Talk:Ireland at the British Empire Games

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Dubious[edit]

THe cfomments about Ireland at the games need a source, and could have been labelled as such. Could the person who said it is dubious say while he/she thinks it it dubious! Hugo999 (talk) 20:47, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is NOT a dubious statement - it is one of historic accuracy. Check out these sources:

I have also seen an illustration of the flags used at the 1930 Games and the Irish flag is clearly the Green flag (showing the harp of Leinster).CommGood (talk) 22:03, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Irish Free State in 1934?[edit]

I have found no definitive evidence that the IFS was represented in 1934. Contemporary news reports are vague about "Ireland" vs "Northern Ireland". That said, I've only checked Google news archive and Irish newspapers. Maybe someone with access to UK newspaper archives can dig something up. Some reports of the opening ceremony say there would be 16 teams, while others, and the CFG results site list only 15; maybe IFS was the sixteenth. Maybe there was no IFS delegation in the opening parade, but there were competitors; maybe the competitors thought they were representing "Ireland" rather than "Irish Free State"; maybe the IFS label was attached retrospectively. The best candidates for IFS representation are:

  • three boxers [L. Scally (flyweight), T. Byrne (bantamweight), Jack Kennedy (welterweight)] who had permission to go; I couldn't find evidence that they actually did go. If they did they must have lost in the first round, held on Weds 8 August 1934.
  • Paddy Bermingham: There is no record of his distance; maybe it's lost,or he fouled every throw; or maybe he was enrolled but never turned up; in which case, maybe the enrolment was a mistake. Did he go as an independent participant? The NACA was not attending; did the NIAAA nominate him, in which case he would be NI, not IFS? He won the AAA title that year, at the same White CityStadium the Empire Games were held in. If the AAAs were just before the Empire Games, maybe someone suggested he hang around for that too.

There seems no doubt that the AAA, who seem to have provided the Games Organising Committee, was geared for separate NI and IFS teams.

  • As regards NI, the NIAAA obliged for athletics and cycling, and the RUC for boxing.
    • Whether the IBA did so for bowls, or sent an "Ireland" team that was put in the NI pigeonhole on arrival, I don't know.
  • But as regards IFS, I don't know if any sport obliged.

jnestorius(talk) 19:39, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I do count 16 delegations in this Pathé footage of the opening ceremony (see the pan shot at 22–29 secs); which tends to support the IFS presence. jnestorius(talk) 10:46, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
...but now I see that Trinidad was missing from the 1934 list, so that makes 16 excluiding IFS. jnestorius(talk) 14:54, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Irish Independent source 2 Aug 1930?[edit]

This was an interesting reference to the GAA President's letter. I've read and reread this edition of the Irish Independent (online and in microfilm) and can't find the letter or any reference to it (in letters to editor for example). Did you mean a different paper or can you be more specific as to the page number? Historyisgood14 (talk) 11:10, 6 August 2013 (UTC) historyisgood14Historyisgood14 (talk) 11:10, 6 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I used http://www.irishnewsarchive.com, which I don't currently have access to. I might have mixed up the reference, but it's in there somewhere. There may be a match in irishnewsarchive for page 1 of that date's Kerryman. Since you've gone to the trouble to raise a question, I will recheck the references at some stage, but it might be several weeks before I can get to it. If you are able to do so in the meantime, so much the better. jnestorius(talk) 19:31, 6 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It's in the Kerryman (p1). Thank you. Still no luck with the Independent. Maybe it was the Irish News? Historyisgood14 (talk) 09:57, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No, it must have been the Kerryman. I've fixed the reference accordingly. jnestorius(talk) 21:48, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Flag[edit]

There is a discussion here (update: now archived to here) which pertains to the flag used in the top infobox. If you feel so inclined, please join in the conversation. Primefac (talk) 22:04, 12 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

comment updated by jnestorius(talk) 10:22, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Further discussion, including about this colour image, took place here (update: see below). -- Ham105 (talk) 22:25, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi VEO15 and Primefac. It should be possible to reach a consensus on this one that satisfies most concerns. I think both of you have got aspects of it right. But the way to go here is to try to represent, as best we can, the design used at the time and focus less on labelling the infobox with an official flag name. Many teams — Australia, South Africa, Scotland, and Ireland — did not use "official" national flags for the Games (and it seems England used the union flag rather than the St George cross).

In regard to the Liston & Maguire article being referenced — While I'm sure it is a worthy study of the social and political history of Ireland's participation at these games, it does not provide definitive detail of the flag that was used. I cannot access the full document myself, but if the text states "a golden harp on a blue (or possibly green) background", then it's clear that the authors have not seen the flag itself (perhaps a black and white photograph at best, and even that's doubtful if not included with the article). Not surprising given it was published in 2016. Any mention the article makes comparing the 1930 Empire Games flag to Leinster's flag or arms must be considered in this context - i.e. it's general comment about the Irish harp symbol; they don't even know what colour the games flag was.

