Talk:Hazaragi dialect/Archive 1

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Archive 1

How the article is disputed

The article is tagged to disputed, what is the problem with the article that User: Tajik did that??? please give the reference.Nurbandma (talk) 15:37, 8 October 2009 (UTC)


I think there is a bias towards mongolian root. I can find more English words in Hazaragi than mongolian. take motor, burlding, gear, bycicle, plastic, bank, computer and ... do these also prove that hazaragi has been originaly English?

look at the names in Hazarajat. the absolute majority are persian: malistan, angoori, yakawlang, shahristan, sarab and ....

please do not push your ideas over other's. let the truth be known. your pushing just make things worse. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.204.246.158 (talk) 03:46, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Total speakers

How can anyone state a number as accurate as "9,209,794" for the total speakers of a language??? 95.35.152.46 (talk) 11:36, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

I would say 4-5m is more accurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.204.232.240 (talk) 03:51, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

The issue of the total speakers has been resolved with reference. Bororiwala (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:51, 6 October 2010 (UTC).

Mongolian

Has anyone got the source for those mongolian cognates? My mongol is limited but I have learned цээж for "chest" and гэргий/эхнэр for "wife", not khatu and chehin. Is it possible that the mongol examples aren't glossed properly, because khatu reminds me of хатан "lady"? Akerbeltz (talk) 16:59, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm glad to see someone who has leant some Mongolian! To the point: 'chest' IS цээж, the Mongolian word given was that for 'ear'. Could you please check the Hazaragi word if it also means 'ear'? I fancy that someone just skipped a line when using a word list for body parts. The rest is okay. The word in question is of course хатан 'queen, lady', but it can (could) be used as a honorative term of address for one's wife. There is generally an abundance in words for 'wife' in different varieties of Mongolian, including words like avgai and büsgüi as well. Would you adapt the article on Hazara people accordingly? G Purevdorj (talk) 18:51, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
LOL I may eventually even get there! Many thanks for checking this, I can't speak for the Hazaragi but I'll amend the other page accordingly. Akerbeltz (talk) 19:34, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


I am a hazara and I have never heard hazara say chehin to chest or ear. chest is Sina and ear is Gosh in hazaragi. also, khatu or khatun is not limited to hazaras. it has been and is used widely by farsi speakers and means lady or Ms.(Hazara people do use the word Chatin for chest. But I believe that one should not conclude anything based on a few words. Urdu langauage spoken in Pakistan is also mixed with many Farsi words. My point is that it does not prove much.)

bola is also used all over Afghanistan by not only farsi speakers but uzbeks, turkmans and some other people.

I also note that in bringing the samples, there is a heavy reliance on Quetta Hazaragi which is not necessarily a reprsentative variety of the wider hazaragi accent. for example in most of Hazarajat, people will say: مه بچه آزره ایم ma bache azara im. astom is usualy used by Dari speakers and in Quetta.

I can say that despite all claims, the words with obvious mongolian roots are very very limited and few in numbers in Hazaragi. most of these words are shared by other farsi or Dari spkeakers and even Pashtu spkeakers as the mongolian influence is obvious in Iran, Afghanistan and central Asia. Bola, Khatun, Khan, Qol ( urdo ) and etc are used all over Afghanistan. there is a rule where in hazaragi we drop the last N sound and replace the A with and O or U. for example Urozgan = Urozgo, Khatun = Khatu, Talkhan, Talkho.

the number of Turkic words in Iranian Farsi is far greater than in Hazaragi as Iran has a larger Turkic speaker Population. take for example Kibrit = matches and Zoghal = charcol or Angisht and Dayee = uncle, Dadash = brother, Obji = sister and etc.

there is also some Pashtu influence on Hazargi which is not mentioned here. for example Takh bel which means working woth showel on the land. Dabi or Dablai which means can. Ada which means Terminal and etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.204.232.240 (talk) 03:41, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

How does the word qatun - a variant of the Sogdian royal title Khatun - prove a similarity between Hazaragi and Mongolian?! The word was already in use in the region way before the arrival of the Mongols. Tajik (talk) 21:13, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
I have explained the existence of Mongolian and Turkic languages in Hazaragi with references. Please refer to the references provided or refer to the research I have upload, research was by University of Karachi, Pakistan 1976. I have also removed the incorrect examples provided as Mongolian and Turkic. I am working on it to provide a list of few common Mongolian and Turkic words used in Hazaragi. Bororiwala (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:00, 6 October 2010 (UTC).

The Tags should be removed

The tags like disputed and accuracy issues should be removed from the article now because enough references and information have been provided. Bororiwala (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:02, 6 October 2010 (UTC).

