Talk:Greeks/Archive 11

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Greeks in Albania

Jeffries quote

Our citation, currentl ref 14, of page 69 of Jeffries, Ian (2002). Eastern Europe at the Turn of the Twenty-First Century: A Guide to the Economies in Transition. London and New York: Routledge (Taylor & Francis). ISBN 978-0-415-23671-3 includes a quotation from that work, "It is difficult to know how many ethnic Greeks there are in Albania. The Greek government, it is typically claimed, says there are around 300,000 ethnic Greeks in Albania, but most Western estimates are around the 200,000 mark ..." This text is visible in Google Books.[1].

@FierakuiVërtet: has repeatedly changed this to "It is difficult to know how many ethnic Greeks there are in Albania. The Albanian government claimed that there were only 60,000, based on the biased 1989 census, whereas the Greek government claimed that there were upwards of 300,000. Most Western estimates were around the 200,000 mark ..." so that it is not a true and honest quotation from that work. How can we proceed? NebY (talk) 22:34, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

  • I solved the issue. Ktrimi991 (talk) 23:10, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

My bad, I apologize, I thought that the source being quoted was: Robert Bideleux; Ian Jeffries (2006). The Balkans: A Post-Communist History. Routledge. p. 49. Quote on Google Books [2]: The Albanian government claimed that there were only 60,000, based on the biased 1989 census, whereas the Greek government claimed that there were upwards of 300,000. Most Western estimates were around the 200,000 mark ... FierakuiVërtet (talk) 23:29, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Thank you! I can see a case for switching to citing and quoting the 2006 version, but It seems Ktrimi991's edit including more of the 2002 version resolves it. NebY (talk) 07:42, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
So why are you still allowing an incorrect quote? Even the 2006 source is quoted differently than the Albanian editors keep writing it. Stop fooling readers. Virgilanthony (talk) 05:07, 14 November 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
As I said above, this text is visible in Google Books.[3]. You may wish to read it there yourself rather than WP:AGF, but for the benefit of other editors or in case that later becomes unavailable, I'll repeat it in full: "It is difficult to know how many ethnic Greeks there are in Albania. The Greek government, it is typically claimed, says there are around 300,000 ethnic Greeks in Albania, but most Western estimates are around the 200,000 mark (although EEN puts the number at a probable 100,000: 15 March 1995, Vol. 9, no.6, p.4). The Albanian government puts the number at only 60,000." NebY (talk) 11:28, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

@Virgilanthony: I and @NebY: have provided the links to two quotes from two sources which say the same thing. Look it up instead of edit warring and insulting me. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 16:58, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

@FierakuiVërtet No insult, you just dont write honestly. please add the source to the actual page, and add the extra onto it. you clearly state you apologised because you used a different source. Virgilanthony (talk) 19:29, 14 November 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
@Virgilanthony: The text you repeatedly deleted is in the cited source. After I provided the link above, FierakuiVërtet saw that it was and apologised, but it was not FierakuiVërtet who inserted the text you keep deleting.
Wikipedia has a policy, Wikipedia:No personal attacks. Your comments are in breach of it, and it is no justification that they are based on your misreading and misunderstanding. Please strike them per WP:TALK#REVISE. NebY (talk) 19:57, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
@Virgilanthony You are doing a mess and honestly you should apologize for all you have done. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 21:04, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Albania source quote is incorrect

User that keeps adding a 60,000 figure by the Albanian govt to the Jeffries source for the Albania figure is misrepresenting the source. It does not mention that in the quote as evident by reading the source online. Please see other entry on Talk page where its clear thats the case and highlighted by someone else. Virgilanthony (talk) 19:20, 14 November 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.

@Virgilanthony: Have you read the first five lines of this page at Google Books, which I have quoted above? The 60,000 figure is there, in the source cited and quoted. NebY (talk) 19:30, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
Thanks. Virgilanthony (talk) 10:15, 13 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
@Virgilanthony You have clearly shown your intention. You didn't even read the source to check if the 60,000 was there. You just don't like that number, that is why now you expanded the quote. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 21:18, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Greeks in Albania numbers

No one disputed the census results being featured for Albania... whether it be the 1980s or 1989. What was disputed was the neglect of the other varying estimates, which are crucial due to the long history of debate regarding the ethnic Greek communities of Albania.

If we are to include the census, which is over 30 years old, but nonetheless mentioned in the sources cited - including the older ones FierakuiVertet removed - then a note should be added regarding the estimations. For example, the 200,000 Western estimation has been consistent in numerous reputable sources across the decades regarding the Greek communities in Albania.

Whereas the higher 300,000 estimate from the Greek government has not been widely recognised, it is still nonetheless included in the cited sources - including those the previous editor removed.

In the spirit of neutrality and compromise, the estimates should be included in the smaller txt edit to assist readers and highlight the historical debate regarding the number.

Worthy to note, 189,000 Greeks from Albania now reside in Greece and are issued special identification cards as noted by the Greek government. The page nor the Albania numbers never had any issues or 'edit wars' until FierakuiVertet began to make edits. This is clear if one looks at the overall history of the page. Virgilanthony (talk) 23:55, 9 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.

@Virgilanthony: The estimates are already part of the quote for everyone to examine in depth. The official number must be reported along side the most backed-up estimate, which is the 200,000 mark. You have been letting the 200,000 mark for weeks. Now that i have added the official number, you wanted to put even the Greek gov. est to counterbalance it but this is not how it goes. But ok, by this logic...
As soon as the block expires i will add the fact that only 49,000 voted for the Greek party in 1992 Albanian elections (which the source mentions)
Regarding the other thing... i don't know where you are you from but you apparently happen to know nothing about Albania and Greece. You mention this "special card" without knowing that many of them whom benefited from it were Orthodox Albanians and Aromanian Albanians who presented themselves as ethnic Greeks just to get to work in Greece after 1992. This is supported by Greece sick rethorics about Orthodox Christians beinf Greek. All this is backed up by reports which you would have found here on Wikipedia if you would have had any real interest in "Greeks coommunities" in Albania. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 00:34, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
Re: estimates avail for all, if that is the case there is no reason for you to have comeback and begin another chaotic triad. This was resolved and the previous user NED (forgot full username) mentioned the same on your page and questioned why you are back causing further edits and problems. The official number was NEVER removed by me, it was merely expanded with the estimates which the same sources you referenced, and the ones you removed, show. I know you are trying hard to put forward an ultra-Albanian nationalist narrative, this is evident in your history, other critiques of your post and the paragraph re: special identity cards, Aromanians etc but this is not the page nor are those the figures and sources to bring this narrative. You can add whatever, the fact is the estimates will always be clear there for the benefit of the readers. I look forward to your vandalism finally being exposed for what it is and for you to being blocked from destroying pages, sources and going on a useless triad of spurious edits because you dislike ethnic Greeks. I would hope if you were genuine about neutrality, facts and figures you wouldn't have a problem when new edits are made to Albanians in Greece and Serbia reflecting official government sources that are produced in the last few years. Virgilanthony (talk) 04:51, 10 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
@Virgilanthony: I've already explained it to you. There is no need to put the other estimates since you yourself accepted to put just the 200,000 mark as an estimate for weeks. Meanwhile i've just added the official number of Greeks in Albania. Everyone who wanted to examine it in depth could read the quote.
However if you wanted neutrality and honesty you would let this --> (dubious) (as the source emphasize) in the estimates, but you refused with no argumentation whatsoever. I suggest to you take this seriously and provide explanations because the one who will be exposed here for what it is, it's you.
Everybody can have a look at what you did last month and judge.
I always provide an summary for my edit with argumentations. Meanwhile your main argumentation (like last time when you even refused to read what I and the other editor wrote) is that my edit are anti-greek. Therefore if someone will be blocked don't consider yourself exempted.
I invite you to do constructive comments from now on.
If you insist on putting all the estimates and be really neutral then it should be this way:
  1. 59,000 (1989 census)
  2. 49,000 (voted for Omonia in 1992 (elections regarded as free))
  3. (the Greek gov. est. 300,000) (most Western sources at 200,000 although EEN puts the number at 100,000) (dubious) FierakuiVërtet (talk) 10:51, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
You can't just say 100,000-300,000 like there are hundreds of estimates backing up these marks. No, it is just two. The Greek gov and EEN. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 11:01, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
We cannot use voting figures as an indicator of the size of an ethnic group - see WP:SYNTH. The 1989 census was over 30 years ago and is described by Jeffries as biased. NebY (talk) 11:59, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
Yes, exactly. Not to mention that it was conducted by a dictatorial regime. There are far better sources available. The fact that it's "official" carries no special weight whatsoever - there is no wikipedia policy that states that official sources have special standing. Khirurg (talk) 18:30, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
Yes exactly, FierakuiVertet is merely anti-Greek. He fails to recognise, as other sources on other pages have mentioned, the 30+ year old census only looked at Greeks inside the designated Greek minority zone hence the low number. We must revert to the 200,000 estimation that is the norm across sources. 122.57.61.210 (talk) 09:57, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
Sorry, but you, FierakuiVertet, have discredited yourself entirely. Many agree this will be going back to the usual 200,000, and readers will see the full figures in their research, the citation and other sources. We do not count voting figures in estimations. We also need to recognise that census only included Greeks in the designated minority zones. Looking forward to the page going back to normal, and the estimation being reverted to what it was for a good decade, and what is the norm in academia re: historical Greek estimates in Albania. Virgilanthony (talk) 10:00, 13 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
  • @Virgilanthony @SilentResident @NebY @Khirurg A 2015 webpage issued by Minority Rights Group International starts with: Greeks make up the largest ethnic minority in Albania. There are no official up-to-date figures, but according to the 1989 Census, there were 58,758 Greeks. Other estimates put it much higher. Considering that everytime a source deals with the size of the Greek minority in Albania the 1989 census is always mentioned could you give me a genuine argument for not doing the same on Wikipeda without getting political? This is the last official figure we've got. We could add a footnot which explains that it is not an up-to-date figure and that it was considered bias (alternatively specifying it using brackets). But why purposedly obscure it? My original edit was: 58,000 (1989) (est. 200,000).
  • @SilentResident I want to remind you the current version of the page is the result of @Virgilanthony's edit and that he explicitly agreed that the the census should stay if all the figures are present (300,000). You are not even consistent in what you write... both of you two. I also want to remind you two that insults are useless and that i (everybody) could say exactly the same to you.
FierakuiVërtet (talk) 22:16, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

