Talk:Grindcore/Archive 3

Dillinger Escape Plan and grind

Yeah, I know it's *possible* to research my past activities, my question is why? This discussion has resolved around me and what you perceive to be my character flaws, and as Musicaindustrial pointed out, that's simply ad hominem and beside the point. Your mention of my nomination to merge metalcore into deathcore is along these lines -- yeah, I made that suggestion, and apparently it offended you. Can we talk less about me and more about the actual topics of these pages? As for your other point: Have you read the sentence in question? "Contemporary mathcore groups, such as Dillinger Escape Plan, have also been associated with grind." So, fine, they can be a mixture of post-hardcore and grind or a mixture of math rock and grind or whatever else various commentators have mentioned, but the *association* with grindcore is what's relevant to this page. And yeah, whatever, Relapse is a more prestigious label than Epitaph. Epitaph is still an entirely reliable source in discussing the character of bands they promote. Aryder779 (talk) 14:09, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

There's no research involved. Its clicking your talk page. Which you've also done regarding me so I'm wondering why you even bother acting as if someone raided your CIA dossier. And DEP have never been associated with grindcore, is the issue. Ever. They have more in relation to Mr.Bungle and Earth Crisis than they have anything to do with grind. I understand that its not an outright claim, but to even say "have been associated with" is incorrect as that statement has probably only been uttered by people who don't know what grind sounds like. And again, refrain from thinking this is all qualitative. Relapse is a traditionally grind/death metal label that happens to house a few doom and mathcore bands while Epitaph is just an umbrella label that carried one of their EP's. DEP is not an Epitaph band, and their sales pitch is horribly misinformed. Logically, I would try quoting their current label of 5 years which do carry descriptions of all the music they carry and bands on the roster, than the home of Bad Religion. Then again, I try to be accurate. DEP is in no way relevant to this article. How about we discuss how to expand the coverage of actual grind and bands actually influenced by grind in the article rather than grasping for straws and making POV additions?
And its not being offended, its recognizing that its suspect for someone to try and snuff a wikipedia article out of existence immediately after being called out on abstract and incorrect additions to this article that at best could be described as the pov of a small minority of fans and not established ideas. All of these discussions center around the article, it just so happens that recent edits were made by you, and they're terrible, so opinions are being voiced. Constantly claiming "ad hominem attacks" are for the lazy who can't bother debating their own point or in this case, assertions brought against them involving questionable personal opinion and investment into these edits. And you might want to stop your tea party to review your own judgments of character against your critics.
Goregrind looks promising and only needs to have some more history and bands added to it to be adequately fleshed out. Though scant, there's enough details to easily and quickly bring it up to snuff. And how's metalcore going, by the way?Karen_Carpentry (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 15:58, 17 September 2008 (UTC).

The assessment of the failings of Epitaph Records' promotional material is your opinion, as are statements made about the "parameters" of grindcore and who does or does not know what grind sounds like. You are not a published source. WP:NOR renders this discussion pointless. Aryder779 (talk) 16:51, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Will the good sir from Rhode Island please actually read my comments and not blithely skim them? It'd behoove him to actual recognize and comprehend the text you are answering, a-thank-you. I shall refrain from quipping the gentle quail from Providence until he/she accurately responds to said text with a sense of comprehension and blithe interpretation. Also the sourcing on your perceived influence on screamo and mathcore are highly suspect and paper thin. You might as well cite blogs, then, considering none of your sources holds water. Karen_Carpentry (talk) 07:41, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Anyone can see that the sources supporting the statement deleted in the last edit ("Contemporary mathcore groups, such as Dillinger Escape Plan, have also been associated with grind") are all valid secondary sources. [1] [2] [3] [4] Any further deletion of this statement, or any other information on this page similarly supported by one or more verifiable sources, can only be seen as disruptive editing. Aryder779 (talk) 21:49, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

