Talk:Lăutari

tired of reverting[edit]

Please add to this article, make it clearer, do some research and add references, this is obviously a suject that has different points of view and this arcticle should be worked on to become clearer ... Some people keep changing it back to an older version with only one point of view, no references, no list of groups and musicians playing musica lautareasca, ect. I dont believe anybody here is trying to say that lautar = roma and nothing else .... what is being said is that lautar is a romanian word for folk musician playing musica lautareasca(wich is romanian folk music and not gypsy music) so from this first definition a lautar can be any ethnicity,.. but the same word has become the term used by the anthropological community studing roma and by the roma themselves to designate the romanian roma clan of profesional musicans. it is this second definition that seems to really upset some people... I do not understand,... if scholars, books, anthropologist, courts of law, national geographic, the roma themselves use the word lautar to describe a roma clan that this upsets some. the term is obviously romanian, the music is romanian, they live in romania... that is all true. but it is also true that a clan of roma identify themselves as lautari... can they not? ... and can not others call them by the name they give themselves? if they would have called themselves "lawyers" then would people get upset that "lawyers" would be defined as people practicing law and a clan of romanian roma musicians... this sound ridiculous but if you get the idea... they identified themselves as lautari because thats what they were. just like most roma clans they took the name of their occupation,... for example the ursari their clan is called "bear trainer" because thats wath they are. it doesnt mean that every bear trainer is a roma ... and this doesnt mean that every lautar is a roma

Who keeps changing the article? The lauatari SING ROMANIAN MUSIC!!! If your stupid, go somewhere else! They could be gypsy, chinese or somalis, as long as they sing romanian music, for romanians, in romanian, how the hell can you not call it romanian music! Are you even romanian? Go and ask any peasant (not a snob city inhabitant), what does lautar mean! Read what it is sayd in the romanian DEX! Anyone who sings "popular music", how it`s called here, it`s a lautar. The gypsy slowly replaced the majority of romanian lautars when they were slaves around the boyars mansions, and after they were liberated from slavery in the 19th century. They didn`t invent this music or brought it to Romania. Gypsyes traditional music is different from the one sang by lautars.

You`re a pathetic victim of the commercial so called "musique de las tsiganes" branding!

For the last time: STOP EDITING THE ARTICLE!

The content of the links must be verified. The epithet "lautari" has been taken by many interprets, from Poland to Italy or even in Romania by the "manele" singers (please aslo see these sites: http://www.musicalstore.it/frames/nuove%20news/annalisa%20news2002/SPICCHI%20DI%20SICILIA.htm and http://www.lautari.art.pl/), the original meaning of the word must be kept: "lautar= a person who sings traditional romanian music"

The rest may are just inspired from them, they are not real lautari.

Also, I deleted the "romanian" from "music of Romanian Lautari" because only in Romania you would find lautari. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lupu (talk • contribs) 9 Nov 2005

First at all I would like to say that I see no reason for which you can't have an argument in a civil manner. While I am not an expert, I am a Romanian and I know a few things. Lautars were in great majority Gypies - I would say all because I don't know any Romanian lautars, but they could have been. I think that there is one misunderstanging regarding what the lautars were/are singing/playing - at Romanian weddings and parties of course that they played Romanian music, but that didn't mean by any way that they don't also play Gypsy music at Gypsy weddings/parties or anywhere else at request. While Gypsys are in general in poor regards in Romania, lautars and those who work with precious metals are one of the fews Gypsy groups that are better viewed by the Romanian majority.MihaiC 10:40, 7 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

uai MihaiC, vorbesti ca sa nu taci... genul de om care se baga in seama chiar daca n`are nimic de zis...

Reading this thread I see the tendency to completely disregard the romanian perspective of cultural preservation. Anyone can partake in cultural arts and contribute to its existence or notoriety, but you can't remove its origins strictly based on numbers, without engaging in misappropriation and ethnic erasure. By percentage there are more white Americans evolved in black culture, that still doesn't transfer its cultural origin or creators, which aren't white. It's still African American culture regardless of the global multicultural engagement. There were significant edits made to this article because it was disingenuous and presented the musical genre as a Rromani creation, which is not an uncommon occurrence in Balkan cultural representation discussions. If you have a problem with ethnic authenticity and cultural autonomy, maybe reassess your values, instead of manically editing an article. Ax022 (talk) 10:23, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Zamfir[edit]

Is Zamfir in any meaningful sense a lăutar? I realize that his vast repertoire includes some songs associated with lăutari, but it also includes about a dozen songs by Lennon and McCartney, but no one calls him a rock musician. Unless I'm mistaken, he's more or less classically trained. Is there any evidence that he ever worked as a lăutar? - Jmabel | Talk 19:46, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

zamphir "was" a lautar[edit]

of course that was when marcell cellier discovered him in the 60`s not when he was on selling those "as seen on TV" records —The preceding unsigned comment was added by JDRich (talk • contribs) 17 August 2006.