 Comment: The figure of 59,000 has no place on the infobox, except perhaps as part of a [footnote], the wording of which has, for clarity, to make sure that the readers are informed about its unreliability. The infobox, instead, should reflect on the reliable sources, and that is, the estimates given by them. Wikipedia reflects on WP:RS, not what a former dictatorial oppressive regime may have reported and which may serve a certain nationalist political narrative nowadays. FierakuiVërtet, I have been trying in the past couple of days to understand what exactly makes you so passionate about that number 60.000 but I am sorry to say that; your arguments so far were extremely weak, and are not compliant with Wikipedia's guidelines, and considering the evident lack of WP:CONSENSUS in the talk page about your edits, once the article protection is lowered, they will be reverted back to the version prior to your edits: [4]. I strongly recommend that you heel to Black Kite's warnings and refrain from making any such problematic edits in the future or else I may request that you are at least topic banned from the WP:Balkans topic area. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 01:04, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for this, I agree. We should revert to the usual 200,000 as historically been the case on this page, and the citation provides ample information that expands on the estimation, and other figures. Thank you @SilentResident Virgilanthony (talk) 10:01, 13 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.

The constant abuser, @FierakuiVertet, fails to recognise the 1989 source and figure ONLY includes Greeks that the Communist Government recognised in the 99 villages of southern Albania. There are sources that corroborate this. The article should revert to the usual posting and number. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.61.210 (talk) 09:56, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Albania 1989 Census - Included only designated Greek villages

It's worthy to note that the 1989 census on Greeks in Albania, conducted by the then Communist Govt, merely looked at 99 designated villages.

Pettifer 2001, p. 6: "In contrast, Albanian governments use a much lower figure of 58,000 which rests on the unrevised definition of "minority" adopted during the communist period. Under this definition, minority status was limited to those who lived in 99 villages in the southern border areas, thereby excluding important concentrations of Greek settlement in Vlora (perhaps 8000 people in 1994) and in adjoining areas along the coast, ancestral Greek towns such as Himara, and ethnic Greeks living elsewhere throughout the country. Mixed villages outside this designated zone, even those with a clear majority of ethnic Greeks, were not considered minority areas and therefore were denied any Greek-language cultural or educational provisions."

The consensus has been that Albania's Greek population is hard to number and estimate, due to many political and social issues, but the 200,000 mark has been the norm in academic circles since the 1990s. Virgilanthony (talk) 10:03, 13 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.

