Talk:Irish

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Link clearing[edit]

Not for the Dab, but helpful for link clearing (ie the link repair) project:

--Commander Keane 10:10, 1 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Link repair[edit]

Irish may refer to:

See also[edit]

Removal of partial title matches[edit]

Ghmyrtle, please don't revert my edits across dab pages which clearly are as per WP:DAB: A disambiguation page is not a search index. Do not add a link that merely contains part of the page title, or a link that includes the page title in a longer proper name, where there is no significant risk of confusion or reference. Regards, Rob (talk) 16:51, 13 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have enough experience here to know that any Ireland-related editing issues have the possibility of becoming highly contentious. It would be much better if you were to raise your concerns here first, and see if other editors agree with you. Trust me on this one. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:53, 13 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have time for that, how about I just remove invalid entries without editing descriptions? All of the descriptions were based on the descriptions at articles so they should be contentious anyway, but if you think so... Rob (talk) 16:57, 13 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Of course you have time for it. The previous version has been sitting here for ...what, years?? There's no rush. Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:00, 13 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't care much for Irish articles since most are bias and decided by numbers, and not reason. Also you will probably have to wait years to get a response here. I doubt anyone would even have noticed my change apart from someone who monitors my contributions. Rob (talk) 17:13, 13 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Change[edit]

Any objection to changing the entry on Irish People to 'Irish people, people of Irish ethnicity, Irish citizens by Irish nationality law and Irish British citizens by British nationality law'? Currently this suggests Northern Irish people who don't accept Irish citizenship by the government of another state are not Irish People. Rob (talk) 19:06, 13 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

