Talk:Ice/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Initial text

-- Ice made from demineralized water is much harder than ice made from mineralized water, because the minerals in water cause stresses and various imperfections in the crystal structure, which will produce dislocations that are weak compared to the structure of pure ice. The presence of dissolved air has a similar effect. ( http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem00/chem00616.htm )

-- pressure-melting point of the ice is lower, eg -2.67o C

The pressure doesn't melt the ice but it does lower the melting temperature making it easier to melt the ice.

(Hardness)

Ice near its melting point has a hardness of about 1.5 on the Mohs scale. This is about as hard as talc. At much lower temperatures ice becomes much harder. At -70 oC ice has the hardness of quartz (about 6-7 on the Mohs scale). The importance of this is that ice generally is not hard enough to abrade rock by itself. It usually needs tools in the ice to abrade and erode bedrock.


( http://216.239.53.100/search?q=cache:2Gq3NERDu8oJ:www.casdn.neu.edu/~geology/department/staff/colgan/class_notes/1444/iceprops.htm+%22hardness+of+ice%22+-cream+site:edu&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 )

-- Under relatively low pressure ice behaves as a plastic material.

At 0°C, ice has a hardness of 1.5 on the Mohs scale; at -70°C the hardness is 6 (Nesje and Dahl 2000).

Ice is subject to pressure melting. In other words, ice can be melted at temperatures below 0°C by application of pressure.

( http://216.239.53.100/search?q=cache:0W9MwCSBgWEJ:academic.emporia.edu/aberjame/ice/lec02/lec2.htm+%22hardness+of+ice%22+-cream+site:edu&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 )

-- The indentation hardness of ice [1] is extremely dependent on the load duration and ice temperature. For instance, at load durations of the order of 1, 10, and 100 s and an ice temperature of -2.5°C, the associated hardnesses of fine-grained polycrystalline ice are given by 30, 15, and 7 MPa. The load duration depends onthe ice velocity, but not in a simple manner, as it depends on the contact conditions at the interface (simultaneous or non-simultaneous contact, correlated or non-correlated spatial density of high pressurezones, ice thickness, degree of stable cracking). At the ice temperature just quoted, the pressure melting hardnesses are just a boundary layer away. If one were to assume associated secant moduli of 8, 6 and 4GPa, then the cleavage fractures would size as c ~ 6h, 7h and 8h, respectively.

( http://www.clarkson.edu/~john/pdf_files/efm_jpd_acp_dss_2001.pdf )

-- ice has both brittle and plastic properties. When subjected to sudden stress, ice Fractures;,when the stress is even and constant, it can bend

ice melts faster under pressure. It will even melt under pressure at subzero temperatures.

ice has the ability to be broken up or melted by pressure and then refreeze.

( http://216.239.53.100/search?q=cache:wWfwJSLAfzoJ:www.utmsi.utexas.edu/people/staff/dunton/k12/Physical%2520Prop%2520of%2520Ice.htm+%22brittleness+of+ice%22+site:edu&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 )

-- ductility of ice allow it to flow on flat surface

( http://216.239.53.100/search?q=cache:Ewh2POuOy4gJ:ijolite.geology.uiuc.edu/02FallClass/geo100/Lectures/100_T29_Glaciers.html+%22ductility+of+ice%22+site:edu&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 )

-- Ice deforms under an applied stress, much like a very viscous fluid, leading to the macroscopic phenomenon of glacier flow. Velocities in glaciers and ice sheets range from a few centimetres per year to a few kilometres per year. Where ice deformation is very rapid, fracture can occur that yields crevasses. Glacier ice appears blue because pure ice has a greater absorption of Light at the red end of the visible spectrum. [A.J.]

(ice. The Encyclopedia of Ecology and Environmental Management, Blackwell Science. Retrieved 13 June 2003, from xreferplus. http://www.xreferplus.com/entry/1380036 )

-- Ice has a very low coefficient of Friction. (See also Frost; Glacier; Hail; Ice ages; Iceberg; Icebreaker; Snow.) mp 0°C, bp 100°C, rd 0.92 (0°C).

(Illustrated Dictionary of Science, © Andromeda 1988)

-- The specific latent heat of fusion is 0.3337 MJ kg-1. Its density at 0 °C is 916.0 kg m-3, compared to water at 0 °C with a density of 999.8 kg m-3. There are several allotropic forms of ice, mostly stable only under high pressure.

(ice. The Penguin Dictionary of Physics. Retrieved 13 June 2003, from xreferplus. http://www.xreferplus.com/entry/1429291 )

-- Regelation:
The refreezing of ice that has melted under pressure alone, once the pressure is released. Ice skating depends on regelation, but as ice melts readily under pressure only while its temperature is near its Freezing point, skating may not be feasible in very cold weather.

( Regelation. Illustrated Dictionary of Science, Andromeda. Retrieved 13 June 2003, from xreferplus. http://www.xreferplus.com/entry/1063556 ) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.219.49.161 (talk) 11:59, 13 June 2003 (UTC)

Is Ice a fluid?

