Talk:Killings and massacres during the 1948 Palestine war/Archive 2

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COMMENT

This page does need to be improved. It would be good to have more sources on Israeli Masacres than just Benny Morris. The Massacre at Lydda or Lod needs its own page (It currently links to Operation Danny) as there are compelling claims that the only basis for the 250 was an Israeli combat report that includes organized Arab forces that attacked after the Israeli's took control. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.243.119.32 (talk) 18:43, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Need to be done. Indeed. Ceedjee (talk) 06:33, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Causes of the massacre

I have put a pov-tag because the Palestinian historians version is not there yet, as well as the one of Ilan Pappé. Ceedjee (talk) 20:48, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Purity of arms

Avi Shlaim is a wp:rs secondary source. I don't think there is any historian today that claim "Purity of Arms" was a precept respected during the 1948 war. There is no reason to make the sentence sounds as if it was not a "fact" if there is no other source stating something else. I can bring others by the way. And it is only if there is a discussion between current historians about that that topic (but we need wp:rs source of equivalent standing) that we can chose a structure : "A says... while B says...". Ceedjee (talk) 05:45, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. I think that most historians will agree that in some cases "purity of arms" was not respected, but few will claim that it was not respected generally.Igorb2008 (talk) 07:36, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
I don't think so but it doesn't mind.
The best and only way is that we find wp:rs sources from recent historians that claim "purity of arms" is not a myth. I don't think I have any. The only possibility I see would be from Mordechai Bar-On. I check on my side. Ceedjee (talk) 08:50, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
"Traditional version" mentioned, dispute this version. Research of "New histroians" is disputed, and not a fact or only view.So as a controversial, disputed statement, it should be identified as POV of the author. It is also would be also interesting to know if any other "new historians" came to the same conclusions regarding purity of arms issue in war of 1948Igorb2008 (talk) 10:23, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
Research of New historian is not disputed. If you don't know what is disputed or not in their work, study.
In their work, there are facts and points of views.
Not only new historians in fact.
Whatever you want to add, please, provide wp:rs sources.
here are some. Do you know Anita Shapira ? She was one of the most virulent critic of first analysis of Benny Morris's work. Ceedjee (talk) 05:49, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
You add controversial, disputed by traditional version, quote, and present it as a fact. That is the problem. It is even written like a quote and opinion, and not as fact .It says " It has long been taught in Israeli schools", but it is not taught in Israeli schools, no were in Israeli schoolbooks Purity of arms in 1948 war is discussed. It says "used extensively abroad in the quest for legitimacy", legitimacy of what exactly? It says "now considered to be one of the myths of the 1948 war", considered by who? And what are "myths of the 1948 war"? I think this phrase will mean different depending on Israeli or Palestinian narrative of the war. It is Avi Shlaim opinion, his quote, and it must be identified as such. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Igorb2008 (talk • contribs) 09:56, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
That is not Avi Shlaim opinion.
These are facts reported by Avi Shlaim, a wp:rs secondary source.
I have given you references where it is explained the same (not for 1948 it is true) but from opponent to new historians.
If you don't what are the myths of the 1948 war, why do you contribute this topic ?
First study, then talk.
And if something is disputed, then provide a source that disputes this. From what I know, what is written is not disputed.
  • Purity of Arms is in the collective Israeli memory; If Shlaim talks about schools, I assume it is because it is one of the place where collective memory is built
  • legitimacy of the Israeli policy, as a whole.
  • considered by historians
So, first study, bring wp:rs material, and then talk.
Ceedjee (talk) 10:18, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Actually the War of Independence is not even taught in Israeli schools except a brief overview, and there's certainly nothing about Purity of Arms there, and can't be because it's a value not made official until 1994. Avi Shlaim is not a WP:RS secondary source, and even if he was, there's no evidence corroborating his vague statement (as Igorb2008 has clarified). In any case, I have several official or semi-official Israeli history books on the war, and none of them makes any mention of Purity of Arms (I looked thoroughly because, if you may remember, we had the same dispute in the article Purity of arms).

In other words, I have no sources directly countering Shlaim's claim, and it is fairly clear that this material is not taught in Israeli schools today. Therefore, while there is no outright proof that Shlaim's claims are wrong, there isn't a shred of other evidence that they are right—certainly a controversial claim like this would be talked about by other historians? Therefore, the claim should probably stay as no one (so far) can prove that it's false, but because of its disputed nature, the clause "According to Avi Shlaim" (or a variation thereof) should also stay (WP:NPOV). -- Ynhockey (Talk) 10:09, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

  • I showed you "purity of arms" concept existed before in the talk page of that article. Did you forget ?
  • look, written in 1986 and talking about before 1948.
  • Avi Shlaim is a wp:rs secondary source. Wikipedian editors, you and Igor, are not.
  • No source ? Nothing to add.
Ceedjee (talk) 10:23, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
I understand that what I added might be construed as an interpretation, however, there are millions of theories out there, like the idea that stock prices are moved by the signs of the Zodiac, for which you will find no RS that says that it is bogus, simply because there is no reason to spend time rejecting such silliness. Although I am not putting Shalaim's claims into that category, it is clearly just one school of thought, which if I read the quote as it was in there, one would think is the dominant one (i.e., that the Arab world did not try and remove Israel from the face of the earth in 1948). I am trying to get hold of Aaron Wolf's book, "Purity of Arms", because this almost certainly will discuss the IDF philosophy. The abstract and reviews of the book -- from 1989 I believe -- discuss how "Purity of Arms" is a core concept of the IDF and how difficult it was for IDF members to follow it in practical situations. The bottom line is that outside of that book, and the recent academic debate, nobody has ever heard of purity of arms. Not sure it even belongs in this article. Furthermore, although there are plenty of books that will point out that Irgun et al were far from pure in their methods (I have always argued that they were terrorists, just like Hamas and Hezbollah are), and that there is blame to go around on all sides from the 1948 era (as well as now), the whole paragraph reeked of an attempt to make it look like Shalaim et al's "history" is accepted throughout the world, which it clearly is not. Although Ceedjee has made a valiant attempt to include the commonly accepted history, when the final paragraph states as fact something that is in debate, the whole thing becomes NPOV. It would be like me saying, during Copernicus' lifetime, before the whole world knew him to be correct (notice I am not saying Shalaim is wrong) something like:"Church teachings firmly show that all Heavenly bodies revolve around the Eartha and that the Earth is the center of the Universe. This has been taught for time immemorial. However, as it turns out, the Earth revolves around the Sun." Of course, we all know this to be true, but if it had been on en.medievalwikipedia.com during Copernicus' lifetime, that statement would be 100% misleading and bordering on a lie, since it did represent the common thinking of that time. Shalaim's research may prove to be 100% correct, but that is not what the whole world understands. Until that changes, the paragraph must make it clear that this is the author's opinion only, at a minimum, and really should point out that it is not commonly accepted throughout the majority of the world.Sposer (talk) 12:12, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
It was a Haganah slogan to differentiate their 'Jewish ethical' approach to war from that of the Irgun/Lehi fighters, and drew on Orde Wingate's principles when he trained them back in the late 30s. It became standard in both in the IDF training manuals and propaganda, and the Israeli press, where I have encountered it hundreds of times, as a characteristic of the Israeli army. Shlaim is not a propagandist. He is an Oxford scholar, with a lifetime in Israel, and is saying absolutely nothing controversial. It is a commonplace. The Israeli army is no more or less ethical, or imbued with purity of arms, than any other arguably. Well, it's recent record from 1982 says the opposite actually, but. . armies are armies. What he says in this regard is not an academic polemic, or a perception of an historical school. It is not a personal opinion.Nishidani (talk) 13:11, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
That said, your edit is correct, Sposer.Nishidani (talk) 13:14, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
I think that Spocer`s last edit is good version that might be accepted by anyone. Igorb2008 (talk) 13:45, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
I am also fine with Sposer's edit, although I removed the "quest for legitimacy" part, which is not clear and doesn't really say anything (although it implies that the actions were illigitimate). I hope that doesn't bother anyone--the paragraph still says the same thing. --Ynhockey (Talk) 21:54, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
A part of Sposer last edit will -of course- being deleted. If there is a debate, provide wp:rs sources that state the contrary.
"The bottom line is that outside of that book, and the recent academic debate, nobody has ever heard of purity of arms"
That is false. As proven in the talk page of the article Purity of arms. And you own phrasing proves this. How could it be accepted in the Western world, if only discussed in the academic media.
Ceedjee (talk) 07:56, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Ceedjee, by now you're simply engaging in edit warring against consensus. Stop talking about WP:RS in every post, and start respecting Wikipedia's other non-negotiable policies, such as WP:NPOV and WP:CON. Nishidani, Igor and myself already agreed with Sposer's edit, you shouldn't completely refactor it to suit your needs and present Avi Shlaim as 'academics'. --Ynhockey (Talk) 09:09, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I supported Sposer original edit because of his reformulation of phrasing. I now see that the whole passage has been substantially elided. For the record, there was nothing wrong in the text as thus phrased by Sposer, if sourced as follows. Ceedjee does have a point that is being ignored.
Stop misprenting facts and stop with your propaganda.
I don't care what people agrees or don't. You have to come with wp:rs sources, particularly on a topic you don't know AS PROVEN ENOUGH NOW.
All of you, respect wp:principles and provide ONE current academic who states the contrary and then we will add you POV, which is currently no sustained by no document.
We don't care your feelings about what is pov. NPOV means equilibrium between wp:rs sources.
No wp:rs sources, nothing to add. Ceedjee (talk) 15:36, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

It has long been taught in Israeli schools and used extensively abroad in the "quest for legitimacy" that during the 1948 War, Israel military forces practiced the precept of "Purity of arms" in the quest for legitimacy.[1][2]