"If your viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts...If your viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents"
You're one of a very scant few people pushing this notion, and the only figure in your sources that could be viewed as a trustworthy inside opinion, Barney Greenway, refers to them as noisecore and not once as grind. Therefore these edits constitute pushing your own POV over accepted fact, truth, belief, etcetera, etcetera. To be disruptive would imply you're adding something of note or value, which I've yet to see. Since you're adept and skimming Decibel, try and find one single article that implies Dillinger or any of those screamo/emo violence bands are grind, grind-based, or derived from grind. Considering blast beats predate grind, and that is the only musical aspect in common with your erroneous assertions, you might as well argue that screamo is derived from fastcore and alternative rock. And considering general music sites like AllMusic frequently refer to black metal as "Scandinavian Death Metal" in some pieces, that is also in no way reputable considering the subject. My interest is in maintaing some factual accuracy in this article, no expanding it to fit my own woefully unfounded and uninformed ideas. Not saying you per se. A hypothetically person. Surely.Karen_Carpentry (talk) 01:42, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

(I've created a new section, for purposes of readability and focus; I hope no one minds).

First: What you're calling a "trustworthy inside opinion" is what Wikipedia calls a primary source. Barney Greenway's belief that Dillinger Escape Plan and other "noisecore" groups borrow from Napalm Death's '90s material is a primary source (because he was one of the creators of that material), substantiated by a secondary source (the article I cite that includes his comments). Wikipedia does not primarily deal with primary sources; rather, it draws information from secondary sources, which "draw on primary sources and other secondary sources to create a general overview; or to make analytic or synthetic claims". This describes the other three sources I've cited. Now, it's true that Greenway does not say that Dillinger Escape Plan is a grindcore band; he says they're a noisecore band that borrows from grindcore. This is why I didn't insert anything about DEP into the "1990s" subsection of the "History". This sentence is in the "Legacy" section, which deals other musicians who are not grindcore (Andrew W.K., Naked City, Panacea, Merzbow, etc.), but who have some debt or relationship to the style. Which is exactly what Greenway indicates. The other three sources -- which, again, are perfectly viable secondary sources, not blogs, not Myspace pages, not tertiary sources -- support this claim. The Epitaph source is also quite strong, because it's an official description of one of DEP's releases (Irony Is a Dead Scene). I doubt that DEP's management would allow one of their labels to distribute information that the band considered misleading. These four sources are at the very least "prominent adherents", if not "commonly accepted reference texts". Your claim here seems to be that Decibel and only Decibel is an acceptable source, and this seems like an unusual criterion, partly because not all their content is available online. If you had a reliable source that said something to the effect of "Some people think that DEP takes some influence from grindcore, but this is false, and here's why", then you would at least have grounds for suggesting controversy or for considering my sources to represent a fringe view, and then that could be documented in the article, but such a reference has not been brought to my attention. Aryder779 (talk) 14:47, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

As a side note: I'm more than willing to continue having this discussion, and I'll continue to defend every single sentence in this article that has a supporting secondary source if that's what's going to be required of me. However, I would like to suggest that everyone's time would be better spent adding information on important developments in grindcore, rather than attempting to negate the statements that have already been documented. One of my interlocutors suggested that "elaboration on the influence of other genres on the development of grind (sludge, powerviolence, black metal even)" would be a welcome addition, and I couldn't agree more. This Greenway interview has made me want to do more research on Napalm Death's post-Mick Harris work and its status (grind? post-grind? deathgrind? death metal?). But I won't have the time to do any of that research if I'm going to be spending all my time on these relatively minor concerns. Aryder779 (talk) 16:34, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok, so Seethingnuclearchaos put Daughters and Some Girls down in the "Legacy" section, which is alright by me, and then I revised the mathcore and screamo sentences. So it now reads: "Contemporary mathcore groups, such as Dillinger Escape Plan, Some Girls, and Daughters, and screamo groups, like Circle Takes the Square, pg. 99, Hot Cross, Orchid, and Saetia, have been associated with grindcore by some commentators, while also including elements of post-hardcore." Is that cool with everybody? I don't really think of DEP as being in the same subgenre as Some Girls and Daughters, but I think the sources allow this kind of claim, and I think it cleans things up. Aryder779 (talk) 19:19, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Indeed it does look a bit more polished. Seethingnuclearchaos (talk) 14:34, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I think that this source allows mathcore to be listed as a derivative: "Contemporary grindcore bands such as The Dillinger Escape Plan [...] have developed avant-garde versions of the genre incorporating frequent time signature changes and complex sounds that at times recall free jazz." Keith Kahn-Harris (2007), Extreme Metal, Berg Publishers, ISBN 1-84520-399-2, p. 4. Aryder779 (talk) 00:41, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Mathcore is a derivative of grindcore