 Done. Rob (talk) 13:15, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What, Rob, is an "Irish British citizen" by British nationality law, I couldnt find it. Also Irish citizen, is a citizen of the state, and the law that governs it is Irish natonality law, this is the usual and correct way of phrasing this. Murry1975 (talk) 18:55, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
'Irish British citizen' refers to British citizens who have acquired British citizenship while residing in Ireland. It's simply a combination of the demonym for an person from Ireland, and 'British citizen'. Its not common to describe 'Irish people' by citizenship, but if you are going to, you can't ignore people of Northern Ireland. Since the term might be ambiguous, you could change the description to:
  • Irish people, people of Irish ethnicity, Irish citizens, and Irish British citizens who acquired citizenship in Northern Ireland
The law that allowed them to acquire citizenship isn't important, we assume the reader already knows what they are looking for on dab' pages. Rob (talk) 20:46, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've restored a previous version, which covered the point perfectly adequately and clearly, especially for a disambiguation page. The change just added unnecessary detail and confused the issue – there's no need for complicated discussions about citizenship and Irish-British issues here (for example, as noted, the phrase "Irish British citizen" is simply confusing). Those in Northern Ireland who consider themselves Irish – and not British – are covered by the existing mention of "Irish ethnicity". Equally, the alternative wording suggests all British citizens in Northern Ireland are "Irish", which many of them might well disagree with. I can't see there's a problem here that needs fixing and, in fact, the changes simply introduce confusion. N-HH talk/edits 22:41, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
So someone who moves to Northern Ireland and acquires British citizenship in Northern Ireland, isn't Irish, but someone who moves to the Republic of Ireland, and acquires Irish citizenship is? Makes sense... Rob (talk) 22:52, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As noted, this is not the page to define the topic in excessive detail. But, since you asked, and going by standard definitions: a) no, not necessarily (the latter qualification being the key point); b) yes. Makes perfect sense, actually. N-HH talk/edits 22:56, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
How not necessarily? By the current definition, how is someone who identifies themselves as Irish due to residing in Northern Ireland and acquiring British citizenship, Irish? Their not apparently. Normally I would agree that this isn't the place to define the topic, however according to Irish people, you're not Irish if you aren't native. Rob (talk) 23:53, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Some unionists very definitely deny they are "Irish"; equally, an Italian national, say, might move to Belfast, take British citizenship but not claim to be Irish. The current definition avoids necessarily including such people but also very definitely does include people in the north who do define themselves as "ethnically" Irish and/or are Irish citizens. What we have now seems to be the standard dual definition employed for "people" categories, perfectly correct even in this case and suitable as the brief description on a dab page. N-HH talk/edits 11:24, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Some people might take Irish citizenship, but not claim to be Irish. How is it standard to only cover one of the two citizenships of a "people" category? It's uncommon to have two citizenships on one island, so I don't see how you can compare it to other "people" categories. I don't see how this is not bias. Include both citizenships, or neither. Rob (talk) 11:54, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
But, as I said, it does include those British citizens that consider themselves Irish. Not only is it not necessary to suggest that all British citizens in the north are Irish it's actually misleading. I accept that someone with Irish citizenship might also not claim or be said to be "Irish-Irish" in an ethnic sense, but that problem arises in every people category (and, for what it's worth, I think the main Irish people article is too focused on "historic" ethnicity). Prima facie and as a matter of basic definition, if you're an Irish "citizen" you're an Irish "person" of some sort. That syllogism doesn't apply from "British citizen" to "Irish person", even those in Northern Ireland. N-HH talk/edits 12:13, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
How does it include them? Someone in Northern Ireland can considered themselves "Irish" without recognising their Irish citizenship. How is suggesting that all Irish citizens are Irish not as misleading? How does that not apply for British citizens who acquired citizenship in Northern Ireland? Both citizenships are citizenships acquired in Ireland, so they are both equally as Irish. I don't see the distinction you are making. Rob (talk) 14:10, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It includes them in the way that I explained in my very first post here: "Those in Northern Ireland who consider themselves Irish – and not British – are covered by the existing mention of 'Irish ethnicity'". Many of course are in any event Irish citizens, so they're covered twice over in the current formulation. As for your second broad point, all Irish citizens are indeed Irish in one sense, as I said in my reply just now. I'm afraid I simply don't understand your last two sentences or what you are trying to say with them. Anyway, as I keep saying, the current wording seems fine for a disambiguation page. The attempted changes were a solution in search of a problem and in fact just created problems of their own. Unless you're going to insist on putting them in, this conversation is probably done. N-HH talk/edits 18:40, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure if you're missing my point, or I'm missing yours. Just to clarify:
  • Someone in Northern Ireland can identify themselves as both "Irish" and "British".
  • If someone was to migrate to Northern Ireland and acquire British citizenship, it would not be unreasonable for them to identify themselves as "Irish" (possibly alongside "British" or "Northern Irish"), and not have Irish citizenship (citizenship of the Republic), nor want it.
Describing "Irish people" as "Irish citizens" without "British citizens who acquired citizenship in Northern Ireland" is like describing "European people" as "French, Spanish, Italian and German citizens" without listing all the other countries' citizenship.
If you think including "British citizens who acquired citizenship in Northern Ireland" will cause other problems, then I would be fine with not including both, as it's uncommon to list citizenships when talking about a geographic term. Rob (talk) 00:16, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't disagree with your two bullet points but – leaving aside the point that we don't need a precise or detailed explanation on this page, just a broad indication – people in the north are already included, as I keep saying, through either the Irish citizenship or the Irish ethnicity point (the latter even if they are technically British citizens). The current wording, in effect, says "citizens of the Republic and other Irish people". There simply is no exclusion of northern Irish people under the current wording, explicit or implicit. Hence there's no need to add extra wording to cover them, and risk in so doing introducing further errors or confusion. There may be other ways of quickly describing the concept of Irish people, for example as "a people associated with [the island of] Ireland", but that's another option altogether.
More generally, it's quite usual to take "XX-ish people" as meaning "citizens of the XX-ish state" and/or "people of an ethnicity that takes its name from the state", or some combined conceptual mush of the two. The point is that the former will include people who are not, technically, "ethnically XX-ish" but could still be said under a broader definition to be "XX-ish", such as recent immigrants, while the latter will include people who are "ethnically XX-ish" but not citizens of the state that bears that name, whether due to emigration or a geo-political faultline such as national partition. I know there are peculiarities in the Britain-Ireland situation, but there's generally no need to add mention of citizens of any or all those other states where XX-ish people might be found to reside. N-HH talk/edits 11:54, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, okay. Well my preference is not to include both citizenships, as it's bias including one and not the other. I understand your point on the name of the Republic being "Ireland", but I don't think that should make the state any more "Irish" then Northern Ireland. Rob (talk) 13:31, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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