Talk:Horace Silver/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Quality

The quality of this article is not very good. Some major work needs to be done, and I'm sorry to see it in such a sad state at the moment. (Mind meal 09:44, 29 June 2007 (UTC))

Death rumours

There is no source stating that Horace Silver is actually dead, as of 8:48AM EST.BassHistory (talk) 13:48, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Untrue, try this German Swiss article if the Jazzwise piece is insufficient:. Philip Cross (talk) 14:19, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

The Jazzwise source IS insufficient. Don't weasel around that fact. If a real source, comes to light (in English), add it.BassHistory (talk) 14:23, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Let's look at the Jazzwise article, shall we? The openning sentence reads as follows:

It has been widely reported online and across social media that Horace Silver, one of jazz’s most prolific composers and influential pianists, has died aged 85 after a lengthy illness.

"It has been widely reported online and on social media". That has to be some of THE WORST journalism I have EVER seen! Mike Flynn, whoever he is, should be fired immediately. Facebook and Wikipedia. His sources are Facebook, and Wikipedia. Someone read it on Facebook, and then entered it in Wikipedia. Then the brilliant Mr. Flynn wrote his masterpiece article, which is subsequently posted to Wikipedia.BassHistory (talk) 14:36, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

I got a 404 error when I tried to view the Jazzwise article. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 17:00, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Apparently, he is still alive and this was all a hoax. There was supposedly confirmation from NPR, where his son was interviewed. I can't say that I don't feel vindicated for reverting all of the irresponsible edits. And really, shame on all of you here who tried to push the rumor through Wikipedia. It is trully an abuse of the platform.BassHistory (talk) 17:35, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

This article is now under temporary protection due to content disputes over the death claims. The one reference that has been mentioned states that his death is still a rumor and unconfirmed; when multiple reliable sources agree that he has passed, we can add the data then. Please discuss this further here. Slambo (Speak) 15:48, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

The Blue Note twitter feed confirms what has already been said. The category '2013 deaths' needs reverting to 'Living people' as soon as possible. Philip Cross (talk) 18:04, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Done. Jazzwise has since issued an apology for their earlier report. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 19:02, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Page should be editable to registered users now!Cosprings (talk) 19:37, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

The temporary page protection is now lifted. I don't see anything at NPR's site to confirm the interview request noted above, but the apology and correction notice confirms the original assertion that he has not yet died. Slambo (Speak) 11:55, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Name change from Silva to Silver

When, why? It's not mentioned at all. 24.241.69.99 (talk) 21:34, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Done. Have now added some detail to Early Life section. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:33, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Not really "more American-sounding" - to me they sound pretty much the same. I know that the source uses the phrase, but we don't have to follow that. It's more of an spelling/orthographic change. Davidships (talk) 09:05, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, you're quite right. I would imagine that what that source may have meant was "American-looking", i.e. how it might look on a job-application form (as for the many thousands of other Europeans who wanted to maximise their chances in the new world). And of course, it's going to be a function of regional accent - how that final "r" gets pronounced, if at all. Feel free to adjust as you see fit. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:12, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Style

I added this from Ronald Atkin's obituary piece in The Guardian:

"Realising that Powell's virtuoso technique was out of reach for him, Silver modified the style through chords, crafty use of space and oddball quotes from other melodies. Underpinned by pounding left-hand figures, these imparted a special kind of bonhomie, while the lack of bombast made Silver exceptionally convincing as a blues pianist. For many years, he played with his right wrist arched high over the keys, useless for fast fingering but effective for making each note ring out. Whereas frontline soloists expected pianists to feed them appropriate chords, Silver laid down more intrusive patterns, closer to riffs from a swing band." [1].

It seems like a useful summary. But another editor removed it. Should it go back in? Martinevans123 (talk) 10:11, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

The Influences and legacy section should be split: influences on him; influence on others; probably playing style as well. The quote is too long, but it could be paraphrased and included in a Playing style section. Part of the problem is the overall structure: without a major overhaul, fiddling with one part will lead to objections / reverts, because the article's structure is unclear. Look at some other jazz biographies for possible structures. EddieHugh (talk) 12:40, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

I fully agree about influences and legacy. If you think a major overhaul is in order, by all means go ahead. And trimming the quote would be perfectly acceptable. Many thanks for your input. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:04, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

I might take it on at some point if no-one else does, although I usually take on articles on more obscure people. In any case, I'll wait until the attention on him has faded a bit. Thanks, EddieHugh (talk) 15:21, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

shucks, if only he hadn't made ITN... Martinevans123 (talk) 15:30, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Plagiarised

Large parts of the article were seemingly copied from Silver's website and pasted in, unattributed, I think on 29 June 2007. I've put these in quotation marks for now and will return later and change/delete them when working on the rest. EddieHugh (talk) 21:34, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

All now removed/replaced. EddieHugh (talk) 14:03, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Horace Silver/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Dr. Blofeld (talk · contribs) 17:31, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Lede

" Their Horace Silver and the Jazz Messengers album contained Silver's first hit, "The Preacher"." -what year was this?

