Talk:Jigme Gyatso

A fact from Jigme Gyatso appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 1 June 2011 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that Jigme Gyatso was re-arrested after his allegations of torture by Chinese security forces were re-played on Voice of America?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2011/June.

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Restoring sourced information[edit]

I've restored some sourced information to the article that another editor deleted as "irrelevant details", such as information about the movie and details of his torture allegations. Since these are the things for which Jigme Gyatso is most famous, it seems to me that they clearly should be detailed in the article. (It's not as if this article is pressed for space.)

I've also reverted an unsourced attempt to label his film as sinophobic, which also removes any mention that the film criticizes the Chinese government. I'm glad to discuss any of this further, of course, if I've misunderstood. Cheers, -- Khazar2 (talk) 19:13, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Also, since our only source for the murder charge also states that Jigme Gyatso was framed, I've noted this in the article too. I assume that if the source is considered reliable enough for a murder accusation, it's also reliable enough for a framing accusation, but I'd welcome more eyes on this section. -- Khazar2 (talk) 20:06, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Any attempt to justify the inclusion of material that was not challenged for being "unsourced" as being "sourced" is disingenuous. I was challenging the inclusion of certain trivia. (More on that later)

It is incorrect that the description of the film is "unsourced". It is almost a direct paraphrase of what the New York Times source, cited immediately after the sentence, says: "most of his subjects spoke uncloaked and freely expressed their disdain for the Han Chinese migrants who are flooding the region and their love for the Dalai Lama... the 2008 Olympics had compelled him to record the feelings of Tibetans, many of whom were less than enthusiastic about the decision to hold the Games in Beijing". As for the anti-Han views, would you rather a wikilink to the more general "racism"? That link clearly was not intended to describe the tone of the whole film, and this is one of the many "misunderstandings" of my edit.

It is also important to note that here, the New York Times does a bit of editorialization when it asserts that Han people "are flooding the region". Not only does it dehumanize the Chinese (by likening them to a destructive force of nature), it also repeats Tibetan exile propaganda about Tibetan demography that high-quality sources, such as from demographers, consistently refute.

Here we exercise some editorial discernment in accordance with Wikipedia's policies, instead of acting like little monkeys who copy news articles and human rights reports verbatim. We know that the New York Times is a reliable source on certain immediate events which its reporters have witnessed; it can also reasonably be counted on to summarize a film. Its reporters are not, however, the best source for complex historical or demographic analysis, for which we would consult a specialist. Similarly, Phayul.com is an obviously slanted separatist news clearing house. Although it can be used with caution for its reportage of facts, such as the arrest of a man (but here I am open to argument), it has no credibility to claim, and provides no evidence to substantiate a claim, that this suspected murderer was framed.

As for the trivia: first of all, I stand by my belief that blow-by-blow reporting, such as Front Line's belief that he was in "a secret prison" before the name of Linxia prison was known to them is more suited to news reporting on the spot, and not an encyclopedia article written in retrospect, which is more of a guide to secondary sources than a repetition of them. Similarly, the graphic imagery created by Gyatso about some alleged torture scene has a certain propaganda value, but not encyclopedic value. Unless the method of alleged torture is in some way itself notable, then we don't need to include it, again because we do provide links to the sources and reports in the references section.

I don't see how "details of his torture allegations... [are one of] the things for which Jigme Gyatso is most famous". Maybe, famous on Wikipedia (because of a DYK that you yourself wrote, which comes salaciously close to asserting a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy). The source that reported on RFA's reporting, Amnesty International, did well to cite its own sources on the torture allegations, but it made no indication that RFA's reporting of his "testimony" was itself notable. As Dana Rohrabacher recently reminded us, one of RFA's goals is independence for Tibet; in other words, gruesome and inciteful propaganda from our State Department friends is to be expected. If repeated on Wikipedia, however, it is a NPOV violation. Shrigley (talk) 00:44, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

First, sincere thanks for taking a look at this one. I'm glad to have a collaborator on it, and I think you've already made some good improvements, even if we don't agree on everything yet.

I had difficulty finding any source for the murder claim beyond Phayul.com. My thinking is that if this is reliable enough source to add a murder accusation to BLP, it's reliable enough to add the much lesser accusation of a frame-up, particularly when explicitly sourced in the text. Adding the murder claim, without adding that the exact same source clearly states that it was a frame-up, seems to me a serious misrepresentation of the source. Can we find any other sources on the murder claim yet?

I agree with your prison fix, and I'm sorry that I accidentally reverted this; I was restoring the torture section, and missed the change. But I don't see the reason to delete sourced information about how the documentary was made. It's obviously one of the big events for JG, so it's not trivia to have two paragraphs of detail. For the sinophobia, I re-read the passage you flagged: you're right in your reading, and I was wrong, and I apologize for that. I'm restoring your text, but also keeping the quotation stating that the documentary was intensely critical of the government; this seems to me to be clearly an important detail. Let me know if you consider this acceptable.