Avi Shlaim is an academic. This should not be questioned. And secondly, Ceedjee is correct in saying that over the last decades, it is accepted in the literature that there was a gross disparity between the slogan of the Haganah, and actual battlefield practice. No army with a record of winning practices 'purity of arms'. It's a vapid empty, extremely embarrassing cliché, violated everyday on the West Bank, and everybody in the IDF knows it.Nishidani (talk) 10:04, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Nobody disputing that Avi Shlaim is an academic or that his research is notable to be included.What is disputed is that it is presented as fact, even though it is disputed by traditional, commonly accepted version and it is controversial statement, over witch is no consensus. And in Wikipedia articles I seen in such cases it is not presented as fact but written as "according to..." . For example in Allied war crimes during World War II article, on behavior of Allied soldiers in the Pacific war, all the research is written as "according to...", even though opposing views are not presented. Because of all this I consider Spocer`s version good compromise.
I personally would agree with Nishidani , that no army with a record of winning that never violate Purity of arms, but there is a long way from violate Purity of arms, to not practicing it. Every army often violates "Purity of arms" when it contradicts other army values such as "comradeship" for example, ( I don`t think there are many field commanders in any army, that in battle will rather assault with infantry, sniper in a building, rather then calling artillery or air support, possibly hurting civilians). Massacres, that described in the article clearly violates it also. But to say that army does not practice Purity of arms, is to say that army practically does not have policy of taking POW alive, and have no policy of discrimination between combatants and civilians. Which will be untrue for the war. If to check policy on POW for example, Israel held 6306 Arab POW in the end of the war, as opposed to total 8000 to 15000 war casualties from Arab side. In Pacific war for example, ratio of captured to killed mentioned is from 1:20 to 1:7.
As for West Bank now, even though my answer does not belong here,and feel free to delete it,I would like to say, as Israeli, who served in the army, that I disagree with Nishidani. Purity of arms is definitely practiced in the conflict.There were violations of course, and there are problems, as sometimes army cover them up, as any army, or gives very lax sentences, but mostly they are prosecuted. I know a guy who was jailed for picking watermelon in Palestinian farm and smashing it on the ground, so of course criminal violations of Purity of arms are punished. Igorb2008 (talk) 13:30, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Ceedjee writes from sources. We may dispute sources, but only on technical grounds, not by adducing our personal reasons for disagreeing with sources. There are many very good sources I disagree with, but I even add them, or support those who do, because our job here is simply to enrich articles with the best information available from, optimally, academic sources. It is not enough, therefore, to disagree. Either one gives sources that counter these sources one dislikes, or one is obliged to keep searching until one finds those sources.
As to the West Bank, I get daily reports on soldier behavior all over there. All modern armies have a code of ethics, often violated, not only because 5% of soldiers are, as the Marine Corps' studies over time indicate, natural killers. 'Purity of arms' is a cliché that has long outworn its use-by-date. If soldiers behave well, it is not because of some nationalistic cliché. They behave well because they manage to retain their humanity, even while occupying foreign land. It's an individual matter, and no army that boasts of some peculiar morality should be taken at its word. It's an outright invitation to hypocrisy.Nishidani (talk) 13:40, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Purity of arms is a code of ethics not different from code of ethics of all other modern armies, no better, no worse. But an army that practice code of ethics, often violated, true enough, is not the same as the army that does not practice code of ethics. In my opinion it is not always individual matter. Often education in ethics, in army and before, as well as personal example of commanders and older,more experienced soldiers, also important factor. Igorb2008 (talk) 14:10, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
WP:SOAP.
On wikipedia, we report information from wp:rs sources. Go and read. We don't care WP:PR, even if right or clever. Ceedjee (talk) 15:38, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Problems with the article

I think that article as a whole is cearly not neutral POV, and I think many parts of it are problematic

1)Hadassah medical convoy massacre, explained as possibly result of battle, while there is no such comments in regards to other massacres, despite that there are similar claims for Deir Yassin for example. Operation Danny was a battle. Al-dawayima was investigated by the UN, and no evidence of massacre was found. If this if these events mentioned claimed to be massacres, all of this must be mentioned.

That is what the source say and it is clearly stated why Benny Morris says so. Ceedjee (talk) 06:05, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

2) Despite their rhetoric, Arab armies committed few atrocities and no large-scale massacre of prisonners while they could have done so when they took the Old City of Jerusalem or the settlements of Atarot, Neve Yaakov, Nitzarim, Gezer and Mishmar Hayarden. On the contrary, on 28 May, when the inhabitants and fighters of the Old City surrendered and while they feared for their lives, the Transjordanian Arab Legion protected them from the mob and even shot dead and wounded other Arabs.

I think that these passage should be removed. Atarot and Neve Yaakov populations were evacuted before they were captured and only in Nitzarim there were more then hundred survivors. In the end,no Jewish population remained in territories under Arab control, while more then 160000 Arabs remained in the territories under Israeli control. So to write about Arab`s unused opportunities to commit massacres, while at the same time writing about " atrocities committed by the IDF" is very distorted and not neutral way to describe the events.

That is what Benny Morris says. Do you have other wp:rs sources ? Ceedjee (talk) 06:05, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

3)If questioning of Israeli purity of arms concept belongs to this article, then similar concepts of Arab armies, must also be discussed. It would be interesting to know if there are revisionist Arab historians, similar to Israeli "New historians", and what is their opinion on the matter.

Do you have a wp:rs source about the concept of purity of arms in Arab armies ? The concept for Tsahal has an article in wikipedia. There are numerous wp:rs sources talking about this?
But we can discuss this if you have wp:rs sources that discuss this. Ceedjee (talk) 06:05, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

4)Scale. There is mention of about 800 civilian and POWs killed by the Yashuv. 2400 Jewish civilians killed, and this not counting those killed before 1948 Arab armies invasion, should also be mentioned.Igorb2008 (talk) 09:48, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

No. you are wrong. Ceedjee (talk) 06:05, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
You are correct on all four counts. The state that this article is currently in is a result of the work of several editors who have literature almost exclusively written by New Historians, and they were not acting in bad faith. The main issue here is sources, and I haven't had time to comb through Israeli literature to find any counter-claims (although from personal knowledge, they exist of course). If you have such literature, please add the necessary material, and I will help with stylistic/policy-related changes if needed. Thanks, Ynhockey (Talk) 10:39, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
The state of this article is a real improvement in comparison of what was existing before.
About "a result of the work of several editors who have literature almost exclusively written by New Historians, and they were not acting in bad faith". I developed this article, so I am your target.
I am the only one wikipedia who has sources from all sides and who use them so keep your attack for yourself.
Look at in the history where this article comes from !!!
Ceedjee (talk) 06:05, 16 April 2009 (UTC)


Not at all, and this has nothing to do with 'New Historians'. It has everything to do that historians since the 1980s have access to state archives never available to the old Zionist historians. It was well put by Shlaim.
Collectively we came to be called the Israeli revisionists or the new historians. Neither term is entirely satisfactory. The term revisionists in the Zionist lexicon refers to the right-wing followers of Zeev Jabotinsky who broke away from the mainstream Zionism in 1925 whereas the new historians are located on the political map somewhere to the left of the mainstream. On the other hand the term new historians is rather self-congratulatory and dismissive, by implication, of everything written before the new historians appeared on the scene as old and worthless. Professor Yehoshua Porath of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem has suggested as alternative terms pre-history and history. But this is only slightly less offensive towards the first category of historians. So, for lack of a better word, I shall use the label 'old' to refer to the proponents of the standard Zionist version on the 1948 War and the label 'new' to the recent left-wing critics of this version, including myself.