This has been a controversial issue for some time, so it's important to add this source: "... as grind transformed from being solely consumed with speed and blast-beats, its influence could be heard in the burgeoning metal/noisecore sound (Deadguy, Kiss It Goodbye, Creation is Crucifixion, Converge, The Dillinger Escape Plan, Psyopus) ..."
The terminological relationship between noisecore and mathcore is discussed on the mathcore page. Basically, noisecore initially referred to A.C. and such, and eventually came to describe TDEP (even though the two styles are obviously different). On the same page, Kevin Stewart-Panko describes TDEP's Calculating Infinity as an important album "incorporating grind influences," along with Cattle Decapitation, Cephalic Carnage, and The Locust. Aryder779 (talk) 20:40, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Merger suggestion

Superfopp suggested that deathgrind and goregrind be merged into this article, which is fine with me, though there's been some resistance to that notion in the past. Aryder779 (talk) 14:09, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm in the process of merging deathgrind with this article. I've added a number of bands to the '90s and 2000s sections, with references. If no one can provide more sources for information on the deathgrind page, I'm going to redirect it in the next few days. Aryder779 (talk) 19:22, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

I think goregrind can stay for now. It's possible that in the future, the information should be incorporated into this page, but goregrind is attested to by the sources as a distinct style (basically invented by Carcass). I've eliminated OR and filled out the definition on that page. Aryder779 (talk) 20:06, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Death metal or extreme metal?

Ok, Superfopp changed "Extreme metal" to "Death metal" in the infobox "stylistic origins", on the grounds that it's more specific. Which is fine with me. Grindcore certainly does borrow from black metal.
The problem is this: Grindcore sort of borrows from early black metal as well. Repulsion and Napalm Death take influence from Venom and Celtic Frost. Who're arguably "first wave" black metal groups. So we could list both black metal and death metal. But we should possibly add "avant-garde metal", as well, as this possibly described Celtic Frost best.
There was a similar issue when Shadow Fighter replaced "industrial music" with "industrial rock". I would say that ND generally borrows from Throbbing Gristle and Whitehouse, who are "industrial music", I suppose (though Whitehouse in some ways dissociated themselves from that label). But they also take inspiration from Swans, who're "industrial rock". Or "noise rock", which isn't listed in the box either.
Is there any criteria anyone can recommend for this issue? I mean Napalm Death and other grindcore groups pretty much borrow from everything that happened in underground extreme music from 1975-1985, and that's a lot to acknowledge. Aryder779 (talk) 00:02, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi Aryder779.

I don't think Grindcore was really influenced by Black Metal... maybe by Venom, but in a very early, formative stage. And early Celtic Frost, in the mid-1980s, was simply considered a death metal group, just like early Bathory, Hellhammer and early Sodom were. They're considered BM nowadays because of the revisionism perpetrated by the 2nd Wave of Black Metal bands in the early 1990s, something that apparently most extreme metal-invested Wikipedia editors aren't aware of.

There's also another rather troublesome issue. Some 2nd wave black metal groups are favorable towards right-wing totalitarian ideologies - Nazism, Fascism, etc. - which are almost the polar opposite to the political leanings of grindcore.

All in all, I would personally prefer "death metal" then "extreme metal" in the infobox. Musicaindustrial (talk) 12:45, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree with your conclusion. However -- were Celtic Frost really considered a death metal group? Not thrash metal or avant-garde metal? They're not discussed in Mudrian's book. Also, while grind is typically left wing and black metal is often right wing, that doesn't mean no influence would've occurred between the two camps. Darkthrone borrows from crust punk, and I don't think Darkthrone has much sympathy for anarchism. Grindcore definitely did borrow from Throbbing Gristle and Whitehouse, and both those groups have questionable political ideas. I guess the real issue with black metal is the revisionism you mention -- Venom had an album called "Black Metal", but nobody really thought of it as a distinct genre until the second wave. The first wave is kind of a retroversion, right?