The track was recorded in 1955. I don't have a date for the original 10" release that contained "The Preacher". Horace Silver and the Jazz Messengers was released in 1956. I go for the jazz discography system of using the recording date. Is the current "mid-1950s", with his leaving the band in 1956, sufficient? EddieHugh (talk) 13:31, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

"Silver left Blue Note after 28 years, founded his own record label," -which was?

Probably not worth mentioning here, as almost no-one will know about it and as far as I know it was just for his own recordings. EddieHugh (talk) 13:31, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

". Many of his varied repertoire of songs became jazz standards that are still widely played." -such as?

Added three examples. EddieHugh (talk) 13:31, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

Early life

Correct link to Nat King Cole

Done. EddieHugh (talk) 13:36, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

"Silver graduated from St. Mary's Grammar School in 1943.[12]" -new paragraph needed

Good point. EddieHugh (talk) 13:36, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

Later life

Not sure how 1950 could be described as "later life". I would simply change to Career.

This dates back to when another reviewer asked me to inocorporate a Personal life section into a Career section. It makes sense to me, so a heading that incorporates both 'life' and 'career' is needed. I've used "Later life and career" for a while, to contrast with "Early life" while including "Career". Suggestions for better alternatives are welcome. EddieHugh (talk) 13:55, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

" at a club in Hartford" -do we know the name?

Some sources mention a name, but, from memory, they're not consistent. EddieHugh (talk) 13:55, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

"and, the following year, by Art Farmer, Miles Davis, Milt Jackson and others.[24]" -is "by" the right word here?

Sort of... added a few words to try to improve that bit. EddieHugh (talk) 13:55, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

"Silver was also busy recording as a sideman. In 1953, he was pianist on sessions led by Sonny Stitt, Howard McGhee, and Al Cohn, and, the following year, by Art Farmer, Miles Davis, Milt Jackson and others.[24] He also" -rep of "also"

Cut the second one. EddieHugh (talk) 13:55, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

The rest looks fine, but I would like to see some examples of standards he was known for. Perhaps the compositions section could be altered to include standards.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:03, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

There are now three stated explicitly in the lead, where "The Preacher" also appears. "Doodlin'" and "Peace" are described in Compositions, as is "Opus de Funk", which I didn't find an explicit "this is a jazz standard" statement for. I could more bluntly state in Compositions that the first two are (someone has described them as) jazz standards.

Yes, that would be fine.

Thank you for another review. Updates are indented above. EddieHugh (talk) 14:07, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the prompt response.

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

Is it reasonably well written?
A. Prose quality:

B. MoS compliance:
Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
A. References to sources:

B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

C. No original research:
Is it broad in its coverage?
A. Major aspects:

B. Focused:
Is it neutral?
Fair representation without bias:
Is it stable?
No edit wars, etc:
Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
Overall:
Pass or Fail: ♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:13, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

Excellent job, a sound overall article.♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:17, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

Help desk question

What good is your service if that facts are twisted and unbalanced in reporting what the person is doing in his/her life or has left the Earth? This need to know everything coupled with this technology has desensatized humans to the degree that they don't care what they say in print because they can hide behind their logins or other disguises.

All of these comments regarding Horace Silver's health status are totally irrelevant to what he contributed to the world. Also they are totally unnecessary. Why is his back conditions more important to "Joe Blow" public to know rather than what a beautiful spiritual man he was who loved what he did a loved all humanity? I am fed with this type of insignificant and trivia reporting of so called facts about well meaning people and their contributions to the world.

Fact: Christian McBride is not or has he ever been a personal friend of Horace's or his son or wife. He did the tribute for Horace in Los Angeles at the Disney Center to fill his pockets and to broaden his profile. It was hurtful to his family members when he made his comments and linked himself into the Wikipedia page. It is also unprofessional and despicable that Wikipedia insists on not deleting McBride’s' comment and his self-promotion link from Horace's page. His wife's name was Barbara Dove and it was changed over 45 years ago. You can find info about her at www.fivefeetnine.com. or contact her at <redacted>. How ignorant and unprofessional to make the comment. Barabara Jean Dove is not notable in her own right! Do your research! Instead of trying to research Horace’s medical history.

At WP:Help Desk#Horace Silver Wikipedia Page, an IP claiming to be his wife is demanding that the sentence "Bassist Christian McBride revealed in 2007 that Silver had Alzheimer's disease." be removed, and also that Silver only had one wife. Joseph2302 (talk) 17:34, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

A fuller version of what the person claims is here (self-published, I believe, so not a reliable source). At the moment, there are sources, used in the article, stating a medical condition; I don't know of others stating a different one or that he did not have that one, so the sentence stands. I hope that we'll have more information, reliably sourced, on the last decade or so of his life at some point, but, for now, what we have is what's in the article. (On the second point, there's no suggestion in the article that he had more than one wife.) EddieHugh (talk) 21:01, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Quite apart from this enquiry, do you think his wife could/should be mentioned by name in the article? I note that that self-published source by also says: "He sustained a back injury as a young boy that left him with scoliosis of the spine ... He also developed osteoarthritis in the lower vertebras of the spine". Martinevans123 (talk) 21:10, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

