Talk:Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny

Semi-protected edit request on 15 July 2023

In the plot description, change "He gives Jones the Dial but, fascinated with the watch, keeps it." to: "He gives Jones the Dial and the watch." 78.185.14.236 (talk) 05:27, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Archimedes not only kept the watch, but he wore it to the grave. Any proof otherwise?$chnauzer 05:40, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 July 2023 (2)

Can you please add the following under cast:

The Apollo 11 astronauts were played by Bryn Thomas (Buzz Aldrin), Jefferson King (Neil Armstrong) and Luke Cloud (Michael Collins). Source collectspace.com and indianajones.fandom.com Lasthattrick (talk) 08:52, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi, is there an alternative for the second source you mentioned there as Fandoms are written by users and not considered reliable sources (see WP:RS)? Also is the first source there a primary or secondary source? Galaxy111 (talk) 10:33, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 10:58, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Possible spelling/grammar mistake?

In the Themes and Influences section, a line reads ″Mangold compared Dial of Destiny to his finale X-Men film Logan" Should that not read ″Mangold compared Dial of Destiny to his final X-Men film Logan″? To be fair I'm not 100% sure myself!

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?action=edit&create=Create+edit+request&editintro=Wikipedia%3AEdit+Request+Wizard%2FProtected%2FEditnotice&preload=Wikipedia%3AEdit+Request+Wizard%2FProtected%2FPreload&section=new&title=talk%3AIndiana+Jones+and+the+Dial+of+Destiny Jucy7683 (talk) 09:47, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

References

 Not done for now: In my opinion, finale is the correct word. Any editor that feel otherwise is free to overwrite without consult. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 14:23, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 August 2023

71.94.28.77 (talk) 14:13, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Can you edit paramount pictures on there they produced it

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Betty Logan (talk) 15:09, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Summer Flops

Should we make an article detailing on the many summer 2023 bombs and showing the ones less affected like elemental and the ones hit hard like this movie. Im putting this here because this one bombed more than the others Refsrdr (talk) 09:44, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

It defepends, what sources do you have in mind? Dimadick (talk) 10:07, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Every summer has a few flops. Apart from The Flash (which had serious off-screen problems) and Indy 5, there hasn't really been any other huge flops. Rise of Beasts just continued the downward trajectory of a tired franchise, Fast X did around as much as Fast 9, and Elemental is Pixar's best performing non-sequel since Coco. Mission Impossible is under-performing too, but that is mostly explained in the collapse of the Chinese market. I think this probably falls into the categories of WP:RECENTISM and WP:NOTNEWS. Betty Logan (talk) 18:23, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

O ok Refsrdr (talk) 00:32, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Needless removal of harmless, interesting plot details after a month

As per Sjones23's suggestion, am discussing this on the Talk page. ...Back on July 15, viewable at link https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Indiana_Jones_and_the_Dial_of_Destiny&oldid=1165515383, I added/restored and/or approved someone else's addition and/or restoration/alteration in the Plot section,

1. "into a parade celebrating the Apollo 11 moon landing, then an anti-war protest, and through the New York City Subway." This was my restoration. I would have preferred to add the words "on horseback" before "through the"..., which would've been only 2 words, but added color to the Plot.

Quoting some recent comments of mine, "If it was such terrible 'fluff', there were plenty of chances to remove it before now. ...Apollo 11 is important because it ties into Voller's NASA job; the protests are important because Mutt died in Vietnam; the subway is colorful (I'd like to mention the horse, too); and people can reconcile hesitantly, or... romantically."

2. "romantically reconcile." Somebody put "romantically" rather than "affectionately", the latter maybe being my invention, but as I said at the link supra, "romantically" may be even better.

These lasted for a month (or more, for #2), then recently disappeared. I don't see this as good practice, in that:

A. They are perfectly harmless, and even beneficial, parts of the Plot. The 700-word limit is not near being reached, and lest we forget, the default on Wikipedia is that even if something is not brilliant or absolutely necessary, it's usually to be accepted if harmless. (I hope I don't need to cite sources for this; if it's not true, then things degenerate into a war of Madame (or Mr.) Defarges looking for any excuse to cut someone else's work, just because of the cutter's personal taste.) -- Indeed, "personal taste" is a lot of it. Sallah being a cab driver, isn't "strictly necessary" for us to know, but I don't think it should be cut. The gang using a "tuk-tuk" vehicle during a chase, isn't "strictly necessary" to know, either, but it, too, needn't be cut. Thus, when a lot of stuff is really personal taste, maybe we shouldn't be too quick to cut other people's stuff. The more contributions from diverse people, the better.

B. The words in question lasted for a month or more, I think, from July 15 (unless someone cut them out and restored them, and I didn't notice?). If there were plenty of opportunities to cut them out, and that didn't happen, it looks a little odd for someone to cut them out after all that time. On Wikipedia, there could even be people (hypothetically) who wait until they think no one is looking, and then surreptitiously cut out stuff they don't like. (Not that this happened in this case; just talking theoretically.) -- But Wikipedia is collaborative, not just at the mercy of one person who doesn't like your stuff.

