Talk:Karl Schümers

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Military history: Biography / European / German / World War II Start‑class

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Notability[edit]

Possibly does not meet WP:SOLDIER & sig RS coverage not found link. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:57, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Please, don't RIDERECT this page. This colonel commanded the massacre of 270 unarmed civilians in Greece, on Apr 1944. So according to WP:SOLDIER he did indeed "Played an important role in a significant military event such as a major battle or campaign", although not a very positive one. Sperxios (talk) 02:29, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Sperxios: I'm not seeing anything in Google books on Schümers's role in the massacre: link. If it indeed happened, I assume there would be coverage, no? I don't see a reason to keep this article for an otherwise non notable SS man. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:10, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I see your point. Then you should have first asked for citation on the original page; NOT shadow the page. There must be Greek-language sources. But in any case, to pay some respect to the living relatives of these people, please wait before doing anything more on this page. Sperxios (talk) 02:29, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@K.e.coffman: By the way, this is a google-book "Το Αίμα των Αθώων" which contains both terms: Schumers & Kleisoura, but it was in Greek "Σύμερς" & "Κλεισούρα" so maybe that is why you didn't find it.

More detailed analysis of the events, with testimonies from German soldiers and from Nuremberg trials are contained in the PHD of the author of the above book, the historian Stratos Dordanas, unfortunately also in Greek. I have taken the time to read some of it and I can tell you that in page 583 it contains Colonel's "false" testimony to his German superiors investigating the massacre, where he admits that he had ordered the attack (all German officers said the same thing), while in earlier page (566) two lower-ranked German officers give a very different description of the events (as did all of the very few survivors). It is a shame that Karl Schümers never got charged for war crimes, but not surprisingly, people still care about these unpunished crimes, 72 years ago. Sperxios (talk) 03:45, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that an article about a massacre would be more appropriate if sources exist, or perhaps creating a section within the Kleisoura article. The subject is only notable as the perpetrator of the massacre which makes it a WP:BIO1E situation. K.e.coffman (talk) 04:28, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The troopers he commanded participated in three lesser known retaliation activities in central Greece "Roumeli", one in May, Sperchiada, and two more in June, but most importantly they were involved earlier in the massacre of Distomo, the 2nd biggest atrocity in Greece, but it is under investigation whether he participated personally in the massacre this time, or his soldiers acted voluntarily. So he certainly does not fall under WP:BIO1E (unique event). Thank you for bringing these issues up. These important historical events need time to surface, and it is not surprising that 72 years later there are still new books to be written about them. Sperxios (talk) 18:25, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No problem; the article currently contains some citations so it's in an okay state now. K.e.coffman (talk) 01:37, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@K.e.coffman: FYI, eventually this specific high-ranking Nazi officer is directly or indirectly responsible for many of the atrocities in Greek soil during 1944, claiming the lives of tens of hundreds of Greek civilians in retaliation operations (guerrillas could always flee to the mountains), some of them in the article. It appears as if the retaliation massacres were a centrally-planned killing spree across Europe (see Oradour-sur-Glane_massacre, Tulle_massacre, Karlovac, etc), all around the same dates. There are many sources in Greek language that may help in the future to document his activities, but are unfortunately non-digitized . Thank you for your tipping advises! Sperxios (talk) 16:37, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Suggest offering English-language translations to the Greek sources as in: "Αθώα θύματα στο Βέρμιο: οι Πύργοι και το Μεσόβουνο στην Κατοχή (1941-1944). [English translation]". It will be helpful to readers who do not speak Greek. K.e.coffman (talk) 18:51, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]