Yes, this is a well-known issue and the established WP:CONSENSUS in Wikipedia is to inform the readers about the population estimates as provided by academic sources, and that is to not give any credibility to any political propagandas. There is no need to ever debate about this. Upon article protection lift, FierakuiVërtet's edits will be undone and the number 200.000 will be restored. Simple as that. I think this discussion has come to a natural end. Please do not create more talk page sections about this. They are not necessary and certainly not helpful since the points and arguments were already made previously, both in the unarchived and archived discussions and none was able to refute them yet. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 18:58, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
This figure (200k) is WP:OUTDATED as are the 1989 figures. Massive migration has occurred since the 1990s. There aren't more than 30k Greeks in Albania today and even if we counted all existing inhabitants of all areas where it might be reasonable to say that there is at least a substantial Greek population, the actual number again is very low. The ethnicity count might be a subject of debate (minor - in reality) but nobody is disputing that in 2011 no more than 3.5k people lived in the unified Dropull municipality which is one of the two main Greek municipalities. I avoid editing disputes over figures and I really believe that it's not meaningful to argue for narratives which don't correspond to reality. A narrative about 200k Greeks in Albania is far away from reality. The new general census will be conducted in 2023 in Albania (postponed due to COVID-19), but we have yearly data for all municipalities. Between 2017-2019, just 16 children were born in Dropull but 266 people died. It is the municipality with the worst deaths-to-births ratio in Albania. In the unified municipality of Finiq (the other "central" municipality of the Greek community), the ratio of deaths to births is 3-to-1.[5] A compromise solution until the new census is to add the figure as "up to 200k (1990s)" with a note which clarifies that massive migration has occurred since then. In my opinion, this might be a realistic depiction of bibliography.--Maleschreiber (talk) 22:21, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
Maleschreiber, due to your rank as an Administrator in the Albanian version of Wikipedia, you were supposed to be better at your policy-based arguments than this; Wikipedia relies on reliable sources for its information, not sources such as the 2011 census which was questioned and boycotted by the minorities [6]. We may not favor a non-reliable census from 2011 to argue that the estimates from reliable sources are outdated in any way. This is not the principle of what WP:OUTDATED does say, where newer > reliable and date > accuracy. This is unencyclopedic to do so. The readers want to learn about an ethnic group's population in a country as reported by reliable sources and only. Even if they arent the most recent.
Only when and if a new census is conducted in the country, one that isn't boycotted by the country's minorities, may be used in Wikipedia to objectively and accurately inform the readers. Until then, readers may only be informed in a footnote that the figures have not been updated for a long while. Nothing more, nothing less. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 23:16, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
Administrative and statistical data are generated on a yearly basis, they are not related the census which most inhabitants didn't even boycott in Dropull. The figures for the population of Dropull in 2011 are not disputed by any institution or organization. The point is that in all demographic reports on a yearly basis Dropull and Finiq occupy the bottom positions. It's better to find a way to describe the reality as it is to readers than to insist on including a narrative which doesn't correspond to what is happening in reality. I proposed a reasonable compromise: add the figure as "up to 200k (1990s)" with a note which clarifies that massive migration has occurred since then.--Maleschreiber (talk) 23:31, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
The sources and other pages clearly note mass migration. The revert, as @SilentResident mentioned, is the best way forward. Even your own input, starts off politically and bias above ^ with the births, rebirth, and the "there aren't more than 30k Greeks in Albania." Readers are aware of the situation. Not to mention you cannot fully prove that massive migration out of Albania, which has occurred in different waves etc are in fact Greeks, ethnic Albanians, or others. Only that they are nationals of the Republic of Albania. Virgilanthony (talk) 00:35, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
It's also worthy to note that immigration out of Albania, primarily to Greece, has fluctuated considerably since the Greek economic crisis. Many of the original migrants, which may or may not include members of the ethnic minority, have returned back to Albania. Therefore it's simply incorrect to rely on the fact Albania has seen an exodus of its people, of all ethnic backgrounds, as something that could potentially explain lowering the Greek figure. If this is to apply here, it would have to apply to the Albanians in Greece page. But no one has gone on editing wars or suggested anything in terms of changing those figures etc until such a time there are credible government statistics. The sources re: Greeks in Albania, the controversy of Albanian recording taking and keeping, the possibility of Orthodox citizens being lumped with the Greek figures, issues re: migration and so on so forth are recognised on the sources cited, the dedicated page to the community, and play a role in gathering more up to date information. Until such a time as @SilentResidentalludes to, that there is credible, updated, universally acceptable figures and results, recognised at home in Albania and abroad (for example how the 2011 census was not recognised even by opposition Albanian forces) there is a need to revert the figure to the 200,000 as the overwhelming majority of Western sources note. This respects the historical community figures, while recognising the present realities that impacts not just Greeks in Albania, but all peoples in the Balkans, that is: complex identities and considerable migration and movement. The sources referenced historically on this page and others relating to the figure that the previous editor was hellbent on removing are from credible sources and academics that take into consideration history, controversy, government statistics, migration and everything in between - it's incumbent upon readers to unpack said sources, which Wikipedia guides them to. Virgilanthony (talk) 00:50, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
We must also recognise that people can opt to declare however they wish on censuses. They may choose to not declare too. This is why the cited sources and historical detail on the figure of estimated 200,000 is important and must remain. At present Albania puts pressure due to existing laws to declare what it says in ones passport, despite the govt noting people are free to declare as they please. Not all ethnic minorities will declare as said ethnic minority. There are specific reasons, and that requires readers to do further research into the country, community and so on. Virgilanthony (talk) 00:56, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
Hello, new here. You make good points. It's unfortunate that this page has been having conflict, especially for people like myself that are conducting some research on Greeks around the world. I have checked many resources, some cited on this page or within sources cited on this page, including those from the 2000s and 2010s, and I also see that 200,000~ is the figure recorded for the Greek population in and from Albania. The administrator @SilentResident solution is fitting: to revert to original. I don't think qualifying anything based on contemporary opinions is needed because it discredits experts and valuable sources on the Greek communities in Albania. Kiwieuro2022 (talk) 01:56, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
Why is Dropull significant? @Maleschreiber The whole issue re: the census from 30 years ago was that it only used 99 villages, yet you are solely focusing on 1. The article never had issues before, the figure is fitting in the broad sense. I also note there are many other estimates for other nations on the page which have not been questioned by anyone, and many of said estimates are merely reports from the Greek Foreign Ministry. If we followed this, which seems acceptable to people judging by the history of this page, then the figure of Albania would be 300,000 - as that's what the Greek authorities have consistently maintained. Due to the bigger picture, recognising the limitations, respecting the complexities, it should be reverted to how it was with the figure being 200,000 and the source allowing readers to expand on the topic, look at older figures etc. Virgilanthony (talk) 02:01, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
@Virgilanthony: I referred to Dropull and Finiq specifically because these are the only municipalities which have an almost entirely ethnic Greek population and they are the biggest municipalities inhabited by ethnic Greeks. The case can't be that these two centers of the Greek population in Albania are basically depopulated by migration towards Greece, while 200k Greeks live in Albania. The source which is used was published in 2002 and refers to figures and claims of the 1990s, hence it falls under WP:OUTDATED. The 1989 figure is also outdated by definition. I'm not suggesting that we should use the 1989 figure in the infobox, but we can't use a 2002 claim either. The Greek government doesn't claim that 300k Greeks live in Albania and there aren't any official Greek sources which support such a claim.--Maleschreiber (talk) 15:21, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
Yes there are, sorry but I just am not convinced by your input like the previous person. It just comes across as Albanians are unhappy with the figure and are trying hard to change it. Not sure why. Virgilanthony (talk) 18:28, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
At this point you are only providing opinion on matter. We cannot rely on opinion on these matters. Virgilanthony (talk) 18:30, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
Re it falls under WP:OUTDATED, that is a redirect to Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions#Out of date, not a policy or guideline that we shouldn't use figures that aren't very recent. Jeffries' 2002 text was repeated almost verbatim in Bideleux and Jeffries (2006) - see above - which I think is the most recent non-governmental WP:RS mentioned here. The infobox shows many other figures as estimates eg "(2016 estimate)", "(2011 estimate)" and it would seem reasonable to present this as "(2006 estimate)" or even "(2002 & 2006 estimate)". NebY (talk) 18:30, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for the note, I was referring to WP:AGEMATTERS. --Maleschreiber (talk) 19:39, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
Yea, and it's not just those sources, if genuinely interested readers/researchers bother they will find ample other sources that cite the same, and are recent sources too. I tried to add some prior but FierakuiVërtet opted to delete them and add a random link to an unreliable website. Virgilanthony (talk) 18:33, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
Can you repeat here the sources that you tried to add, so we can all see and consider them? NebY (talk) 18:45, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
In due course. Virgilanthony (talk) 19:02, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