Is or isn't ice a fluid? My science teacher seems to think so, but my other teachers disagree.

The page answers that, although not in so many words. Most forms of ice, including ice I sub h, the form we are familiar with, are crystalline, and therefore not a fluid (unlike, say, glass), but it is possible to create amorphous ice by very rapidly cooling water, something like they way they make Liquidmetal brand golf clubs. Quadibloc (talk) 12:02, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Ice is always solid, as is regular glass (no, windows are not slow moving liquids; old glass is misshaped because the technology for making glass was less advanced). Amorphous ice is still solid, just not crystalline. Ice, by definition, is always a solid. If it's anything else, it's not ice. - Alltat (talk) 14:53, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


Freezing Ice

Water with fewer minerals freezes''''' faster''''' than water with more minerals — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.162.122.145 (talk) 01:43, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I wanna know what kind of ice the ice cubes u make in your fridge are: frazil, nilas, grease, slush pancake, young, grey, grey white, snow, transition or congelation??!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.30.125.205 (talk) 11:10, 28 March 2008 (UTC)


ice is a solid not a liquid. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.216.244.1 (talk) 05:45, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

i agree ice is solid but it is a form of the liquid water. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aussyoceans (talk • contribs) 23:25, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

It's the solid form of water, which is liquid at room temperature. Water isn't "inherently" liquid. It just happens to be liquid at room temperature. Most of the water in the universe isn't. - Alltat (talk) 14:53, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

'Upside-down growing icicles'?

I saw an incredible image on newspaper today(I live in South Korea). This is the link to the article. Below is the traslation of this article:

The icicles shooting up from the earth' are growing in front of disused tunnel's entrance at Sinseo myeon, Yeoncheon gun, Gyeonggi do. The reason why this 'upside-down icicles' 5~120㎝ in height that looks like standing candles are formed is not known yet. Reporter Young-cheol Cho <youngcho@joongang.co.kr>'

Does anybody know the reason of this phenomenon?

  • it is possible that warm air is exiting the tunnel with a lot of moisture in it, hitting cold air at the tunnel's exit. cold air holds less moisture than warm air, so the water might percipitate out and freeze. a thought, no idea if it's right

New York Times

Ice!

Strength

How strong is ice? That is, in regards to like concrete and stuff? How cold must it be for a certain volume of ice to be structurally sound if one were to make an ice hotel or something? Does anybody know this?

I think this would be a good place to look: [1]--Thorseth (talk) 13:28, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

a while ago i think i saw an article in a magazine about a hotel made of ice but i'm not sure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aussyoceans (talk • contribs) 23:27, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

It exists. It's more of a tourist gimmick than an actually useful building material, however. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alltat (talk • contribs) 14:56, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Pictures

There're waaaaaaaay too many pictures. We need to clean the page up a bit. Isopropyl 03:38, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I was going to post that, I mean seriously, there's like 3 pictures of icicles, 2 pictures of feather ice, and other copies! We only need 1 example per ice variance! Abcw12 (talk) 04:52, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
I took out some pictures that I felt were either copied or completely unneeded, but feel free to take out more pictures. Abcw12 (talk) 04:40, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Proton conductor?

See Talk:proton conductor. The Internet says in a few places that ice is a good proton conductor, but it's disputed. I found this hint that maybe it's only certain phases of ice? Can one of you ice experts comment over there and give better references and more specific details? — Omegatron 23:14, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Iam testing which type of ice is colder ice or dry ice if youknow email me at Maya8907@sbcglobal.net I doubt ice is a proton conductor. Protons are H+ ions, found in particular in liquid water. Yet [ionic] [solids] do not conduct ions or even electrons, why should ice be any different? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.184.234.24 (talk) 01:34, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Icicles

I think icicles certainly deserve a separate article, not just a redirect here. --Paul Pogonyshev 23:15, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Types of Ice:

The article currently states, "As well as crystalline forms solid water can exist in amorphous states as amorphous solid water (ASW), low density amorphous ice (LDA), high density amorphous ice (HDA), very high density amorphous ice (VHDA) and hyperquenched glassy water (HGW)." However, according to the article at amorphous ice, ASW, LDA, and HGW are all different names for the same form. I'd like to prune this list down to remove the redundant entries, but wanted to verify first that my understanding is correct. -- Heath 66.32.117.111 02:08, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment

It's wayyy too hard to figure out the simple physics of how much heat ice needs at 0C or 32F to melt, and how much must be subtracted for it to freeze, under normal conditions. We've over-answered the question. Please put yourself in the boots of a first year college student trying to look up the answer to this question, and read the page. I think you'll go, "huh?", along with me.