In any case, my reservations are purely academic. Death metal seems like a better indicator than "Extreme metal" or "Black metal". Aryder779 (talk) 20:00, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

For information on Celtic Frost being considered death metal in the mid-1980s, I'd recommed you a source: the book Are You Morbid?, written by none other than Thomas Gabriel Fischer himself, a.k.a. Tom Warrior. It's a very readable inside look of the extreme metal scene in the early days, written by one of the brightest guys to ever enter the genre. I used it as a reference for some edits I did on the Wikipedia's Hellhammer article. Here's a link to it on Amazon.com [http://www.amazon.com/Are-You-Morbid-Gabriel-Fischer/dp/1860743102/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1222122798&sr=1-4]. Sadly, this book is now out-of-print, and the price for acquiring it is currently very sour. Musicaindustrial (talk) 22:47, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

I was around in the early to mid-80's Punk & Metal scenes, and the only band commonly referred to as Black Metal then was Venom, and even still, they were more commonly referred to as a Speed Metal band. As Musicaindustrial points out, the first wave Black Metal scene is something that was attributed to that grouping of bands after the second wave Black Metal bands needed some sort of historical context. Pre-Celtic Frost band Hellhammer had it's first commercial release on the "Death Metal" compilation, and if I recall correctly, it was Thomas Gabriel Fischer who named the compilation, so I would think "Death Metal" is a more appropriate genre definer for Celtic Frost than Black Metal.

One thing that frustrates me with most of the articles regarding extreme metal & punk on Wikipedia is that the sources they are based on are academic books written by people not part of the scene they covered or by fans who came into that scene later, and they are therefore hopelessly flawed ("Lords of Chaos" and to a much lesser extent "Choosing Death" spring to mind). For instance, I'd have to say 90% of listeners of 1980's extreme metal scene used the terms "Thrash Metal" or "Speed Metal" as umbrella terms to cover the genres we now refer to with those names and early Death and Black Metal. Much like Black Metal, Death Metal was a term that got more common use after the 2nd wave of bands came to prominence in the mid to late 1980's, but I would agree with Musicaindustrial that at this point, Death Metal is probably the best way to refer to Celtic Frost.Blashyrkh66 (talk) 00:48, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I was around in the mid 80's and the genre black metal didn't even exist. It came after Death metal. When Napalm Death started Death metal wasn't even really known. At the time people often mistook a comparrision with the popular thrash metal scene.

Napalm Death themselves evolved from the Hardcore / Crustcore Punk scene of the UK but also listened and took influence from Heavy metal bands like Motorhead & Venom & thrash metal bands like Metallica & Slayer (as did most hardcore (etc) punk at the time).

Black metal at the time of the mid 80's into the early 90's just meant "satanic metal" - the opposite being white metal (christian / biblical themed metal). The mass of bands jumping on the newer term black metal such as Immortal etc came and developed their sound much later. When thrash metal arrived from the states (Metallica, Slayer etc) Venom adopted a more thrash guitar sound (which is only fair as they basically were the nearest thing that influenced it - if unless it be argued they did invent it. the term was just not in use then).

Metalosaurus (talk) 10:08, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Seems as Napalm Death started off as a punk group (crustcore) who constantly stated this in interviews that they were of a punk origin then should the enphesise be that punk is the main ingredient? This article makes it seem that they are metal that incorperates punk, yet according to them it is the other way round. Like most Hardcore / Crustcore groups around at the time they also listened to metal music as well as their regular punk tunes. Obviously this has an influence in their sound but originally they were PUNK. Around 1990 they turned more to a death metal audience and toured alongside various death metal act but their roots remain the same. Metalosaurus (talk) 20:54, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Blast beat

I made a "blast beat" section, and recommended it be expanded. The blast beat article is actually quite good, but doesn't cite sources. So, as of now, Repulsion is the only thing we have cited, but we all know that DRI and others used blast beats. Anybody have any idea how we can trace this genealogy? Musicaindustrial, perhaps? Aryder779 (talk) 00:04, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

5th eye added a sentence to this section saying that blast beats are included in "most, if not all" grindcore. Can't we just go all out and say it's a characteristic of *all* grindcore? Is it possible to imagine a grindcore song that had no blast beats? Aryder779 (talk) 14:09, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