@Virgilanthony: I didn't realize that your account was created just 6 weeks ago and then you almost immediately jumped into this debate with FierakuiVërtet. A good start to understand how we should be using sources is WP:AGEMATTERS and WP:CONTEXTMATTERS. @NebY: The last official census stats which have been published date to 2011 and they're disputed by Greek organizations. There should be a discussion on how the most recent official stats should be discussed on the infobox and the article in general. It counted 24,243 Greeks[7]. Even if it was argued that 2/3 of Greeks boycotted the census - which in itself as a figure is much higher than the upper limit of the number of those who could have boycotted the census - there would still be no more than ~73k Greeks in Albania in 2011. My larger point is that the article and the infobox should discuss the subject in a realistic manner. --Maleschreiber (talk) 19:39, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
So what? When I see nonsense, like I did in the editing of his, of course I would jump in. Everyone has the right to start an account whenever they please. Please don't discriminate. Instead, focus on providing better arguments, with evidence, which you still are failing. Otherwise, just move on. Virgilanthony (talk) 20:05, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
According to the table in Demographics of Albania#Ethnic groups, 435,082 respondents to the 2011 census didn't declare their ethnicity. If that's correct and some boycotted it too, your figure of ~73k could be wildly out.
At present, there's one sentence about the ethnically Greek population of Albania in this article, "There is a sizeable Greek minority of approximately 200,000 people in Albania.", citing Jeffries (2002). (Yes it is truly amazing we're spending all this time over that and one infobox figure in a long article about the history of Greeks and current situation in Greece and worldwide.) That sentence might become "As of 2002, there was a sizeable Greek minority of an estimated 200,000 people in Albania." We might leave it at that and breathe a sigh of relief, or add that since then there has been substantial emigration, especially to Greece, and significant numbers have returned. It seems we would have RSs for that, though any figures might be contentious. NebY (talk) 20:14, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
Yes but you cannot prove or disprove that immigration to and from Greece by Albanian nationals are in fact Greeks or not. It's best to leave as it has been for a considerable time until there were edits by Albanians not happy with Greeks, until there is such a time when Albania holds and produces records that are universally accepted and recent. Virgilanthony (talk) 20:16, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
In any case, there are other articles specifically related to the Greeks of Albania and Albanians in Greece that discuss the issue of emigration and immigration. Virgilanthony (talk) 20:17, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
Would you be happy with "As of 2002, there was a sizeable Greek minority of an estimated 200,000 people in Albania."? NebY (talk) 20:24, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
What matters is respecting the resources and established precedence. The article correctly noted for a long time estimates are up to 200,000 as recognised by Western sources. When one hovers above the source, it goes into detail about the other figures, and the date each figure is from. Therefore a simple revert back to how it was is sufficient until such a time Albanian records are updated, accepted and recognised at home and abroad. Virgilanthony (talk) 20:28, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
On Wikipedia, we often make "as of" statements as time goes on or in recognition that time will go on. Our articles aren't locked indefinitely, nor even "until such a time Albanian records are updated, accepted and recognised at home and abroad", which could also be a long time. NebY (talk) 20:45, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
The 2011 census is universally disputed, first and foremost by non-government Albanian authorities, groups and peoples then international organisations like CoE. Even the Albania-centric pages note this. The revert to 200,000 should be done until such a time when Albania holds credible census, and where there is little room for dispute regarding results and sources. Opinions, including your personal estimations ^, have little to no place in the article. Virgilanthony (talk) 20:14, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
@Virgilanthony: I've lowered the figures for Albanians in Montenegro with the same arguments I'm using here. Our articles often provide overinflated figures which don't correspond to reality itself. Throughout Europe, the number of people who belong to minority communities in every country is smaller than many articles claim. @NebY: There are many people who have undeclared ethnicity or mother tongue because most of them weren't even in the country when the census was conducted but they were registered from the "administrative database". Georgiou, Myria (2004), Mapping Minorities and their Media: The National Context – Greece, London School of Economics: The Greek case is unique in the way it has attracted large numbers of legal and illegal migrants, but also about 2 million ethnic Greeks (Pontians, Greeks from Albania), by successive waves through the late 20th century (Tsoukala, 1999). The long and adventurous 20th century history of migration in Greece can be drawn by period: 1922-23: 1.25 million ethnic Greek refugees from Asia Minor 1950’s- ’70s: 200,000 Greeks from Turkey, Zaire, Lebanon, Egypt 1974+: 150,000 Greek Cypriot refugees 1949 – present: return of 33,500 Greek political refugees, especially from Eastern Europe 1960’s with large boom after 1989: 70,000 Pontic Greeks – 15,000 arrivals a year 1990’s: The vast majority of the 200,000 ethnic Greeks from Albania.--Maleschreiber (talk) 21:19, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
Would you like to propose some text for the article? NebY (talk) 21:31, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
  • Based on my earlier posts I would propose: Various sources place the number of Greeks from Albania as up to 200,000 in the late 1990s and early 2000s. Since then, many of them have migrated to Greece. --Maleschreiber (talk) 21:49, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
    Thank you. I take it Georgiou (now a professor at LSE) could be one source for that, but you might be able to offer other more recent ones. NebY (talk) 22:15, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
    Not neutral enough, "since then many have migrated to Greece", where is the evidence of that? Virgilanthony (talk) 22:21, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
    In Georgiou's paper, quoted above. NebY (talk) 22:23, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
    It's generic, it doesn't include any figure or percentage, nor does it mention where that conclusion is from. Another source can easily say "since the Greek economic crisis, many ethnic Greeks from Albania that emigrated to Greece, have returned back to Albania." Virgilanthony (talk) 22:25, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
    The infobox should be simple "est. 200,000" as was the case with a note (excludes emigration) or something along those lines, since the sources that have recognised the 200,000 figure haven't looked into emigration. Virgilanthony (talk) 22:26, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
  • @Virgilanthony @SilentResident @NebY @Khirurg A 2015 webpage issued by Minority Rights Group International starts with: Greeks make up the largest ethnic minority in Albania. There are no official up-to-date figures, but according to the 1989 Census, there were 58,758 Greeks. Other estimates put it much higher. Considering that everytime a source deals with the size of the Greek minority in Albania the 1989 census is always mentioned could you give me a genuine argument for not doing the same on Wikipeda without getting political? This is the last official figure we've got. We could add a footnot which explains that it is not an up-to-date figure and that it was considered bias (alternatively specifying it using brackets). But why purposedly obscure it? My original edit was: 58,000 (1989) (est. 200,000).
  • @SilentResident I want to remind you the current version of the page is the result of @Virgilanthony's edit and that he explicitly agreed that the the census should stay if all the figures are present (300,000). You are not even consistent in what you write... both of you two. I also want to remind you two that insults are useless and that i (everybody) could say exactly the same to you.
FierakuiVërtet (talk) 22:12, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
As usual, back again and this time accusing me of your spurious edits? Just accept it, you dislike Greeks, we know, hence you have worked hard to lower sources. But it's not going to be accepted on the English version. Virgilanthony (talk) 22:19, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
@Virgilanthony it is you the last one who edited the page: [8] [9] You are totally clueless about your own editing behaviour. Moreover you agreed to put the 58,000 above on this talk page. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 22:31, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
It can sometimes be appropriate in running text to introduce a figure only to dismiss or discredit it, as on that webpage, but that doesn't work in an infobox. Leading with 58,000 there would imply that it's the most accurate figure we can provide to our readers. NebY (talk) 22:21, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
Yes, exactly. He also further edited a few times to change it from 58,000 to 60,000 at one point. Out of all editing on this page, his ones have been the most obvious to be personal rather than factual. This is why after the initial issue with the quote of the book, and settlement, he came back and edited it. Virgilanthony (talk) 22:23, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
@Virgilanthony Actually i've edited it from 60,000 to 58,000. You are the one who is messing up edits. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 22:32, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
We should be discussing what the article should say, not each other. NebY (talk) 22:33, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
@NebY i know... but the total cluelessness and incosistency of his accusation is difficult to ignore and i cannot understand if he is doing this on purpose or what. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 22:47, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
We should still be discussing what the article should say, not each other. NebY (talk) 22:50, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
@NebY Official figurs are always mentioned even if they will be discredited. Why Wikipedia should be the exceptions? FierakuiVërtet (talk) 22:25, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
Wikipedia is exceptional, and besides, even outside Wikipedia official figures are not always mentioned, let alone mentioned first. NebY (talk) 22:38, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
@NebY: what do you think about my proposal? It could be further revised per Vickers, Miranda (2010)The Greek Minority in Albania – Current Tensions, Defence Academy of the United Kingdom, ISBN-13: 978-1-905962-79-2 : Estimates of the ethnic Greek minority in Albania range from two to seven percent of the total population, but the generally accepted view is that today there are approximately between 45-50,000 ethnic Greeks in Albania, roughly 2 percent of the total Albanian population. so the sentence would be Various sources place the number of Greeks from Albania as up to 200,000 in the late 1990s and early 2000s. Since then, many of them have migrated to Greece. In the early 2010s, it is generally accepted that c. 45-50,000 Greeks lived in Albania--Maleschreiber (talk) 22:42, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
But it's not generally accepted. She doesn't corroborate. And she uses the same census etc that are being questioned here. Virgilanthony (talk) 22:59, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
I would tweak the phrasing to something a little closer to Jeffries and more pernickety about tenses, eg In the late 1990s and early 2000s, most Western estimates of the number of ethnic Greeks in Albania were around 200,000 Since then, many migrated to Greece and in 2010 the early 2010s, it was generally accepted that about 45-50,000 ethnic Greeks lived in Albania. NebY (talk) 23:00, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