Phase diagram

How about somebody conjures up a nice phase diagram of ice for inclusion here? ʍαμ$ʏ5043 18:22, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Pancake Ice circular redirect

I saw a link to Pancake Ice in the article, but upon clicking it, I was redirected to the Ice article itself. Couldn't we at least get a stub? Or rewrite the section and remove the link. 69.118.138.25 06:54, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Global Warming

I tried to add some information, but all I could think of was that Ice played a part in global warming. However, I think maybe what I wrote can be improved on and put somewhere else instead of 'Uses of Ice'. Littleghostboo[ talk ] (Win an argument and leave your mark in history.) 07:17, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Freezing Point of Water

I have a question, I have pulled bottles of water out of the freezer that were liquid. When I opened the cap the water then began to freeze into a slush. I have never seen this before. The only things that I can think of that could cause this would be the environment that I am in. It is over 100 degrees F and very dusty (Iraq). IS it the pressure change, the introduction of nuclei, or the combination of both?

This article is gross

The writing is very staccatoed and doesn't flow well at all, there are too many irrelevant pictures, and there are are not enough citations. I came to this article from the "freezing point" section of water, expecting to find out exotic facts about phases of ice, and I think the article is thoroughly uninteresting to that end. This could use some work before inclusion in anything. Hjfreyer 11:18, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Ground ice

Hey, I took some pictures of some weird looking ice that grew from the ground. These ice-crystal strucutres were like pasta that come out an extruder, but there is no extruder, it's from the ground. I figure, the ground was wet, and since the temperature was just below freezing, as the water was draining from the ground, it froze, only to be pushed further by more excess water. The pieces I saw were about 2 inches in length and were bunched together in strings about as wide as a pencil lead, and in bunches about the diameter of a little finger.

How the heck do I post a picture?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.82.201.252 (talk) 02:58, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Moleculestructure

I miss pictures of the moleculestructure of ice. It would be more clear why ice is less dense than water Compufreak (talk) 13:14, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Would be good for our readers if this article explained why ice is less dense than water.   Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 19:09, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

From reading several web pages I gather that ice is 9% less dense because it has hydrogen bonds where as water has the stronger covalent bonds.   Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 19:19, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Incorrect. Difference in density is a matter of molecular packing. Both in water and in ice molecules are interacting through hydrogen (not covalent) bonds. Materialscientist (talk) 22:47, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Walking on water?

Recently in my biology class, me and a few other students argued about whether or not walking on ice counts as walking on water. Most of us agree that it does count, as ice is simply a form of frozen water. However, one kid (David) will not agree with us and repeatedly argues that it won't count. He claims "when you think of water, you think of a liquid". What do you guys all think about this? AquaStreak (talk) 12:34, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think there is a right or wrong. In everyday speech, water refers to the liquid. In everyday terms, David is right. This is also how the water is usually used in science. But of course since ice is a form of water, you're right too. Saros136 (talk) 14:06, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
I think David is right...if I were to ask for some ice cubes in my hot tea, I wouldn't say "pass the water", I would say "pass the ice cubes". Walking on water refers ONLY to liquid water. If you wanted to specify a different form of water, you can't just call it water, you have to specify it as something else. That is, you have to specify: "I'm walking on frozen water", otherwise its misleading. You aren't walking on water, because even scientifically, ice has a different molecular configuration than water (in terms of spacing, and probably the influence of hydrogen bonding in solid structure). Yes they are obviously made of the same substance, but solids and gases are clearly different than liquids, and need to be specified as such. So both colliquially and scientifically, I firmly agree with David. Fascinating discussion by the way!24.141.47.62 (talk) 21:42, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
No, it most definitely is walking on water when you walk on ice, though the above person is right that it could very easily be intentionally misleading. However, only the implication (that you're talking about liquid water) is wrong, but the actual sentence (supposing you are arguing about saying "I can walk on water", or something similar) contains no false information. It's like saying you have wood in your room, but it turns out to be a bookcase. Yes, you were being misleading, but also yes, your sentence was completely true (unless the bookcase isn't made of wood, but that's not the point at all). Aeonoris(talk) 05:05, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I guess that is walking on water in technical terms but not really. Aussyoceans(talk) 05:34, 3 February 2011

If walking on ice is walking on water, then walking on rock is walking on lava. 62.172.108.23 (talk) 12:47, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

What is the adjective

that means "of or pertaining to ice"? Serendipodous 16:53, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I would say, 'icy'. --DaGeekyNerd (talk) 06:44, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

history of ice making

I came to this site trying to find gathering ice, I saw nothing on the history of making ice. (And there is no link. When I tried typing "ice machine," I just got directed to te things in fridges.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.225.30.91 (talk) 13:34, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Slipperiness Theory

I thought ice become slippery because the thin layer of water on top of the ice is trying to bond with the ice beneath it, due to the water having to expand slightly it makes it more slippery. Elantrix (talk) 22:44, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Typo alert: at the end of thus section, "vehcile tires" should be "vehicle". In any case, this final sentence doesnt seem to fit after the preceding, more technical and better-sourced, sentences. So i would propose deletion of the sentence.