Again, is there any citation on this? He was classically trained (our article on him says he attended the Bucharest Academy of Music, where he was a pupil of Fanica Luca, and the Conservatory of Bucharest (1968)": not exactly a normal background for a lăutar. The article makes no mention of him ever being a lăutar. Are you saying that after (or perhaps before? But he would have been very young) the conservatory he was a lăutar? And do you have some citation on this? - Jmabel | Talk 18:20, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fanica luca also plays lautari music, not beatles songs.... on the liner notes of Marcel Cellier`s "les flutes roumaines" Cellier states for track 11 "Au plecat olten la coasa" played by Gheorghe Zamfir(this is my translation from french)

Oltenesc song that the Roumanian lautari introduced as one of their favorites into their repertoire. The curiosity resides in the fact that (here) it is not sung, but played by a non-gypsy, Gheorghe Zamfir, who dominated and provoked jealousy in the group of gypsy musicians that was accompanying him

these are from marcel cellier`s field recordings in romania in the 60`s.... zamphir was the king of the panflute in romania replacing fanica luca after his death (marcel cellier same album track 2) . I know he toured in the 70`s with ansamblul ciocarlia playing romanian folk songs all over the world. I think no list of people who play lautari repertoire could be complete without the "king of the panflute" you just need to listen to any of his romanian recordings for more proof than that ..... I have no idea why the best romanian folk panflute player ended up playing "the rose" on my TV set in the 80`s ..probably because he moved to america... there`s probably more money to be made in the U.S.A. playing american pop favorites than romanian folklore (wich is sad)

as for another discussion ...

I see, so you're not actually saying he was playing at weddings, etc., just that he was playing music from the repertoire. OK. That I knew. - Jmabel | Talk 23:21, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

another discussion[edit]

... lautari is a word sometimes used to describe a roma cast or clan in romania (wich are traditionaly musicians) like lovari (traditionaly horse dealers) , kalderash (traditionaly metal smiths), ursari (traditionaly bear trainers) just to name a few .... it also appears that lautari is the romanian word for a traditional musician ... I am hesitant to make a change here since I`m still looking for a reliable source or paper on the subject and there are some conflicting stories ... but many CD liner notes and internet sites claim that lautari are a cast of roma people who are traditionaly musicians that live in and outside of romania ... the dolmetch online music dictionary states Lautar (s.), Lautari (pl.) Romanian Roma musician, traditional entertainers at weddings and other celebratory occasions http://www.dolmetsch.com/defsl.htm ... if this turns out to be true then Zamfir would not be a lautari, he would just be someone who plays lautari music .... is all of this is confusing??!!

... is it that the roma musicians in romania called their cast after the romanian word for musician?? or is it that romanians just started calling musicians "lautari" because the great majority of musicians where roma lautari?? ... only a linguist can tell us now

I've been letting most of the misspellings slide, but one here is significant: may I assume that by "cast" you mean "caste"?

I'm not a native (or even truly fluent) Romanian speaker, so I don't know much on the history of this very Romanian word.

Other than that, you now seem to be saying more or less what I've been saying all along, that there is more to being a lăutar than just playing songs drawn from a particular repertoire. - Jmabel | Talk 23:25, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

just wondering if your not a native or even fluent in romanian then how do you know its a "very romanian word"??

Six months in Romania, reasonably serious self-study of the language (I read it pretty well, but as I said, I'm not fluent), a lot of Romanian friends and colleagues in the U.S.; various non-trivial levels of knowledge of about half a dozen other Romance languages and of miscellaneous other languages. I'm pretty sure that there is no similar word with similar meaning in any of the other Romance langauges. It could well be related to Spanish laúd, Provençal laút, English lute, but all of those are rather specific to one instrument, and don't have this particular sense. A luthier (French and, from that, English) builds instruments, rather than plays them. I can't think of any other likely Latin root, and I'm pretty sure that it's not of Slavic origin, that being the next largest source of Romanian words. I could be mistaken and, again, I'm not claiming expertise on this, but I think I'm in a position to make good educated guesses, which is usually "good enough for the talk page." - Jmabel | Talk 06:11, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

there`s also more to being a lautar than being a peasant and playing at weddings some lautari live in cities and play in bars or restaurants ...some live in other countries and work other jobs... this page needs to show that lautari are a roma clan —The preceding unsigned comment was added by JDRich (talk • contribs) 28 August 2006.