You would need to corroborate the generally accepted point. Virgilanthony (talk) 23:01, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
or it was reported to be generally accepted NebY (talk) 23:06, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
Still, where is the corroboration of that? Where else is it accepted? Because while the 200,000 figure and Jeffries source is easily corroborated, the Miranda report - not widely used - is not. Neither in this discussion nor in her report. Virgilanthony (talk) 23:08, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
Well, Jeffries isn't all that explicit about his "most Western estimates" either. But yes, I'd be glad to see other reports from the last ten years or so, if possible post-2015. NebY (talk) 23:15, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
But he's been used in other sources that also link 200,000 - they're on Google Scholar but many require access via payment/university institutes. Miranda Vickers however hasn't. So it's really questionable to adopt her phrasing. Even the Greek census of Omonoia organised a few years back, not recognised by the Albanian authorities, would've placed the number over 140,000 if as reported by that census over-half of the total number of 287,000~ were based in Greece, but kept connection to Albania. Point is, it's contentious and messy. The previously settled edit, from the figure down to the quote, was acceptable and recognises the complexity of this case - of course until such a time as there are new reports, results or at bare minimum corroborative sources to claims made my Vickers. Virgilanthony (talk) 23:18, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
@NebY - seems like a simple Google search shows Miranda Vickers as an author of Albanology, she has written quite a bit on Albanians and heavily from an Albanian point of view - for example she's also penned pieces on the Cham issue. Raises eyebrows re: potential bias in her reporting of the Greek minority. She does also note that high figures are questionable because they'd have to include Aromanians and other Orthodox Christians - a argument Albanians have long used without much proof when lowering Greek estimates in the country. Virgilanthony (talk) 23:53, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
Furthermore, while the 200,000 figure and Jeffries is a well known source, and has been cross referenced on others, the Miranda Vickers report is not. Virgilanthony (talk) 23:01, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
@Virgilanthony: this is not how we discuss sources. The question "how does X author know that statement A is true?" isn't something which can be asked in the context of WP:RS. Vickers and Jeffries are equally reliable sources and just as we wouldn't ask such a question for Jeffries, we won't ask it for Vickers - who, for the record, writes for a better known publisher. @NebY: I can work with such a wording. FierakuiVërtet you can may add the part about the 1989 census before this sentence. As of 2022, The World Factbook places the number of Greeks in Albania as 0.9% of the total population in 3,095,344 = 27,858[10]. Based on it we can further add that As of 2022, The World Factbook places the total number of Greeks in Albania as ca. 28,000 or ~1% of the country's population.--Maleschreiber (talk) 23:19, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
That's why it was easier to keep it as it was, because now we're just going to add a huge paragraph about all sorts of sources. It should be between 45,000 to 200,000 - which recognises all the sources mentioned in this page, and include a footnote that highlights contention around numbers, issues of migration etc. That way Albanians like yourself, who prefer lower figures, would be recognised and those who prefer the overall bigger question and inclusion of other estimates and sources like myself, be included.
World Factbook is not a reliable source. Virgilanthony (talk) 23:23, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
@Virgilanthony It would be voluntary misleading information. Those two numbers without context (dates, socio-economic changes) cannot be accepted. Besides, stop with this rethoric about other editor's nationality because i don't think you are a third part in here. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 23:39, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
@Maleschreiber I think it is perfect and thanks for providing an additional up-to-date source. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 23:30, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
The World Factbook is simply based on the heavily criticized and boycotted 2011 census. The census was not only boycotted by minorities, but also threatened jail to anyone that answered incorrectly [11]. This has been noted and criticized by the Council of Europe The Advisory Committee considers that the mere threat of a fine constitutes an intimidating factor and gravely compromises the right to self-identification of persons belonging to national minorities. This view was confirmed by representatives of national minorities, who discussed this issue at length with the Advisory Committee. In this context, the Advisory Committee regrets to note that a number of organisations representing national minorities called for the boycott of the census. At the time of the adoption of this Opinion, the Advisory Committee is not in a position to ascertain how many persons refused to answer the question on ethnicity (nationality) and whether the threat of a fine influenced the persons who did answer this question. However, given the possibility of applying fines and the resulting calls for a boycott of the census, the Advisory Committee considers that the results of the census must be viewed with the utmost caution and calls on the authorities not to rely exclusively on the data on nationality collected during the census in determining its policy on national minorities.. So much for the 2011 "census". Khirurg (talk) 23:43, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
Exactly this, Thanks @Khirurg, take note @Maleschreiber. We cannot use the Factbook finding as it's the Census that even Albanians aren't keen on adopting. Virgilanthony (talk) 23:44, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
@Maleschreiber World Factbook isn't reliable alone, and that figure is based on the 2011 Census which was boycotted and questioned, and @SilentResident commented on it earlier. So your compromise wording wouldn't work. Virgilanthony (talk) 23:33, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
I don't have any POV in this matter and it's not about finding "a middle ground", but about representing bibliography correctly to the best of our ability. Jeffries (2000): ~200k, Georgiou (2004): "the vast majority have left to Greece", Vickers (2010): 45-50k, CIA World Factbook: 28k. There's a progression in what bibliography discusses and it corroborates the demographic reduction of this community. @Virgilanthony: What it's based on or not isn't something which can be directly investigated, but in any case what is being examine is the view of the The World Factbook, which itself is a reliable source.--Maleschreiber (talk) 23:39, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
CIA World Factbook also once said 280,000 (also mentioned on Jeffries source) because it uses government data, so the 0.9% you mention is because that's what the 2011 Albanian census showed and that census cannot be used as @SilentResident was mentioning earlier due to the boycotts, and unreliability not to mention the comments by the Council of Europe etc.
So the best way forward if it's not a direct revert to the 200,000 mark is including a broad range, with a footnote/expansion if needed. Virgilanthony (talk) 23:42, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
@Virgilanthony The 280,000 figure was quoted by Jeffries therefore it regards the period prior 2000. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 23:47, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
Yes, but I included it to highlight my point re: CIA Factbook, that it uses Govt data and therefore the 28K @Maleschreiber notes from it is anything but reliable considering it's related to the 2011 census that is questioned. Virgilanthony (talk) 23:49, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
It is finding middle ground. That's what the whole 'edit war' has been about, from the quotation of the source until the spurious edits. This is because there are numerous sources and conflicting numbers. Virgilanthony (talk) 23:43, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
The low figure of 28k is not directly form the CIA Factbook, but from the 2011 census, which was manipulated to reduce minority numbers, threatened respondents with jail, and was criticized by the Council of Europe at utterly unreliable [12] as far as minorities are concerned. Khirurg (talk) 23:47, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
Yes but the CIA Factbook uses Govt data for their details. Virgilanthony (talk) 23:48, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
I am referring to the artificially low figure of 28k, which is not from the CIA Factbook, but from the unreliable 2011 census. That figure has no place in the article anywhere. That's all. Khirurg (talk) 23:52, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
Yes, but the CIA Factbook's low figure is based on the Albanian records with the latest being from 2011 census, so they are tied. Virgilanthony (talk) 23:54, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
The World Factbook chose to use specific stats and didn't choose to use others. You may criticize them from your perspective but this doesn't delegitimize it as a source. The 28k figure is simply 0.9% of ca. 3,095,344 individuals. The 2011 census counted 24k Greeks.--Maleschreiber (talk) 23:53, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
Nah, we both know the artificially low figure of 28k is from the census. The CIA Factbook is a WP:TERTIARY source, it collates info from other sources, it does not make it's own estimates. Khirurg (talk) 00:01, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
And if you want to talk demographics, there aren't anywhere near 3m people in total in Albania, as of 2022 it's probably closer to 2m, given the record high outmigration and collapsing fertility. Probably one reason the new census hasn't been released yet. Khirurg (talk) 00:03, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
  • If you don't want to use the World Factbook, we're still left with this: In the late 1990s and early 2000s, most Western estimates of the number of ethnic Greeks in Albania were around 200,000 Since then, many migrated to Greece and in 2010 the early 2010s, it was generally accepted that about 45-50,000 ethnic Greeks lived in Albania. The point is that the infobox cannot claim that there are 200k Greeks living in Albania because this isn't accepted in bibliography. Infoboxes discuss the most recent figure which comes from 2010 (if you don't want to use census data - which do have to be discussed in the article itself) and it is 45-50k (2010). There's a limit to what can be debated and we should be reasonable in what we ask. There are two more days to decide about it but there's nothing in WP:RS which allows for the 200k figure to be used in the infobox, so it can't be reinstated.--Maleschreiber (talk) 23:53, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
    That's quite bold, is this correct @SilentResident? Virgilanthony (talk) 23:56, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
    @Maleschreiber: You don't get to decide what gets reinstated or not. That will be decided by consensus, not you. There are sources from as late as 2006 that "most Western estimates are at 200,000" [13]. The artificially low figures from the 2011 census though, those are out. Khirurg (talk) 23:57, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
    Agreed with this. Virgilanthony (talk) 23:58, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.