Rotten ice

Article should not be merged into this one. There are other articles such as Candle Ice and Black ice and Verglas describing ice states. If all such articles were merged into this, it would make the length unwieldy. Also the rotten ice article should be expanded -- I just didn't have access, for example to photographs. Also rotten ice may in some cases be caused by biological processes, or may shelter special biological forms (I don't have access to the scientific papers regarding this, and it isn't my field). Piano non troppo (talk) 21:25, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Ice and volatiles

I think some part of this diff with planetary science info should be merged back into "non-water ice" -- thoughts? -- phoebe / (talk to me) 00:37, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Proposal for the extraction of the Ice in transportation chapter

I would like to ask the community, if we should move the chapter Ice in transportation to an article called Ice in transportation or similar.

We already have Category:Ice in transportation. We need an admin who recalls the authors, too. --Scriberius (talk) 11:05, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Characteristics (dubious tag)

Do we have a cite for this? What about the thermal/volcanic vents on the ocean floor maintaining a "bubble" of meltwater where life could survive? Zotel - the Stub Maker (talk) 00:47, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Any body of water would have frozen from the bottom to the surface?

The statement, "if ice had sunk instead of floating, any body of water would have frozen from the bottom to the surface" is not at all obvious. Although other people have made this or similar statements, that doesn't prove that it is true. An insulator between water and the atmosphere can slow the rate of heat flow from water to the atmosphere; however, unless there is a source of heat input to the water, the water will approach the same temperature as the atmosphere. However, according to selected properties of fresh water, ice has a higher thermal conductivity. This means ice will conduct heat from the water to the atmosphere faster than if there was no ice cover. PE RHB100 (talk) 00:49, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

If ice had sunk and melted then doesn't matter, we are talking about equilibrium. If (significant amount of) ice had sunk and didn't melt then water had to freeze because of thermal balance. Am I missing something? Materialscientist (talk) 23:58, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
I assume that when you mention equilibrium you are talking about thermal equilibrium between the water ice mixture and the air above it. This occurs when the water ice mixture is at the same temperature as the air above it. But i don't see anything you have said that in anyway implies that "if ice had sunk instead of floating, any body of water would have frozen from the bottom to the surface". Are you able to provide a rigorous proof using standards of rigor typical of a book on advanced calculus. If you could do this I might be able to understand you but I just don't follow your logic in the above paragraph at all, Professional Engineer RHB100 (talk) 00:49, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
No, I ignore air, but water and ice should reach equilibrium temperature - either ice melts or water freezes. I might be completely wrong in here because ice formation usually needs undercooling. If so then probably you're right that sinking ice would not freeze water (well, you can just fill it up with sinking ice if there is endless supply from top :-) Materialscientist (talk) 00:56, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Is your argument that if ice sinks then warmer water at the surface would cause more heat flow to the atmosphere than if ice were at the surface? PE RHB100 (talk) 01:16, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, if contact with ice alone is not enough to freeze the bottom of the pool then sinking ice would push water up to the cooling source (to the top, where the ice had formed in the first place). I guess one could experiment on that, making ice around metal bars and submerging it. Materialscientist (talk) 01:29, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I think the way this problem should be analyzed is by looking at the total heat flow out of the water ice mixture, completing ignoring what takes place internally. There is heat flow at the surface and heat flow at the bottom and sides where the water ice mixture meets the earth. Probably the earth, atmosphere and water ice mixture never reach the same temperature. This brings up the question, is a condition in which the net heat flow is zero ever reached? And if so, is this a condition in which there is freezing from bottom to top of thw water? PE RHB100 (talk) 02:43, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Agree. Essential is not equilibrium but dynamics, i.e. if the convection is such that warmer water is pushed up to the cooling air then the pool will freeze regardless any equilibrium. As to "zero", it doesn't exist. You'll need to specify max. variations and look for the climate where this might occur. Some pools freeze to the bottom, i.e. icecap slows but doesn't stop the freezing. Freezing from bottom up? I imagine a river in a very cold place. Somehow its top layers move quickly enough to avoid freezing, but the stale bottom slowly cools through the ground. Hardly possible. Materialscientist (talk) 03:17, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Hardness, anyone?

What is the hardness for each form of Ice? Accepting that water, as a whole, has a very low hardness, what is the hardness of a molecule of water in directed spray form for the following nozzle pressures at an object at standard 1 Atm pressure at a certain distance removed: 

           KE(Nozzle) 1"  2"  6"
    10 psi
   100 psi
 1,000 psi
10,000 psi

(Fractalhints (talk) 12:19, 7 January 2010 (UTC))

Ice phases merge

Could all the ice phase articles ( Ice II, Ice III, and so on) be merged into this one? They don't give any information that isn't already in this article, and I think they'd be more coherent as part of one article rather than 15 different one-liner single-paragraph articles that lack introductions and context. --Wtshymanski (talk) 00:54, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

The summary table in this article is good enough, merging would swell it too much as some of those sub-articles are more elaborated than to lines. Merging in a separate article is possible though. Those stubs clearly need expansion. Materialscientist (talk) 08:13, 20 January 2010 (UTC)


Here's what I found:

