Talk:Harrison Birtwistle

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Untitled[edit]

There is not mention of the influence of Eric Saties apparently when he heard Satie's (1888) Gymnopedies and realised that they could be played in any order... He described the experience as enabling a profound shift in this thinking on how it was possible to compose music. Is this recorded in any interview? Szczels (talk) 16:03, 13 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Importance[edit]

Birtwistle is of less importance than Nyman? How was that result derived -- from relative sales? -- Hoary (talk) 06:38, 30 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nyman is no slouch (just a different style), but Birtwistle is undoubtedly one of the very top world composers, and one of the two top UK composers. Badagnani (talk) 06:56, 30 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Probably just sour grapes about Nyman: when at Modena over a decade ago, we noticed that he had a concert coming up and, because his stuff burbled along pleasantly enough to the Greenaway films, bought tickets. He noodled on the piano, he noodled more on the piano, he noodled more on the piano. It was all very tonal and without even minuscule surprise or challenge, the sort of thing any decent pianist could do to kill time. The others in the audience (heavy on ponytails and designer stubble) appeared to be in rapt admiration. For the two of us it was an opportunity to examine the floodlit exterior of the (excellent) neighboring duomo. But we gave up and walked out early. If Birtwistle is Rodenbach then this Nyman was Miller Lite (I never bothered to hear any thereafter). I missed Punch and Judy in London last week; pity. -- Hoary (talk) 07:24, 30 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I like Punch and Judy AND Nyman equally (though you're right, there's no comparison between Rodenbach and Miller Lite ;). Like Glass and Reich, some of Nyman's works (notably the earlier ones) are better than others. Badagnani (talk) 06:01, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Composer project review[edit]

I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This article is barely Start-class; it contains only the barest sketch of the subject's life (in spite of having sources that presumably contain more information). More of my review is on the comments page; questions and comments should be left here or on my talk page. Magic♪piano 14:31, 21 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There's a mass of material, (most of it not used here) biogrpahical and otherwise, about Birtwistle on the Boosey and Hawkes website, including a a very informative timeline which dries up in 2004, or appears to, Even so, there are gaps. Birtwistle's "Tree of Strings" according to the composer, relates to his residence on Raasay, where he knew the great Gaelic poet, Sorley Maclean, a native of the island. There's no mention of it. What is clear is that he spent a good deal of time in the US, starting at Princeton at the end of the 60s, study there which he seems to have financed by selling his clarinets. The material about his view of his compositions as analagous to walking randomly round the streets of a town is from a BBC Radio 3 interview, not long ago. Delahays (talk) 16:39, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Full name[edit]

Is it "Sir Harrison Birtwistle" (Wi-en) or "Sir Harrison Paul Birtwistle, CH" (Wi-de)? If we stick with the first form (leaving out CH in the first line) but his middle name is verifiably Paul, shouldn't this be mentioned in the article, as is (... used to be) typical of Wikipedia biography articles? Schissel | Sound the Note! 04:28, 21 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Oxford Dictionary of Music (1997 reprint), which I happen to have to hand, calls him "Birtwistle, (Sir) Harrison (Paul)". I agree that for consistency with other biographical articles we should include the middle name. --Deskford (talk) 11:25, 21 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Assessment comment[edit]

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Harrison Birtwistle/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)Press [show] to view →
==Composers Project Assessment of Harrison Birtwistle: 2009-01-21==

This is an assessment of article Harrison Birtwistle by a member of the Composers project, according to its assessment criteria. This review was done by Magicpiano.

If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down.

Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards (WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status.

===Origins/family background/studies=== Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described?

  • Sketchy.

===Early career=== Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed?

  • Sketchy.

===Mature career=== Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed?

  • Sketchy.

===List(s) of works=== Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article.

  • Good.

===Critical appreciation=== Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)?

  • Good.

===Illustrations and sound clips=== Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.)

  • A publicity still would be an improvement.

===References, sources and bibliography=== Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references?

  • Article has dedicated references; no inline citations. External links in the main body.

===Structure and compliance with WP:MOS=== Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.)

  • Article is tagged for stylistic issues; concur. Lead is overly short.

===Things that may be necessary to pass a Good Article review===

  • Article needs more content to be considered for GA

===Summary===

This article is not B-class; it is a Start-level biography. It contains a very minimal sketch of the subject's life. Magic♪piano 14:27, 21 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Last edited at 09:43, 3 August 2010 (UTC). Substituted at 17:11, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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Infobox[edit]

I added an infobox, as for other articles that I expand. What do others think? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:25, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please see WP:WikiProject Composers#Biographical infoboxes. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 16:27, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Seen. Dated 2010. I don't live by that. Please see discussions at Beethoven (2015) and Sibelius (2021). Composers are also persons. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:43, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support Infobox as designed by Gerda. TheScrubby (talk) 10:01, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support Infobox per Gerda. Grimes2 (talk) 10:04, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
An IP added just dates. I was mildly bold and added the Beethoven concise version (before I saw the support).
Oppose Infobox per WP:WikiProject Composers#Lead section, in particular Wikipedia:WikiProject Composers#Biographical infoboxes. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 13:29, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That guideline is dated 2010. What do you think of this Signpost entry (2013)? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:54, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The guideline still stands and I still agree with it. Not every biographical article has to have an infobox. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 00:04, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I’m well aware of the gatekeeping by a vocal minority of users over the years who, especially for classical musicians and theatre actors, have opposed infoboxes not because the subjects aren’t worthy, but on ideological grounds against infoboxes as a whole. Never mind that infoboxes have very much become the norm here and that regular users and IPs would find it bizarre if there was no infobox for a biographical page. Hopefully this will not also get bogged down in any long-winded debate (which as we all know, really has nothing to do with Sir Harrison Birtwistle) and that we can just get this done and move on already. TheScrubby (talk) 00:07, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The guideline still stands, and still treats composers as somehow different from mankind by one project, as if this person was not also a father, and a clarinetist. Nobody needs another argument. Readers all over the world, coming from languages where he may not be covered, may want to know now (or yesterday) where this person died, and may have a hard time finding it in the prose. - I am sorry to not be able to help them, but it's no a real problem. Prayer for Ukraine. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:22, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@TheScrubby and Gerda Arendt: I think it would be a good idea to hold a WP:RFC at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Composers regarding this issue. Personally, I usually don't mind infoboxes but I like the minimalism of just having a large thumbnail, preferably with a JPEG of the subject's signature directly beneath. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 17:07, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I am involved, - someone uninvolved should do that, - how about yourself? I gave up on project composers in 2016, with the Pierre Boulez discussion, - it just hurt too much. See also: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Composers/Archive 38#A Statistical Note on Infoboxes - My understanding: these discussions don't clarify but deepen the lines of battle. I leave articles alone where I know the preference is just an image (Richard Wagner, Gustav Holst ...), but Birtwistle was not one of them. I add infoboxes to articles to which I contribute, and Birtwistle is one of them. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:30, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

next question[edit]

Should the infobox contain education, children, awards? (I made the pic smaller on this talk.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:54, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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