Talk:Incense in India

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Pubg[edit]

It is A game 139.5.254.213 (talk) 15:57, 14 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Moved Perfume games, Lost texts and Texts on incense sections from article[edit]

The following section contains interesting information about perfume in India, though I'm unclear on its relation to incense. Incense does use perfume, and some general information on how perfume is used in incense would be very valuable, but this text doesn't show how perfume games are related to incense. Moving here as the information bay be useful in other articles (Perfume in India perhaps?), or may be worked into this article in a revised form. SilkTork (talk) 10:40, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also moved Lost texts section for the same reason as above. It deals just with perfume, not with incense. SilkTork (talk) 10:43, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Added Texts on incense; there are some references to incense in this section, so it may prove more useful than the previous two, however, content would need to be worked meaningfully into the article. SilkTork (talk) 11:18, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Perfume games[edit]

The ''[[Kamasutra]]'' lists ''Gandhayukti'' ("Perfume blending") as one of 64 arts to be learned by a person. Chapter titled ''"Nagarakavrtti"'' (‘The Avocation of the Nagaraka’) also describes [[dinacharya]] ("daily-routine") of bathing, cosmetics and use of perfumery and incense for various needs.<ref>{{cite book |last1=Kaul |first1=Shonaleeka |title=Cultural History of Early South Asia: A Reader |date=2014 |publisher=Orient Blackswan |isbn=978-81-250-5359-0 |page=255 |language=en}}</ref> Other [[Kamashastra#List of Kamashastra works|Kama]]-related texts like ''Nagarasarvasva'' ("the Complete Man-About-Town") by Padmasri also describes Gandhaykuti in vastly more detailed manner. In erotic texts and in the surviving complex perfumery texts, perfumery and making perfumes is seen as sensuous and erudite pleasure, almost a high-class game with poetic riddles and puns. Perfumes were seen as indispensable to the goal of pleasure (kama), and the informated consumption of them was a vital part of what it meant to be a cultivated person.<ref>{{cite book |last1=McHugh |first1=James |title=Sandalwood and Carrion: Smell in Indian Religion and Culture |date=29 November 2012 |publisher=OUP USA |isbn=9780199916320 |page=107 |url=https://academic.oup.com/book/3182 |access-date=29 November 2012}}</ref> Padmasri mentions unknown perfumery text by the author named Lokesvara, it is one of several lost perfumery texts.<ref>{{cite book |title=Papers of the 13th World Sanskrit Conference: Edinburg, Scotland (UK), 10 - 14 July 2006 |date=2011 |publisher=Motilal Banarsidass |location=Delhi |isbn=978-81-208-3529-0 |page=211}}</ref> {{blockquote|''"Various artful perfumes are celebrated as eminent inflamers of lust. The best lovers should be carefully instructed at the start from perfume texts. Having collected the essential part of the perfume texts, which are difficult to understand for those who are not cleaver, [and] which are by Lokesvara etc. I set.."''}} ''[[Bṛhat Saṃhitā]]'' by Varahamihira has a chapter dedicated to ''Gandhayukti'' ("Perfume blending"), here Varahamihira provides several formulas with grid patterns, on which perfume ingredients were placed where numerous combinations of perfumes can be made. This mathematical exercises in perfumery may have been a source of intellectual delight for the educated connoisseur of perfume. Surviving perfumery texts additionally contained sophisticated verbal puzzles that seem designed to entertain and impress the cultivated makers and users of perfumes. Therefore, art of perfumery was not entirely olfactory but also included the cleaver delights of combinatorics and word games.<ref name="academic.oup.com"/> Solving poetic perfume riddles and complex puns of erotic nature, political science, religion etc to make perfume blends were part of perfume making art for the cultivated person.<ref>{{cite book |last1=McHugh |first1=James |title=Sandalwood and Carrion: Smell in Indian Religion and Culture |date=29 November 2012 |publisher=OUP USA |isbn=9780199916320 |pages=121–126 |url=https://academic.oup.com/book/3182 |access-date=29 November 2012}}</ref>

Lost texts[edit]