  • Amorphous ice - long article, 7 kb 7 ref
  • Ice Ih long article, 7 kb 2 ref
  • Ice IcA - one liner, duplicated in table, 4 ref.
  • Ice II - 2 lines, 1 ref
  • Ice III 1 line, 1 ref
  • Ice IV 1 line, 1 ref
  • Ice V 1 line 1 ref
  • Ice VI 1 line 1 ref
  • Ice VII 5 paragraphs 9 references 5 kb diagram
  • Ice VIII 1 liner diagram 1 ref
  • Ice IX 1 liner 2 refs "in fiction" section for Vonnegut book
  • Ice X 1 liner 1 ref
  • Ice XI 2 paragraphs 1 ref 1 kb
  • Ice XII 3 paragraphs 2 refs 2 kb
  • Ice XIII 1 liner 1 ref
  • Ice XIV 1 liner 1 ref
  • Ice XV 2 short paragraphs "in fiction" section 4 refs


The "1-liner" articles are flagged as needing more context. Many of the references are to one web site and are not necessarily unique to that phase (some references describe two phases). All the "1-liner" articles contain the same sentence about the Bridgman nomenclature. Most of the actual data given in the single line in these articles is already in the summary table , althoguh I've already noticed some discrepancies in numerical values between the table and the articles. There were a couple of diagrams and the ever-popular "in fiction" section for two items.

I think the unique information (mostly the references if not already present) in at least 12 of these articles can be clearly be merged into the main article, with only the long-ish articles left. I always feel a little disappointed when I click on a link and get no new information. It will take a little more than cut'n'paste to merge the 12 or 13, but it would get rid of 12 or 13 "needs context" flags. This article is hovering around 31 kB which is no longer considered extraordinarily long; the additions would probably be two diagrams and a few references that may not already be here. The numbers should be checked for consistency with the original sources since there seem to be some discrepancies.

More comments? --Wtshymanski (talk) 14:49, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Update 2010 01 31 . --Wtshymanski (talk) 14:50, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Merger of meteorological information

I added the formation of natural ice as precipitation from the precipitation (meteorology) articles into this one. Thegreatdr (talk) 17:32, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Positive/Negative Charged water

A new study found that ice freezes at different places when it is positively or negatively charged: WIRED article -Kylelovesyou (talk) 05:20, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

this article refers to the charge of metallic surface that a water drop and eventual ice forms upon Niluop (talk) 04:16, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Slipperiness explanation missing something

The article as of this writing states that the "pressure melt" idea is no longer considered to be the cause of slipperiness, yet there are two things that must be then explained away:

  • why blades (that have little surface and therefore exert a relatively higher pressure) are preferred to a wider surface,
    perhaps lower friction
  • and also why some ice is not slippery at all but rather tends to stick to whatever object is attached to it. 99.254.159.219 (talk) 15:50, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
    I think the answer is not in properties of ice, but in humidity, temperature and the nature of the touching object. Materialscientist (talk) 03:03, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Cleanup the Link List

Is ice sports truly needed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.155.64.214 (talk) 17:55, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Lay readers

This article is clearly not written with the lay reader in mind. It's arrogant to have a sentence like this in the lead:

  • In non-scientific contexts, the term usually means ice Ih. If that's non-scientific, my rectum smells like roses.98.82.22.154 (talk) 22:46, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
The preceding paragraph was posted by me yesterday and apparently quickly reverted, with no explanation whatsoever. Look, whatever your reason for reverting me, short of vandalism, I think I deserve an explanation in your edit summary.
Now to the point. As I mentioned above, this article is not written with the average reader in mind. The current opening is meaningless to most people. What the heck is Ih? Sure, you can click on the link, but here we have an article about one of the most common substances on earth, and the average person gets through the first 33 words in near-total confusion. Someone less bright than average might literally get through the first paragraph and believe that he has arrived at the wrong article.
All I'm asking for is an article that meets our guidelines, including The first paragraph should define the topic without being overly specific . . . It is even more important here than for the rest of the article that the text be accessible. It is my opinion (although it's an apparently worthless opinion), that someone who understands these technical terms well (I certainly don't) should try to make this article's opening more accessible to the average reader. Is that so unreasonable to suggest that my idea deserves deletion? 98.82.22.154 (talk) 19:38, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
I have modified the intro slightly to clarify that ice Ih is one of the solid phases and that the reader is not assumed to know that. As for the deletion of your comment, I assume that Material Scientist found (as I did) that the your first version was rather rude and therefore bordered on vandalism despite its intended constructive content. Your second version is improved. Dirac66 (talk) 22:08, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
Lay readers would also be impressed by the ability of a block of ice to permit the passage of a metallic loop to be suspended

around it and then watching it pass through the block of ice by melting underneath it and refreezing above it such as to be able to pass through the block of ice and then drop to the floor. That's the only experiment I remember about ice that I had in Physics class.WFPM (talk) 16:27, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

changing density of ice

Early on in the article on ice the statement is made that ice is the only non metal that expands when freezing. i.e. the density of the solid is less than the liquid. This contradicts information in the main wikipedia where this characteristic is shared by Silicon and Bismuth. And a couple of metals also. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Suma rongi (talk • contribs) 08:18, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

I believe that because the exceptions you mention are metalloids they still have metallic properties and are not classified as non-metals. Niluop (talk) 03:39, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Silicon is a semiconductor, not a metal — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.206.170.21 (talk) 19:39, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Flexibility of ice.