(undinent) Source from 2019 that there are 70,000 Greeks in Albania according to the Albanian government and 200,000 according to Greece [14]. By an Albanian author, no less. Khirurg (talk) 00:00, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Very interesting find indeed @Khirurg. Further point that the suggestions by @FierakuiVërtet and@Maleschreiber are far from a consensus reached. That's why something that is a broad estimated range that encompasses all is best going forward, if a revert isn't. Virgilanthony (talk) 00:02, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
The first one is a book co-written by Jeffries in 2006 and it's repeating the same figures as in 2002 and the book written by an "Albanian author" (Elez Biberaj) was published in 1998. Routledge republished it in 2019. We will decide by consensus, but consensus can't be that we'll discard the most recent data in order to use 20-year-old data. As of 2022, there aren't more than 25k Greeks in Albania - and this is something which all those who know the subject well realize. We should be reasonable as overinflated internet figures can't change reality itself and can only confuse readers.--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:04, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
Now you are bringing your own opinion into this, that's the problem. As much as you are trying to have no POV, you are having a POV. Virgilanthony (talk) 00:06, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
While there have been suggestions in reflect all sources and estimates from then to the now, you have not been open to them but rather focused on the low estimates which come from a census we cannot use, a factbook that collates information - incl. directly from govt, and an author that has written extensively from an Albanian perspective and adopted an Albanian narrative of inflated numbers - without corroborating further. This was what the spurious editor previously did, focused very hard to ensuring only one figure is mentioned, irrespective of the question surrounding the figure and source. Virgilanthony (talk) 00:09, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
What can be debated according to existing bibliography: In the late 1990s and early 2000s, most Western estimates of the number of ethnic Greeks in Albania were around 200,000 Since then, many migrated to Greece and in 2010 the early 2010s, it was generally accepted that about 45-50,000 ethnic Greeks lived in Albania. There are a couple more days to figure out the details, but this is a baseline.--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:09, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
I'm confused as to how you are able to decide baselines, end results etc. Can @SilentResident please inform for those of us new to all this.
But thanks for avoiding the rebuttals, it really raises eyebrows. Virgilanthony (talk) 00:11, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
The baseline is what bibliography discusses and the end result is that if we have one source published in 2002 which argues for X figure and another in 2010 which argues for Y figure then the normal editing procedure requires from us to compare and contrast them in chronological order. --Maleschreiber (talk) 00:15, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
@Virgilanthony: He doesn't get to decide "baselines" or anything else for that matter. That's just how he talks to create an air of inevitability and demoralize his opponents. Don't fall for it. Also don't fall for the "I don't have a specific POV" type stuff. Contribs histories speak for themselves. Khirurg (talk) 00:17, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
I can see that. I am also intrigued when @Maleschreiber is engaging, @FierakuiVërtet is silent. And vice versa. In any case, we're here about reverting to what it was. Otherwise, your source which is more recent than his, would become the baseline, if we go by @Maleschreiber way of thought. Virgilanthony (talk) 00:18, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
Not necessarily, because as @Khirurg showed, you can find others that are different. And especially on a delicate topic as this, and the context etc, that's not a straight forward way nor is there consensus in that. I wait for others to comment on this. Virgilanthony (talk) 00:17, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
@Virgilanthony I suggest you stop insulting me because you are obviously not neutral about this topic and i will report you if you continue with degradating speech. Accusing others of POV doesn't make you neutral per se. I hope you are able to understand this.
Besides @Khirurg just contested the 24,000 figure, not the explainatory sentence, which is due in order to give a true neutral context to the estimates instead of providing a malicious, misleading range 45,000 - 200,000 without context. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 00:18, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
I am not neutral in the sense of adopting your way of thinking, your sources and only yours. That's all. You are known to be problematic on this site apparently, so let's leave it at that. Virgilanthony (talk) 00:19, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.