According to historian John McHugh, the earliest surviving texts to treat art of perfumery as main topic of the text in any detail appeared ''"around the middle of the first millennium CE"'' and in these texts ''"perfumery is discussed in context of matters of the body and the bedroom"'' and that by around the turn of the ''"first millennium CE, we have evidence of texts devoted entirely to the art of perfumery"''.<ref name="Sandalwood and Carrion: Smell in In">{{cite book |last1=McHugh |first1=James |title=Sandalwood and Carrion: Smell in Indian Religion and Culture |date=29 November 2012 |publisher=OUP USA |isbn=9780199916320 |page=133 |url=https://academic.oup.com/book/3182 |access-date=29 November 2012}}</ref> Many texts solely dedicated to perfumery are lost, they exist in fragments in other texts where the authors give credit to these texts for recipes.<ref name="Sandalwood and Carrion: Smell in In"/> Only three texts survive, these include two texts named Gandhasara; Gandhasara by Gangadhara and Gandhasara by unknown author, and third text named Gandhavada. Mchung notes that the earliest layer of ''"Gandhasara, the Essence of Perfume, dating most likely from the early- to mid-second millenium CE"'' with later additions by several authors up to 13th century.<ref>{{cite book |last1=McHugh |first1=James |title=Sandalwood and Carrion: Smell in Indian Religion and Culture |date=29 November 2012 |publisher=OUP USA |isbn=9780199916320 |page=128 |url=https://academic.oup.com/book/3182 |access-date=29 November 2012}}</ref> Some of the notable lost perfumery texts include ''Gandhayukti'' by ''Isvara'' 10th century, ''Gandhasastra'' by ''Bhavadeva'' 10th century, ''Gandhatantra'' by anonymous author 12th century, Unknown title by ''Prthvisimha'' 12th century, Gandhasara by Gangadhara 13th century, Gandhasara by unknown author 14th century, Gandhavada by anonymous author 13th century, ''Parimalapradipa'' by unknown author 16th century, ''Gandhaparadipaptrika'' by unknown author 16th century.<ref>{{cite book |last1=McHugh |first1=James |title=Sandalwood and Carrion: Smell in Indian Religion and Culture |date=29 November 2012 |publisher=OUP USA |isbn=9780199916320 |pages=249–253 |url=https://academic.oup.com/book/3182 |access-date=29 November 2012}}</ref>

Texts on incense[edit]