In the section dealing with Phases, mention is made that the melting of ice under high pressure is part of the reasons for movement of Glaciers. But ice is quite flexible and can flow - rather a high viscosity perhaps, but it does deform. This is the main process of glacier ice flowing under the influence of gravity. It may even (aided by abrasives) deepen an inland lake significantly below sea level. Most large natural lakes in the South Island of New Zealand exhibit this behaviour. Suma rongi (talk) 09:25, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Ice is slippery

Wouldn't ice be slippery because of low friction? Thomasbum98 (talk) 16:23, 13 July 2011 (UTC)Thomasbum98

Phases

"Consequently, water also remains frozen at a temperature above 0 °C under a pressure lower than 1 atm."

looking at the graph I see something else. Should it not be:

"Consequently, water also remains frozen at a temperature above 0 °C under a pressure higher than 1 atm." ?

--Luke, 24.07.2012

Fixed, thanks. Materialscientist (talk) 10:42, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Sleet

I've added a bit to the "Ice pellets" section to note that "sleet = ice pellets" is a US term, and in Commonwealt English, sleet means rain and snow mixed. However, reading the Sleet article and talk page indicates it is a bit more complex than this (many Americans seem to use the "Commonwealth" version, parts of Canada apparently use teh US version, and non-Commonwealth English-speakign countries also use the Commonwealth version. I'm not sure the best way to sum this up in the article. 62.172.108.23 (talk) 13:00, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Phase table for XI

There seems to be some question about the temperature listed for XI ice formation. A few sources states that the temperature listed in this table for XI be the transition temperature, not the initial formation temperature according to the linked article that is the transition temperature between XI and Ih, as long is there are still XI micro seeds left which are reported to fully dissipate at 111K, So should this be listed as a transition point not the temperature at which it starts to form? According to other linked articles it starts to form around 72K with the assistance of a catalyst which then theoretically could be used to seed crystals at higher temperatures given time. This would closer match the phase diagrams at http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/phase.html and article at http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21128274.400-electric-ice-a-shock-to-the-solar-system.html which both indicate that the temperature is not 237K. 237K has only been claimed in the 1998 paper, and unobtainable by other researchers, unless I'm missing a paper that also backs that claim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanctuarysmiles (talk • contribs) 17:31, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Ice formation

Ice is known to expand when frozen. It thus can exert a force related to the process of expansion. However, if a strong enough chamber were filled with water and then cooled, (with a coefficient of expansion lass than that of ice), what would be the result of the water's inability to expand on its freezing process?WFPM (talk) 22:52, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Your question is answered on the Ice page itself; take a look at the phase diagram to see how water behaves at various temperatures and pressures. From the table, you can see that the ice would have to be quite compressed before it would exhibit a form different from regular ice. HMman (talk) 00:30, 11 March 2013 (UTC).
Very good!! And almost understandable. Except that I keep looking at a PV diagram and wondering how a liquid can keep increasing both its pressure and volume at the same time while undergoing a cooling process.WFPM (talk) 01:50, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
I don't quite understand. Hypothetically, if you have a strong enough container, the volume will stay the same (as the water is completely contained by the container) and the pressure will increase (as the ice is held back by the container). Or, you could have a semi-elastic container, where the volume increases slightly, while still not increasing enough to compensate for the expansion of the ice. Either way, the amount of compression will be relatively small, nowhere near the amounts of compression required to create a different form of ice near usual freezing temperatures. Of course, this is armchair theorizing on my part, as I've never experimentally tested this. HMman (talk) 02:29, 11 March 2013 (UTC).
You and I must be both confusing cause and effect. After something cools while under pressure it reaches some point of latent heat change and guess some of the latent heat content must be used to allow it to expand against the pressure while it changes its molecular structure. They don't go much into detail in some of these situation explanations. So we have to guess.WFPM (talk) 03:27, 11 March 2013 (UTC) Incidentally, I once failed a test question WFPM (talk) 03:35, 11 March 2013 (UTC)(IQ test) because I wasn't supposed to know that water was compressible.WFPM (talk) 03:35, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
After doing some research into this, it appears my assumptions were incorrect. The pressure produced by the freezing ice is quite large, which makes freezing improbable above temperatures of -109°C (the point at which the critical radius tends to infinity). HMman (talk) 13:57, 11 March 2013 (UTC).
It's hard to figure that out from the phase diagram since the liquid phase phase is shown as only extending down to 251 degrees Kelvin. And at a high pressure, so it must be running up the pressure value rather than expanding. But what about the flow work (PV/J) increase of the liquid when it freezes? It must get that from somewhere.WFPM (talk) 16:07, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Frankly, I don't know; the subject matter is beyond my expertise. From the result obtained by the experiment I linked to, I would suspect the phase diagram only applies for isobaric scenarios, not isochoric. The graph of the critical nucleus radius vs temperature suggests the isochoric ice could be potentially be supercooled even further, perhaps to about -120°C, which further conflicts with the phase diagram. Can you access the report? If not, I could send you a copy of you'd like, as you might find it easier to read it yourself; it's possible your question is answered there. HMman (talk) 17:30, 11 March 2013 (UTC).