The matter isn't delicate per se and nobody considers it delicate in real life as of 2022. If there are other sources which discuss something else, they can be represented but no other international publications have been brought forward. That's the case.--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:23, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
Yes it is when you have Albanian editors hellbent on using lower figures, failing to address the biger picture etc. You still won't answer to points that @Khirurg raised - on you getting to decide what stays and doesn't? Are you @FierakuiVërtet? Yes they have, you just have opted to ignore them. @Khirurg put one. The other sources are international, if old. As for Miranda Vickers, that's one source that is unknown internationally as evident from her long writing on Albanians yet little to no history of corroborating or being used elsewhere. Virgilanthony (talk) 00:25, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
I'm pretty sure that I'm not but you can certainly file a report at WP:SPI and ask about it. But if you repeat this statement again I will ask for admin oversight as it is considered a form of WP:ASPERSION to insinuate that an editor has two accounts. We discuss sources according to WP:RS. Your claim that X author is "unknown internationally" isn't something which can be used as an argument. Talkpages aren't chats so I'll allow you to think about the subject and continue the discussion at some other time. The protection will last for two more days and afterwards my advice is to work towards an actual consensus.--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:35, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
@Virgilanthony Calling yourself neutral doesn't make you neutral. All editors that accused me of POV are actually Greek, so i don't think you should take that (ingenuely) as a fact. I could say the same thing about you all based on your edit histories.
An explanatory sentence with proper context is due. You instead are proposing a misleading range 45,000-200,000 without any context. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 00:29, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
This is personally the last time I engage with you.
The range as I mentioned, ndoshta nuk kupton Anglisht, encompasses ALL figures ever included on ALL sources ever mentioned on the article before your spurious edits, and this Talk.
You have an agenda, it's clear, naten e mire. You are not able to engage with others unless they adhere to your desires. Virgilanthony (talk) 00:34, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
You weren't happy then, you aren't happy now, you won't be happy when the page is reverted. A consensus is not what you seek nor one that seems achievable with you. That's the simple fact one garners from your postings. Virgilanthony (talk) 00:35, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
The upper bound of 200,000 is actually entirely reasonable, considering there are multiple sources backing it, and that many migrants to Greece regularly move back and forth between Greece and Albania. Everyone knows this. Khirurg (talk) 00:35, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
Exactly. In addition, it is a historical number which must be respected due to Albania's treatment of ethnic minorities, and the history surrounding Albania's treatment and what not. Hence it is a delicate topic, which @Maleschreiber refuted... if it wasn't, why are we engaging in this for close to a week? Virgilanthony (talk) 00:37, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
There have been more sources highlighting the 200,000 figure over the course of history than there have highlighting the unreliable census data from 1989 (only 99 villages), 2011 and contemporary author reporting like Miranda Vickers - even though she also recognises the 200,000 figure in one way or another. Virgilanthony (talk) 00:39, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
@Khirurg The source you provided Biberaj (2019) is dealing with Greeks in the early 1990s. That straight-up cherry-picking. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 00:39, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
  • Georgiou, Myria (2004), Mapping Minorities and their Media: The National Context – Greece, London School of Economics: The Greek case is unique in the way it has attracted large numbers of legal and illegal migrants, but also about 2 million ethnic Greeks (Pontians, Greeks from Albania), by successive waves through the late 20th century (Tsoukala, 1999). The long and adventurous 20th century history of migration in Greece can be drawn by period: 1922-23: 1.25 million ethnic Greek refugees from Asia Minor 1950’s- ’70s: 200,000 Greeks from Turkey, Zaire, Lebanon, Egypt 1974+: 150,000 Greek Cypriot refugees 1949 – present: return of 33,500 Greek political refugees, especially from Eastern Europe 1960’s with large boom after 1989: 70,000 Pontic Greeks – 15,000 arrivals a year 1990’s: The vast majority of the 200,000 ethnic Greeks from Albania
  • Vickers, Miranda (2010)The Greek Minority in Albania – Current Tensions, Defence Academy of the United Kingdom, ISBN-13: 978-1-905962-79-2 : Estimates of the ethnic Greek minority in Albania range from two to seven percent of the total population, but the generally accepted view is that today there are approximately between 45-50,000 ethnic Greeks in Albania, roughly 2 percent of the total Albanian population.
    • Thus, it's not reasonable to include such a figure on the infobox as it's not recent and it refers to a situation which even authors who use the same figure, argue that it didn't exist any longer in the next period.--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:40, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
    Not persuasive enough, nor is there consensus with your desire. Especially the 2004 report, that really is extremely broad for it to feature in this particular debate. And 2010 Vickers, no corroboration, and not the most recent wither as @Khirurgpointed out. Virgilanthony (talk) 00:41, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
If you find it persuasive or not isn't a matter of debate in the context of how we write articles. It's what bibliography discusses and we decide which sources to use per WP:RS, which you should read as the sources above are well within what is considered a "reliable source". --Maleschreiber (talk) 00:45, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
Then we can just use other sources, that are more recent, to change the figure. Going by your process. But i really want @SilentResident to comment on your bold statements about baselines, and what can and cant be reinstated. Don't think you have any authority to decide. Virgilanthony (talk) 00:46, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
Then we can just use other sources, that are more recent, to change the figure : Find them then and make sure that they are WP:RS. This is what forms the baseline and what decides what can be reinstated or not: reliable sources.--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:49, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
  • Concil of Europe, 2012 ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON THE FRAMEWORK CONVENTION FOR THE PROTECTION OF NATIONAL MINORITIES, 2012: However, given the possibility of applying fines and the resulting calls for a boycott of the census, the Advisory Committee considers that the results of the census must be viewed with the utmost caution and calls on the authorities not to rely exclusively on the data on nationality collected during the census in determining its policy on national minorities. Khirurg (talk) 00:59, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
    These two sources (Bideleux & Jeffries 2006) and the council of Europe 2012 form a "baseline". Khirurg (talk) 01:01, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
It's a book co-written by Jeffries in 2006 and it's repeating the same figures as in 2002 but the key point is that it doesn't contradict the version which we worked on and other sources: In the late 1990s and early 2000s, most Western estimates of the number of ethnic Greeks in Albania were around 200,000. Since then, many migrated to Greece and in 2010 the early 2010s, it was generally accepted that about 45-50,000 ethnic Greeks lived in Albania. The census isn't even mentioned in the version we worked on so I'm not sure to what exactly it's a reply. You didn't contradict Georgiou (2004) or Vickers (2010).--Maleschreiber (talk) 01:02, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
The fact that it repeats the same figures from 2002 is not a criticism, but rather an endorsement. Vickers is not peer-reviewed and the UK Defense Academy could even be considered WP:SELFPUBLISHED. Khirurg (talk) 01:17, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
Such studies by research branches of big military institutes like the ones in the UK/US are WP:RS. If there are international sources which can be compared and contrasted with Georgiou and Vickers, we can use them. If there aren't, there's no reason to have a prolonged debate. Real life figures won't change no matter what we write and in a year we'll have an official update which - judging by current diplomatic relations between Albania/Greece - won't be disputed by Greece. These matters are an issue of the past in terms of geopolitics and now only concern online debates. -Maleschreiber (talk) 01:33, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
If you want baselines, then @Khirurg is right. Albania's historical issues with the Greek minority means that even Vickers range, which is not corroborated anywhere else and therefore will be disputed here, are questionable. Albania does not provide the environment for ethnic minorities to declare as they please, and we've seen this evidence in this Talk ^ but also other pages, and off Wikipedia. Therefore the 200,000 revert is good, because it includes the upper estimate, and that Western sources rely on that in part due to Albania's treatment of minorities and recognition of figures. Who's to say that on top of Vickers claim, there are another 50K who are scared to declare as such? @SilentResident earlier revert point was right, until such a time there are real figures etc. Virgilanthony (talk) 01:46, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
Just confirmed that Miranda Vickers is NOT a peer reviewed source, which isn't surprising, hence my points to @NebY earlier about the issue of her writings, so it is to be disputed and should not take precedence of the other sources. Virgilanthony (talk) 01:47, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
I'm sure that Malechreiber and Co. would be absolutely thrilled if I brought a source from a Greek military institute.As for it being a "matter of the past", judging by how many kilobytes of text they are devoting to it, I would say it's anything but. Khirurg (talk) 03:00, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
The use of the Miranda Vickers source is not going to go down well. It can't be used as the default here, in place of Jeffries. Easily ca find Greek-oriented writings in English, from authors, published all over, that can say "it's generally estimated 350,000 Greeks are in Albania". But we shouldn't be opting for tit-for-tat. Virgilanthony (talk) 03:02, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
can* Virgilanthony (talk) 03:02, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
Another important point to keep in mind is that members of the Greek minority in Albania are not "fixed in place" so to speak, but frequently move back and forth between Greece and Albania with ease. It's thus misleading to present their migration to Greece as something permanent and irreversible. In fact, since the economic crisis, this mobility has increased and many have moved back. Khirurg (talk) 03:03, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
Agreed with this. Nor can they prove it - just like the Georgiou (2004) source he referenced couldn't. And that includes Albanians inside Greece, but I notice these editors have no issue with the figures re: Albanians in Greece and the article there stating up to 1 million.
The agenda is clear, and it kind of falls in line with the Council of Europe warnings, and historical Albanian attitudes, from Govt to people, re: Greeks in the country.
That's why the revert to the 200,000 and source is the best way forward. If there was a genuine attempt to respect the overall topic, he and the other editor would accept the wide range for the infobox, but they don't, because it doesn't fit a particular narrative - that's all I can get from it all. Virgilanthony (talk) 03:06, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
Its clear that those trying to shrink the number of Greeks in Albania are following a certain agenda. However it astonishes me how, when their POV is met with opposition here in the talk page, they are accusing us that we too are following agendas. As a matter of fact, I had never tried to go to the article Albanians and attempt to shrink the half million (500.000) Albanians in Greece displayed on its infobox. Yet, the editor FierakuiVërtet who is desperately trying to shrink the number of Greeks in Albania on the article Greeks from 200.000 to merely 60.000 citing an oppressive communist regime's propagandistic figures (and I described this FierakuiVërtet agenda as WP:PROPAGANDA here), they respond here that they "could say exactly the same" about me. Its astonishing how those who support the questionable edits, provide such weak arguments and instead of rebuking our policy-compliant arguments with stronger arguments, are trying to flip the table by claiming that we are doing the same. From the moment the discussion has long concluded, and baseless accusations start from the POV warrior's camp, then to me it is clear that this discussion doesn't need to drag any longer. The edits by FierakuiVërtet lack consensus, are not policy-compliant and will be reverted. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 03:30, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
Thank you. Agreed. It's unfortunate but it's clear, and sadly Maleschreiber has followed suit - albeit more toned, and relying on a non peer reviewed source, and refusing a broader estimation that respects all sources since he and the other are unhappy with the 200,000 figure and source. Shrug. Virgilanthony (talk) 03:34, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
Since we all agree on the figure of 200,000 for the mid 2000s, but given that an unknown and constant fluctuating number having migrated to Greece, though moving back and forth, one possibility is to leave the figure of 200,000 and add a note mentioning that this figure includes both those currently in Albania and those that have since migrated to Greece. This should satisfy all reasonable concerns. Khirurg (talk) 04:15, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
Yes, agreed. That works great. We can even add, for the sake of respect to all sources, that figures vary - as they do. Then readers will have to go to the designated page re: Greeks in Albania, to see the full picture, explore further sources and debates regarding the community. Virgilanthony (talk) 04:17, 15 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.
That is not a figure for the mid 2000s. Jeffries first gives the figure of 200,000 in a book published in 2002 as most Western estimates are around the 200,000 mark.[[15]] He states that while describing events of 1993, shading into 1994, which he describes in the present tense - the historical present. In the book he co-authored in 2006, he used the past tense and situated it very clearly:Greek-Albanian relations deteriorated seriously during the early 1990s. It is difficult to know how many ethnic Greeks there were in Albania before the exodus of refugees during the early to mid-1990s. The Albanian government claimed there were only 60,000, based on the biased 1989 census, whereas the Greek government claimed there were upwards of 300,000. Most Western estimates were around the 200,000 mark (Independent, 25 August 1993, p.15)[16]. We then have Georgiou reporting that in the 1990s the vast majority of the 200,000 ethnic Greeks from Albania migrated to Greece. NebY (talk) 11:31, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
Like how I have said above: the figure 200,000 will have to be reinstated, with a year estimate in parenthesis. For example something like "Albania: 200,000 (1990)". To alleviate any POV concerns, a footnote stating that a mass migration happened ever since, can be added next to it as well. And if any WP:RS confirming their repatriation following the Greek economic crisis also exists, their return to Albania may be mentioned as well in that footnote. Simple as that. We may not report fringe numbers, or the former communist regime's census which falls under WP:PROPAGANDA. Anything less than that goes against the guidelines, will not make their way to the article. Simple as that. The year of estimates in parenthesis i.e. (1990), is in line with WP:NPOV as it avoids implying that they are as many today in the country, and a footnote also gives a brief, yet neutrally-worded description for those readers seeking it. This is the best we can do there, and is the one that meets Wikipedia's WP:RS criteria and is a temporary solution until a new, more reliable population census is conducted by the authorities in the Republic of Albania. If the new census is assessed by the European authorities and international organizations to be fair and accurate, without political intervention, only then Wikipedia may be updated accordingly. I can't imagine how Albania would fail the new census considering that this year it became a candidate country for EU membership and this Summer 2022 it begun membership negotiations, and among the conditions for a successful EU membership bid is the conduct of a free, fair and reliable census in line with the EU's criteria. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 12:50, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
So that might give us:
  • Infobox
    • Albania: 200,000 (c. 1990 estimate)
    • using {{circa}} per MOS:APPROXDATE, otherwise in accord with other estimates in the infobox eg (2011 estimate). (2015 estimate)
    • referencing and quoting Bideleux & Jeffries 2006 It is difficult to know how many ethnic Greeks there were in Albania before the exodus of refugees during the early to mid-1990s. The Albanian government claimed there were only 60,000, based on the biased 1989 census, whereas the Greek government claimed there were upwards of 300,000. Most Western estimates were around the 200,000 mark
  • Article body (para 3 of Greeks#Demographics)
    • Currently "There is a sizeable Greek minority of approximately 200,000 people in Albania." The present tense is problematic.
    • We don't want to belabour it but within a single sentence we can say that the sizeable minority was about 200,000 c. 1990 and there has been much migration since. If that's broadly agreeable, we can work on phrasing it.
    • We could cite Bideleux & Jeffries 2006 and Georgiou 2004. Anything else?
    • Khirurg seems to be opposed to providing Vickers' 2010 figure. SilentResident seems to be opposed to providing any more recent estimate at all.
Is this broadly agreeable? NebY (talk) 13:55, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
Yes, that will work. Thank you. Khirurg (talk) 15:08, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