You've written in the article "lăutar … is the Romanian word for folk musician" and I'm pretty sure that is not true. For example, I'm pretty sure no one would call a person from Transylvania who sang traditional Magyar music a lăutar. - Jmabel | Talk 06:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

thats true they would probably call them a magyar!!...(if that`s wath they are). maybe a lautar playing a magyar song would still be a lautar ?? and a magyar playing a lautar song would still be a magyar?? ... what I meant is that the word lautar is today in the romanian vocabulary ... I see different translations from on-line dictionarys they all define lautar differently sometimes fiddler, musician, folk musician, roma musician, ect ... maybe there is a better way to phrase it so that it`s clearer? ...by the way sir Richard F. Burton in "The jew, the gypsy, and el islam" states ... "Let me note that the popular Romani word for musician,Lautar (plural Lautari), may either be the Persian Lútí,l or more probably a deformed offspring of the Arabic El ’Aúd, which gave rise to our “lute.”" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by JDRich (talk • contribs) 31 August 2006.

The Burton quote should probably go in the article. Do you have a citation on that? - Jmabel | Talk 03:37, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

this book is avalable on-line in pdf form I think it is from 1898 and is the oldest reference I have found to date —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 142.166.230.105 (talk • contribs) 1 September 2006.

Weird: the online version I can find (whose accuracy I have no particular reason to doubt) is on the site of a "white nationalist" who apparently reprinted it because he relishes Burton's anti-Semitism; it is available as HTML and as a Word doc, not a PDF. Here's how I'll credit it.

Sir Richard F. Burton, "A review of M. Paul Bataillard's Reviews" in The Gypsy, collected in The Jew, the Gypsy and El Islam, Herbert S. Stone & Co. (Chicago and New York, 1898), p. 176. Available on line, on the white nationalist web site JRBooksOnline.

- Jmabel | Talk 18:38, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

here`s where I found the complete PDF version ... www.jrbooksonline.com/PDFs/The%20Jew,%20the%20Gypsy%20and%20El%20Islam%20JR.pdf ...did not know richard burton was such a contriversial figure ....

That's from the same site. I linked the HTML, rather than the PDF, since the content is identical and PDF is a proprietary format.

Burton himself isn't particularly controversial. Other than a lack of prudishness, for the most part, his attitudes are reasonably typical of his time and nationality, and anti-Semitism was almost a given. My remarks aren't particularly about Burton but about the site that hosts the book. Normally a white nationalist site would not be an acceptable source, but in this case they seem to be providing an accurate online copy of a work that is, itself citable. Pretty much the same issue as if we were citing a document a copy of which was hosted on a legionary site. - Jmabel | Talk 23:12, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

searching for roma connection[edit]

my search of "lautari clan" on google brought me to this canadian court decision. http://decisions.fct-cf.gc.ca/en/2003/2003fct770/2003fct770.html ... it seems the canadian court recognizes lautari as a romanian roma clan.

this biography of Nicolae Neacsu http://www.guardian.co.uk/obituaries/story/0,3604,792719,00.html ... states that neascu was part of the lautari caste

can national goegraphic be wrong?.... because in this article http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:0ZXYe3K5SP4J:worldmusic.nationalgeographic.com/worldmusic/view/page.basic/country/content.country/romania_877+lautari+caste&hl=en&gl=ca&ct=clnk&cd=5 ... they also claim that lautari are a roma caste of musicians in romania

arent there any lautari out there to settle this question?

Relatively unlikely that you will find anyone who will just happen across this, and I suspect that there are very few actual lăutari on line. However, you could probably contact someone at the Museum of the Romanian Peasant, who would most likely be able to answer your questions. - Jmabel | Talk 23:27, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

i got this as reply to my question about the origins of the lautari from the museum

Dear JDR, Indeed, the things are not clear in the scolars' writings. The lautari are, in my opinion, a professional clan steaming from different "historical" clans (recognized as such): ursari, lingurari, corturari. Maybe from other clans too, but I do not have serious confirmations. It is true that the specialists in Roma do not mention the "lautari" as a historical clan. Maybe they were not. In the past. It is all I can tell you now - I am in a hurry. Speranta Radulescu —The preceding unsigned comment was added by JDRich (talk • contribs) 28 August 2006.

