Talk:Holsteiner

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More notes to self: Holsteiners are only *permitted* in black, brown, bay, chestnut, and grey. All others are denied registration, as are horses with any form of mottling (excluding fleabitten greys of course) or spots larger than a dinner plate. Furthermore, chestnuts are "frowned upon." Further-furthermore, Holsteiner dressage horses happen more or less by accident. The registry and its breeders do not select for dressage ability. The tone is Anglicized at times. Countercanter (talk) 13:53, 21 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

But...[edit]

They make "great" jumpers. 86.145.133.105 (talk) 19:19, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Links for the ambitious[edit]

Anyone wishing to improve this article may find the following links helpful:

1. WBFSH Interstallion survey [1] data concerning populations, goals, and procedures.

2. WBFSH Dressage Rankings 2007 [2] #8 thanks to Cockney 7 (Caretino), Lanzaro (Lavall I), Ackeley (Alcatraz), Look Who's Here (Landgraf), Amicelli (Amigo), Arzberg (Accord)

3. WBFSH Eventing Rankings 2007 [3] #7 thanks to Sinjang (Sir Shostakov xx), Showtime (Sir Shostakov xx), Marius Voigt-Logistik (Condrieu xx), ADM. V. Schneider (Sir Shostakov xx), King Artus (King Milford xx), Calypso Sun (Sun Boulevard xx?)

4. WBFSH Jumping Rankings 2007 [4] #4 thanks to Coester (Calato), Cristallo (Caretino), Cartier PSG (Cantus), Corlato (Corofino), Leonardo B (Loran), Conan (Concerto II)

5. American Holsteiner Horse Association [5] Good source, lots of information. Especially important are the regulations for breeding [6] Please be sure to read the "Konzept AHHA" [7] page.

6. Holsteiner Verband [8] Not as substantial a source but there is information.

7. IMH page [9] Synthesized, secondary source, but an easy read.

Countercanter (talk) 01:24, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Should article be moved/renamed?[edit]

Given that Holsteiner is a more correct form than Holstein horse (am I correct?) should the article be moved to become Holsteiner (horse)? I kind of think this may have been done in the past, we'd have to check the history. Is there a consensus between the various registries on spelling? Montanabw^(talk) 00:43, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely seconded. I have no clue where "Holstein horse" came from. American Holsteiner Horse Association, daughter association of Holsteiner Verband. A "Holstein" - pronounced Hole-STEEN - is a cow from the same region. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Countercanter (talk • contribs) 15:21, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Go for it. Remember to use the "move" tab at the top of the page so the edit history and talk page move with it. If you need help, holler, or ask any admin (I really screwed up the first couple of articles I moved but they were able to un-screw them back for me!). Oh, and then correct the link at List of horse breeds too. Also check the "what links here" thing to see if there are more links to fix (probably shouldn't be more than 6-8, I would hope, probably can fix by hand). Montanabw^(talk) 04:02, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, so we are three days later. I'll move. But can you do the link check? (smiles) Montanabw^(talk) 21:03, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rework[edit]

Started with the breed history. Please wikilink as you see fit. Pictures forthcoming. I believe this will be the article I put forward for GA. Countercanter (talk) 18:00, 18 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sort of having a crisis in other articles right now. See recent history of Equidae, and the flip to Equus (genus) and then the ongoing, unending nightmare that is the Horses in warfare FA push. All of the above meaning that you may have to take a number and wait in line, but I'll do what I can as I can! Drop a line to User:Josette, who is a wikiproject equine person and knows warmbloods. She is an editor who may not be as busy and stressed out as I am! Dana and Ealdgyth, as always, are good to comment too, though they are tangled in some of the same messes I'm in. Montanabw^(talk) 05:12, 19 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

More rework[edit]

In the second paragraph, I'm trying to communicate that Holsteiners are unusual among warmbloods and especially among German warmbloods in that the studbook is only very slightly open. Except for a FEW Thoroughbred mares, the breeders and the association are very protective of the female families and do not introduce new female familes/stamms. Furthermore, only a few outside stallions are used, and they are actively sought out. This is NOT the case in most warmbloods. People love to discuss Holsteiner breeding so if the present sources are insufficient, I will dredge up more. If anyone wants to contribute to improving that paragraph, have at it.