Well it's not critical information to me so I guess that I pass. I also know that water expands with temperature. Because I had an experience where water samples that I collected in a glass container were breaking before they could be delivered to the laboratory. So the minimum volume is at 4 degrees C. So you have to be careful about what you read about things.WFPM (talk) 17:53, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
What would happen, under cooling to below 0°C at a defined volume, that at first you'd create supercooled liquid water, and once the pressure is high enough to form other crystal modifications those would form alongside of normal ice to give a combined density of close to one. (Ice I close to 0,92 g/cm³ and Ice XII for example 1,3 g/cm³.)--188.103.229.169 (talk) 22:32, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Communication by snowflake

Does anyone know the mechanism by which snowflakes tend to grow identically along all three axes? In other words, how can one axis 'know' what the others are doing?--DStanB (talk) 10:20, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Real snowflakes do not tend to grow identically along all three axes, at least not anymore alike with-in one snowflake as commared to between snowflakes. tahc chat 22:07, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Densities

Is it not possible to give density ranges, or at least representative densities, for different phases of ice? — kwami (talk) 23:04, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

superionic water and superionic ice

This seems to need to be updated to include the (bcc) superionic ice and (fcc) superionic water. -- 70.50.148.248 (talk) 05:25, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Phase diagram and table have minor inconsistencies?

To a casual visitor there appear to be two different types of Ice XI but only orthorhombic is discussed, and I can't see Ice IV or XIV on the diagram. Also "Proton-ordered" may merit a brief explanation or article. Servalo (talk) 11:06, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Number of solid phases

I noticed a recent edit changing the number of solid phases of water from 15 to 16. But the table seems to list 17 - amorphous, Ic, Ih, and II through XV. Does that sound right? -- Beland (talk) 15:42, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Well, on the advice of a chemist I said "16 known solid crystalline phases of water, or in an amorphous solid state at various densities". -- Beland (talk) 16:07, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Water to Ice expansion volume

I came to the article for some basic info but couldn't find it. I wanted to know by what percentage volume the water expands to ice. For example, if I put a litre bottle of water into the freezer, how much should I allow for expansion so that the bottle doesn't burst? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.61.61.161 (talk) 21:13, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

9% volume expansion when water freezes to ice -73.61.15.87 (talk) 20:39, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Traces of water

Are there traces of water on ice surface?--86.125.163.64 (talk) 19:39, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Ice is not always made of water

I find it perplexing why ice is narrowly defined as a phase of water (H2O) only. Nitrogen ice, methane ice, CO2 ice and so on are also ice. Somehow this article meeds to deal with this ambiguity. Either by broadening the definition of ice in the lede and including descriptions of ice from other materials or creating new pages on ice of individual materials.

@Phoebe: mentioned the same issue up above on 3 April 2009 (UTC).

RhinoMind (talk) 21:54, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 August 2015

The third figure in the article, File:Hex ice.GIF under Characteristics, should be replaced by File:Ice Ih Crystal Lattice.png to provide more information on the crystal basis, the molecular structure of H2O in ice, and the crystal structure (as opposed to only the structure as is the case with File:Hex ice.GIF). Dbuckingham42 (talk) 16:55, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

 Done by you, yourself - I assume you did not realize your account was now autoconfirmed, so you could do this yourself.
However, I'm not sure this 2D image is better than the 3D image - I've added links to both files in your post, so others can compare. - Arjayay (talk) 17:32, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 October 2015

Add {{pp-vandal}} 115.188.198.32 (talk) 02:23, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Edit request: Please improve reference 13 (request date: 2015-10-17)

Reference #13 (Makkonen et al.) is lacking a DOI.

Please replace the current version...
<ref>Makkonen, L., Tikanmäki, M. (2014). Modelling the friction of ice. ''Cold Regions Science and Technology'' 102: 84-93.</ref>

... by:
<ref name="Makkonen2014">{{Cite journal |first=Lasse |first2=Maria |last=Makkonen |last2=Tikanmäki |title=Modelling the friction of ice |journal=Cold Regions Science and Technology |volume=102 |pages=84–93 |date=June 2014 |accessdate=17 October 2015|doi=10.1016/j.coldregions.2014.03.002 |issn=0165-232X }}</ref>

Thanks! Michelsberg (talk) 14:58, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

Done Cannolis (talk) 15:22, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

Partial vapor pressure of triple point of water: 611.73 Pa or 611.657 Pa?