The first thing to note about the new historiography is that much of it is not new. Many of the arguments that are central to the new historiography were advanced long ago by Israeli writers, not to mention Palestinian, Arab and Western writers. To list all these Israeli writers is beyond the scope of this article but a few examples might be in place. One common thread that runs through the new historiography is a critical stance towards David Ben-Gurion, the founder of the State of Israel and its first Prime Minister. Whereas the old historians tend to view Ben-Gurion as representative of the consensus among the civilian and military elites, the new historians tend to portray him as the driving force behind Israel's policy in 1948, and particularly the policy of expelling the Palestinians. Many of the recent criticisms of Ben-Gurion, however, are foreshadowed in a book written by former IDF official historian, Lieutenant-Colonel Israel Baer, in prison after he was convicted of spying for the Soviet Union.[8]A significant start in revising the conventional Zionist view of British policy towards the end of the Palestine mandate was made by Gavriel Cohen in a volume with a characteristically old-fashioned title - Hayinu Keholmim, 'we were as dreamers.'[9]Yaacov Shimoni, deputy-director of the Middle East Department in the Foreign Ministry in 1948, published a highly perceptive article on the hesitations, doubts, reservations and differences of opinion that attended the Arab decision to intervene in Palestine in May 1948.[10] This article which is at odds with the dominant Zionist narrative is all the more noteworthy for having been written by an insider. Meir Pail wrote another corrective to the notion of a monolithic Arab world, focusing in particular on the conflict between King Abdullah of Jordan and the Palestinians.[11] The Zionist version about the causes of the Palestinian refugee problem was called into question by a number of Israeli writers and most convincingly by Rony Gabbay.[12] Finally, the argument that Israel's commitment to peace with the Arabs did not match the official rhetoric can be traced to a book published under a pseudonym by two members of the Israeli Communist Party.[13]Although many of the arguments of the new historiography are not new, there is a qualitative difference between this historiography and the bulk of the earlier studies, whether they accepted or contradicted the official Zionist line. The difference, in a nutshell, is that the new historiography is written with access to the official Israeli and Western documents whereas the earlier writers had no access, or only partial access, to the official documents. Nishidani (talk) 17:14, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Niushdani, in your quote of Shlaim, he himself do not dismiss "old Histroians" research as old or worthless, but view himself and other "new historians" as critics of their version. As you yourself write,many of the arguments that are central to the new historiography existed before access to state archives, alongside "old historiography", and both schools of history still exist after access to state archives. Today`s critics of "new historians" also have access to the archives and they base their criticism on the same documents. So "new historians" views are hardly indisputable or even mainstream.
But, problem with the article, is not that it is based only on research of "new historians", but with styling that make it cearly not neutral POV. If alternate views on Hadassah medical convoy massacre belong here, then alternate views on other massacres belong here. If questioning of Israeli purity of arms concept belongs to this article, then similar concepts of Arab armies, must also be discussed. If Arab non-combatants killed by Yashuv forces are mentioned, then Yashuv non-combatants killed by Arab armies should also be mentioned. And mentioning Arab unused opportunities to commit massacres does not belong here, unless similar very very long list of Arab settlements taken by Israel is added, or unless there is claim in the article that must be rebuked , that Arab forces did not take prisoners and always massacred captured population.Igorb2008 (talk) 20:01, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
  • "Today`s critics of "new historians" also have access to the archives and they base their criticism on the same documents"
Then, provide the material. You talked too much up to now, without giving any reference. Ceedjee (talk) 06:05, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
  • " is based only on research of "new historians"
It is mainly based on Morris but the analysis of yoav Gelber, who is not a new historian is given. There is also palestinian historian. If you have access to David Tal last book it is welcome.
  • "ut with styling that make it cearly not neutral POV"
Where? Give the sentences on the talk page.
  • "then alternate views on other massacres belong here"
What are they ? Please provide wp:rs source. Nothing prevents anybody to add information.
  • "then Yashuv non-combatants killed by Arab armies should also be mentioned"
It is done from what concerns the massacres.
  • "And mentioning Arab unused opportunities to commit massacres does not belong here"
Morris said so in his conclusiosn about massacre; so it belongs to this article.
Ceedjee (talk) 06:05, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
Ceedjee, the problem is not much with what is included but with what not included. All what is discussed about Jewish side, must be also discussed for Arab side, in similar way. If alternate views on Hadassah medical convoy massacre by Benny Morris is mentioned, then Uri Milstein alternate views on Deir Yassin massacre must also me mentioned, for example. If Arab unused opportunities to commit massacres is mentioned right after mentioning "Israeli atrocities", then list of Arabs settlements taken by Yashuv should also be added.And so forth on all parts of the article.Igorb2008 (talk) 09:18, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
(edit conflict)
You are clearly missing the point that Igorb2008 was trying to make. He is saying that the article is not neutral (i.e. not WP:NPOV), not that it violates WP:RS. I have to completely agree with that, and while the research done for it by you was sound (again, read the previous post before making accusations, I said and were not acting in bad faith), it's a fact that all the sources used, except two mini-paragraphs paraphrased from Gelber, are New Historians: Benny Morris, Tom Segev, Simha Flapan, Avi Shlaim and Ilan Pappé. I agree that ultimately Igorb2008 (and myself for that matter) should look for reliable sources to counterbalance the claims made in the article, but not having them does not give anyone else a license to just use these sources, and give undue weight to claims like the ones made by Shlaim.
Moreover, we both know that 'old' historians tend to usually ignore any information about the massacres, except sometimes the Deir Yassin Massacre, speaking of which, Uri Milstein who is at least as notable and credible as either Pappé or Shlaim, wrote an entire book saying that it was not a massacre. There is zero mention of his perspective in the article (I unfortunately don't have the book to cite it). --Ynhockey (Talk) 09:34, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
The cliché about 'New historians' (i.e., harvesting material from one school, as opposed to another = undue weight) is just that, a cliché. A break occurred in Israeli historiography with the expiration of the 30 year rule. It opened archives, many young historians stepped in, and were bundled up as 'New historians'. Their work is no longer that of a school, since their disagreements (Pappé and Morris/Shapira and Morris/) are substantial, indeed often radical, Pappé being an antiZionist, Morris a Zionist. Their work has been assimilated by all area specialists. Secondly no I/P article is 'neutral': They are just (a) badly written mainly (b) poorly sourced (c) in a state of (de)composition. To interpret generically an article in the state of construction as not adequate in terms of NPOV is neither here nor there, since the simple thing to do is to roll up one's sleeves, and improve the article by further sourcing, which is precisely what Ceedjee is requesting. Nishidani (talk) 10:02, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
I don't miss anything. You just don't undertand NPOV and your react with your know-how of the topic.
Your problem, as well as Igor's, it that NPOV means bringing information from WP:RS sources and giving them with due:weight. Not reporting what collective memory reminds about a topic.
Study the topic before accusing me of pov and alledgely using new historians [only]. I am not responsible if there is not information concerning these issues in traditionnal litterature. Note that Israeli historians don't deny the massacres. For exemples, what occured at Lydda and Ramle is described in [old] Rabin's memoirs (without censorship) and the ones of Galilea lead to trials at the time. Some have just recently been discovered (or imagined by Pappe) but that is not the real issue.
This issue is just, quite logically, that the Israeli collective memory didn't "remind" these events and you are frustrated because you discover this information.

You are looking for : Uri Milstein, Blood Libel at Deir Yassin. The consensus is that it is not considered a wp:rs source for wikipedia. I tried to introduce this book at least in the "see also" section in the article about Deir Yassin massacre at the time (you see, I had a pro-Israeli attitude) but that was rejected. Reason is that this book is self published, without echo in the academic level and that he denies the massacre at the quarry. Note that the article about Deir Yassin is not neutral, because if 100 people were killed that day, only a few were massacred. Deir yassin was a battle and after, there has been a massacre of around 20 people. But that is WP:PR, that is not the wording historians use, unfortunately for real neutrality.
Concerning your accusation. It is true you didn't write I was acting by bad faith. But that is even worse. I would be unvoluntary manipulated by my readings ? Who are you making fun of ? I even read non wp:rs sources from Israeli historians. On your side, did you ever read any book/article on the topic written after 1990 ? Ceedjee (talk) 10:04, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
One could add that Milstein's book constitutes, explicitly, a political programme since he explains he write it in the following words:

I pray that for the sake of the survival of the State of Israel, the readership of this book will mass together into a war camp that will neutralize the internal threat; a blighted regime, a foundering security establishment and its subculture; and they will lead Israel to a Copernican revolution.

So much for NPOV and respect for quality sources. What have we here? a call to arms to save Israel?Nishidani (talk) 10:18, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

propaganda

  • "Ceedjee, by now you're simply engaging in edit warring against consensus."

There is of course no consensus. A consensus is 100% agreement.
I am fed up discussing with people who didn't carry EVEN ONLY ONE WP:RS SOURCES when I brought 3 in more of all the former ones.
Next step is third opinion, then dispute resolution. Stop your propaganda. Ceedjee (talk) 15:19, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Study

Ceedjee (talk) 10:36, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

According to a GROWING NUMBER of academic

Please, provide just one who disagrees. Just one.
Anyway, this is admitted at least since 1992 with Anita Shapira publication. Ceedjee (talk) 15:21, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

No, you really don't, since, as I said, people don't bother to disagree with things like the Zodiac changes prices in the stock market, at least not in academic papers. That said, my issue isn't with the academic part. Remove "growing number". My point is the whole "purity of arms" stuff and the idea that the Israeli forces did not at least attempt, more than many other armies, to avoid civilian casualties, is not generally accepted maybe outside of academia during 1948 (outside of from distortions in the Arab world I gather). I am not saying they were perfect and do not doubt that there were many horrible things done by both sides, but Haganah generally tried to stay away from the unecessary. I never heard of the "purity of arms" before I saw it here, but I am no expert on this.Sposer (talk) 16:06, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Sposer, Ceedjee provides sources. Neither you nor anyone else opposing him is. You cannot challenge a reliable source on personal grounds. Shlaim makes 'purity of arms' one of the three features of a 'popular-heroic-moralistic version of the 1948 war (which) is the one which is taught in Israeli schools and used extensively in the quest for legitimacy abroad'. I have therefore reverted you. I don't know what you read, but ever since I got interested, decades ago, in the history of the region, 'purity of arms' comes up constantly: it is part and parcel of IDF ideology, as opposed to practice, and is everywhere in the literature, and in newspapers like Haaretz.Nishidani (talk) 16:36, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
http://www.thejewishweek.com/viewArticle/c232_a12521/Special_Sections/Literary_Guides.html Review of Morris book which discusses purity of arms and summarizes Hagana vs. Arab behavior during the war (not calling it RS since I am sure it is biased). Shapira also does not say Haganah did not practice it in general, but says that it did not always, at least the way I read it on google books. Get rid of growing number if you like, as I said before. Just don't call it the Israeli version unless it is clear that is what Schlaim called it (my latest edit). I've requested the Aaron Wolf book, "A Purity of Arms" as well from my local library. Once I've read it, I will come back. Until then, I am not going to edit this article any longer. Sposer (talk) 16:48, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
In the various versions tussled over, the only technical point that could have been raised in objection was WP:SYNTH. I have therefore avoided all ambiguity by using only Shlaim's words. I hope this puts an end to contention. Far too many edits have been made revising and rewriting this section without precise reference to the easily accessible passage in Shlaim.Nishidani (talk) 16:50, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
A little bit. Indeed. That is not always easy. I want to underline that this article was originally a list and the former title was list of massacres committed during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War... Ceedjee (talk) 19:07, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Attn: Sposer

  • "[Benny Morris] considers too that belligerents behaved reasonably well and that the "1948 [war] is noteworthy for the relatively small number of civilian casualties both in the battles themselves and in the atrocities that accompanied them" in comparison, for example, "with the Yugoslav wars of the 1990s or the Sudanese civil wars of the past fifty years".[1]"
  • Morris estimates that "Yishuv troops probably murdered some 800 hundred civilians and prisoners of war".[1] Most of these killings and massacres occurred in the context of the capture of villages during Second phase of the Civil War, Operation Dani, Operation Hiram and Operation Yoav.[1] According to Benny Morris, "worst cases" were Saliha massacre with 70 to 80 killed, Deir Yassin massacre with around 100, Lydda massacre with around 250, Al-Dawayima massacre with hundreds and Abu Shusha massacre with 70.[2]