We could probably change that sentence, but we'd need a source. I was just being safe for now. = ∫_t^c 5th Eye 18:44, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

There's a great definition of blast beat on the review of a Agoraphobic Nosebleed album, available right here: [5]. There's also the Rockdetector biography of DRI which claims that drummer Eric Brecht was the inventor of this drumming technique ([6]). There's also a brief mention of the subject in Albert Mudrian book, Choosing Death. Musicaindustrial (talk) 23:34, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I just heard the Beastie Boys's Some Old Bullshit compilation, and there's a track there from their first EP - "Riot Fight" - which features a blast beat. Interesting, because this EP was released back in 1982, a year before DRI's debut LP... There's sample of that track in Amazon.com, right here: [http://www.amazon.com/Some-Old-Bullshit-Beastie-Boys/dp/B000002UST/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1222904240&sr=1-13]. Musicaindustrial (talk) 23:45, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

You might be able to get away with citing the Beastie Boys blast beat on either this page or the blast beat article, because noticing a blast beat is arguably an acceptable form of primary source research. We should probably try to use that ANb review definition. Aryder779 (talk) 22:36, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Guitar Tunings

Why is this mentioned in the grindcore section but not other metal sections? Also, considering a lot of non-grind bands tune their guitars low, it seems like it's somewhat gratuitous to mention. Also, the guitar tunings section already does a good job of describing what kind of bands might use such a tuning. 66.142.191.132 (talk) 18:11, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Because grindcore was the first rock genre to use extreme forms of down-tuning. When Carcass (1988) or Napalm Death (1987) used a B-tuning on their 1st records, it was something completely unheard of at the time. All other metal groups that came after it, from American death metal bands such as Morbid Angel to even nu metal acts such as Korn or Limp Bizkit, admittedly owe their their down-tuning practices to grindcore groups. Musicaindustrial (talk) 19:37, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

So there were no death metal or doom metal bands at the time that were tuning to B? If so, then I would understand its mention, but I think it should be made clear that they were the first bands to use such a tuning. 66.142.191.132 (talk) 17:41, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Early doom groups such Candlemass and Trouble never tuned lower than C# (1½ steps down), because that was the classic tuning that Black Sabbath adopted on most of their records, starting on their Master of Reality (1971) album. Early death metal bands such as Death and Obituary tuned their guitars to a D (1 whole step down), probably inspired by Venom, who used that same tuning. But real extreme tuning - that's C (2 whole steps down) and lower - started with grindcore.

The first death metal band to record such extreme tunings were Bolt Thrower, with their Realm of Chaos LP, released in October 1989. They tuned their guitars all the way down to A! Even so, they were back then in the middle ground between grindcore and death metal. Entombed were next (they tuned down to a C) with their Left Hand Path CD, released in June 1990. Other major league death metal bands were relatively slow in catching up with these extreme downtuning practices. Morbid Angel, for instance, would only use a B tuning after Covenant (1993), when Trey Azagthoth bought himself a 7-string guitar. Musicaindustrial (talk) 01:27, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

True Grindcore

true grindcore,is a lot like deathcore...usually downtuned guitars,break beat rythims,double bass drums, high pitched screams with low pitched growls,and mid pitched hardcore or stragiht edge core screams......however, a main difference in the two is the pig squeals...pig squeals, are made by grinding the vocals in an unusal way....bands such as job for a cowboy did this frequently on the album DOOM....some grind core bands to check out would be.....Devourment,Despised Icon,Salt The Wound.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.248.73.68 (talk) 06:42, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

"True" grindcore? Is there any "false" grindcore groups out there? Musicaindustrial (talk) 12:43, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

I like how he mentioned Death metal bands with no grind influence.Inhumer (talk) 16:16, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I like how ironic this talk section's intention is. Maybe we should have a section of how people (especially MySpace) misinterpret grindcore. :P The Phantomnaut (talk) 06:56, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

You'd never be able to find a reliable source, haha.Inhumer (talk) 21:54, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Check youtube, there are a bunch of videos that was made by "fake grindcore" haters, saying what is not grindcore, and complaying about scensters, those videos are not a reliable source, but if you want to know what people say about those "not grindcore, grindcorewannabe" bands, just look there.Exdeathbr (talk) 18:21, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