While the earliest texts that mention aromatic preparations in any detail appear to be religious and medical texts; some of which had chapters dedicated to incense; it is only later during the first millennium CE is when evidence of texts devoted entirely to ''"Gandhayukti"'' the art of perfumery emerge for diverse use. According to James Mchugh from ''"approximately the late centuries of the first millennium CE onwards do we see significant materials on perfumery incorporated into texts on erotics and courtly life."''<ref>{{cite book |last1=McHugh |first1=James |title=Sandalwood and Carrion: Smell in Indian Religion and Culture |date=29 November 2012 |publisher=OUP USA |isbn=9780199916320 |page=103 |url=https://academic.oup.com/book/3182 |access-date=29 November 2012}}</ref> These texts are not just limited to incense making, but the topic of "''Gandhayukti"'' covers diverse products related to perfumery and cosmetics of various kinds; ''Curna'' (perfume powders), ''Vilepana'' and ''Anulepana'' (fragrant sandal unguent, applied to the body and left on to render its fragrance), ''Udvartana'' and ''Sananiya'' (fragrant bathing exfoliants), ''Dhupavarti'' (incense sticks, early form which lacks bamboo-core), ''Dipavarti'' (perfumed powder rolled inside cotton lamp-wicks), ''Vasana'' (perfumed oils), among others.<ref name="OUP USA"/> A chapter in ancient [[Bṛhat Saṃhitā]] is dedicated to ''Gandhayukti'' ("Perfume blending"), here Varahamihira provides several perfume formulas, one of them known as ''Gandharnaava'' ("Ocean of perfumes") is a unique perfume formula, in which from a given number of ingredients placed in a grid, numerous combinations can be made, leading in some cases to a vast number of potential perfumes. He provides a complex algorithm for calculating how many perfumes one can make from a given number of ingredients, in one case up to 43,680 perfumes can be made.<ref>Brihat Samhita by N. Chidambaram Iyer (1884), page 139-150, Chapter 77 - Preparation of Perfumes (Gandhayukti)</ref><ref name="academic.oup.com">{{cite book |last1=McHugh |first1=James |title=Sandalwood and Carrion: Smell in Indian Religion and Culture |date=29 November 2012 |publisher=OUP USA |isbn=9780199916320 |page=109 |url=https://academic.oup.com/book/3182 |access-date=29 November 2012}}</ref> {{blockquote|''"The Gandharnaava (Ocean of perfumes) is prepared from the following sixteen substances, if every four of them are permuted variously at will and that in one, two or four parts. The substances are Uŝira, Aguru, Vālaka, Madanfal, Karpûra, Dhānya, Nāgapuşpa, Tagara, Saibya, Spŗkkā, Ghana, Karcûra, Vyāghranakha, Nakha, Coraka, Chandana. The total number of perfumes resulting from the sixteen ingredients being mixed in all possible combinations is 43,680″''}} The ''Lokopakara'' ("for the benefit of the people") text has a chapter dedicated to incense recipes for various needs, below are few examples;<ref>'Lokopakara (For the Benefit of People) - An Ancient Text on Indian Agriculture' page 89 Valmiki Sreenivasa Ayangarya (2006), Asian Agri-history foundation</ref> {{blockquote|''"Divine perfume; Prepare a mixture of the powders of [[sandalwood]], bharudi leaves, male flowers of [[Pandanus odorifer|screw-pine]], unrefined [[sugar]], [[Agarwood|agar]], and [[Dolomiaea costus|costus roots]] taken in equal proportion. Add [[jaggery]]...to this final mixture and prepare oblong tables. This is called 'divine incense' and is amiable to all gods."''}} {{blockquote|''"Incense for dissipation of bugs and other insects; the mixture of the powders of sandalwood, vidanga seeds, flowers of arjun trees, along with jaggery...and honey dissipates flies, gnats and bugs from the house when fumigated with it."''}} In the text ''[[Sharngadhara-paddhati]]'' ("Sharngadhara's Guidebook"),<ref>'Śārṅgadhar-saṃhitā: a treatise of Āyurveda by Śārṅgadhara' page 234, K. R. Srikantamurthy (1984), Chaukhambha Orientalia</ref> a chapter is dedicated to ''Jalavasa'' (perfumed waters), ''Mukhavasa'' (mouth freshener), ''Angavasa'' (cloth perfume) and ''Dhupa'' (incense), below are some examples; {{blockquote|''"A person should fumigate both clothes & home with the incense of Camphor, Nakha, Giri, Kasturi, Jatamasami, Jatu in equal quantity with [[sandalwood]] & [[agarwood|aloewood]] in two units mixed with molasses"''}} {{blockquote|''"An incense stick which is suitable for kings can be prepared from the mixture of Nakha, Aguru, Sihlaka, Valaka, Kunduru, Saileya, Candana, Syama by taking each in progressive proportion"''}} {{blockquote|''"An incense stick made from the compound of Marjari, Himavaluka, Pisunaka, Gorocana, Sihlaka, Karpura, pounded in water, in progressive proportion, mixed with ghee and sugar, this is known as Manmathavarti"''}} The ''Haramekhala'' ("the Girdle of Hara") text describes preparations of the following aromatics for ''[[dinacharya]]'' ("daily-routine"), the fifth chapter is summarized by the author of the text in the following passage:<ref name="OUP USA"/> {{blockquote|''"This collection of the applications of the fifth [chapter] is composed. There [is found] the preparation of water fragrance, as well as preparation of tooth sticks/brush. The preparation of [[beeswax]] [for the lips], as well as collyrium to decorate the eyes. Mouth fragrances, etc., oils, as well as the preparation of rubbing unguents. Then [there are] the practice of bathing, bathing materials, and the bath accessory materials. Fragrant clothes powders, [incense] sticks/wicks, and the preparation of perfumes, etc. The artificial manufacture of [[musk]] and the method of the extraction of various perfumes."}} The chapter on perfumery in the text ''Nagarasarvasva'' ("the Complete Man-About-Town") by Padmasri has some similarities to the ''Haramekhala'' in how it is organized, consisting of a number of aromatic formulae respectively for hair (kesapatavasa), dwelling (grhavasa), mouth (mukhavasa), water (jalavasa), betel-nut (pugaphalam), bathing powder (snaniya).<ref name="OUP USA"/> Perfume names in medieval period are also information on the aspirations expressed through aromatic culture that presents perfume formulae in a playful and literary manner; ''Dakshinapavana'' ("Southern Wind"), ''Chandrarasa'' ("Moon Juice"), ''Kandarpadarpa'' ("Pride of Kama"), ''Kogacchati?'' ("Who Goes There?"), ''Kolahala'' ("Uproar" or "Fracas"), ''Champakamoda'' ("with the perfume of champaka flowers").<ref>{{cite book |last1=McHugh |first1=James |title=Sandalwood and Carrion: Smell in Indian Religion and Culture |date=29 November 2012 |publisher=OUP USA |isbn=9780199916320 |page=129 |url=https://academic.oup.com/book/3182 |access-date=29 November 2012}}</ref> {{blockquote|''"When a person who has censed entire body [with this], is walked it is said by people "Who goes there?" therefore this incense is called "Who Goes There?" (Kogacchati)"''}}