Massacres of Jews outside Palestine and threats

Ceedjee (talk) 19:09, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

It would set a bad precedent, Ceedjee. I can imagine a huge section ballooning out on this in which a specific infra-regional war Israeli/Palestine is annotated extensively with large injections of Arab riots, anti-Semitic protests, Jews killed in revenge all over the world. Efraim Karsh may consider this relevant. How many other historians do? Are we to add the dreadful trials of the Tunisian and Moroccan Jewish communities to every article dealing with Palestine in WW2? I know in some quarters doing this is a rhetorical numbers game or balancing act to even out figures to parity. It is, however, not historical in the pure sense, but rather a use of history towards an historian's POV. One reason for me to admire Morris is that he does not descend to this 'tactical' historiography (at least consciously). I am reminded of Anita Shapira's remark that the showcasing of the 1920 Palestinian riots (actually negligible, and not worth that grandiose title, comes from the fact that many new immigrants came from Eastern Europe where 1000 pogroms took place in 1917-1918, of unbelievable organized slaughter. No mention of this in that wiki article, though this mentality did indeed account for the hysteria that made of a minor riot a major historical incident. It was used to attribute to Palestinians, who were to be the victims of an imperial project, the same mentality that governed Petliura in the Ukraine. Nishidani (talk) 19:37, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
It doesn't need to be described as thoroughly as Karsh describes it, but a note should be added somewhere. It's the same issue as the whole Purity of Arms dispute, and should be given due weight as Karsh is a notable academic in the field. --Ynhockey (Talk) 19:50, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
The article deals with massacres occurring between Arabs and Israelis in Palestine in 1948. How the introduction of material about massacres of Jews from Aden and Tripolitana, in countries that played no role in the conflict, can be considered pertinent is not clear (well it is, of course, but such an instrumental use of far-flung incidents can only serve to raise 2/3 massacres of Jews to 4/5 as against 24/68. I find this numbers gaming distasteful). As to Karsh, one does not include everything written by every notable scholar. Ceedjee may have a point if Gelber, Morris, Sela, and several other scholars writing of the period raise the same point. If he can produce such evidence that this is a commonplace in frontranking scholarship, one must reconsider.Nishidani (talk) 20:05, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
It's funny you should say that, because I said the exact same thing for the removal of Shlaim's claim, and you vehemently opposed. If we keep every opinion from historians like Shlaim, then there's no reason not to keep every opinion from historians like Karsh. Keep in mind that I didn't suggest a connection of these massacres with the ones in Palestine, Karsh did. I never said we should have a huge section about this, but a mention is definitely warranted. --Ynhockey (Talk) 00:06, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
@Nishidani : the main reason for me to add this material are that : 1. these were wide massacres (many people; civilians) ; 2. they occured during the 48 war and are closely linked to this ; 3. They are reported in a book about the '48 war from a wp:rs secondary source ; 4. they are not contested, such as eg Tantura
@Ynhockey : Avi Shlaim gives an analysis but Efraim Karsh reports a fact. So Karsh material is even less disussable than Shlaim's... Note that I recently added exactly the analysis but from Morris. So now, we have material from Shlaim, Morris, Gelber and Shapira in the context of purity of arms. I wonder if there could be a more significant consensus among scholars who would refuse to be in the same room.
@both. I added a new paragraph about this topic in the section Arab declarations. Feel free to move this on the talk page if you disagree. Ceedjee (talk) 08:16, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
No Ceedjee. Karsh cannot be accepted, my friend. I hinted why above, and in my edit ('extraneous'), I alluded not only to a geographical fact but a chronological fact. I suppose I will have to be more explicit as to what Karsh was doing ('I know in some quarters doing this is a rhetorical numbers game or balancing act to even out figures to parity.'). Karsh was up to no good. The Aden massacre occurred in Dec 1947 as a reaction to the UN declaration, while the Tripolitana massacre alluded to is completely out of chronological synch, and Karsh had to go back to November 1945 (from memory) for that one, to get two incidents where the numbers of Jewish victims could be thus placed against the similar numbers killed by Jewish/Israeli forces in 1948. The title of the articles in killings and massacres in the 1948 Palestinian war. One must use reliable sources, but not when they are patently using history to create a false impression (which convinced both of you), as here, that the two events in Aden and Tripolitana were contemporary with the '48 massacres of Palestinians. This gaming is one of the things Morris disliked about Karsh.
Ynhockey, apart from your not checking what a source says (one should do this always by the way: some reliable sources still cite 250 victims for Deir Yassin, but informed students know this is wrong, and the figure is 100-120. I don't know what WP policy is, but mine is to make sure that WP:RSs are not just cited for POV, but for accuracy. Only this checking and care for historical relevance and accuracy will secure the reputation of this encyclopedia, which is in the I/P area in a very poor state and requires very strict standards. The analogy between Shlaim ands Karsh is misbegotten. Shlaim makes a generalization for which I can provide several independent sources by other historians. He doesn't even use his own idiom, if you check. Karsh on the other hand pulls out of the rabbit's hat, idiosyncratically, a few pieces of irrelevant data unconnected to the events of 1948, whereas no other historian I know of does the same sleight-of-hand. He apparently did this to confuse readers with the impression the Aden and Tripolitana events were coterminous with Deir Yassin and other massacres. Indeed here he managed to pull the wool over the eyes of two editors who are known for a certain meticulous care. That alone is proof enough we should not imitate Karsh's confusion-sowing in a neutral encyclopedia.Nishidani (talk) 10:02, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
Ok. "I felt in the trap" for Tripolitania ! I am not familiar with these events. Concerning Aden, they aroused during the war (after Nov30 1947 but they may not have been a "big massacre" but rather an accumulation of murders... We need wp:rs sources. I look for that. Ceedjee (talk) 10:23, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

more material

  • Yitschak Ben Gad, Politics, lies and videotapes, 1991 pp.320-... gives a list of "violence" and attacks against Jews in Arab lands... This is maybe not a wp:rs sources for wikipedia (I haven't checked yet) but anyway I think the information is reliable and could be crosschecked Ceedjee (talk) 10:32, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Question

I suggest to move to the historiographical controversies section the analysis of Morris concerning Hadassah medical convoy.
There would be added too the analysis of Picoudou about the fact there were both a battle and a massacre at Deir Yassin [and that both are often mixed], which is the same analysis as the one of Morris concerning Hadassah.
I think also we have to add the one of Uri Milstein BUT in emphasing that addtionnally, he denies a massacre occured in the quarry AFTER the battle.
Eventually, al-Tantura section could be fused with that one, even if I think al-Tantura deserve more wp:due weight than the other points, given it has been highly mediatised.
What do you think ? Ceedjee (talk) 08:26, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

You might compare this account with the Hadassah medical convey massacre page to note how much key information is missing (of course, suffice it to check the notes used to compile that page to understand the poverty of good secondary sources, and the use of primary sources instead)

'Le 14 avril, un convoi médical portant l'enseigne du bouclier de David (emblème non reconnu par la Croix-Rouge) et protégé par des combattants part pour enclave du mont Scopus. Les combattants du quartier arabe que le convoi doit traverser, prévenus à l'avance de ce passage par un officier australien qui leur a affirmé che les hommes de la Haganah ont pour mission d'utiliser l'enclave pour attaquer les quartiers arabes et couper la route de Ramallah, tendent une embuscade. La route est bloquée et la bataille dure plusiers heures. Les sionistes y voient une violation ders conventions, mais le convoi comportait aussie des renforts et des munitions à destination de l'enclave. Les Britanniques finissent par dégager la position et par faire sortir les survivants. Les pertes s'élèvent à 76 morts. Reynier obtient qu'à l'avenir les convois humanitaires soient sans protection militaire et passent sous le drapeau et l'autorité de la Croix-Rouge, ce qui se fait dans les jours qui suivent. En revanche, il pose comme condition, pour mettre l'hôpital de la Hadassah et l'Université hébraïque sous protection du drapeau de la Cropix-Rouge, le retrait de la garnison juive de l'enclave, ce que les autorités sionistes refusent. Ces dernières ne se sont d'ailleurs pas aperçues qu'elles en avaient le droit en tant qu'institution médicale militaire.' Henry Laurens, La Question de Palestine: L'accomplissement des prophéties, 1947-1967, (tome 3) Fayard, Paris, 2007 p.76

Excuse typing errors, still only can write with one hand. Nishidani (talk) 12:01, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Faked quote on Jerusalem Post website

  • On the Jpost website, it is written the Egyptian delegate at the United Nations stated :
"The proposed solution might endanger a million Jews living in the Muslim countries. Partition of Palestine might create in those countries an anti-Semitism even more difficult to root out than Nazism" (The Forgotten Exodus)
"The proposed solution might endanger a million Jews living in the Muslim countries. Partition of Palestine might create in those countries an anti-Semitism even more difficult to root out than the antisemitism which the Allies tried to eradicate in Germany."

Ceedjee (talk) 15:58, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Indivdual killings

I have moved the material concerning individual killings here. I think it is not exactly the topic of the article. More, there have been a lot of individual killings, we should nearly refer to each death of the war... Ceedjee (talk) 09:29, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough. Can you suggest somewhere I could put it? But I don't feel the Hadassah Convoy belongs here either. Or if it does why not include the al-Kabri Convoy (28 March/49 killed)? I see mention of un-armed soldiers. Is there no space for the British soldiers killed in the train bombing outside Rehovoth Cairo–Haifa train bombings 1948?Padres Hana (talk) 15:12, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
I think the difference between the Hadassah convoy and both other ones is that the 1st one was mainly one of civil (escorted by soldiers) while both others were convoys of soldiers.
Ceedjee (talk) 15:44, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

moved material

Individual killings


Thomas C. Wasson : US Consul General in Jerusalem, 1948[3]

Count Bernadotte : UN Mediator.