I think I'm running into many of the problems common to horse articles: there is SO much jargon. How am I supposed to make meaningful statements about the qualities of the gaits when the words, even to horse people, only evoke a "feeling" or connotation? For example, MontanaBW asked what was meant by "articulation"...she's a horse person! Now, the term is used in the same sense that it is in engineering and biomechanics/physiology (pivoting joints) but if even a horse person trips over it and thinks I've mistaken it for the word "active" then...bah!

Some things that I also wish to communicate, but am struggling to do, are that the horses we today recognize as Oldenburgs, Holsteiners, Friesians, and Groningens have the same roots because of the strong ties between the cultures that bred them. They were all bred by coastal Frisian peoples for the same purposes.

Well, now there's a barn emergency so I'm off! Countercanter (talk) 14:36, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I feel for your frustration. Ealdgyth even gave up saying "sire" and "dam" in some of the horse articles, or at least saying "sire, the father" and "dam, the mother." One thought: I talked to a salesman for the World Book Encyclopedias at a teacher's conference one time, and he explained how they structured their articles. They figured that the younger the child, the less they would read, so they put the information of most interest to a second-grader early in the article, and the information most likely to only be used by teenagers and adults later in the article. Maybe that idea will help. (i.e. the old standby K.I.S.S.) Start with the really basic stuff that a pony clubber with a school report to write or a casual person asking the question "so what is a Holsteiner and aren't these "warmbloods" all basically the same kind of horse?" wants to know. Then from there, get complicated! By the way, the sentence about Oldenburgs, etc, is actually close to being an EXCELLENT introductory sentence for some part of the article! And hang in there. It took me probably six months to get Arabian horse to GA! (After the first one, it gets easier. Got Equine nutrition there in about two weeks) Montanabw^(talk) 05:38, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there! Montana dropped me a note that you were working on this article for GA status, and I thought I'd pop my head in and see how you were doing. I see that you're still working on your initial rewrite and sources, so I didn't do a full read-through of the article, but from the skim I did do it looks like you're definitely heading in the right direction! Very nice work so far. One comment I have at this point is to make sure that you include access dates on your web references. Please feel free to drop me a note if there's anything you would like help with, and I'll probably pop back in here from time to time to drop comments. If you want me to just go away and leave you to work on your article in peace, then feel free to tell me that too :) Dana boomer (talk) 20:19, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Photo gallery[edit]

Caracas 49 is an int'l jumper under K. Babington. He is registered with the KWPN but his pedigree is all Holsteiner and is very much Holsteiner type.
Gray Holsteiner (mare?) grazing. Filler photo.
Rodrigo Pessoa and Coeur at the Vegas World Cup.
Well, it's on German Wikipedia.

Well, it's on German Wikipedia.
Unusual dressage-oriented Holsteiner. Stallion at Neustadt-Dosse, so he sires for Mecklenburg.
Statue of Landgraf, influential sire, outside the verband's stud farm.
1898 lithograph of a Holsteiner. Note docked tail, high-set crested neck, powerful shoulder and hindquarters and otherwise driving-suitable conformation. Also note roman nose and plain bay color.
Sculpture of the Holsteiner jumper, Meteor, which stands in Kiel, the Schleswig-Holstein capital.
Graphic-style brand.
Cristallo by Caletto II, an int'l jumper, at the Vegas World Cup.
Live brand.
Horse-trolley in Uetersen, 19th century.
This painting was cited in an article on Holsteiner history.

Countercanter (talk) 14:10, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestions welcome![edit]

First, thanks to those of you who have come through and browsed even a little bit. It's really helpful. I'm excited about this article because everyone and their mother has an opinion about Holsteiners, they have a rich and well-recorded history, and so there's just so much to discuss! I have a few problems I want to address.