That's it for now. Even to have to argue over it is time-consuming, but better that than just letting people cut out long-existing, harmless or beneficial details without some colossally important reason, which of course does not exist here. (If there were, then the language in question should've been cut out around July 15, not August 15.) Thanks. (And if someone wants to add the words "on horseback", that would probably be a good idea. I wouldn't mind a brief mention of Agent Mason, either, a woman of color who could use some acknowledgment in the Plot section...) John315 (talk) 02:30, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

I have been editing the Dial of Destiny plot summary since the movie debuted. I would have made the most recent changes sooner, but I have been away, so that is why a month lapsed. There has been considerable differences of opinions about what should and should not be in the plot summary. Movie summaries are supposed to be a BRIEF overview of the plot and written in a simple encyclopedic style. Too many novice editors want to completely retell the entire movie as if they are writing a novel and include every scene, describe and embellish details and add every minor/insignificant character until it becomes a bloated mess. Tying the Viet Nam protest march to Mutt's death and Indy's depression was redundant, as that was already established. Saying the Apollo parade was important because it was tied to Voller's work was weak and not needed. Nor was describing Indy riding that horse through the subway, which was "fluff." Just let moments like that be enjoyed by the audience. And just because the plot limit is 700 words, doesn't mean it has to reach the maximum length. Some editors become overly attached to certain scenes and jam them in, giving them unequal importance, without enhancing the overall article quality. One editor wanted to include the most insignificant characters simply because they were POC and to "honor" them in some way. That is inappropriate and patronizing. PNW Raven (talk) 01:35, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

I appreciate that you have an opinion (and I too have been editing this article for a while), but I have to repeat that, e.g., if Sallah's being a cab driver is included, it is hard to argue that anything else is less relevant than that. We know about Mutt's death in Vietnam, but that doesn't mean that the war protest is "repetitive" or "irrelevant", I believe, just because it's resonant with Mutt's death. Also, ignoring the Apollo thing entirely seems a little bizarre: why did the filmmaker put it there? It adds context that the events happen during the moon shot. Too, I don't see it as "patronizing" to include people of color, and Agent Mason is not an insignificant character. Finally, to take the time to cut out the word "romantically"... if it were a racial or sexual slur, that would be one thing, but be so troubled by it as to remove it repeatedly, seems a little unusual. ...Hopefully, you will be convinced, but we'll see what happens. I think I can guess. Fortunately, I also have some free speech rights, like every editor here. John315 (talk) 05:36, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Let me say that deleting the word "romantically" had nothing to do with it being a "racial" or "sexual" slur. And I have no idea how you leaped to that conclusion. I also repeatedly removed it. This is about following the rules of good writing. One rule is "always use as few words as possible." To quote Mark Twain, "If you catch an adjective, kill it." If something can be said with two words instead of three, then go with two. Adding "romantically" was a superfluous word and just adds "dead weight". Also, Agent Mason was not significant enough to mention by name, nor was Sallah's nameless grandchildren who had no dialogue whatsoever and were merely background characters, yet an editor in an earlier version repeatedly insisted on mentioning them as an "honor" to their color. Singling them out because they are people of color, was indeed patronizing. I agree it is unnecessary to mention that Sallah is a taxi driver and will delete that. As I mentioned, we are not here to retell the entire movie plot or be a substitute for seeing the film, but to give a BRIEF overview of the story, written in a neutral, encyclopedic style. PNW Raven (talk) 10:17, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Huh? I wouldn't cut out the taxi driver if I were you; I was trying to make a point. ...I wasn't saying "romantically" was a slur, I was saying that if it were, there might be a point to removing it, otherwise, it's arguably obsessive to try to remove it after all the time it remained there. (Future historians reading this Talk thread itself, might wonder if people had lost their minds, arguing/debating so long about a few words.) The grandkids may not be important, but Agent Mason was a driver of the story, with multiple appearances and speaking parts; thus, it might be especially important not to omit her as a woman of color. ...Brevity can be good, but the 700-word limit already imposes that on us. Anyway, we have discussed; since neither one of us is the owner of this article, while I may make some additions/restorations to the article, I might do fewer than I want to. On the other side of the coin, people need not feel obliged to revert all my changes. Have a pleasant weekend. John315 (talk) 10:45, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Whoops, while I was writing that, it seems... you got rid of the cab driver. Who knows, it might be restored. Or not. Anyway. John315 (talk) 10:48, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

If you will leave the section about the parade and the protest march as it is now, I'll accept that. I'm fine with mentioning that Sallah drives a taxi, though I reworded it a bit to flow better. Also, I repeatedly removed "romantically" from the reconciling phrase, but it, or other similar words kept being restored. It wasn't just wordy, but came across as corny sentiment.PNW Raven (talk) 12:27, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Sounds good. "Taxi driver"... Sallah almost sounds like Travis Bickle! (heh heh) ...If you don't like "romantically", I think my changing "reconcile" to "reunite" may have covered some of the distance. Thanks. Be well. John315 (talk) 18:39, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Hmmm . . . I changed it to "cab driver" just to avoid any comparison, but yes, it does rather evoke Travis Bickle. "Reunite" actually works better. PNW Raven (talk) 03:35, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

"Jonathan Kasdan replaced Koepp and eventually left the project"

Did Kasdan really leave the project? Koepp did, but surely he didn't hang around idly after having been replaced, gradually realizing how boring that is and eventually leaving. Anyway, the sentence's grammar isn't open to such an interpretation. 2003:DE:2F45:6894:E9E1:11D:3FFE:4ADE (talk) 19:46, 25 April 2024 (UTC)