Other underground killings Palestine/Israel 1948

January 14th: 'believed to have been 'executed' by a Jewish firing squad, the body of a 30 year old Pole was found in the Handassah Gardens in Tel Aviv, ealier today.'[4]

February 27th: Two anti-Communist residents of Jerusalem murdered by Stern Gang 'terrorists' who claimed the Poles were 'pro-Arab'.[5]

April 26th: Jewess married to a Christian Arab taken by the Haganah and not seen again.[6]

March 29th: Vera Ducas

May 21st: 'A Jew and a Pole caught spying a few weeks ago tried by Haganah, and shot'[7]

June 30th: Meyer Tobiansky shot after a 'Field General Court Martial' organised by Lieut-Colonel Isser Beray[8][9][10]

July 8th: Stern Group poster announce execution of Mrs Rosa B. 'on charges of revealing Jewish Military positions to the enemy'[11]

Other deaths

March 31st: Mrs Thompson, a well known Government Social Worker, was shot dead by 'Jewish snipers' whilst driving back from the Arab hospital at Beit Safafa to Jerusalem. She 'shouted in a loud voice that she was British, where upon, ... a further burst of fire riddled the car'.[12]


Context 'Irgun is in fact rapidly becoming the 'SS' of the new state. There is also a strong 'Gestapo' - but no-one knows who is in it.' 'The shopkeepers are afraid not so much of shells as of raids by Irgun Zvai Leumi and the Stern Gang. These young toughs, who are beyond whatever law there is have cleaned out most private houses of the richer classes & started to prey upon the shopkeepers.' Clare Hollingworth reporting on West Jerusalem June 2nd 1948[13][14]

A US Military Intelligence report, dated January 1948, described Irgun recruiting tactics amongst Displaced Persons (DP) in the camps across Germany: 'Irgun ... seems to be concentrating on the DP police force. This is an old technique in Eastern Europe and in all police states. By controlling the police, a small, unscrupulous group of determined people can impose its will on a peaceful and inarticulate majority; it is done by threats, intimidation, by violence and if need be bloodshed ... they have embarked upon a course of violence within the camps.'[15]


VERA DUCAS 1912-1948

Born to 'a good' Jewish Family in Austria-Hungary/Czechoslovakia, Vera Ducas fled the Nazi invasion with husband and child. They lived in Turkey for several years before arriving in Palestine. Eva didn't speak Hebrew and was unable to find work. She is alledged to have become an informer for the British CID.[16]

According to The Scotsman on Sunday 29th March 1948 she was 'kidnapped from one of the main cafes of Jerusalem's Jewish Quarter' and her body found on a patch of waste ground, shot through the head. Their correspondent reported that the Stern Gang had announced that they had killed her, accusing her of spying for the British.[17][18]

Putting list of events into a table

I am planning to enter the list below but should I include the Haganah bombing of the Abu Laban farm which killed 12, including six children? It occured on 15 August 1947 and is thought to be the Haganah's first post - World War II terrorist attack. Just spotted it in Walid Khalidi's 'Before Their Diaspora'. ISBN 0 88728 143 5. 1984. Page 252.Padres Hana (talk) 19:02, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Events

Date Event Victims Notes
14 December 1947 Beit Nabala, al Ramla Convoy
18 December 1947 Al Khisas, Safad Villagers 10 dead including five children[19]
30 December 1947 Haifa Oil Refinery Workers Following Irgun bomb outrage
31 December 1947 Balad al-Shaykh, Haifa Villagers
5 January 1948 Jaffa Town Hall Civilians
5 January 1948 Semiramis Hotel bombing, Jerusalem Civilians
8 January 1948 Jaffa Gate, Jerusalem Civilians
22 Febuary 1948 Ben Yehuda Street, Jerusalem Civilians
13 & 16 March 1948 Al-Husayniyya, Safad Villagers 'the total death toll was put at dozens by Israeli sources[20]
9 April 1948 Deir Yassin, Jerusalem Villagers
13 April 1948 Hadassah Hospital convoy, Jerusalem Convoy
1 May 1948 Ein al Zeitun, Safad Villagers
13 May 1948 Kfar Etzion, Hebron Settlers
13 - 19 May 1948 Abu Shusha, Haifa Villagers
20 May 1948 Al-Kabri, Acre Villagers
23 May 1948 Al-Tantura, Haifa Villagers
11 July 1948 Lydda Civilians
24-28 August 1948 'Arab Suqrir, Gaza Bedouin "ten Arabs who tried to escape were killed."[21]
28 October 1948 Al-Dawayima, Hebron Villagers
29 October 1948 Saf Saf, Safad Between 52 and 70 men shot[22] Villagers
30 October 1948 Saliha, Safad Villagers
30 October 1948 Eilabun, Tiberias Villagers Appears to be different from 2 November event
30 October 1948 Sa'Sa', Safad Villagers "mass murder" Israel Galili[23]
31 October 1948 Hula, Lebanon Villagers
2 November 1948 Arab al-Mawasi, Tiberias Bedouin 15 men taken to Eilabun and shot.[24]

I have left out Majd al-Krum because I can find no references and Al-Kabri because the account I have found is of exstensive demolition of buildings but not neccessarly of mass killing. I think it is well established that 'something' happened at Al-Tantura. There are also several more entries to add.Padres Hana (talk) 21:48, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

We can do that :-)
I suggest we replace the third column by one titled comments where we would give the important points concerning each case.
If there is no article in wikipédia, I would also suggest to link provide a wp:rs secondary sources.
Ceedjee (talk) 20:56, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Pov tag

Sposer,
you write the article only lists massacres "performed by zionists". What event lacks according to you ? I remind you that we only focus on the death of civils or unarmed soldiers.
Ceedjee (talk) 06:46, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

I certainly can't see any reason for the tag. Ian Pitchford (talk) 21:56, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
In fact, the "consequence section" is too small and should be expanded with at least material from Benny Morris, Ilan Pappé and Saleh Abd al-Jawad.
Ceedjee (talk) 10:31, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

No rationale reason being given, I remove the tag. Ceedjee (talk) 06:02, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

First of all, that is a bit rude (saying no rational reason). I have given reasons here and on my talk page where you told me I was just angry. This whole article is wrong-headed and out o context. I see no articles with lists of every attack by the FALN, the IRA, Al Quaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. Because it wasn't news, every Arab attack (for which many of the Jewish terrorist groups were exacting revenge) are not listed here either. I fixed the POV a little, after you stopped reverting my changes on Haganah military operation on the Semiramis Hotel. However, that really doesn't belong in there IMO as it was a military action that even Morris says probably got its targets, but unfortunately, killed civilians as well. It was not an intended massacre and it wasn't a terrorist action. The only way to remove the POV of this article, is to remove the article, or for somebody to start going through the idiocy of finding every Arab murder of Jews during the period, which wouldn't be fair to the Arabs either.Sposer (talk) 12:12, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
First of all. When I asked a reason, you never answered. But now that I removed the tag, you answer and put it back and you are wp:uncivil.
As a consequence, I remove the tag and we will put it back if 15 days if we don't find any agreement in between. If you put it back I will revert you.
The only issue for you to go faster is to ask for a WP:Third opinion.
Now, about your comments :
  • "This whole article is wrong-headed and out o context." I don't agree but what context would you add ?
  • "I see no articles with lists of". You are bad faith. This article was a pure list two months ago. You intervened and never put any tag. More, you are wrong. They are many : List of Irgun members; List of Irgun attacks. Finally, this article is not a list.
Coming with that on a talk page is a WP:POINT.
  • "However, that really doesn't belong in there IMO as it was a military action that even Morris says probably got its target". So it is just because of Semiramis that you lost your temper as you pointed out just here above. Take a break and distance with this topic. Civilians were killed, as I told you. The fact you refuse to read this and you go on is a WP:POINT. I will clarify this, as stated before.
  • "The only way to remove the POV of this article, is to remove the article". You are not happy with Semiramis and so the whole article must be deleted. You can start the process. Feel free. The topic is covered in the conclusions of Benny Morris (2008), so the case is close even before it is starting.
Ceedjee (talk) 14:40, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
My apology was for reverting when it could have been 3RR. I gave reasons why on my talk page when you asked me. I should have put it here (I did briefly explain in my edits). The context is exactly as I said above. It covers attacks that in many cases were reprisals for other Arab actions, but the Arab actions are not noted (maybe because in those days, such attacks were not notable nor were they as well organized as Irgun and Lehi were). I am not condoning the actions either (Irgun&Lehi), and it is possible that the Arab actions did not always involve civilians. The problem is that is probably almost impossible to find RS sources of Arab attacks, which makes it almost impossible for a fair and balance article. At least a list doesn't further embellish an already questionable piece. The article morphed over time from a list of Killings to this. I don't want the article removed, but I want the context added or just keep the table and remove the text.
You further prove my point about NPOV. There is a list of Irgun attacks, but none of FALN, IRA, Al Quaeda, Hezbollah, etc. As a list, the article was less heinous. I noticed the growing number of Jewish vs. non-Jewish attacks, but then as the words got twisted, and attempts to correctly quote even Morris in the case of Haganah were edited out, it was apparent that there was no desire for a balanced approach to the article. Maybe that is because you were angry with me?
As far as your point regarding civilians being killed, civilians are killed all the time in war unfortunately. The fact is that Haganah went out of its way to avoid killing civilians, while other Arab and Jewish groups may have targeted them. A massacre is a deliberate act of killing civilians, and there's no proof that Semiramis was that.
So far, one person said that he didn't see why there was a POV issue, and I say there is. You have no right to remove the tag.Sposer (talk) 17:01, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Apology for last revert

I will stay off for a day or so, as that prob puts me at 3RR. (I would have self-reverted, but it was already edited.) I will take a breather. That doesn't change the fact that what I replaced is misleading and pure POV. It doesn't make right what some of the militia did, but to imply that is how Haganah acted is an out and out fabrication. Sposer (talk) 23:18, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

I am convinced you are bad faith in that apology.
What is important is not what you write but your actions.
You behaviour with the tag, your acts, prove this.
Now, let's discuss the matter on content. Only. Ceedjee (talk) 14:41, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

First sentence

Could someone direct me to where Benny Morris 2008 (pp. 404-406) says that, "Killings and massacres during the 1948 Palestine War resulted in the death of about 1,000 civilians and unarmed soldiers"? SlimVirgin talk|contribs 06:30, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

He doesn't say that precisely word for word.
It is the addition of the number he gives :
  • roughly 800 hundreds Palestinians
  • 39 Jews at Haifa + 125 at Kfar Etzion + 79 for Hadassah convoy.
The words : "killings and massacres" and the definition with "cilivans and unarmed soliders" are from him.
Ceedjee (talk) 06:45, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
I see where he says 800 civilians and POWs (p. 406), but he cites no source. On the same page, he says no one knows how many civilians and armed irregulars were killed -- he cites one claim in the 1950s that it was 12,000. He says that 400 Arab villages were captured from April to November 1948: it's unlikely that only two civilians were killed on average in each. I wonder if we should find multiple sources for the figures. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 17:13, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
I think you mix 2 things.
  • 800 is not the number of victims. It is the number of people who were massacred. That is not at all the same. On around 20-70 villages where massacres occured, an average of 800 / 20 (or 70) = 40 (12) people massacred at each time, is more "logical".
Note also that Lydda is a city and not a village. So, these calculation you make are hasardous...
  • The 800 has no source. He is one of the first historian to have studied this issue. What would be his source. Morris just added the number of victims of each massacre. I didn't make the exercice. Another source on the topic is Saleh Abd al-Jawad. I don't know if he makes the addition.
  • Concerning the total number of Palestinian deaths, as he points out, numbers are not clear at all and there is no statisctic at all. And they will never be. The total number of death is not something that could appear from a document. That is an evaluation. Around 12,000 Palestinians.
Generally speaking, Morris is very reliable, even in his wordings to make it clear when the information is not precise.
I think the wordings : "around 1000 were massacred" in the lead fits his idea and mixing Jewish and Arab victims fits better our policy of npov. But that can be discussed.
That is excellent you have this book. I think this is currently the best one on the 1948 war. You can read Yoav Gelber critic of the book here : [1].
Ceedjee (talk) 19:37, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Hadassah Convoy

Virtually every source I have says it was an attack on unarmed doctors and nurses and virtually all use massacre. Morris in 2009 uses "slaughtered". The one Arab book I found says that they killed 100 Jews and complains that the British eventually (after hours) came to their aid, even though they didn't come to the aid of Deir Yassin. If you have sources that outright can claim it wasn't a massacre (the ICON book of quotes defines it as a massacre for writers and authors, along with Deir Yassin), you can change. I am noting that the attack was a reprisal, which, though still ghastly, explains the motivation.