Adding {tone} and {copyedit} tags

Some good refs have been added, and the totally unsourced (and likely OR) comparative table has been removed, but there's still an non-academic laudatory tone to many sections ("and left brilliant traces and memories", etc), and some poor proofreading (missing spaces, non-native phrasings, etc). I can go work on a few of them, but the article still needs cleanup. MatthewVanitas (talk) 14:25, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Did some major proofreading up to about halfway through the article. It has a huge issue with over-linking; per WP custom, you wikilink the first time a term appears. So the article as it stands, with Hazara, Afghanistan, Islam, etc. linked all the way through the paper needs to be fixed. Removed some of the overly melodramatic tone, removed a few empty/puffery/abstract assertions. Put in a lot of {which}/{when}/{who} tags, as in a lot of sentences it's clear to the writer what people/place/time he's talking about, but the reader is left to guess. I'll try to come and clean up more later, but prior to my cleanup there's no way this article should be left untagged. MatthewVanitas (talk) 14:47, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
Did more cleanup and chopping; article was terribly redundant and repetitive. It seemed every single repetition of "Hazarajat" as wikilinked and followed by "(Central Afghanistan)", every single time. So fixed those, re-ordered some things for flow, joined some sections. The main problem I see, at this point, is that the History section seems rather WP:OR. It states there's controversy over whether the original Hazara language was Mongol, and then the rest of the article seems to proceed with that assumption. Further, rather than quote academic sources on "how the Hazaras stopped speaking Mongol", it focuses instead on how Mongols mixed with Persians, with no real link to Hazara issues. Implying a link between those trends without an actual source making them explicit is definitely "Original Research" and should be removed if the sources don't back up that history. MatthewVanitas (talk) 15:51, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
Yes, it certainly needed that. Since you seem to be more au fait with the subject than me, you might want to take a look at the content that was removed by Boriwala (check [1] and earlier), there's some language data that I feel deserves being kept but I didn't want another argument on my hands when (s)he started ... editing. Akerbeltz (talk) 16:53, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Babar was a descendant of Temurlang {Tamerlane}and as such was a Turk/Tartar and not Mongol. Temur's mother was Mongol and father of Tartar origin thus making Babar a non-Mughal. Secondly, the article also says that during Babar's time Hazara people spoke Mongol tongue - this is incorrect. Moarrikh (talk) 02:57, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Hazaragi language VS Hazaragi dialect

Dear Kwamikagami

The page was move to Hazaragi dialect without a chat, would you please care to explain why was this moved? Hazara Birar (Talk) 11:07, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

As the article states, because it's a dialect of Persian. Or at least it is according to our Persian article, and also to Windfuhr & Perry (2009). — kwami (talk) 14:10, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
I agree that it is a dialect of Persian but it has been already recognized as a language (Ethnologue and SIL). Instead of calling it a dialect don't you think it should be "language"?Hazara Birar (Talk) 06:56, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
If it's a dialect, it's a dialect. SIL is not a reliable source, though we can check their sources. — kwami (talk) 23:35, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
Not sure why you think they're unreliable, they actually do mutual intelligibility testing in many cases. (I don't know whether they did in this case.) Often what you find is that speakers of the minority language understand the majority language well (because they're exposed to it in media, school etc.), but the majority language speakers don't understand the minority language. That's sufficient to demonstrate that the two are separate languages (*mutual* intelligibility).
I don't know what the truth is in this case, but be careful of the opposite tendency on the part of many other organizations (or individuals) of using the term "dialect" as a disparaging way to refer to any minority language ("It's not a real language, it's just a dialect."). Mcswell (talk) 16:40, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

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Please pay attention

Please see the source[2] It is about Persian and Turkish Loans in the Arabic Dialects of North Eastern Arabia.--Muhmmadaht (talk) 07:40, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

So what? You don't know that the source might still mention something about Hazaragi. --HistoryofIran (talk) 11:06, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

Dear User, give a reason for this to be acceptable.--Muhmmadaht (talk) 14:25, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

What is that supposed to mean? Because the title of the source doesn't mention anything about Hazaragi it should be removed? Or because you want to once again remove any mention of foreign influences on the Hazara? --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:31, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
Dear @HistoryofIran: Reason for reverting my edits. Not only the title of the article but also its contents are not about Hazaragi.--Muhmmadaht (talk) 15:52, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
We will see whether you're telling the truth or not in a bit [3] --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:55, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
The chapter is visible on Google Books (at least from my location), and I can't see anything about Hazaragi in it either. @GanjDareh4: can you explain this edit[4]? –Austronesier (talk) 17:03, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
I only had access to a few pages in that chapter. Thanks for clearing it up. --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:05, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

@Muhmmadaht and HistoryofIran: is this resolved? Pious Brother (talk) 07:36, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

@Pious Brother:Yes. Thank You!--Muhmmadaht (talk) 14:21, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
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