Talk:Ina Fried/Archive 1

Archive 1

Sex

Resolved

 – Per WP:MOS we use a subject's stated gender preference. Discussion on transgender and intersex issues can take place on more appropriate articles. -- Banjeboi 05:26, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

In an encyclopedic context Ina is a male. Ina's legal status is male. Sex is not subject to opinion and is defined genetically. I am a med student with an additional major in Clinical Psychology. Ina's self-proclaimed gender is debatable (and any debatable factoids should be left out of an encyclopedic entry). Ina's sex is not debatable. Medical procedures aimed towards facilitating a transgender transformation do not change one's sex. In the factual sense, sex is defined genetically, not aesthetically. It is far beyond current and foreseeable medical technology to change one's sex. The presence of a Y Chromosome is what defines genetic masculinity, so Ina falls well into that category.

160.36.94.244 (talk) 21:16, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Encyclopedic context or otherwise, the pronoun used to reference a subject should be that preferred by the person about whom there is discussion. It does not reference one's sex, but rather one's self-identified gender.--Thalia42 (talk) 20:13, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Medical schools don't have majors. You're lying about your credentials. Besides, they don't matter, as an editor's credentials does not a successful argument make. It's called appeal to authority, and it's a false logical justification.--KyleGoetz 11:17, 23 August 2008 (CST) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.179.61.169 (talk)

You are an opinionated individual wishing to FORCE your uninformed views on people. Do you want legal chapter and verse on how the courts have accepted the documentation of surgeons and have allowed transsexuals to marry, etc. If these documents are so acknowledged by the courts (as in divorce), your argument holds no water.

I am a Board certified Psychiatrist.

You uninformed MED STUDENT opinion is just that, uninformed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.73.76.101 (talk) 01:13, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

You've been cited by the Wikipedia Editors for introducing information into the encyclopedia without reliable sources. And... are you claiming that changing one's sex is possible? This past year alone I've studied under an APA board member in addition to one of the AMA's lead doctors working on the standardization of a nationally regulated medical database also serving as a mid-sized hospital's chief of medicine. They both agree with modern medicine regarding the world of 2008 lacking the technology to feasibly genetically modify human beings.

If you really are a psychiatrist, I am saddened that you don't believe in the Mammalian Chromosomal Sex-determination system. This system is not even under scrutiny by any group that I've ever heard of. After introduced by Stevens & Wilson in 1905, well, to my knowledge, all fields of science currently widely accept it, including (but not limited to) medicine, psychology, chemistry and biology. I haven't even heard of political or religious extremists who dispute this as one of the most basic systems in the field of genetics.

However, the fact that you referred to me as "You uninformed MED STUDENT opinion," I'm somewhat skeptical about your current professional status. I've not encountered a licensed psychiatrist that mistakes people for opinions... Also, your previously mentioned citations by Wikipedia staff for introducing material into the encyclopedia lacking sources, in addition to your leaving of anonymous entries, which is contrary to Wikipedian etiquette, lead me to question your familiarity with Wikipedia too.

160.36.94.244 (talk) 03:24, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Unless either of you is Ina Fried's doctor and has Ina's medical history, or performed genetic/chromosone testing on the person in question, it seems like we have to take Ina's own word on what sex Ina is, don't we? (What do we do in cases of boys being born with malformed genitals (or worse, damaged during circumcision) who have been raised as girls, and later in life discover the truth but continue to live as female? Do we refer to these--who by this technical definition are male--as "he" in spite of how they have been raised or now choose to live?) If you feel that "he" is not an accurate/appropriate pronoun for this article then a simple solution would be to avoid it altogether. Instead of writing "She presently serves as..." you can write: "Ina presently serves as..." (and if you feel so strongly about it, please have the cajones to sign your name to your edits). Yelocab (talk) 14:50, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

In my opinion, Ina should just show her penis to everyone on YouTube. -- Matthew Dickinson

To begin with using the term sex in the context of a person's gender identity is seen by many as mislabeling if you will. Gender identity & sexual identity are really two separate things. Further, the concept of chromosomes alone or for that matter birth genitalia hasn't been thought of as a true measure of gender identity has lost favor in today's world.

If the original contributor is in fact in the health care or psychological profession I sincerely hope that sie learns of what have came to be known of as The Harry Benjamin Standards of Care for Gender Disorder.

Gender Identity

World Professional Association for Transgender Health

--Ajcoles (talk) 15:35, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Ajcoles is correct in defining sex and gender separately. The original post also says the same thing. Gender is NOT the same as Sex, Steven & Wilson's findings regarding the sex chromosomes are now observable and factual, under no scientific dispute. It would not be necessary to source Ina possessing the XY Chromosome, since Ina needing surgery to remove his scrotum makes his XY Chromosome an undeniable truth. If that did need additional sourcing, we should also have a full section in all biographies arguing their humanity.