"Every source I have"
Just give one. That is all that is asked you.
You know this but you prefer use wikipedia as a WP:BATTLEGROUND.
You can virtually kill me. That will not modify the history.
Ceedjee (talk) 17:35, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Undue weight

This is useless : "The massacre was said to be in retaliation for the Deir Yassin massacre perpetrated by Irgun." Who cares why it was perpetrated. This articles is not dedicated to develop each case. Readers is sent to each article if he wants to know more. Ceedjee (talk) 17:42, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

I have no problem if you remove it. I was trying to balance the item and though I do not consider revenge a valid reason for murder, highlighting why it was done (much as many of the Irgun attacks, although many were just meant to frighten the Arabs into leaving) would make you happier. Doesn't change that the attack is pretty much universally called a massacre, but at least it explains why. Sposer (talk) 19:32, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Sposer,
Excellent. Next step is that you don't only use google and read these books.
When you give references, give the page number. That is better. Particularly if you copy/paste excerpts from different pages.
Nevertheless, please, TRY TO AWAKE. When you write "I do not consider revenge a valid reason for murder". We don't care your mind. WE DON'T CARE IT. We only care information from wp:rs sources.
And we don't care I am "happy" or "happier".
The wordings used before don't change anything to what you add. The only issue it that you cannot take distance with the content of the article.
10 days ago, I corrected the issue with Hadassah on the French wikipedia. And transferring Morris's view in the controversy section, only referring to the massacre in the core of the article. That doesn't change much but that fits your claim.
I have just translated this in that article. Nevertheless, style and nuances must be brought. Reason why I added the pov tag.
I asked Nishidani to correct my mistakes.
Ceedjee (talk) 11:00, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Lots of conflicting info on the convoy, since this is the only source I've seen that doesn't says it was "unarmed" (the Nuwar book implies it since it says I think some sort of armored vehicle(s?) was destroyed). Some Morris books discuss it as a massacre, so it seems that he isn't sure how he wanted to call it. So even Morris uses that term (and he calls it a slaughter in "1948", which is no different than a massacre). The Nuwab book I referenced gives a different excuse for the Arab act too, which is that they were told there were "Jewish gangs". Also, the hospital, according to some books, treated Arabs as well. I am not arguing here, just presenting some of the conflicting info. I doubt I will edit your stuff, since you put POV on it anyway.
Your wording is a bit confusing, but I don't want to change it since my French isn't good enough (as in, I last took French 40 years ago). I think you were trying to say that the British were asked for help from the (largely or completely depending on the source) unarmed convoy, and refused to help for several hours (i.e., after the massacre was largely completed). Sposer (talk) 12:48, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
I've copyedited strictly according to the information in the book Ceedjee cites, per Ceedjee's request.Nishidani (talk) 13:12, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Thank you Nishidani for the translation.
Thanks you for the comments Sposer. But I am not sure to understand what you write. Did I write it was an "unarmed convoy" ? Maybe I don't understand you.
  • Concerning massacre/battle. Here is what Morris write in the conclusions of his book on the 1948 war :
(...) Some commentators add a third "massacre," the destruction of the convoy of doctors and nurses to Mount Scopus in Jerusalem in mid-April 1948, but this was actually a battle, involving Haganah and Palestine Arab militiamen, though it included, or was followed by, the mass killing of the occupants of a Jewish but, most of whom were unarmed medical personnel".
What I write in English to translate his view could be nuanced.
"he calls it a slaughter in "1948", which is no different than a massacre"
Could you give me the page number ? Because I have the book but don't have access to the book on google book (mystery of the copyright rules)... Thx.
Anyway, most important -I think- and that lacks now is an excellent reference (book or article written by a recent scholar, published in an Universitary Press, describing the events and referring to them as a massacre). Ceedjee (talk) 08:50, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
The Lydda entry needs to be divided into two. For Morris classifies the raid on the 11th of July by Dayan's 89th Battalion in which perhaps as many as 200 Arabs were killed, as perhaps 'a death-dispensing dash tyhrough Lydda combin(ing) elements of a battle and a massacre', since the troops machin-gunned everyone they saw (there is an extensive excerpt from a soldier telling us that this is how they operated).(Morris 426)
Later that night, the Yiftah Brigade's 3rd Battalion took up position, and the day after, 12th July, a massacre occurred or at least'dozens of unarmed detainees in one mosque compound, the Dahaimash Mosque were shot and killed' p.428
Two different companies, two different incidents.Nishidani (talk) 14:31, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Indeed. I work on that. Thank you for the information ! Ceedjee (talk) 08:50, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Article written by Abd al-Jawad

The material from this paper should be added in the article. It will take time... Ceedjee (talk) 15:49, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for drawing attention to Abd al-Jawad's work. To be honest I am not a fan of the massacre list but am more interested in the time-line. e.g. why is there a cluster 28 Oct to 1 Nov? I also suspect that individual villagers were killed in cold blood in most villages after their capture - 'pour encourage les autres'....My understanding of the Haganah and later IDF tactics is:
- softening up with mortar bombardment.
- overcome resistance (if any)
- kill 'of the men' to facilitate the departure of inhabitants
- blow up houses
- in many cases systematic leveling occured in following weeks.
In some ways the destruction of buildings is just as revealing of the underlying intent as the killing of individuals.

I think the table of killings should be about the larger events, more than ten deaths. But there are lots of questions. e.g. Do you include 'a dozen people blown up in a house'. Or the street bomb outrages? Personally I would include the al-Kabri convoy. Would it be useful to include estimates of the numbers killed in the list?
Padres Hana (talk) 18:05, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
In his article, he discusses the definition of massacres and answers some of your questions.
He also gives consequences of the massacres and explain why he sees in them a "proof" of the "ethnic cleansing of Palestine".
Ceedjee (talk) 19:04, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Too much reliance on Benny Morris and other "new historians"

I note there is an undue reliance on Benny Morris' opinions or assertions, without a real counter, the intro for example. I think there needs to be a change, or at least a more pro-Israel counterpart. The whole article is almost entirely "new historians." Efraim Karsh and others should be used more than they are if Morris is gonna get so much play.Tallicfan20 (talk) 05:16, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

If you wish to insert new material to improve the diversity of sources, by all means go ahead. But I don't see how removing sourced, relevant material that has been accepted by consensus for a long time because you happen to dislike the source is meant to improve wikipedia. Xotn (talk) 14:24, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
"accepted by consensus?" What consensus? Morris' work is highly contested and criticized except by him, other "new historians," and general supporters of Israel. He's even changed his tune from years of past. He is known to look at a few original documents, omit tons of others, distrort words and speechs, leave things out, take things out of context, but its not that he just does this, but he does it so brazenly. For example, the Hadassah massacre IS truly seen as a massacre, except by hardcore Arabists, New Historians, and Morris himself.Tallicfan20 (talk) 22:08, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
Morris refers to the attack on the Mount Scopus convoy as a "slaughter" and a "massacre" repeatedly. You seem to know very little about him other than the unreliable rants of his enemies. Zerotalk 10:53, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
Benny Morris is rightly accepted as a WP:RS and has been time and time again in Wikipedia discussions about reliable sources to use Israeli/Palestinian history, look them up. The source you are attempting to use ("Jewish Virtual Library" website) is NOT an academically accepted source amongst historians. Please read the WP:RS guidelines as to which sources are preferable. Xotn (talk) 03:52, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
When did I try to use Jewish Virtual Library as a source? Efraim Karsh is a historian who has been quoted on this site, and is a highly respected historian. he and other like-minded historians should be used more. He has criticized Morris, not Jewish Virtual Library.Tallicfan20 (talk) 04:35, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
I fully agree that there is too much reliance on Morris, who is definitely not the only historian in the field. However, this is an issue that most historians in the field care a lot less about (except fringe "historians"). I have unfortunately not been able to acquire a single materials by Karsh, so if you have his materials, please add new information! —Ynhockey (Talk) 21:26, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Both Morris and Karsh satisfy the Wikipedia criteria for a "reliable source". It doesn't matter whether we like them or not. Almost all of the above is irrelevant. Zerotalk 10:53, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

There is nobody that does not have a POV in the field. Morris is largely anti-Zionist, and it shows up in his writings. With regard to the Hadassah Massacre, he calls it a battle, but in fact the way he explains it, the only military was there to protect the doctors against attacks, while the Arab attack was with light arms (i.e., it wasn't expecting resistance). So, he decides, to support his anti-Zionist views, to call it a battle, but then fully contradicts himself, and describes nothing short of a massacre.Sposer (talk) 21:23, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Re: reliable sources, you cannot use Webster's Quotations or any other book published by Icon Group International or authored by Philip Parker; they're computer-generated, mostly using Wikipedia as a source! See Philip_M._Parker#Automatically_generated_books and Wikipedia:Mirrors_and_forks/Ghi#Icon_Group_International. Fences&Windows 20:09, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