This source seems to address the issue: "'These kids on MySpace and Headbanger's Ball with the lame breakdown death metal bands really need to quit calling that crap grindcore -- it's offensive," chides bassist James Delgado of Dallas grinders Kill the Client about this most grating of pet peeves. And he's right, you know." - Scott Alisoglu, "Kill the Client: The Art of Grinding," Metal Maniacs, February 2009, vol. 26, no. 2, p. 92. Delgado seems to be referring to deathcore. Aryder779 (talk) 19:51, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Interesting... that should be added to the main page. Musicaindustrial (talk) 09:56, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

OH. Now I see what's going on. Poor kid. Seethingnuclearchaos (talk) 15:21, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Cybergrind

I noticed "Cybergrind" redirectes to grindcore but there is no mention of it on the page. It has enough of a following, it seems, that it should be mentioned somewhere in the article.66.142.188.93 (talk) 14:13, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Please read WP:NOR and WP:RELIABLE. If a reliable source can be found for cybergrind as a style of grindcore, by all means it should be discussed here. Aryder779 (talk) 18:53, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Brutal Truth

For some time now I've been bothered with the following statement:

• "Early American grind practitioners included Terrorizer, Assück, and Brutal Truth."

Brutal Truth would only release their 1st record (Extreme Conditions Demand Extreme Responses) in 1992, so how come they're classed as "classic" Grindcore? Musicaindustrial (talk) 17:21, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, according to Felix von Havoc (cited in the article): "Probably the last of the truly great Grindcore Classics was Brutal Truth's Extreme Conditions Demand Extreme Responses. This is really furious balls to the wall grind. I think it has a really strong early Napalm Death influence but the level of musicianship was really up there enough to push it over the top to stand on its own as a classic. Brutal Truth's later stuff gets a lot more experimental and I feel it lacks the knockout punch of their first LP." '92 is still pretty early in the scene. Also, they formed two years earlier, so this makes them among the first American grind groups. Aryder779 (talk) 16:36, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Actually, you're right that Brutal Truth should definitely be discussed in the context of the 1990s. I've altered the article accordingly. Thanks for pointing this out. Aryder779 (talk) 16:41, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree with von Havoc that ECDER is one of the last "Grindcore Classics", but musically speaking...

Well, Brutal Truth's debut brings a lot of "new" stuff to grind. There's more groove-oriented beats - check out the breakdown of "Birth of Ignorance", the intro of "Stench of Prophet" or the 1st half of "Denial of Existence". There's the reasonably extensive use of samples & sound effects ("P.S.P.I." and again the intro to "Stench of Prophet", for example). There's also the BPMs of the blast and the "2/1" beats - they're faster than anything that had come before them. All in all they're a mutation of the "classic" grindcore sound, bringing the genre into the 1990s.

In my point of view, the "classic" grind bands were the ones releasing records in mid- to late 1980s: Carcass, Napalm Death, Terrorizer and others. Or even Bolt Thrower (in their 1989 "Realm of Chaos" incarnation). I consider Brutal Thruth - and stuff like Anal Cunt - the 2nd generation of grindcore. Musicaindustrial (talk) 12:46, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

B-Class

I believe that this article, in it's current incarnation, should be raised to a B-Class on the quality scale. What do you guys think? Musicaindustrial (talk) 11:52, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. I think the article is pretty good considering how difficult it is to cite extreme metal articles.Karen_Carpentry (talk) 20:50, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Good... Now, does anyone remember how to make it a nominee for a B-Class article? I forgot how :/ Musicaindustrial (talk) 11:08, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Grindcore evolved from crust core

Napalm death come from the Birmingham crust-core punk scene.

For those naive or backward fans that only know Napalm Death through Heavy Metal sources then check out other crust-core groups like Doom etc. you tube is the quickest source. remember and please note that punk was faster, and more aggresssive before Heavy Metal went that way hence NWOBHM & thrash evolving from punk influences.