In terms of Gender, we're speaking about something completely different. Gender roles are a social construct and regard one's personal presentation of one's self. It is very appropriate (if properly sourced) to mention Ina's Transgender surgery, because it was a notable part of his life. It is not appropriate, and factually erroneous to say that Ina's sex is female. I think for the most part we should try to keep gender masculinity and femininity (by Western Standards) out of this encyclopedia. Gender roles are fully subjective, where sex is scientifically factual.66.253.190.204 (talk) 18:07, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I do not believe this article states Ms. Fried's sex or sex chromosome count. Rather, it identifies her self-identified gender, e.g. female. Stating that someone is female, and utilizing the female pronoun, is not a statement about one's chromosomes.--Thalia42 (talk) 20:17, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Of course this article doesn't state Ms. Fried's sex, legal sex assignment, or her chromosome makeup. I'm not sure what "gender" has to do with sex assignment other than as a set of appearances and behaviors based on that assignment. Obviously the original "med student" editor has little understanding of the variables of "sex". The "med student" should at least be aware that less than 1% of all the people on earth have ever had genetic testing which would classify them as male or female based on the presence of a "Y" chromosome. The fact is that individual legal sex assignment is nearly always made via a cursory examination of a person's genitals. That examination could be at birth or later in life. All the socially gendered expectations follow from that basis. Eventually an individuals sex assignment is evaluated and assumed during all social contact via presentation. It's generally considered good journalistic form to use pronouns appropriate to a person's self-identification.Bliss8 (talk) 21:16, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

What are these so called sex chromosomes? They are the development plan for ones sex. Does ones sex match this plan or not it is a different question. Sex chromosomes are not male nor female themselves. Consider an example: Somebody builds a house. In order to build it they have a house development plan created by the house architect. Say that this house is supposed to have a balcony according to this innitial plan. If the house owner decided to request a plan change and not to build a balcony, or if the balcony was removed later, then it would be naive to insist that the house still has the balcony since it was outlinned in the original plan. Besides (Now I'm refering to 'med student' who posted here earlier). It is not the presence of Y chromosome that has human fetus masculine development plan. It is SRY gene within it. If for some reason SRY gene appears to be in X chromosome then the born person will be male (very rare XX male condition). People having XXY chromosomes can be born male or female (depending on various other factors). People having XY and full androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS) are born and raised up as females. It is worth noting that default development plan for human fetus is female. SRY gene triggers testicular development. When the testicles appear they start to produce male sex hormone testosterone (albeit in very small amount), which usually directs fetus development to 'masculine path'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.125.32.195 (talk) 20:53, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Gender

Regarding which gender to use with regards to Ms. Fried, please note that the Wikipedia's Manual of Style:Identity has this to say:

A transgender, transsexual or genderqueer person's latest preference of name and pronoun should be adopted when referring to any phase of that person's life, unless this usage is overridden by that person's own expressed preference. Nevertheless, avoid confusing or seemingly logically impossible text that could result from pronoun usage (e.g., she fathered her first child).

Given that Ms. Fried publicly identifies as female, the Wikipedia holds that she should be referenced as such. TechBear (talk) 02:34, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Good catch. How did I miss that? Rklawton (talk) 01:05, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't have known either, except that this came up in editing the Alexander James Adams article about a year ago (not that I'm plugging for a great musician or anything.) TechBear (talk) 15:48, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Notability

Upon reviewing WP:BIO, I don't see how this subject satisfies any of the criteria. Any help? I read Fried's work daily, but I'm still at a loss. Rklawton (talk) 15:54, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I received the following from Ina Fried regarding notability:

I have contributed chapters to two anthologies. "Mentsh: On Being Jewish and Queer", edited by Angela Brown Alyson, 2004.[1] and "Out and About Campus", edited by Kim Howard and Annie Stevens, Alyson, April 2000[2] FWIW, I also am a frequent commenter on tech news on public radio and for other print and broadcast outlets.

Rklawton (talk) 19:49, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

This useful bit from an edit summary...

I object; Ina is an officer with a significant and influential journalistic organization. The article needs to be fleshed out more, but she -- and the story of her gender change -- are notable.) User:Rayeverettchurch

Gender transitions aren't sufficient grounds for notability, or we'd have thousands of articles. Being an officer for a notable organization might be sufficent, but Ina is a VP - and the president of that organization doesn't even have an article here. At the very least, can someone add a few articles from reliable sources written about Ina? Rklawton (talk) 20:07, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

If indeed Ms. Ina is notable, to quote WP:BIO, it should be possible to find that she "has been the subject of published secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject." The article currently has not a single third-party reference, but rather only has two footnotes linking to an organization she is a member of. Some searching of Lexis-Nexis does not turn up any articles primarily about her, or multiple non-trivial mentions in other articles. --Delirium (talk) 00:16, 25 August 2008 (UTC)