As for the torture allegations, they appear to me to have been mentioned in most sources on JG since they were made, including the two you added to the article yourself as reliable sources. (Again, surely we can't say this newspaper is only a reliable source for murder accusations, but not for torture accusations; the former is far more serious.) In any case, far more has been written about the torture allegations than about the murder charges: they were discussed in the Times article and on RFA, as well as by most of the world's leading human rights organizations (Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Front Line, OMCT, etc.). If you see other facets of JG's case being discussed more widely, I'm fine with expanding those, but again I'd suggest doing it in addition to sourced text already in the article rather than deleting sourced information. Enough sources cover this to justify a paragraph, I think.

Let me know your thoughts, and thanks again. -- Khazar2 (talk) 02:08, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

After giving this some more thought, and doing another Google search for "'Jigme Gyatso' murder", I'm concerned that we can't find any sources but Phayul for the "framed for murder" allegation. Criminal charges shouldn't be added to BLPs without a reliable source, and you seem to at least have reservations about Phayul (I do, too). Erring on the side of caution, I've removed this claim for now. I'm fine with your restoring it if a clearly reliable source can be found, however. -- Khazar2 (talk) 01:42, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Error corrected[edit]

I've corrected a mistake an IP pointed out, which appears to conflate two different Jigme Gyatsos. Both were senior monks who were arrested in March 2008 and reported being tortured, causing me to believe they were the same individual. However, this appears not to have been the case. I apologize for having built the Frankenstein, and for not having run this down more thoroughly. And thanks to the user who pointed out the error. -- Khazar2 (talk) 12:57, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi!

This anonymous information appeared on Facebook and supports our readings of the developments and it also gives some additional info on Golog Jigme: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Golok-Jigme-Missing/498900003478236?fref=ts

Quote: "Golok Jigme (Jigme Gyatso) is missing again...Jigme is a monk from the Serta area of Golok in the Tibetan area of Kardze. He came to prominence in 2008 after making the documentary Jigdrel .Leaving Fear Behind.with Dhondrup Wangchen who is now serving a 6 year prison sentence. This film is an honest insight into how Tibetans feel about life under Chinese rule. http://www.filmingfortibet.org/

I had the pleasure of meeting him in my friend’s home in August of this year. He was an inspiring, strong ,funny, humble man with no hatred or anger despite all he has suffered at the hands of the police and government. Our mutual friends wanted me to meet him because for him and them it was basically a waiting game till he would next be arrested, tortured and maybe even killed .Our friends told me that they were powerless to help him in anyway and for them this was a great cause of pain. They asked me to please tell the World about Jigme ,especially if he was ever to go missing again, they said, if more people know it will be harder for the police and government to kill our friend

I will now to the best of my ability try and relay what Golok Jigme told me when I met him. We discussed his first arrest for 7 months in 2008 in a Linxia prison, close to Labrang Monastery (Ch Xiahe, Gansu).He spoke of his 4 month arrest in 2009. Since then he has repeatedly being taken to prison ,for hours, days, a weekend. .But nothing has compared to the brutal torture he experienced in 2008.I saw the torture marks on his ankles and wrists from metal pins being essentially nailed in to him. His ribs were broken from repeated beatings. For one month he was suspended upside down by his ankles and wrists, it was while in this position that the metal pins were forced in to his wrists and ankles .During this month he was never allowed to sleep, was given a stale piece of bread once a week and was once given a glass of water. The others months involved regular beatings and interrogations .When his blood covered body was released he battled to live and for month couldn't walk, only slept. Since then he has been constantly harassed, questioned, followed and instructed to leave Labrang anytime the police don't want him there eg when the Chinese Panchen Lama came in August 2011.Earlier this year he was harassed and questioned while in Xining, Qinghai meeting friends. This man has had no freedom since 2008.

Since September 20th of this year Golok Jigme is again missing. His family and friends are yet again powerless to help him and again another waiting game has begun .Is he dead? Is he being tortured as he was before? The truth is we don’t know .The only hope we have is to keep his name alive, to stop him being forgotten as he and his friends have asked us all to do. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oangbo (talk • contribs) 16:23, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your note, and again, thanks for the correction. However, I've had to remove part of your note per WP:NOTFORUM; Wikipedia talk pages are meant only for purposes of improving the articles, not for promoting a cause (even a very worthy one).

I'm also sorry to say we can't include any of the above in the article per the Wikipedia policy on [{WP:RS|reliable sources]]. What you can do, though, is keep an eye on international media and international human rights NGOs. Information they publish on JG can generally be included. -- Khazar2 (talk) 16:38, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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