Talk:Heinz Barth

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Sources[edit]

Comment by User:Rama - le monde article claims that Barth assumed a fake identity,in contradiction with Michael Williams

Caution might be advisable with some sources. For instance Le Monde has been running a story of AFP [1] which claims that Barth assumed a fake identity and went into hiding; this is in contradiction with Michael Williams' website, which is very detailed and seems serious. Rama 16:39, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Also, all the stories which mention a fake endentity seem to stem from the original AFP story. Whether correct or not, I think that we're witnessing how mainstream press works. Rama 16:57, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have taken the liberty to write to Michael Williams, who confirms that Barth did live under his real name before 1981. He cites a French book named Oradour-sur-Glane, a vision of Horror, and press articles from the time of the trial. Rama 18:10, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
reply by User:Tazmaniacs - cite both versions
Sorry, I've reversed your move before reading your message. I'm not sure how reliable Williams' website can be considered, and have a tendency to trust more the AFP than an unknown website. Who is Michael Williams? If you did write to Williams (nice job!), can these precise references be inserted in the article? Whatever the case, if the Williams reference concerning this is to be maintained, I think that the Wikipedia article should provide both versions, giving the source of each. How come press articles of 1983 pointed out that, and now the AFP doesn't? Finally, who is the author of Oradour-sur-Glane, a vision of Horror? Again, nice job in checking out sources! Tazmaniacs 19:06, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
For all I know, Michael Williams is a retired employee of the UK General Post Office, and amateur historian [2]. I don't think we should prefer an amateur historian's website over the AFP. However, if he did provide other sources, we can surely check those ones! Tazmaniacs 19:11, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If you are up to it, I think the best thing to do is to contact http://www.oradour.org/index.php?rubrique=137. Tazmaniacs 19:20, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
reply by User:Rama
The AFP is composed of "professional journalists", that is people who are paid to produce volume of written text. They will do so at the optimally lowest quality at which people still buy their stories (like all journalists). So between an unqualified amateur who really loves the subject, and a "professional" (of what ?) who couldn't care less and must botch his paper within a fixed time, I don't think that the preference is as easy to attribute as you seem to suggest.
Have you noticed how the very numerous publications on Barth today are mainly copy-paste of the same two stories ? Rama 19:47, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I quote Williams' site: Oradour-sur-Glane, a vision of Horror, By: Guy Pauchou & Dr. Pierre Masfrand. Published by: The Remembrance Committee and the National Association of the Families of the Martyrs of Oradour-sur-Glane. No ISBN code. Available from the Centre de la Mémoire in Oradour. There is a French version, Oradour-Sur-Glane. Vision D'Épouvante
I am sending a mail to the oradour.org, let's see how it turns out. Rama 19:58, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by User:Carabinieri - Was Barth granted the pension in 1991 or 1992?

There is another problem. Le Monde claims he was granted the pension in 1991, while L'Humanité gives 1992 as the year. Which is correct? Unaware of the L'Humanité article, I changed it to 1991. But if 1992 is correct this should be changed back.--Carabinieri 03:46, 15 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, the German weekly Spiegel also claims, Barth started receiving the pension in 1991, as does Der Tagesspiegel.--Carabinieri 03:53, 15 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion between User: Rama and User:Tazmaniacs - Is mainstream press reliable?
Hurray for "professional journalists". Rama 08:26, 15 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have recieved an answer to my enquiry to Le Monde: they say that their story was copy-pasted from AFP, and that AP says so too. With a strong implication that when the day comes that AFP states that black is white, Le Monde will be first to tell us. Rama 08:39, 15 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Rama, please don't turn this case into a trial of "mainstream press". Glad that you are aware that Le Monde basically copy-pastes AFP cables, as the NYT probably copy-pastes Reuters cables. This doesn't means AFP journalists are sloppy — although no one can be sure he will never make any mistake. Again, a source from a "professional historian" would surely be legitimate enough against a source from a media, whatever it is; but "amateurs historians" are not — lest you expose yourselves to much larger mistakes in the future. Williams' might actually be right. But we have nothing to prove it. Tazmaniacs 12:28, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Lidice etc.[edit]

I fixed the information about Barth in Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia in 1942. There's no mention (outside WP) he participated on liquidation of Lidice. Acc. a Czech historian he, however, was in the unit that executed people from Ležáky (another Czech village). Pavel Vozenilek 20:09, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As a matter of fact, there is: AFP again. Not that I value their information much. Rama 21:41, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Where does the info about Klatovy and Pardubice come from? Neither from the IHT nor from the Monde (AFP)... Tazmaniacs 14:07, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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