Images[edit]

Example - Here in offering plate you will see Incense stick and Gandha (sandalwood paste).
"Dhupdaan", Bronze, 10th century, India. - This thing you removed is incense burner, it is from Nalanda mahavihara which was ancient university. In this Indian museum website it is dated to 700-778 century.<ref>{{cite web |url=https://vmis.in/ArchiveCategories/collection_gallery_zoom?id=67&search=1&index=172827}}</ref>
Tradtional method of extracting wood paste from sandalwood etc in India.
This image you included is from Sri Lanka (Jaffna) according to the author, not India.
This image you included is Japanese incense ingredients (Makko), not India.

Discussion[edit]

  • @SilkTork: - Hello. "Perfume" aka Gandha = Incense paste in traditional concept. Ancient texts on incense are labeled/titled as Gandhayukti or Gandhavada. Therefore are synonymous with incense topic. These texts covers topics related to incense making, therefore removing them does not make sense as they are related and informative. Please take note of the sources, including McHugh James.
  • You must be confusing "Perfume" with distilled liquid in western sense. This arrived to India during Islamic period called attar. It is unrelated to Hindu/Buddhist Gandha/Dhupa tradition. I hope this helps.117.198.112.115 (talk) 16:29, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also, "Games" here are combinatorics and incense riddles/word games/puzzles from incense texts which historian McHugh addresses and it is cited. These riddles in texts need to be solved to identify the ingredients needed to make incense. Such games by those learned in arts would have taken place at "goṣṭhi" gatherings also described in Kama Sutra text, which is also noted by McHugh.<ref>{{cite book |last1=McHugh |first1=James |title=Sandalwood and Carrion: Smell in Indian Religion and Culture |date=29 November 2012 |publisher=OUP USA |isbn=9780199916320 |page=121–126|url=https://academic.oup.com/book/3182 |access-date=29 November 2012}}</ref>|access-date=29 November 2012 Would perfume riddles be better title here? I did not choose 'perfume riddles' as title because McHugh also cites Brihat Samhita by Varahamihira's use of "mathematical grid-pattern combinatorics" for making perfumes as being source of intellectual delight for those learned in arts. He does mention these form of entertainment as games at these gatherings, therefore i went with that. 117.198.112.115 (talk) 03:46, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Problems in lead summery : - In lead summery, there was non-scholarship sources on incense with claims of "traditionally would be a masala (powder of ground ingredients)"- there is no such thing as "Masala" incense in medieval or in ancient texts. These are recent modern commercial innovations since the 1980s and certainly not the norm. Please refer to scholarship sources on this. It is fine to add that under 'Modern production types' which includes 'masala incense' or 'rose incense' but this is still not the norm or traditional. The lead can be simplified where we can add actual traditional ingredients like Halmaddi and Nag champa (which often uses traditional "Champaka" flowers). However, the current basic summery addresses topics of cottage industry in India, importance in religion, explains two common incense types - the incense making with a bamboo stick, and rolled, extruded or shaped method dhoop. While modern production section addresses the rest. This is simple and cleaner lead in my view.117.198.112.115 (talk) 00:14, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