Secondly, this colour image, from a photo collection of Hamilton, Ontario memorabilia from 1930 British Empire Games, indicates that the flag used by the Ireland team had a green background, rather than blue. The flags shown, assuming numbered 1 to 11 from left to right, are:

  • 1, 2, 4, 9, 11: Red ensigns (x5)
  • 3: Green and white field (Per fess Argent and Vert)
  • 5: Yellow field, red motif
  • 6: Union flag
  • 7: Green field, gold/yellow motif
  • 8, 10: Blue ensigns (x2)

Attempting to match these to the 11 participating teams:

  • Blue ensigns (x2):
    • British Guyana
    • New Zealand
  • Red ensigns (x5):
    • Australia: The national blue ensign was by convention reserved for government use. Organisations/private citizens used the red ensign variant.
    • South Africa: The orange, white, blue flag adopted in 1928 is not depicted - it would seem the earlier red ensign was used at these games.
    • Canada: (Maybe they used the union flag like in 1912 as per VEO15 - but I think more likely their red ensign).
    • Bermuda
    • Newfoundland
  • Britain and Ireland:
    • Wales - 3. Green and white field (red dragon not visible)
    • Scotland - 5. Yellow field, red motif (likely Royal Standard of Scotland)
    • England - 6. Union flag (the plain St George cross, commonly used in recent times, seems not to be depicted).
    • Ireland - 7. Green field, gold motif.

Comments from both editors above mention a bust in this photo - VEO15, "shows the bust on the harp"; and Primefac (albeit not conclusively) "can sort-of see the bust".

I think there is a head outlined in profile and, curving up from the back of the neck, what looks to be an angel's wing. To me it is most likely a winged-maiden variant of the harp. If the field is green rather than blue, though, using the 1542–1800 Royal Standard of Ireland doesn't fit. There are, however, other Green Flags of Ireland already in Wikipedia:

Variants of the Green Flag with winged-maiden harp.

As an aside, there is a precedenct to the Green Flag being used at athletics events: "In 1906 when Peter O'Connor won the long jump championship at the Olympic Games in Athens, he successfully objected to the raising of the union flag ... in honour of his victory and succeeded in having a green poplin harp flag, which had been provided by his thoughtful supporters, hoisted instead."Flags Of The World – Ireland: Green Flag

Using a flag along these lines would, in my view, provide the best "fit" to the information available. I propose that one of these green flags be used for the article, labelled as Ireland Green Flag,a (or similar) with details in a footnote as below. -- Ham105 (talk) 10:19, 13 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Notes:

^a The exact design of the flag used by the Ireland team at the 1930 Empire Games is uncertain. However, the flag was not the Irish tricolour, considered by unionists as specific to the Free State; instead it showed "a golden harp on a blue (or possibly green) background".[1]

A colour image, from a memorabilia collection in Hamilton shows the flags of all eleven teams at the 1930 games.[2] Seven of the flags are defaced red or blue ensigns, representing Australia, British Guyana, Bermuda, Canada, Newfoundland, New Zealand and South Africa. The other four flags represent Wales (green and white field, red dragon not visible), Scotland (yellow field with red motif, likely the Royal Standard of Scotland), England (the Union flag) and Ireland (green field with gold motif).

From a black and white photograph at the opening ceremony,[3] the team flag third from the right appears to show a maiden's head and wing above harp strings. Not all of the motif is clearly seen, but this might indicate that the Ireland team's flag featured a "winged-maiden" variant of the Irish harp.

References:

  1. ^ Liston and Maguire 2016, p. 326.
  2. ^ "Memorabilia from 1930 British Empire Games". Pinterest: Explore 1930 British, British Empire and more!. 24 May 2013. Archived from the original on 13 January 2017.
  3. ^ "Flags of competing nations ready for presentation to team managers."". Hamilton Public Library. 24 May 2013.

Sources:

I have downloaded the Liston & Maguire article and it does NOT, contain the text referred to - 'on a blue (or possibly green) background' anywhere. It does state 'In Hamilton, the Irish flag was a golden harp on a blue background, the “old Irish flag” proposed in 1928 – not the Tricolour used in prior and subsequent Olympics or the more “neutral” flag of the four provinces already adopted by the Irish Rugby Football Union and Hockey and Golfing Unions.' That, to me, is pretty definitive, and the colour should be changed to blue.213.202.161.252 (talk) 04:51, 12 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Please see pages 326–327 of Diplomacy & Statecraft, Volume 27, 2016 - Issue 2, as archived here on 2016-06-11 which contradicts your statement. For avoidance of doubt, as per this screenshot, the text reads:

In Hamilton, the Irish flag was a golden harp on a blue (or possibly green) background, the “old Irish flag” proposed in 1928—not the Tricolour used in prior and subsequent Olympics or the more “neutral” flag of the four provinces already adopted by the Irish Rugby Football Union and Hockey and Golfing Unions.

It is clear that Liston & Maguire did not know the colour of the flag used in Hamilton from their article as published in 2016. Moreover, memorabilia from 1930 British Empire Games includes a colour image of a green flag with gold/yellow motif, as mentioned in my comment above. -- Ham105 (talk) 06:29, 12 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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