When Napalm Death were coming from their punk background, death metal wasn't even known. The trouble is that Napalm Death ahave sold more albums to the metal market but that doesn't make them metal does it? Metal fans got into metal thinking anything loud or aggressive is metal but they completely know nothing of the evolution and styles of Hardcore Punk. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.236.213.52 (talk) 07:28, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

With all due respect: Duh.Karen_Carpentry (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 04:16, 3 February 2009 (UTC).

Characteristics of Grindcore

I don't get it at all. Grindcore is a pointless genre in my perspective. But hear me out before you blast me to pieces.

• Guitar Tuning: So Grindcore basically has it's guitars tuned lower? Many bands do this. It is not a Grindcore characteristic. It is just a way to play music. It's not a characteristic of Grindcore, it's one of the many characteristics of metal and industrial.
  • Grindcore was the first rock genre to use extreme forms of down-tuning. When Carcass (1988) or Napalm Death (1987) used a B-tuning on their 1st records, it was something completely unheard of at the time. All other metal groups that came after it, from American death metal bands such as Morbid Angel to even nu metal acts such as Korn or Limp Bizkit, admittedly owe their their down-tuning practices to grindcore groups. Musicaindustrial (talk) 10:29, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
• Lyrical Themes: Judging a band (or a genre for this matter) purely by it's lyrical content does not make it a specific genre. For example, Punk music is not all about anarchy and anti-government. The Ramones sang out school, and random stuff. To say Grindcore just sings about anarchy, and anti-racism, anti-government, etc. does not make it specifically Grindcore.
  • The political underpinnings of Grindcore lyrics is one of the things that separates it from, say, Death metal. Musicaindustrial (talk) 10:29, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
• Timing of Songs: This is probably one of the worst ones here. Grindcore songs are usually short? So are many other bands songs that aren't Grindcore. To base a genre off of the timing of the songs is just pointless.
  • Same case as the "Guitar Tuning" - Grindcore was the first genre to do this. Musicaindustrial (talk) 10:29, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
• Blast Beats: Many bands use Blast Beats. Again, it isn't specific to Grindcore.
  • Extensive blast beat use had already been done by Repulsion and Sarcófago, but a music genre adopting it wholesale? Again, grindcore was the first to do it. Musicaindustrial (talk) 10:29, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

There's three things I can see being done to this article to fix it up. Either delete it because of its lack of purpose to anything (just because a few people said Grindcore exists doesn't mean it does). Or find more sources (such as Grindcore being quoted as being a genre in the 80s, or Grindcore being an actual genre at all). Or redefine the characteristics. I can name many bands who are not Grindcore but have these same characteristics. So basically this article needs to be redone or deleted for pointlessness. 98.28.143.9 (talk) 20:48, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to be charitable and not call troll. There are countless reliable sources backing grindcore up as a genre. For a start, there is an entire book (Choosing Death by Albert Mudrian). Terrorizer are currently running a two part "grindcore special". I have in my hands Grind Your Mind: A History of Grindcore, a compilation of grindcore tracks from 1984-1987. That it's a legitimate genre is simply not up for debate. Regarding characteristics, I sympathise that there is crossover between those of grindcore and other genres but that does not make any of those mentioned above invalid. You got basically do the say for characteristics of thrash metal or punk rock, and say that the characteristics of said genres are also present in death metal or post-punk, and yet they are still clearly distinct genres. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 08:01, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

I should add however, that the article as it currently stands has some moderately serious issues with OR synthesis... a lot of the characteristics section seems to read like band X does this ->this is a characteristic of the genre, rather than finding a third-party source commenting on said characteristic. And there's a bit of over-referencing going on; we don't really need five or six references for a single fact... it actually makes it look less solid than it actually is; counter-intuitive, but there it is). But the article is streets ahead of what it used to be, thanks to the extremely hard work of a number of editors here. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 08:28, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

You're right that some facts include a superfluity of supporting references. I'm going to try to edit some of this down. With regard to WP:SYN issues ... not sure how to work on this right now, though it's on my mind. As I recall, "exemplary" articles like heavy metal music, punk rock, and grunge music also make claims about the genre through relevant examples. Aryder779 (talk) 01:04, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Grind Your Mind (source)

Recently got hold of the Grind Your Mind: A History of Grindcore compilation (Mayan Records, MYNDD056, 2007). Apart from being generally awesome, it contains a valuable essay on the history of the genre by Albert Mudrian (author of Choosing Death), with a section at the end written by Danny Lilker concerning grind subgenres. I've got no particular desire to personally get involved in resurrecting the old subgenre debate, but thought I'd stick it up here as a reliable source that someone else might like to utilise ;):

A User's Guide to Grindcore: Need help telling this stuff apart? So do we! Fortunately, Brutal Truth bassist and extreme metal legend Danny Lilker happily broke down grindcore and its many splinters for you.