I fixed the section. I was not aware and looked for more info on Websters earlier in the day and didn't find anything. I will take your word for it, and provided a non-POV reporting of what Morris really said in his various books. Thanks. Sposer (talk) 01:20, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

More than half of the references in this article are to Morris. That is surely something that must be improved. Debresser (talk) 16:12, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

No. What comes from Morris is not controversed. And numerous other historians from all range of point of views are quoted. They are given in the reference list. More than 12 books.
Provide wp:rs sources that say the contrary to Morris (if you can find any, which I doubt), and we can then add them.
87.65.194.230 (talk) 19:40, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
Please refrain from argument by assertation. Thank you. Debresser (talk) 22:43, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
Debresser, what are your arguments ?
This articles is based on all the books given in the "references section".
The facts many "notes" refer to Morris doesn't mean the other disagree.
You cannot put a tag meaning "I don't like this" on an article.
But you can find other sources that would claim the contrary to what is written and develop the article. You put the tag 3 months ago (because you don't like what is written) but did nothing to improve the article.
81.244.167.24 (talk) 07:22, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
Please refrain from making ascertations as to my motives. That is not useful in discussions. Debresser (talk) 12:20, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
See below for the going on of the discussion —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.200.4.11 (talk) 08:00, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Palestinian casualties

The Benny Morris cite claims "12,000" Palestinians were killed in the 1948 war. I cannot find any other historian to corroborate such findings. I do not own the book, however I've tried to find it on the google books but it doesn't list the page.

Total Arab casualties were 4,000 according to the 1948 Arab-Israeli war article. Much of the Palestinian population during the conflict and nearly all the casualties were incurred independent of the exodus (i.e, battlefields). I don't know, it just seems like a lot for one war. Wikifan12345 (talk) 06:04, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

This article covers the period of both the 1947–1948 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine and the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. The exact quote from Morris is as follows:

Palestinian losses, in civilians and armed irregulars, are unclear: they may have been slightly higher, or much higher, than the Israeli losses. In the 1950s, Haj Amin al-Husseini claimed that "about" twelve thousand Palestinians had died.

nableezy - 06:10, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
Well, this is a problem. Israel losses are ~6,400 including civilian and soldier. ~7,000 if we count the civil war that preceded 1948 war. I think it highly unlikely total Palestinian casualties were 12,000. There were less than 50,000 members of the Arab Legion and AHW, half of whom were mobalized for war, and I don't know many were from the countries of Jordan or Egypt. So 12,000 dead infers a near-massacre. Perhaps 12,000 killed/wounded. But again, this is 3x the estimated for total Arab casualties. al-Husseini isn't exactly a reliable source considering he wasn't even in Palestine during the war nor did have any direct involvement over the conflict than appointing various leaders. Also, he was with Hitler during WWII so that might affect his credibility. I've always thought more Palestinians died in the 1939 Arab revolt than in the 1948 war. Wikifan12345 (talk) 07:10, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
What is it that you want me to tell you? Benny Morris reports that number as something from Husayni, we now do the same. What is it that you want the text to say? nableezy - 07:15, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
I'm saying this isn't appropriate. Benny Morris "refers" to al-Husseini. the current math says it is highly unlikely (statistically speaking) that 12,000 Palestinians died. Heck, less than 4,000 Arabs died in the conflict. If we consider all the massacres, that's about ~800 Arabs killed (I presume Palestinians) and another couple hundred POWs executed, but even the highest range does not say 12,000 KIA. That's a bloodbath. Wikifan12345 (talk) 07:23, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
If you get a source that actually disputes this number we can use that, and I will look for other sources that give more concrete numbers, but your "current math" wont do. Right now it is attributed to al-Husayni and cite to Morris, until another source with a different number is given I dont see what else can be done to appease you. You cant just remove what a reliable source reports on the casualties. Find a better source if you think this is wrong, I'll try to do the same. nableezy - 09:14, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
Let me rephrase. This isn't my "math." Simply based on the number of combatants involved and estimated casualties involving all parties, it not humanly possible for there to be 12,000 Palestinians KIA. It is an impossible high figure not supported by the realities of this conflict clearly demonstrated by the pertinent article. This may qualify as OR (clearly you're inferring that) but it is pure logic and reason. If less than 50,000 Arab-Palestinians supposedly fought in the war, and 50% of those Palestinians were mobilized, and however many "Palestinians" were in fact Jordanians, 12,000 casualties would obviously show up by the major historians. Total Arab casualties are 4,000. So this 12,000+4,000? I know some consider massacres like Deir Yassin independent from the conflict, but even we assume all the massacre it barely adds up ~1,000, and those are the extreme estimates. Certainly if 12,000 Palestinians were killed all the major historians would have said it, no? Benny Morris merely cites al-Husseini, he doesn't pass off the estimate as part of his own independent research. If you could find another source confirming the casualties, or confirming half of the estimate it would be greatly appreciate. It seems suspect such an erroneous factoid could stay in a crucial article like this for so long. Wikifan12345 (talk) 09:21, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
I'll see what I can find, but it is not an "erroneous factoid", it was an unattributed statement that is now attributed. What the article currently says is in no way "erroneous". nableezy - 09:28, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
The attribution is not what I dispute. al-Husseini's "estimate" is not supported by independent research. Considering the Arab-Israeli war is one of the most studied conflicts in modern history, I have no doubt such a large some of casualties - 12,000 apparently - would be part of the general Palestinian narrative. That's more deaths than Black September, the Arab Revolts, and the 1st+2nd intifada combined. It would be helpful if you could find a historian or author corroborating such findings. I don't think Husseini is a reliable source. Nasser claimed Jordan committed genocide against the Palestinians in the 1970s uprising, though we know that simply isn't true. How can we be sure Husseini's claim is true if no one independent can verify? Wikifan12345 (talk) 10:34, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
We dont, thats why we say this is according to al-Husayni. I said Ill look for more sources, but the text as it stands now is fine. We have an estimate and we attribute the estimate. A verifiable statement sourced to a reliable source is what we have now; if you want to argue that Husayni is wrong then there is not a whole lot I can do for you, at least until you can give a source disputing Husayni. But the Husayni's number was important enough for Morris to cite, it is important enough for us to as well. nableezy - 10:53, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
Agree that Husayni's estimate as cited in Morris should be retained. There is room to add other estimates cited to reliable scholarly sources though. User:No More Mr Nice Guy deleted Husayni's estimate and replaced it with this one (twice now). I'm not sure that is an RS though (anyone know anything about the Dupuy Insitute or who the author is?)
In Ilan Pappe's The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine on page 72, he writes:

The Jewish forces did suffer casualties in their attempts to keep the lines open to all the isolated settlements the Zionists had planted in the heart of Palesstinian areas. By the end of January [1948], 400 Jewish settlers had died in these attacks - a high number for a community of 660,000 (but still a much lower number than the 1500 Palestinians who had so far been killed by the random bombradment and shelling of their villages and neighbourhoods).

Considering that ratio of Palestinian to Jewish dead in January 1948 according to Pappe was almost 4:1 (and we give a figure of almost 6,000 dead for Jewish casualties in this article), it doesn't seem outrageous. We should add more estimates that cover different time periods from different authors and let the readers draw their own conclusions. Tiamuttalk 10:32, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
I have no problem with showing several estimates from different authors and letting the readers draw their own conclusions. I do have a problem with the lead showing the highest number you could find, and this from an unsourced offhand comment mentioned once in Morris, which according to him was given in the 50s, that is years after the war. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 12:15, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
I've removed all mention of casualties from the lead.[2] Your accusation that I showed the highest number I could find is without basis, given that the highest estimate is 23,000 from Ernest Bevin, and I wasn't the one who added the estimate of 12,000 provided by Husayni in Morris. However, you did replace that figure with the lowest estimate I've ever seen anywhere (i.e. 3,000). So your accusation is better inverted and directed at yourself.
Per the sources I've listed below, there are a number of conflicting casualty figures. We should create a section on casualties that presents all signficiant POVs cited to reliable scholarly sources. Then we can provide a summary in the lead, citing the low and high end estimates for each. This is what was done in Gaza War. Should work fine here too. Tiamuttalk 12:49, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
The fact you weren't the one who added the 12,000 number should have been a pretty good hint that I wasn't referring to you personally in my previous comment. Nice rant though. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 12:56, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
Funny NMMNG ... if you view the comment above to be a "rant", its certainly not I who suffers from hypersensitivity, as you accused me previously. Do you have any reliable sources to add to the section below or any comments on how to arrange the casualty content to be added? Or would you prefer simply to continue making random reverts peppered with unsubstantive commentary here to log in the appearance of being engaged in a discussion when you actually have nothing of relevance to add? Tiamuttalk 13:07, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
You sound a bit agitated. I'm sorry if pointing out once again that not every comment I make is directed at you personally upset you. You can relax now. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 13:20, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
Not at all agitated, though I would note that your habit of making irrelevant commentary to keep up the appearance of being engaged in a discussion when you are in fact not, continues.
So again, do you have any sources to add to the discussion or any comments to make regrding the layout I've proposed above? If not, please don't bother responding. If so, please add them below. Tiamuttalk 13:25, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure what layout you proposed? That we create a section with all relevant sourced POVs and summarize it in the lead like we do with every other article in this encyclopedia? I support your proposition. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 13:35, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
And why did you (and unlike you I understand that when I directly reply to somebody and use the word "you" I mean you) use a source that does not give an estimate of the 1948 Palestine War? Is there a particular reason for that, or do you just enjoy adding bullshit to articles? I can guess what the answer is, but please, do tell. nableezy - 13:38, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Estimates