The value 611.73 Pa is cited here as well as in all related artciles in Wikipedia. But the source is not provided! The most recent reference which I could find on this, Murphy and Koop (QJRMS, 2005) gives 611.657 +/- 0.01 Pa and this is also the value used by the International Association for the Properties of Water and Steam (Wagner et al., J.Phys.Chem.Ref.Data,1994). Unless the value 611.73Pa can be referenced properly, Wikipedia should use the internationally recommended value. Simon Chabrillat (talk) 11:13, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

This has been fixed by changing the value to 611.657 Pa, following discussion at Talk:Triple point. Dirac66 (talk) 00:17, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

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ice melting

heyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.172.160.189 (talk) 23:26, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

See ablation section Lydia Van Dyke (talk) 11:17, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Possible disagreements

I linked through this article to "www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/ice_phases.html#br" and its related pages. Some of the data seem, to my incredibly uneducated eye, to contradict. I'm a lazy student of the densities of hyper-ices, so discovering anomalies is disheartening, but could grow from my ignorance rather than from flaws attributable to the wikipedia sources or the LSBU sources. FYI. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 333steve (talk • contribs) 15:50, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

Adding a section that covers ice ablation

Please add the following inbetween the section natural formation and production because ice ablation is so far not covered by the article.

Done You may want to consider additional references, however. Both of the ones you've provided seem to have some sort of login barrier which would prevent most from reading their full contents. Pishcal (talk) 23:32, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
Thank you There are free mirrors for the articles. E.g. I just did a quick web search for > filetype:pdf "Impact of Thermally Driven Turbulence on the Bottom Melting of Ice" Lydia Van Dyke (talk) 11:09, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Ablation

Ablation of ice refers to both its melting and its dissolution.

In fresh ambient melting describes a phase transition from solid to liquid. To melt ice means breaking the hydrogen bonds between the water molecules. The ordering of the molecules in the solid breaks down to a less ordered state and the solid melts to become a liquid. This is achieved by increasing the internal energy of the ice beyond the melting point. When ice melts it absorbs as much energy as would be required to heat an equivalent amount of water by 80°C. While melting, the temperature of the ice surface remains constant at 0°C. The velocity of the melting process depends on the efficiency of the energy exchange process. An ice surface in fresh water melts solely by free convection with a velocity that depends as (T∞ - 4 °C)4/3 on the water temperature,T∞, for intermediate temperatures.[1]

In salty ambient dissolution rather than melting often causes the ablation of ice. Eg. the temperature of the arctic ocean is generally below the melting point of ablating sea ice. The phase transition from solid to liquid is achieved by mixing salt and water molecules, similar to the dissolution of sugar in water, even though the water temperature is far below the melting point of the sugar. Hence dissolution is rate limited by salt transport whereas melting can occur at much higher rates that are characteristic for heat transport.[2] Lydia Van Dyke (talk) 21:21, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Keitzl, Thomas; Mellado, Juan Pedro; Notz, Dirk. "Impact of Thermally Driven Turbulence on the Bottom Melting of Ice". J. Phys. Ocean. 46(4): 1171–1187. doi:10.1175/JPO-D-15-0126.1. {{cite journal}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help)
  2. ^ Woods, Andrew W. "Melting and dissolving". J. Fluid Mech. 239: 429–448. doi:10.1017/S0022112092004476. {{cite journal}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help)

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Semi-protected edit request on 29 September 2017

ایده شو (talk) 07:50, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
Not done: as you have not requested a change.
Please request your change in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".
Please also cite reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 08:06, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

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pressure lowers freezing point of water a slight amount

  • www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/density_anomalies.html Explanation of the Density Anomalies of Water
"Pressure reduces ice's melting point (13.35 MPa gives a melting point of -1 °C)"
"In water, this line is backward sloping with slope 13.46 MPa ˣ K-1 at 0 °C, 101.325 kPa."

Many people want to know if the pressure in water pipes lowers the freezing point. Almost all Internet info including WP is not helpful: science phase diagrams in unfamiliar units that do not show appropriate detail, only that the melt temp does not vary much with pressure under common water pipe conditions.

It would be great to have a graph of temp in C and F (not K) vs pressure in PSI for 0-10,000 PSI for inclusion in WP articles. Until then, 13.35 MPa converts to 1936.25 psi (pounds per sq. inch). We could say something like:

  • Pressure in water pipes reduces the freezing point slightly: a pressure of 1936 psi lowers the freezing point to -1 °C.

The graph in the good Martin Chaplin LSBU article appears to show that 100 MPa (14,500 psi) would lower the melt temp by about 10 °C.

Typical water pipe pressures are usually around 100 psi, which apparently would lower the freezing point by a small fraction of a degree. If the slope at zero is 13.46 MPa per degC, that works out to 0.051 °C (0.092 °F) for 100 psi. Or maybe a more useful rule-of-thumb to remember would be 1000 psi lowers melt point by about 0.5 °C (0.9 °F). It would be a relevant factoid to include in some articles, if we could be sure of the science/physics facts.-73.61.15.87 (talk) 20:46, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

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