"Lautar" is a Romanian word deriving from the word "lauta" meaning "violin" with the suffix "ar". So of course I don't agree that lautar = Gipsy in fact i'm quite upset by this fact. In the 19th and begining of the 20th century the urban folklore aka lautareasca developed and was of course playied mainly by the Gipsyes but they played Romanian music in Romanian language for the Romanian audience not to make any confusions here, to say lautareasca is Gipsy music means nothing more than that fact that you must have never heared real Gipsy music till now. In the villages where the traditional Romanian folklore continued to exist, the lautari were Romanians, of course they were not profesionals like the Gipsyes, that is the difference and why the Gipsyed replaced the Romanian instrumentists, it's only because the Romanians had other ocupation to earn a living like working the land in the country side etc and sang only at ocasions, while the Gipsy lautars earned their living only from singing. I think you will be very surprised going at a Gipsy reunion and hearing what king of music they play and listen. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.106.156.238 (talk • contribs) 18 November 2006.

Are you really saying that Speranţa Rădulescu doesn't know what she's talking about? It would seem to me that a Ph.D. ethnomusicologist at the Muzeu Taranului Român is a rather credible source. - Jmabel | Talk 04:57, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Speranta Radulescu appears to have been answering a question specifically about the "lautari clan". The DEx, published by the Romanian Academy, is indeed THE source to follow in matters of Romanian etimology: http://dexonline.ro/search.php?cuv=lautar. Which, btw, "Sir Richard Francis Burton", as good an "explorer, translator, writer, soldier, orientalist, ethnologist, linguist, poet, hypnotist, fencer and diplomat" as he might have been, isn't. Also, read my post below.

merry (really) 17:14, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have any ideea what Speranta Radulescu is saying, but i can guess, in Romania nowadays the stupidity rules the country so you must be very carefully and not take everything for granted, even if it cames for the president, but do a little research for yourself. Now if SR is from Bucharest where indeed lautar = tigan i can anticipate her opinnion and if it's what i supose it is, still she has no excuse, but for the other Romanians who doesn't live in Bucharest or other large cities from S Romania and who know well the country side i must say in lautar means nothing but traditional music instrumentist. Here you can find one example of a type of Gipsy music, try to isolate the modern beat and to listen for the vocal part, sorry but i didn't found another example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhXU9POaR5A compare it with the Romanian folklore sang by Taraf de Haidouks (who ar ealso Gypsies: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTBfDBQKH8k or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENvPuAA5odI

), i didn't look at the top of this thread to see SR opinnion but i looked now and i must say i was right, i allways am, :). As i'm sure you can notice, SR is very unsure on the "lautari" subject, this is a way of saying she have no ideea :) to quote from her text: "in my opinion", "maybe", "the things are not clear", "I do not have serious confirmations"... If this looks to you like a "credible source" then you must be a very credule person. No offence intended, i used to read your blog during your staying in Romania a couple of years ago and i must say i apreciate you very much.

Who added this in the article? "During the centuries of Ottoman rule in Romania, Roma musicians where often employed to provide entertainment in the courts of the Turkish rulers. After the Turks left Romania, most of these musicians settled in the rural areas where they sought new employment at weddings, funerals, and other traditional romanian celebrations." This is the most hillarious part, there were never Turkish rullers in Romania! Some of the Gipsy lautari sang for the people that could aford it, at the inns at the boyar mansions at the court of the princes, even Michael the Brave when entered Alba iulia he entered in the sounds of lautari who accompanied him during his campains. That's why the folklore is so developed in Muntenia and Moldova, apart for the music of the pesants it was this comercial folklore sang mainly by Gipsy bands, party songs 'de petrecere', they are cool no doubt about this, they had to pick the most entretaining songs otherwise they could remain without customers. I must say i'm very, very dissapointed by this article, very unprofessional, and so are many other articles about the Romanian folklore. Please be very carefull on aproaching a subject without doing some field research in all the corners of Romania. If you listened only some Gipsy bands from Bucharest and surrounding area or reading the conclusion of people that did the same superificial research and reach the conclusion that only the Gipsyes are lautari you can only mislead people.

This is a place where you can listen to some examples of Romanian folclore, most are quite poor examples but still http://www.dunav.org.il/balkan_music_romania.html And look here http://www.romanianvoice.com/culture/populara/index.php at the top of the page at the folk dances, you can find two most autentic sarbe, it's worth listening to them, you may also want to check Liviu Vasilica.

