. The next step is to entirely change the tone from "informational brochure published by LCA" to "encyclopedia article written about LCA". — gogobera (talk) 23:04, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

The 50th ed of the paed is available as a .pdf and as a wiki. The link on fraternitymanuals is bad, but it is still published. As to the copyright on the website I believe it applies to the site not to the content but Jason would have to answer that for me. I believe that it has been released under Creative Commons.Airpear 01:27, 15 August 2007 (UTC) Here is the link to the 50th ed paed on fraternitymanuals.com: http://www.fraternitymanuals.com/images/3/31/Paedagogus50th.pdf.

I agree that all the history section needs to be rewritten, but truthfully I have looked at the page so much that I can't think of different wording at the moment. My paed and my history are all packed up for moving so I can't reread them and I don't have a copy of the Expositor to read. I would like for anyone so inclined to rewrite the sections, but try to add more detail than is currently there. Eventually I would like for us to be a featured article and that will require substantial work.Airpear 13:48, 15 August 2007 (UTC) For the time being I will finish up the list of chapters page.

Updated NEW Coat of Arms

Noticed that the coat of arms was recently deleted from Wikipedia, probably due to improper fair use abuse. I have uploaded a version I created some years ago for the Phi Tau undergrad chapter website I once maintained. Hope this helps. The page looked drepressing without it! Wrightchr (talk · contribs) 17:41, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

The Coat of Arms is currently be created and standardized in a vector format by the Lambda Chi Alpha Graphics Committee (made up of Alumni), helping Jason Pearce and Chris Barrick at LCA Int. HQ. I would imagine that a .SVG file will be available when it is complete. Jeff R. 13:41, 26 April, 2007

Hopefully, it will have a black lion rampant, as the coat of arms is blazoned… — gogobera (talk) 01:33, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

'True Brother' Initiative

I don't have a lot of information on this summer initiative, so what I add would not amount to much. Does anyone think we should create a new setion regarding "True Brother" Initiative (ie the fact Impact's no longer being certified, fraternity eductation now truely lasting past the AM period, new rituals, etc.) Albert109 17:59, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Someone added a bit on True Brother, and since I don't like to remove things others have added, I reorganized it and added a tag for additions. It would be great if anyone had some real details that they could add.Airpear 19:00, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

An anon added that True Brother is a "direct copy" of the Army's seven point value system. The odd spacing, anon IP, and single sentence contribution made me assume vandalism; however, it seems that it's just poorly integrated into the article. The army does in fact list seven values: loyalty, duty, respect, selfless service, honor, integrity, and personal courage.[1] So, unless the Army took it from us… (-:  — gogobera (talk) 19:02, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I integrated the comment.Airpear 13:26, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Lambda Chi or Lambda Chi Alpha

I think Lambda Chi Alpha is more appropriate than just Lambda Chi.Airpear 14:27, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Mottoes

Would we like to see our Greek phrases written in their original polytonic greek form? Most browsers display it correctly. I'm sure some older browsers won't, but I don't have any to test with. For reference: Λάμβδα Χῖ Ἄλφα, and Χαλεπà τà καλά. This is how Jack Mason and Warren Cole used them in our coat of arms and in letters to each other and with other brothers of the fraternity. The polytonic form of Greek was simplified to a monotonic form (fewer accents) in the ’80s, but is still used (in Greece) by some who consider the change a break with tradition. Of course, it also used by anyone studying the Ancient Greek literature our mottoes originate from.

Per Crucem Crescans and Vir Quisque Vir are Latin and, as far as I know, are correctly displayed. — gogobera (talk) 01:58, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Per Crucem Crescans and Vir Quisque Vir are correct. Origionally for TKN it was Vir Quisque Vir Est. but the est. was dropped, because it was unneeded. I don't think that it is necissary to add the polytonic form of the greek phrases, but I do understand your argument. I just think it is unnecissary.Airpear 13:21, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
My understanding of the TKN motto, was that it would be more correctly translated as "Every man is a man." Whether "est" was dropped because it was redundant or because it was a better translation of the desired English, I do not know. — gogobera (talk) 22:24, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Est is not required in Latin in some circumstances. I have forgotten the term for it, forgive me the last time I took Latin was 6 years ago.Airpear 14:37, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Cleaning up the talk page

If no one has a problem with it I would like to clean up the talk page by removing any discussion that is more than one year old. If something is still relevant we should keep it.

You may want to consider archiving the page instead of deleting. Subpages keep all the info available. There's a sort've unspoken (as far as I'm aware) idea that nothing in Wikipedia should be lost, so either subpages or permanent links are necessary when you archive old info.
But yes, the page is a bit cluttered. If it's bugging you, by all means, clean it up. — gogobera (talk) 15:41, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
I created an archive page and have added MiszaBot to auto-archive anything over 180days old. If it doesn't work correctly I will delete the bot. I am also going to add an archive box length. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Airpear (talk • contribs) 13:46, August 28, 2007 (UTC)

48th or 50th edition citations

Gogo, you took out the citations I had added to the 50th ed of the paed in stead of just changing the citation to the 50th ed. I'm going to undo and correct the changes.Airpear 14:38, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