  • [3] (Dupuy Institute for the "1948-1949 Israeli War of Independence") 6,000 Israelis, 3,000 Palestinians, 2,000 Egyptians, 1,000 Jordanians, and 1,000 Syrians
  • Ilan Pappe (as cited above): by end of January 1948, 400 Jewish settlers and 1,500 Palestinians.
  • "Jewish losses during the 1948 war were 5,700-5,800 dead, one quarter of them civilians. Palestinian losses, according to Mohammad Amin al-Husayni, were around 12,000 dead; Egyptian losses 1,400 dead and 3,731 permanently disabled. The Jordanian, Iraqi, and Syrians suffered several hundred dead each, and the Lebanese several dozen." (per Morris,2008, as cited in the article previously - which Morris work is this though and are the Jewish and non-Palestinian Arab casualty figures supported it too?)
  • [4] "Finally, it also quoted official British figures on casualties in Palestine during the period November 30, 1947-February 1, 1948: 869 killed; including 427 Arabs, 381 Jews, 46 British, and 15 others." (Note that this source seems to contradict Pappe above and Kassim below (but perhaps Kassim's refers to total dead and wounded?) Need to look at original UN report).
  • UNSIPAL [5], citing "Official Records of the Security Council, Third Year, Special Supplement No. 2, p. 12," says: "the casualty toll in the first three months after the approval of the partition resolution was 869 dead and 1,909 injured." Seems that Kassim's figures do include wounded then. Tiamuttalk 13:21, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Anis Kassim writes that A UN report on casualties between December 1, 1947 and February 1, 1948 gives a total of 2,778: 1,462 Arabs, 1,106 Jews, 181 British.
    • The same book (The Palestine Yearbook of International Law 1989) provides figures from Simha Flapan that state: "More Israeli soldiers died while attacking than while defending, against attacks by Palestinians and Arab armies - 2400 as opposed to 1947. The number of Israelis killed within the borders of the state designated by the U.N. was 1582; the number killed in the areas outside these borders was 2759."
  • [6] "the number of Palestinian war dead was unclear" (p. 603), according to Morris in Birth, in part because of the lack of clear census data from the war years.
    • p. 35 "about 4,000 of the Yishuv's 6,000 dead were killed after the 14 May)."
    • p. 253 "Bevin 'became very worked up; he said 23000 [sic] Arabs had been killed and the situation was catastrophic.'
  • Estimate of 23,000 Arab killed provided by Bevin is also quoted here [7]: "Ernest Bevin's figure of '23000 Arabs [who] had been killed' by 22 April, quoted from Field Marshal Montgomery's Memoirs." Tiamuttalk 11:24, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Baruch Kimmerling [8] places the Jewish casulties in the 1948 war at 1% the total military and civilian population.
  • Ilan Pappe [9] in The making of the Arab-Israeli conflict, 1947-1951 on page 271 writes that: "Both the Jewish and Palestinian communities in Palestine lost 1 per cent of their population in the war of 1948." One page 272, he writes: "The equal percentage of casualties on both sides reflects the clear parity on the battlefield; a parity, as shown above, not between the Palestinians and the Jews but between the military force employed by the Arab League and that of Israel." Tiamuttalk 11:56, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
We aren't talking about Arab casualties, but Palestinian casualties (or Arabs who were residents of Palestine and fought in the Arab legion, etc). The total Arab combatants, including the Palestine forces, were ~95,000 at there peak. ~20,000 (maximum) combatants had relations with Palestine, but at best only a sizable minority were mobilized in the conflict. It is simply mathematically impossible for 12,000+ Palestinians KIA and it is questionable if 12,000 Palestinians even participated in the war. Civilian casualties were not nearly as high as Israel's, about ~800 civilians and POWs were killed by Jewish forces, and according to Benny Morris total KIA between both sides was ~20,000. The majority of Arab population in Palestinian fled before and during the war, and 70% of the refugees never saw a single Israeli soldier. The maximum Arab casualties might be 20k according to the vocal minority, but there is no way 20k Palestinians were killed over the course of the war. Wikifan12345 (talk) 21:01, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
While the figure of 12,000 is surely exaggerated, it is quite impossible that "civilian casualties were not nearly as high as Israel's", if only on the grounds that comparatively few Israeli civilians had any serious contact with Arab forces. And your claim "70% of the refugees never saw a single Israeli soldier" is I believe derived from an assertion made by Joan Peters on the basis of a (typically) false reading of her source. Leaving that aside, I'm not sure why overall casualties are relevant to this article anyway. Zerotalk 03:32, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
Nearly 3,000+ Israeli civilians were killed in the siege of jerusalem alone, which as far as I know exceeds all civilian totals recorded by the Arab armies. Like I said, the vast majority of civilian residents fled the scene, and there simply wasn't a lot to shoot at. This is not unique, civilians tend to flee in large numbers if they believe conflict is inevitable. I don't know who Joan Peters is but I say "70%" because it is a figure I've become familiar simply through studying the refugee crisis. I know for a fact most who fled never made explicit contact with the Israeli army, though not to say most were encouraged based on reports of massacres, etc. The IDF did not have the sources to march hundreds of thousands of civilians out of their homes. This is not particularly relevant to the casualties dispute, which I hope has concluded. The "12,000" figure is impossible. I don't think 12,000 Arab Palestinians even took part in the conflict. Most fought alongside the newly-independent Arab armies and their status as a combatant was not defined as unique unless they were members of Arab/Palestine legions independent of Jordan, Egypt, whatever.Wikifan12345 (talk) 07:35, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
The total Jewish civilian deaths for the whole war in all locations was less than 1500 according to Morris. Moshe Naor (Journal of Contemporary History, vol 33, 2008, 241-257) says of the whole war "1162 of the fatalities were civilians, including 362 women". So I don't believe your claim of 3000 for Jerusalem alone. The other things you say are wrong too, especially pre-May 1948. Zerotalk 09:26, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
Just a small note: information about the number of casualties in an armed conflict is an absolute must. Debresser (talk) 09:21, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
Do the numbers include those who starved during the siege of jerusalem? Of the 100,000 residents, supposedly 3,000 civilians died during the siege. You didn't respond to the remainder of post. According to Palestine facts, only 50,000 Palestinian Arabs took part in the war, and 3,000 "combatants" died. So how does 3,000 become 12,000? Wikifan12345 (talk) 11:54, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
Nobody starved in Jerusalem. There was food rationing for a while, that's all. And you should ignore PalestineFacts, it is a load of rubbish that isn't even willing to identify who is responsible for it. Zerotalk 13:30, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
Ignore? That's helpful. PalestineFacts is perfectly reliable. Like I said, how does 3,000 combatants become 12,000? You are dismissing anything that remotely contradicts the Palestinian narrative, and have no problem accepting estimates from Nazis like al-Husayni unchallenged. What are the real numbers? Wikifan12345 (talk) 23:04, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
PalestineFacts is a "false flag"-site, totally unreliable, and should be removed on sight from Wikipedia. Wikifan12345: you are not really enhancing your reputation by defending "sources" like this, to put it diplomatically. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 23:15, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
All right I didn't know. Anyways, back to the original dispute - how does 3,000 become 12,000? PalestineFacts can't be any less reliable than al-Husayni. :D Wikifan12345 (talk) 00:38, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
On this question, PalestineFacts is not less reliable than al-Husayni. However we also quote opinions/claims if they are notable, and al-Husayni's opinion is vastly more notable than PalestineFacts'. Al-Husayni was a famous person involved in the events but PalestineFacts is just some anonymous web site. However it is important to quote his opinion as his opinion, not to present it as if it is a fact from a reliable source. Concerning casualties, I said above that the 12,000 is surely an exaggeration. But one should not forget that a couple of hundred thousand Palestinians were entirely destitute, living in the open, for weeks or months before the refugee camps were set up. How many old people or young children died in such conditions is anyone's guess because nobody counted them. Zerotalk 07:01, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
That is irrelevant. We are talking about Palestinians who died in WAR. 12,000 simply isn't possible. I doubt 12,000 arabs were killed including ALL parties involved. It is important we try to get a handle in this dispute. Surely accurate data on Arab casualties exist somewhere. Wikifan12345 (talk) 08:55, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
  1. ^ Ilan Pappé, The Israel/Palestine question, Routledge, 1999 p.173. On Pappé's view see Benny Morris, Making Israel, University of Michigan Press, 2007 p.125
  2. ^ ‘Not only foreigners but also Israeli citizens and Jews in the world expect us to honour ‘purity of arms’ much more than is expected from any other army’. Moshe Dayan, cited Ze’ev Derori, Israel’s Reprisal policy, 1953-1956: the dynamics of military retaliation, Routledge, 2005 p.113
  3. ^ [www.afsa.orf/plaquelist.cfm] American Foreign Service Assosciation web site
  4. ^ The Scotsman Wednesday January 14th 1948
  5. ^ Chronology attributed to UN representative Bunchie found on web - no other references found
  6. ^ Levin, p.99
  7. ^ Levin, p.186
  8. ^ Levin, p.274
  9. ^ Shabtai Tveth 'Ben-Gurion's Spy', Columbia Univesity Press, 1996. ISBN 0-231-10464-2
  10. ^ Dov Joseph, 'The Faithful City', Simon and Schuster, New York, 1960. Library of Congress # 60-10976. p.240-41
  11. ^ Levin, p.275
  12. ^ The Scotsman
  13. ^ The Scotsman
  14. ^ See also Pauline Rose 'The Siege of Jerusalem', Patmos Publishers, London. Introduction dated June, 1949. "The dark places in Israel are being swept clean. The prison house where my friends and I had been tortured - where women had been shot without trial - is no longer a prison house".[note plural]
  15. ^ Stephen Green, 'Taking sides - America's secret relations with a militant Israel 1948/1967'. Faber and Faber, London. 1984. page 49. Quoting weekly inteligence report 87 from the Office of the Director of Intelligence (Germany), dated 10 January, 1948. Copy in publications file, Office of the Assistant Chief of Staff, G-2, Record Group 319, National Archives.
  16. ^ Harry Levin, 'Jerusalem Embattled', Cassel, London, 1997. ISBN 0 304 33765, tect copyright 1950, p.191
  17. ^ Eric Downton,The Scotsman, Monday 30th March, 1948
  18. ^ Levin's diary p.191, 21st May, refers to seeing old posters in Jerusalem announcing her (Eva Dukas) execution, these he attributes to Etzel, (Irgun).
  19. ^ All That Remains, page 465, quoting New York Times
  20. ^ All That Remains, page 456
  21. ^ All That Remains, page 80
  22. ^ All That Remains, page 491
  23. ^ All That Remains, page 497
  24. ^ All That Remains, page 546.
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