If the ottomans never ruled romania then why did Romania declare independence from the Ottoman Empire in 1877, and, following a Russian-Romanian-Turkish war, its independence was recognized by the Treaty of Berlin, 1878, making it the first independent national state in the eastern half of Europe you need to look at romanian history....

I don't know who you are, but you clarly have no idea of the Romanian history, I'll quote again from the article: "During the centuries of Ottoman rule in Romania, Roma musicians where often employed to provide entertainment in the courts of the Turkish rulers. After the Turks left Romania, most of these musicians settled in the rural areas where they sought new employment at weddings, funerals, and other traditional romanian celebrations."

Turkish rullers? Courts of the Turkish rullers? Please show me a Turkish ruller in the entire Romanian history. After the Turks left Romania? The Turks were not allowed to colonize Moldavia and Wallachia or to build mosques. That's why you cannot see any mosques. This does not apply to areas directly under Turkish control like Braila, Turnu, Giurgiu, Dobrogea, Bugeac and for a short period Hotin.

As for: "If the ottomans never ruled romania then why did Romania declare independence from the Ottoman Empire in 1877, and, following a Russian-Romanian-Turkish war, its independence was recognized by the Treaty of Berlin, 1878, making it the first independent national state in the eastern half of Europe you need to look at romanian history...." This is hillarious, the Ottoman Empire was the only the suzerain power that's all. They didn't rulled Romania. Thus beeing said go and study and stop giving lessons without having any ideea about what you were talking.

you could be right... i just quoted "Romania declared independence from the Ottoman Empire in 1877, and, following a Russian-Romanian-Turkish war, its independence was recognized by the Treaty of Berlin, 1878, making it the first independent national state in the eastern half of Europe " from the wiki history of romania page ... and god knows not to beleive anything you read on wiki .... as for the statement in this article, I would agree to take it out unless someone can provide a reference or source.

Well, the independence thing is also mentioned in the Ottoman Empire article. Just to a word search for Romania within the article and you'll find it. Unfortunately, I cannot really contribute anything to this subject as I don't have any good sources, and can only point out connections to other Wikipedia articles in this case.--Vercalos 06:33, 1 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'll not argue with you anymore as you clarely have absolutelly no knowledge or expertize in this issue, in fact you have no idea. This article is a shame and shall be deleted or edited since allready is influencing some morons. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.106.156.238 (talk • contribs) 5 January 2007.

Disambiguation[edit]

I think we should make a difference between the generic [Romanian] term "Lăutar" and the Roma clan. "Lăutar", according to the DEx ("Dictionarul Explicativ al limbii romane", the most authoritative source on the Romanian language)[1] is formed from "lăută" (meaning lute) and the suffix "-ar", very common in forming occupational names (e.g. morar=miller, from moară=mill + ar). Generally speaking, the -ar suffix originates in the Latin -arius, and expresses a relationship, mainly occupational: [2], last definition (translation: "referring to...", "one who exercises a profession", "one who is qualified".

A translation of the linked article in DEx: "folkloric musician playing a stringed instrument, or, by extension, any instrument, usually within a band; fiddler"

Names of Roma clans in Romania are usually Romanian occupational names: Căldărar (bucket-maker, căldare=bucket; -aş replaces -ar regionally), Lingurar (spoon-makers, lingură=spoon), Florar (flower sellers, floare=flower) etc.merry (really) 16:01, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

.. and... Lăutar :) AKoan 14:52, 29 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Lăutari"?[edit]

Why exactly are we using the plural form, "lăutari", and not "lăutar"? – Andreyyshore (talk) 18:40, 22 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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Cultural Misappropriation[edit]

Reading this thread I see the tendency to completely disregard the romanian perspective of cultural preservation. Anyone can partake in cultural arts and contribute to its existence or notoriety, but you can't remove its origins strictly based on numbers, without engaging in misappropriation and ethnic erasure. By percentage there are more white Americans evolved in black culture, that still doesn't transfer its cultural origin or creators, which aren't white. It's still African American culture regardless of the global multicultural engagement. There were significant edits made to this article because it was disingenuous and presented the musical genre as a Rromani creation, which is not an uncommon occurrence in Balkan cultural representation discussions. If you have a problem with ethnic authenticity and cultural autonomy, maybe reassess your values, instead of manically editing an article. Ax022 (talk) 10:25, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]