You can't do that: They are not the same book. The 50th was a major revision. The page numbers are not even similar between editions, and neither book contains all of the information that the other does. I've corrected the problem. — gogobera (talk) 15:47, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
The places where I added information and cited to it is from the 50th ed of the paed online. I removed any edits I had made to the 48th edition citations.Airpear 13:06, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Of course, they are. Sorry. I've grabbed a PDF of the 50th, and I'll check to see what info can be cited from it. It would be best to cite info from a source that's easilly publically available, anyway. So, well, it's more work to update the citations, but I hope it's worth it. — gogobera (talk) 13:54, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Improving our ranking

I would really like to see us improve our ranking, but to do so we need to better format the page and include more information. Our history is almost non existant on the page and we have very little information of substance. I just looked at AKA's page which is up for review and they have a much fuller page. A lising of former Grand High Alphas would be a start. I would update the page, but I'm in the middle of moving and my history and paed are packed up. EM1843

Having spent more time reviewing other greek organization's pages we lack a clear organization to our page. We should begin with an introduction followed by a history page. We need a detailed narrative of our founding and growth. The TKN merger sercion should be incorportated in to this. I would suggest the following time periods: Founding, TKN Merger, Post War, Transition to Associate Membership. We also should high light the programs we have developed in the past such as LEAP, Leadership Seminar, and now the TBI. SigEp has a detailed description of their Balanced Man program and PIKE highlights PIKE U. EM1843

Brothers,

I changed up the organization of the page to flow more smoothly and added some additional information from lambdachi.org's history page. I hope that we can fill out the rest of the history section and then begin working on expanding the other sections. I hope you all like the changes that I made. EM1843 Airpear 17:38, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I have changed up the name of the rose and updated our colors to the 2007 standards announced by Lambda Chi at http://lambdachi.org/publications/graphics/2007colors/default.asp. I also tried to start rewriting the history sections that I pulled from HQs website. I can't seem to get a good image of the badge or AM pin but I think they should be added with a brief discription and images. If anyone can pull the ones from the logo sheets they look really great. [User:Airpear|Airpear]] 18:42, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

If no one has any objections I am going to increase our page rank to a B. I can't get any meaningful commentary from the project and I believe it warrants at least a B if not A status.Airpear 20:22, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Number of Chapters

The front page of the article insinuates that LCA has over 300 chapters (having chapters at over 300 schools). Because fraternities tend to be sensitive about where they rank in terms of size (number of chapters or initiates), I think it would be best to qualify this statement, so I have added text indicating this this number (300) includes inactive chapters. I hope everyone is okay with this. QuinnHK 21:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

The front page doesn't insinate anything. LCA does have over 300 chapters. Further in the article there is a link to a list of chapters that describe which chapters are currently active as well as a reference for why a chapter is closed if one is available. This list is more through than any other fraternities list. If anything the intro is not the place for a description. Either the number should be changed (which would be inappropriate, because they are still considered chapters) or there should be no explanation.Airpear 00:17, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
When the NIC or FLA talks about the size of fraternities, chapters generally refers only to active chapters. Saying that LCA has over 300 chapters is misleading. Even the LCA website (http://www.lambdachi.org/fraternity/) qualifies what they mean by 300 chapters: "...and has held subsidiaries (called chapters) at more than 300 universities." QuinnHK 19:30, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Sections to Update

Below is our list of current sections along with if I think they need editing or not. Feel free to comment and if you would like to work on a section put your user name next to it.

1 Creed (no work needed)
2 History (needs lots of work)
2.1 Founding
2.2 Expansion
2.3 Theta Kappa Nu
3 Associate Membership and Fraternity Education (needs lots of work)
3.1 Associate Membership
3.2 Fraternity Education
3.3 Hazing
4 True Brother Initiative (will need more work, but will have to wait until we have more information)
5 Symbols (needs more symbols added e.g. the seal)
5.1 Brotherhood Badge
5.2 Associate Member Pin
6 North American Food Drive (needs to be completely rewritten) Airpear 23:15, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
7 Notable members (no work needed)
8 Chapters (no work needed)
8.1 Chapter locations
8.2 Chapter naming
9 Headquarters Locations (I'm not a fan of the website used but I think this can wait)
10 Notes and references (no work needed)
11 External links (no work needed)

Airpear 21:00, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:LCA Crucicrescent.png

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BetacommandBot (talk) 14:38, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Membership Stats

According to the 2006 speech, LCA has initiated over 250,000 brothers overall, and LCA had exactly 9,982 undergraduate members.

According to Lambda Chi Alpha — General Fraternity, LCA has initiated 227,000 brothers overall, so that number is clearly outdated. It also claims 300+ chapters — a figure that certainly includes chapters that are currently inactive.

I'm not sure where to find a source that counts 190 active chapters. If that source is found, that info should be added. — gogobera (talk) 03:53, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

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It doesn't mean that

Per crucem crescens doesn't mean "Crescent in the Cross." It means "Growing through the cross," which could be taken as the Latin version of the Greek motto: growing through difficulties.

According to the 1966 edition of the Paedagogus (pledge manual of fraternal education) for Lambda Chi Alpha, page 53, it says: "... the Latin motto at the top "Crescent in the Cross" applies very definitively to the crest design." So at least at that time, Per Crucem Crescens was taken to mean "crescent in the cross." The same wording is used in the 1995 Paedagogus on page 66. Perhaps the General Fraternity has changed the translation since then. 68.9.129.203 (talk) 22:58, 11 January 2012 (UTC) 68.9.129.203 (talk) 22:57, 11 January 2012 (UTC) 

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.168.103.118 (talk) 02:31, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

68.9.129.203 (talk) 22:54, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

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