Talk:James Muspratt

James Muspratt Ancestry

John Petty Muspratt (1775-1855), a Director of the East India Company from 1824 to 1853, was the only son of another James Muspratt (1743-1778) and Elizabeth Petty who married 27/11/1770. He cannot have been a brother of Evan Muspratt who was this James Muspratt's father. (Source: Muspratt Genealogy, Horace Hutchinson Muspratt, 1906) Henry Gordon Cobb (talk) 04:19, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I don't know where the offending sentence came from; it's not in the sources in the references. I have deleted it. Peter I. Vardy (talk) 08:14, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I was the one who inserted it. It took it from the following source, and I added a link to it in the Wikipedia article at the time:

Some Founders of the Chemical Industry by J. Fenwick Allen, dated 1906

It also appears in the following source, and this source was added to Wikipedia as a reference by Peter I. Vardy on 4 July 2007:

James Muspratt, by Stephen Dowd, undated.

Both of the above sources contain the exact same words: "his father was an Englishman, whose brother was a director of the East India Company". Since the latter source has an old-fashioned style but is undated, I don't know who's taking info from who.

I don't wish to traduce the name of Henry Gordon Cobb, but the above comment by him is the only thing he has written at Wikipedia, and there's no Henry Gordon Cobb present anywhere else on the internet (excluding a death notice for one in 2006). And we've no way to check that his source (Muspratt Genealogy, Horace Hutchinson Muspratt, dated 1906) exists. If the Muspratt Genealogy of 1906 is authentically exists, I would be willing to grant it's very likely correct. But right now we've just got the word of "Henry Gordon Cobb" against the word of J. Fenwick Allen.

Incidentally, I believe that the D.W.P. Hardie source (1950) is derived in part from the J. Fenwick Allen source (1906), or else derived from the same ultimate source Allen used, because some of the particular language used at Wikipedia that is sourced to Hardie is present in J. Fenwick Allen. Seanwal111111 (talk) 13:49, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

On taking a further look at the reference introduced by Peter I. Vardy on 4 July 2007, I see it is just a shortened but otherwise identical presentation of the reference introduced by me on 18 Dec 2007 (which is in two parts). It's claim to be authored by "Stephen Dowd" is totally bogus; it is authored by J. Fenwick Allen. I suggest it be deleted as a reference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Seanwal111111 (talk • contribs) 14:18, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

First an apology: I am a newcomer to Wikipedia and took the advice to keep Talk items short too literally. Cobb is not my real name, but I am a direct descendant of James Muspratt and am in touch with the current Muspratt genealogists in both the "Liverpool" and Petty branches of the family. The reference I cited is available from the LDS FamilySearch.org website (an abreviated version of the catalog entry follows). From this website you can download a PDF version of HHM's tree which includes some later additions in an unknown hand: also the Henry Muspratts shown in both the Liverpool and Petty branches are now thought to be unreliable.

Family History Library Catalog page 1 of 1 Title Muspratt genealogy, 1601-1905 compiled by Horace Hutchinson Muspratt Authors Muspratt, Horace Hutchinson (Main Author) The genealogy of the Muspratt family of Winchester, England. Thomas Muspratt (1601-1680) was Mayor of Winchester three times. He was buried in St. Thomas's Churchyard. Includes the years 1601 to 1905. Descendants were in Ireland, America, India, England and elsewhere. Call Number - Location - Status 929.242 M975m - FHL FAM HIST Book - Available Format Books/Monographs (With Film) Language English Publication London : Heraldry Today, 1905 Physical geneal. table : ill., coat of arms. Subject Class 929.242 M975 Film Notes Note - Location [Film] Also on microfilm. Salt Lake City : Filmed by the Genealogical Society of Utah, 1987. on one microfilm reel ; 35 mm. - FHL BRITISH Film [ 1441052 Item 3 ] © 2002 Intellectual Reserve, Inc. All rights reserved.

I have also looked at "Record of services of the Honourable East India Company's civil servants in the Madras presidency, from 1741 to 1858... comp. and ed. from records in the possession of the Secretary of state for India" (http://www.archive.org/details/recordofservices00prinrich). The only Muspratt who was a Director was John Petty Muspratt and the period of his directorship and year of his death both agree with those in the HHM family tree cited above. I do not know where J Fenwick Allen found the story about Evan's "brother" John: the 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica entry for James Muspratt does not repeat it. Given the social mores of the day it seems unlikely that an artisan cork cutter, as Evan reputedly was, would have a brother who was a Director of the East India Company. Henry Gordon Cobb (talk) 04:18, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Fortunately the deleted sentence is not a necessary part of the biography of this James Muspratt, so perhaps the matter can now be left as it is. I have replaced the Dowd reference by the one by J. Fenwick Allen, the obvious source of Dowd's material. Peter I. Vardy (talk) 08:34, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree the deleted sentence would be unnecessary even if it were true, and I join Peter I. Vardy in thanking Henry Gordon Cobb for taking the initiative to correct the article. I found the PDF file that Henry Gordon Cobb is referring to; it's at REF (select "Printing Version 1 MB"). It says that Evan Muspratt was a first cousin (not a brother) of James Petty Muspratt. The Wikipedia article, quoting J. Fenwick Allen, says the industrialist James Muspratt came into an inheritance sometime between 1814 and 1818, though both his parents were dead by 1811. This indicates that some in his family background were well-to-do, though not his parents apparently. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Seanwal111111 (talk • contribs) 16:54, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

No, wait, I just took the time to read J. Fenwick Allen and he says Muspratt's inheritance came from his parents but it had been tied up in litigation for years after his parents death before he actually got possession of it. Seanwal111111 (talk) 17:06, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

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