Talk:Hretska Ploshcha

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Requested move 14 September 2016[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: There appears to be emerging consensus not to mix languages, and hence, not moved as proposed. Many were not opposed to the alternative Greek Square, and if folks believe it a more suitable title per WP:UE, consider a follow-up RM first (which could be immediately. (non-admin closure) — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 02:24, 6 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hretska Ploshcha → Hretska Square – Standartization of title in category:Squares in Ukraine Yuriy Kvach (talk) 15:20, 14 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment Any evidence that "Hretska Square" is in use? The Ukrainian version seems to be.--Cúchullain t/c 13:44, 16 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nomination. Since "Ploshcha" means "Square" in Ukrainian and all currently existing Wikipedia articles about city squares in Ukraine use the form "Square" in place of the original form "Ploshcha" {Teatralna Square (Donetsk), Freedom Square (Kharkiv), Market Square (Lviv), Postal Square, etc}, it appears out of place that this single entry should use the Ukrainian form. In fact, taking into account the translated names of most other squares, the main title header for this entry should be Greek Square ("Hretska Ploshcha" literally means "Greek Square", as indicated in the article's lead sentence) —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 19:12, 16 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    This is not correct to translate the name of the square (from Hretska to Greek). --Yuriy Kvach (talk) 04:52, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The full translation of the name [rather than simply translating "Ploshcha" to "Square"] would follow the pattern established by many other entries in the previously-mentioned Category:Squares in Ukraine, for example, Victory Square, Kiev, not Ploshcha Peremohy; Square of Contracts (Kiev), not Kontraktova Ploshcha; European Square (Kiev), not Yevropeys’ka Ploshcha; Constitution Square (Kiev), not Ploshcha Konstytutsii; Postal Square, not Poshtova Ploshcha; Freedom Square (Kharkiv), not Plóshcha Svobodý; Market Square (Ivano-Frankivsk), not Ploshcha Rynok and others. There are a few which are not translated, such as Bessarabska Square or Teatralna Square (Donetsk), but the majority are translated. Perhaps this inconsistency should be compared [squared] with the pattern (if any) followed by other listings in such categories as Category:Squares in Europe and Category:Squares and plazas by country. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 10:44, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Best to leave it as it is instead of this awful mix of languages. Either leave in the original language or translate fully, unless (and only unless) there is good evidence that this mixed-language version is the name by which it is commonly known in English. I see no such evidence. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:48, 20 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per WP:UE. Google Maps calls it this,[1] and it is probably the closest we have to a WP:COMMONNAME, more so than "Ploshcha", a transliteration used by almost nobody.  — Amakuru (talk) 13:59, 21 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • Google Maps isn't a reliable source. It shows some very odd names. WP:UE does not, despite obvious belief among some editors, say we should always translate to English (and certainly not that we should "translate" into this ghastly half-and-half version). It says the common term in English-language sources should be used if there is one. As to "Ploshcha" being used by almost nobody, I'm not sure where you get that from as it's certainly a term I became familiar with when I spent two weeks in Kiev. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:24, 21 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose mixing languages in the title, support Greek Square which is used in many sources, either historical or touristic. If we're going to argue WP:UE then we must fully translate. — JFG talk 10:17, 2 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 19 November 2016[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved as there does not appear to be consensus that the existing title is inadequate. Bradv 21:49, 6 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hretska Ploshcha → Greek Square – Per previous discussion and WP:USEENGLISH. Besides Wikipedia policy, many English-language sources use this name. — JFG talk 21:16, 19 November 2016 (UTC) --Relisting. JudgeRM (talk to me) 20:19, 27 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note that there's a certain logic in the way en.Wikipedia with Moscow squares and Google maps handle these cases. "Street" "Square" etc tell the reader what it is. "Hretska" etc tell the reader the name, without attempting to translate what is a name, not a reality. It is really a square, but not really Greek. In ictu oculi (talk)
In any case Oppose move to Greek Square, best left as is than mock English. In ictu oculi (talk) 22:03, 27 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nomination. The previous discussion has already demonstrated a lack of support/consensus for the originally proposed form "Hretska Square". —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 07:49, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Note: Announcement of this discussion appears at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ukraine —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 20:50, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Most sources seem to call it Hretska Ploshcha. We don't translate for the sake of it and that's most certainly not what WP:UE says. We certainly do not "translate" into some dreadful mixture of English and another language. We wouldn't translate the names of squares in Paris; why do we translate the names of squares in Odessa? -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:38, 23 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
1) Necrothesp, as specified two months ago [September 14, first discussion, above] in the original nomination by Ukrainian Wikipedian Yuriy Kvach, the basis for his submission was the obvious fact that none of the entries under Category:Squares in Ukraine uses the Ukrainian form "ploshcha". Indeed, the majority of such square names are fully translated into English, as already indicated in the same previous discussion {Freedom Square (Kharkiv), Market Square (Lviv), Postal Square, etc}.
2) If an English Wikipedia consensus develops, or has developed, regarding a uniform naming of non-English-language streets in the manner of your Category:Squares in Paris example, we would be able to correlate all such names, including the ones in Ukraine. As matters remain now, however, if Hretska Ploshcha were to remain unchanged (either to Hretska Square or to Greek Square), it would stand alone as the sole entry under Category:Squares in Ukraine with both elements, "Hretska" and "Ploshcha", left untranslated.