She is named, albeit as she was known when married to HS, which is the relevant bit. His spine is also mentioned, although not with that amount of detail: just enough to explain why he wasn't in the military (just as his later stated medical condition explains why he didn't play in public for a decade). EddieHugh (talk) 22:12, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes, maybe that's enough for now. They divorced and Barbara Jean Dove is not notable in her own right. But I also await better sources for his medical conditions. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:22, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

The same IP told me how to contact Christian McBride, and I feel confident that he responded to me and stood by his statement. although as I suspected, he says he did not add the information to Wikipedia.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 20:47, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

I copied the following (once personal information was redacted) from the talk page of the IP that is trying to get the information removed. I would appreciate any advice on how to proceed. I merely told the person it was up to her to provide the information that we need to remove the claim.

---

This is totally absurd!. I do not have anything to hide and my information is accessible worldwide. Other than someone hacking into my credit card info, I live a transparent life. This Wikipedia is good for people who are preoccupied with a need to know everything! Every little detail or incorrect information needs some type of sensor. I would rather petition to have Horace's page totally erased from Wikipedia rather than to discredit his memory or to hurt our son.

I contacted Christian McBride personally. He called me and said he was repeating gossip but he apologized and said he would contact Wikipedia and see if he could get his statement removed, but he had no guarantee that it would!

I will contact my attorney and see what he advises about this matter. This is his agent's number:Andre Guess at <redacted>. He can put you in touch with Christian.

I am totally discussed by how the request have been handled and have no faith or trust in these Wikipedia people at all. They have stooped to becoming A+ TRASH SENSATIONALISM RESOURCE to fill the idol minds!

This is the email I sent to Christian (which to his credit he called me personally..must have had some kind of home training in respecting his elders!) Subject: Request to remove your statement from Horace Silver's Wikipedia Page From: <redacted> (Add as Preferred Sender) Date: Mon, Apr 25, 2016 9:56 am To: <redacted> Dear Christian,

I am very upset to see that your medical quote and email info are still linked to Horace's page. Out of decency and respect to Horace and his son, I am asking you to contact Wikipedia and remove your uncorroborated medical statement. You have a father who is a well know musician, how you would like seeing things that are hurtful to you and your family?

I have nothing to hide and these are some of my comments with Wikipedia. I have also attached an article I wrote and shared about Horace’s' move to the east coast.

Wikipedia What good is your service if facts are twisted and unbalanced in reporting what the person is doing in his/her life or has left the Earth? This "need to know everything" coupled with this technology has desensitized humans to the degree that they don't care what they say in print because they can hide behind their logins or other disguises.

All of these comments regarding Horace Silver's health status are totally irrelevant to what he contributed to the world. Also they are totally unnecessary. Why is his back conditions more important to "Joe Blow" public to know rather than what a beautiful spiritual man he was who loved what he did a loved all humanity? I am fed with this type of insignificant and trivia reporting of so called facts about well meaning people and their contributions to the world.

Fact: Christian McBride is not or has he ever been a personal friend of Horace's or his son or wife. He did the tribute for Horace in Los Angeles at the Disney Center to fill his pockets and to broaden his profile. It was hurtful to his family members when he made his comments and linked himself into the Wikipedia page. It is also unprofessional and despicable that Wikipedia insists on not deleting McBride’s' comment and his self-promotion link from Horace's page. His wife's name was Barbara Dove and it was changed over 40 years ago. You can find info about her at <redacted>.

How ignorant and unprofessional to make the comment. Barbara Jean Dove is not notable in her own right! Do your research! Instead of trying to research Horace’s medical history!

Jemela Mwelu

---

— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 21:10, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

I don't think there's much that can be done. She doesn't like some information on the page because she thinks it unnecessary and in some way disrespectful. It's necessary to explain some periods of his life to the reader who would otherwise be left wondering and, insensitive as it may appear to some close to the subject, it's not our place to attempt to censor such things when the information is available. Finally, and a little unkindly, I point out that, if you follow the link I posted above to the article in her name, you'll see that she discusses HS's back injury and various other medical problems in far more detail than this WP article does. EddieHugh (talk) 23:47, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

EddieHugh seeing as how it's unreliable, I saw no point, but now I understand why you would send me there. I'll let you deal with the person if she comes back.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 14:54, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

I got another email which may very well be the last one. I haven't asked her permission to repost it, so I won't since people have indicated they gave permission. Essentially, she is going to consult attorneys to see if the entire page can go. I know enough about how things work to know it can't be done (if she reads this, a notable person will have an article as long as the information is reliable, but I won't be replying to her. She also misunderstands Wikipedia in another way, describing the article as a "so called tribute page". I have seen this explained and know Wikipedia doesn't do that.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 21:56, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

That's a great shame. But thank you for putting us all in the picture. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:22, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

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