The "Uses" section will need to be broken down, I believe. I hate to just list horses the way I have for rankings and whatnot. I was thinking that turning

Furthermore, the 2008 WBFSH rankings of top 30 sires of show jumpers were dominated by Holsteiners: #6 Caretino, #8 Libero H, #11 Cassini, #13 Calido, #17 Carthago, #18 Contender, #19 Corrado I, #20 Calvados, #28 Corland, #29 Acord II.

would be better as

Furthermore, nearly half of the World Breeding Federation for Sport Horses top 30 sires of show jumpers were Holsteiners, including Landgraf I sons Burggraaf (7) and Libero H (8); Acord II; Capitano sons Indoctro (9), Cassini (11), and Carthago (17); and a slew of Cor de la Bryere descendants: Caretino (6), Calido (13), Contender (18), Corland (28), and Corrado I (19) and his own son, Indorado (14).

There may be better ways to do this. The prominent sires and Olympians probably need their own articles. Countercanter (talk) 16:31, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

IMHO, unless you are dealing with a small and well-agreed upon population that doesn't change over time, there is something to be said for not including much at all on specific living horses. I personally tend to avoid naming names of anything other than foundation bloodstock and maybe some exceedingly famous individuals (aka maybe a horse that has won multiple Olympic gold medals, or one holding a world record, or a horse TV star, or something otherwise significant in the overall horse world, not just among breed aficionados) - and on the "famous horses" thing, once you are past three or four, there are too many, IMHO! Here, I would just do your sentences about how nearly half of the top 30 are Holsteiners, omit names, and footnote the source, preferably to a home page that will automatically update each year so we don't have to go in and manually keep fixing it all the time. Take a look at Appaloosa, which is GA and names a few horses. It may give you some ideas. Montanabw^(talk)

To-do...[edit]

Terms to define... Approved - standardize vs. licensed Type Good Balance Elegant Movement Active Gaits High-Headed Jump Supple Jump Bascule Aesthetic appeal - re: conf, marketability Foal inspections Outside the main registry, purpose? Life number Round strides Generous strides Elasticity Impulsion Natural balance Articulation of the joints Balanced, dynamic canter - link to gaits with descriptive terms defined Jumping power Jumping scope Correct technique, jumping - link to horse jumping with descriptive terms defined Careful jumping Speed - jumping Tact - jumping Adjustability - jumping Horse temperament intro Uncomplicated temperament Bold, sensitive temperament Rideability Prussian Stud Administration?

Discuss Elmshorn Riding & Driving School, Elite Mare Show, Neumunster stallion licensing Wikilink/articles for State Studs —Preceding unsigned comment added by Countercanter (talk • contribs) 14:17, 2 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

May not need all here, some of this may belong in the show jumping article, too. (That article has long needed some attention, by the way). See also canter, horse gait, and lead change (all of which also need help) plus the temperament section of horse and horse behavior. Montanabw^(talk) 22:33, 2 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Page name[edit]

This page should be at Holsteiner, which is what we call these horses in English and which is currently a redirect here. Unless anyone suggests otherwise I'll probably move it in a day or so. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 14:06, 31 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I am inclined to agree with the principle, but have a couple possible caveats: I am mildly concerned that Holstein Friesian cattle, called Holstein cattle or simply "Holsteins" in the USA (and they are a very, very common dairy breed here) could be grounds for some confusion. Holstein is the place, Holsteiner the horse, IMHO, but maybe that's just me. We do have a lot of other stand-alone names without "horse" appended amongst the various German warmbloods, I think "horse" is pretty much added when the humans already claimed the tag, e.g. Hanoverian/Hanoverian horse, Westphalian, Westphalian horse, etc. I guess my only other question is the potential for trouble with those who don't like the breeds named Foo-er and prefer Foo. e.g Holstein/Holsteiner, Oldenburg/Oldenburger, Lipizzan/Lipizzaner, etc... I personally prefer the "er" variant (as horses are not a place) but I don't know my German ethnicity grammar well enough to have a fully informed opinion. Your thoughts? Montanabw ^(talk) 04:50, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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