3) Finally, although Yuriy Kvach submitted the name of a square in his native Odessa, the second part of your closing question, "why do we translate the names of squares in Odessa?", can be intended for all Ukrainian squares since the translation of Ukrainian street names extends to not solely Odessa but, as depicted in the category, all other cities listed there (Donetsk, Kiev, Lviv, Ivano-Frankivsk, Kharkiv, Lutsk, etc). —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 19:43, 23 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That is utterly irrelevant. All that matters is the common name. There seems to be this knee-jerk reaction from some editors (weirdly, often those whose native language is not English) that all foreign names have to be translated into English (or some weird hybrid), no matter what the common name is or how ridiculous the name then looks. WP:UE and the example of the Parisian squares (which must really anger some of the more rabid UE advocates!) proves quite clearly that this is not the case. Remember, Wikipedia does not make usage; it follows usage. -- Necrothesp (talk) 08:48, 24 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
1) Necrothesp, much of it depends on the language. For example, in the English-speaking world, a number of film titles in German (Das Boot), French (Au Revoir Les Enfants), Italian (L'Avventura) or Spanish (Y Tu Mama Tambien) remain in their original form [although with initial caps, especially in the U.S., to follow English-language film titling orthography]. However, not a single Ingmar Bergman film retains its Swedish title (The Seventh Seal, not Det Sjunde Inseglet).
2) That said, with the obvious proviso that titles of artworks and street names are quite different entities, I suggest you glance at the entries under categories mentioned in the previous discussion, Category:Squares in Europe and Category:Squares and plazas by country and go down the list: Category:Squares in Albania, Category:Squares in Armenia, Category:Squares in Azerbaijan, Category:Squares in Belarus, Category:Squares in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Category:Squares in Bulgaria, Category:Squares in Croatia, etc., all of which are virtually entirely composed of entries using the English word "square". Even entries under Category:Squares in Germany are not exempt, with such translations as Old Market Square, Potsdam or Historic Market Place, Hildesheim.
3) Ultimately, under the present state of affairs, if Hretska Ploshcha were to remain untranslated, it would, as mentioned earlier, be the sole such holdout in its category and in most other categories under languages less familiar in the English-speaking world (Category:Squares in Mongolia). —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 11:32, 24 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but that's often because editors have misinterpreted UE and nobody has yet corrected them. As I said, there's a bit of a mania on Wikipedia with translating everything into English. If squares are actually commonly known in the English-speaking world under an English name then that's fair enough, but we should not be translating merely for the sake of it in the mistaken belief that UE mandates it. It does not. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:45, 24 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The existence of such a large contingent of article titles using the English-language form, "Square", is difficult to dismiss as merely WP:OTHER STUFF EXISTS. A mass nomination of such "Square" main title headers could, of course, be submitted for renaming but, in this particular instance, are we going to "set an example" by leaving Hretska Ploshcha as is and refusing to move it to a translated form of either "Greek" or "Square" or both? —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 04:41, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Those who may be undecided about such translations in the Slavic-speaking world are invited to participate in the current vote at Talk:Red Square#Requested move 1 December 2016 in which Red Square is proposed for move to Beautiful Square. The lead sentence of the Red Square entry indicates, "Red Square (Russian: Кра́сная пло́щадь, tr. Krásnaya plóshchaď; IPA: [ˈkrasnəjə ˈploɕːətʲ]) is a city square (plaza) in Moscow, Russia". Relative to the Ukrainian "Hretska Ploshcha" nomination, it should be noted that the Russian name for Red Square is "Krasnaya Ploshchad", but its English name is "Red Square". —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 05:38, 1 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly. Its English name is Red Square. Its English name has always been Red Square. It is known as Red Square all over the English-speaking world. It's an entirely different situation from translating the name of a square that's not usually translated into English just for the sake of some misguided notion that that's what we do on Wikipedia. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:57, 1 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - Having read the arguments, the only guideline I consider to be relevant here is WP:COMMONSENSE. I've never heard of 'Greek Square'. It does not exist in the English language. Google it and you'll get absolutely nothing even vaguely related to Hretska Ploshcha, so I'd love to know where all of these RS using "Greek Square/Greek square" are. After an intensive search, I found one article by a V. Skvirskaja referring to it. That does not make for COMMONNAME by any stretch of the imagination. Why would a native English speaker/reader even have a clue as to what it translates as (kind of/sort of) in the English language. As has already been pointed out, this is Wikipedia and we don't make up our own nomenclature as we go because that's a blatant breach of WP:NOR. Transliteration is the standard where there is no common name in the English language. Aside from Necrothesp's observation about the obsession with translating everything into English by many editors for whom English isn't a first language, there's also a strange compulsion amongst Wikipedians who spend most of their time working on categories getting a little on the anal side when it comes to creating order. There's not actually a problem to have something called 'Whatever Ploshcha' in a squares category. The average adult's cognitive skills will override the initial horror of seeing something that doesn't end in 'square'. Apologies for being a little flippant, but there's been an inordinate amount of time and energy sunk into this. Cheers, all! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:54, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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