"Today grindcore is known by its heavily distorted and down-tuned guitars, along with its frequent one-foot blast, and skank beats, usually consisting of short songs and, in most cases, growls and high pitched vocals. Lyrical concepts range from social and political issues and/or gore, to horror and humor. The result of all this is several grindcore subgenres. Here are the most popular ones:

DEATHGRIND: A mixture of the technicality of death metal and the intensity of grind! Examples: Cattle Decapitation, mid-period Carcass, and recent Napalm Death.

GOREGRIND: Gore and Horror themes with different pitches of vocals. Examples: Regurgitate, and Reek of Putrefaction-era Carcass.

CYBERGRIND: Heavily influenced by electronic music. In most cases, drum machines or any sort of electronic samples are combined. Examples: The Berzerker, Genghis Tron.

NOISEGRIND: It focusses on noise and/or speed rather than musicianship - lots of guitar feedbacks, and out of tuned and very poor productions. Examples: Anal Cunt, Anal Massaker."

Hope that was helpful :) Blackmetalbaz (talk) 08:18, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Considering the horrible quality of the goregrind article, this feels a lot more necessary than the needless deathcore blurb I just had to edit. Seethingnuclearchaos (talk) 15:16, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree that the goregrind article could certainly be improved; the Swedish Death Metal book and the Terrorizer special include good information on the style. I'm not sure if I'll have time to get to it.

With regard to subgenres: One thing that would be good to get worked out at some point is the status of "noisegrind" or "noisecore." In the February 2009 Terrorizer, Guilio from Cripple Bastards says: "TNT Records from Germany was the most extreme label around in the late '80s. [Matthias Weigand] definitely put noisecore on the map and launched 7 Minutes Of Nausea and Anal Cunt, who were the most anti-musical and nihilistic face of extreme music at that time, pushing things way over the already inhuman limit that Napalm Death, Sore Throat and Carcass had set." (p. 44) In the same issue, Botch is described as a "noisecore pioneer." (p. 63) Botch is clearly pretty different from what Guilio is describing, much more like mathcore. And of course it's even further complicated by electronic musicians who also call themselves noisecore. Anyhow, not sure how to address this. Aryder779 (talk) 17:34, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Suggestions

• Make the James Hoare quote, in the article intro, the opener to the "Legacy" section.
• Move the bit about deathcore in the "Legacy - Others" subsection to the "History - 2000s" subsection.

What do you guys think? Musicaindustrial (talk) 16:36, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Agree with the first one... quotes in introductions look sloppy. Not sure about the second one; deathcore is certainly influenced by grind but is not a continuation of the genre, so staying in a legacy/influenced-by section seems reasonable to me. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 18:03, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

I moved the quote. Aryder779 (talk) 19:16, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

CUNTS

LISTN UP YOU INTERNET FAT FUCKING WE PUSSYS REMOVE THE DILLINGER ESCAPE PLAN FROM THIS ARTICLE IN THE NEXT 24 HOURS OR WE WILL COME ROUND TO YOUR HOMES AND FUCK YOUR MOTHERS AS WE JUMP ON YOUR HEAD WE ARE THE MASTERS OF METAL WE ARE WATCHING

Actually, I'm beginning to consider much of the "legacy" section to carry undue weight. I haven't gotten a chance to read part II of the Terrorizer grindcore special, but if TDEP aren't mentioned there, it's possible that their mention should be deleted. I don't live with my mother, incidentally, so you'll have to make two trips. Aryder779 (talk) 21:33, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

The second part of the Terrorizer grindcore special does discuss the Dillinger Escape Plan, so it's not undue weight to address that here. Aryder779 (talk) 21:27, 20 March 2009 (UTC)