P.S You have also unknowingly (?) added term "joss sticks" here but it's not known as joss sticks in India, but in other parts of Asia. This term is not in use in India.117.198.112.115 (talk) 23:39, 4 October 2023 (UTC) Cite error: There are <ref> tags on this page without content in them (see the help page).[reply]

Very useful. I think we can work together to improve this article as you have much academic and local knowledge, and I have experience of writing Wikipedia articles, and some interest in and vague knowledge of Indian incense. Would you consider creating an account to make communication and attribution easier? This would also protect you, as an account is completely anonymous, and comes with certain editing benefits. Your IP is dynamic, so changes, meaning you don't have a stable userpage, and other people may get assigned the same IP address as you, and make bad edits, which could cause you problems, even though it's not your fault. Also, you are revealing details about yourself by not creating an account. Wikipedia is the only website which reveals people's IP address - other websites conceal this information as it tells little facts about you, which you might not wish to reveal, such as your location and internet provider (BSNL). It is also possible for hackers to use your IP address information against you and gain access to your PC - though as your IP address is dynamic (keeps changing) this is less likely. However, to be safer, more anonymous, gain more benefits, and be more community orientated (helping others to communicate with you easier), creating an account is a good idea. SilkTork (talk) 10:46, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • @SilkTork: Hello. Thank you for your advise, i have made one. I shall help with whatever it is needed to improve this article further. I think the "Uses" section needs to be removed since other sections describes various ways incense were used for both religious and secular uses. This section is also sourced from a website that reads like a blogpost rather than scholarship opinion. Additionally, when it comes to social gatherings and games there is lengthy topic about this from the book "Ancient India: New Research. Upinder Singh and Nayanjot Lahiri, 2009"<ref>{{cite book |last1=Lahiri |first1=Nayanjot |last2=Singh |first2=Upinder |title=Ancient India: new research |date=2009 |publisher=Oxford Univ. Press |location=Oxford |isbn=9780198060284 |page= |pages=252-279 |edition=1. publ |url=https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-asian-studies/article/abs/ancient-india-new-research-edited-by-upinder-singh-and-nayanjot-lahiri-new-delhi-oxford-university-press-2009-320-pp-2295-paper/DD47E3A07133987F201569045643F07E}}</ref>[1] it covers considerable information on such gatherings from pages 252-279. In addition, "Imagining the Urban: Sanskrit and the City in Early India By Shonaleeka Kaul (2011)" is also good source on this topic.<ref>{{cite book |last1=Kaul |first1=Shonaleeka |title=Imagining the urban: Sanskrit and the city in early India |date=2011 |publisher=Seagull books |location=London New York |isbn=9781906497811 |pages=278 |url=https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/distributed/I/bo11457529.html}}</ref>[2]Vinai90 (talk) 18:29, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • An important section that needs to be included : - It is one about Yaksha (nature deities) and their relationship with incense (Yakṣakardama aka "Yaksha mud", Yakṣakardama-dhūpa and "Catuḥsama" formulas), as many recipes from ancient and medieval period are named after them and in some texts they are seen as patron deity of incense making.Vinai90 (talk) 18:44, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • McHugh notes that "We possess a number of formulae for Yaksa Mud, whose name refers to the type of supernatural beings called yaksas—for whom this perfume is evidently like mud."..."The formula is provided in several texts: including the extremely popular lexicon, the Namalinganusasana of Amarasimha (Amarakoéa), and also the later Jaina Abhidhanacintamani of Hemacandra. A formula is also found in the large Dharmasastra compendium, the Caturvargacintamani of Hemadri.".<ref>{{cite book |last1=McHugh |first1=James |title=Sandalwood and Carrion: Smell in Indian Religion and Culture |date=29 November 2012 |publisher=OUP USA |isbn=9780199916320 |page=136|url=https://academic.oup.com/book/3182 |access-date=29 November 2012}}</ref>[url=https://academic.oup.com/book/3182] This is one of very early recipes as it is also known in Dharmaśāstra texts. I am bit busy currently due to limited access to computer and may take awhile to respond at times.Vinai90 (talk) 18:29, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Vinai90. I think we will work well together on this article. It has needed someone with your knowledge for some time. I will take a closer look at your edits, and your comments, and respond. I also am a little busy at the moment, but I should have some kind of response for you over the weekend, or by Monday at the latest. Warm regards, SilkTork (talk) 02:33, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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