NebY: you have stated that "SilentResident seems to be opposed to providing any more recent estimate at all." however I am not sure how you mean it. My opposition is in response to the actions of a POV warrior trying to replace the widely-agreed 200,000 for the 1990s with one fitting their anti-Greek POV. Had there been attempts to make changes on Greek population estimates by another uninvolved editor without editorial bias and edit-warring, I wouldn't even give a damn about it and wouldn't even be there on this talk page at all. Most third-party estimates use the 200,000 mark but that's too old already and newer, reliable ones, are needed soon or later, but not under such problematic circumstances where editors from the Albania topic area edit-war their POV to the article about population figures of a minority which was oppressed and suffered in Albania. Wikipedia ought to reflect on reliable sources, but political agendas have no place here.

I would happily accept even the newer estimates, provided that this sensitive topic is dealt with by someone such as you. Coz my only other option is to revert all changes by myself back to last stable version - because in case none here has realized it already - the article is currently locked to a version which is the outcome of edit-warring between a POV Warrior and a Sockpuppet. The one is warned with a ban and the other has already received a ban. Good day.--- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 23:04, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Thank you; I can keep trying. It is always complicated when we take into account other editors' agendas. On the plus side, I think we now have two administrators alert to edit-warring here, and not just to breaches of WP:3RR either. I'm glad you're open to using additional figures if appropriate; I did fear I hadn't read you closely enough, just as I discovered that I hadn't read either Jeffries (2002) or Bideleux and Jeffries (2006) closely enough - though maybe I wasn't alone in that!
If my infobox suggestions are acceptable, maybe I can now offer two possible sentences for that body text, drawing on sources offered so far.
  1. Around 1990, most Western estimates of the number of ethnic Greeks in Albania were around 200,000 but in the 1990s, many of them migrated to Greece.(Cite Bideleux & Jeffries 2006 and Georgiou 2004)
  2. Around 1990, most Western estimates of the number of ethnic Greeks in Albania were around 200,000 but in the 1990s, many of them migrated to Greece and in 2010 it was reported to be a generally accepted view that about 45-50,000 ethnic Greeks still lived in Albania.(Cite Bideleux & Jeffries 2006, Georgiou 2004 and Vickers 2010).
Of those three sources, I think we can agree that B&J 2006 is a WP:RS. Georgiou 2004 is less certainly WP:RS despite her status now, but here backs up B&J 2006. The status of Vickers 2010 seems to me to depend on whether we regard the Defence Academy of the United Kingdom as a sufficiently judicious publisher. My own rough impression of Vickers' piece is that if pressed, she might say that 200,000 was a high estimate in 1990, as the situation was and is simply too complicated for confidence. It would be great if we could simply skip to a post-2015 figure instead. So are one or both of these sentences acceptable - or none? NebY (talk) 00:17, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
I think the first sentence is better. I would amend to Around 1990,most Western estimates of the number of ethnic Greeks in Albania were around 200,000, but since the collapse of the Communist regime in 1991, many of them migrated to Greece., but otherwise it's fine. I do remember finding a post-2015 source that stated that many moved back and forth between Greece and Albania, and that since the Greek economic crisis some had even moved back to Albania, but I am having trouble finding it. I'll see if I can dig it up. Khirurg (talk) 01:13, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
That would be interesting; though of course not necessarily the end of anyone's migrations, it would bring us nearer the present day. I'm a little mindful that what's merely explanatory background to one person can look like derision to another and that this is a tense area, so I'm inclined not to start talking about regime change or collapse. NebY (talk) 15:35, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
That's fine. In the meantime your first sentence is fine with me. Only one minor thing: I would change it to "starting in the 1990s, many of them have been migrating to Greece". It was a continuous and gradual and ongoing process, it's not like they all migrated all at once in the 1990s. Khirurg (talk) 16:27, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
That's difficult. Our sources (B&J 2006, Georgiou 2004) only support "in the 1990s", and Georgiou says that most of the 200,000 migrated then. It's also possible that when some have moved back, the net migration has sometimes been into Albania, and I'd quibble about phrasing (individuals have probably not been continually migrating), but the big problem is that we're limited to our sources. NebY (talk) 16:44, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
@NebY: Thanks for the very organized work you're doing. I was very busy in the last couple of days, but I'll post some sources which more or less corroborate the sources we've discussed (Jeffries 2002/2006, Georgiou 2004, Vickers 2010) with more details about the way these figures were produced. For example, the ca. 200k figure refers to the total number of migrants from Albania in Greece who received a special ID card which recognized them as ethnic Greeks from Albania.--Maleschreiber (talk) 17:37, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
Thank you. So far I'd only noticed the 200,000 figure as the number of ethnic Greeks in Albania; I hadn't realised it might also be the number migrating to Greece. I imagine its proper interpretation is challenged too! Still, just now as the page protection draws to an end, I'm hopeful that we four form a consensus for the infobox entry as the bullet-points above and sentence #1 above. Maybe then we can all relax a little; this has been a very long thread for so very few words in the article! NebY (talk) 19:46, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
@NebY @Khirurg Why should Vickers (2010) estimate of 50,000 should not be included (at least) in the body of the article? If i am not wrong, Khirurg's objections was Biberaj (2019). Ties with Greece represent an important aspect of Albania's overall foreign policy. Since the early 1990s, however, sever issues have served as a bone of contention, significantly constraining the expansion of bilateral relations. First, Athens has complained about the treatment of ethnic Greeks in Albania, charging violations of their human and religious rights. It also has alleged that Tiranë was pursuing a systematic policy of forcing ethnic Greeks to leave the country. Although ethnic Greeks, estimated at about 70,000 by Albania and at more than 200,000 by Greece, continued to have some legitimate grievances, particularly regarding Greek-language education, there was no credible evidence that the Albanian government systematically repressed the Greek minority. Many Greeks had indeed fled Albania,46 but they had done so mainly for economic reasons, joining some 300,000 Albanian citizens who had left the country in search of jobs and a better life in Greece By the context and use of past tenses, it seems obvious that in this sentence "estimated at about 70,000 by Albania and at a more than 200,000" the author actually analyzes the 1990s, not 2019. Moreover Biberaj does not quote the Western 200,000 mark (1990), but he actually quotes the old "Greek government/sources estimate", that is more than 200,000 (250,000-300,000). FierakuiVërtet (talk) 20:47, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
As Maleschreiber pointed out, Albania in Transition: The Rocky Road to Democracy, Elez Biberaj, Routledge, 2019, ISBN 0367314444 is a republication of Albania In Transition: The Rocky Road To Democracy, Elez Birbaj, Perseus, 1999, ISBN 0813336880, which saves us the effort of forensic examination. I'd be glad to hear more from Khirurg on their concerns about Vickers (you'll see my own concerns above),and would like to get closer to the present day, but at least we now have infobox and body text ready which is clearer about how far it does go. NebY (talk) 21:37, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
My concerns about Vickers are largely the same as yours. It's not peer-reviewed, unknown fact-checking, and the bibliography it cites is very scanty. At the end of the document it even states that "The views are those of the author only and do not reflect the position of Her Majesty's Government". Regarding the figure of 200,000, there are two separate figures: The figure of Greeks in Albania in 1990, and the 200,000(actually closer to 189,000) special ID cards that Maleschreiber is referring to. The latter figure includes some ethnic Albanians who claimed Greek ethnicity so as to receive the special ID card so as to receive the benefits it gave. Those are two separate figures, otherwise it implies every single Greek in Albania received the special ID, which is obviously not true. Meanwhile, I think we can move forward regarding the infobox. Khirurg (talk) 21:49, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
The disclaimer doesn't bother me at all; it's how government agencies can publish research without it forming an official position for which government ministers would ultimately be accountable. Other publishers (Routledge, Oxford University Press, whoever) take that same position implicitly, government agencies have to spell it out. Similarly, if it was published by Routledge or OUP, we wouldn't usually require that it be peer-review (eg Jeffries's books aren't either); that's only one of the possible criteria for being treated as a WP:RS. The references and bibliography are indeed brief. It seems to me that she was commissioned to prepare this report as an expert on Albania, and she may well have abstracted much of it from her own work, listed in the bibliography. That includes The Albanians: A Modern History (2006), which was revised for a paperback edition in 2014 (ISBN 1780766955). In that edition she might explain, update or go into more detail about "generally accepted view". NebY (talk) 23:01, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
  • Miranda Vickers is considered an expert on Albanian-related topics, hence I believe that if we add a figure on the infobox it has to be one which reflects the most recent estimation. In any case, Vickers (2010) should be discussed in the main article. A figure about the 1990s isn't very informative in the context of an infobox. Another idea is to not include any infobox figure and discuss what needs to be discussed in the main article. The 200k figure refers to holders special ID cards from Albania in Greece, but not to people who actually lived in Albania. It doesn't reflect research in Albania. Harris Mylonas & Marko Žilović (2017) Foreign policy priorities and ethnic return migration policies: group-level variation in Greece and Serbia The total number of Greeks from Albania was around 200,000 in the early 2000s (see Greek Parliament 2005). (..) By 1998, the Greeks from Albania could receive a Special Identification Card issued by the Ministry of Public Order. It was valid for three years, it could be renewed, but it did not extend to the non-Greek origin family members (Ministerial decision no. 4000/3.10.1998). The reasoning in the Ministerial decision was that this way the repatriates from Albania could compete in the labour market on an equal footing (Pavlou 2003, 265–303). Finally, a common Ministerial decision issued in 2005 introduced a ten-year residence permit on top of the Special Identification Card and extended it to the family members irrespectively of their ethnic background. Moreover, a Greek visa was added to their passport, valid until their passport expired. An end to this differential treatment came after 2006 when granting the repatriates from Albania Greek citizenship became possible. --Maleschreiber (talk) 01:48, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
    The figure of 200,000 in Bideleux and Jeffries clearly refers to the number of Greeks who lived in Albania by 1990, not the number of holders of the special ID. Bideleux and Jeffries don't even mention the special ID. This is all the more obvious since the special IDs was not issued until 1998. It is highly dishonest to suggest otherwise. It is also well known that many holders of the special ID are Aromanians from Albania, who identify, or have decided to become Greeks: Konidaris, Gerasimos (2005). "Examining policy responses to immigration in the light of interstate relations and foreign policy objectives: Greece and Albania". In King, Russell; Schwandner-Sievers, Stephanie (eds.). The new Albanian migration. Brighton: Sussex Academic. pp. 84–85: An issue that relates to the above is that in recent years Albanian citizens who can demonstrate adequate knowledge of the Vlach language or Vlach cultural heritage have been recognised by Greece of being of Greek origin. They have consequently enjoyed privileged treatment by the Greek consulates in the issuing of visas. The special ID has nothing to do with the topic at hand anyway, so it's not even clear why you are bringing it up. The consensus figure of 200,000 from Bideleux and Jeffries is the last, unambiguous we have, so it will have to do. By the way, those reading this discussion should be aware that in the past you have tried to increase the number of Albanians in Greece [17], and also decrease the number of Serbs in Kosovo [18]. Just so we have some context here. Khirurg (talk) 04:01, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
The context is that when some editors try to increase the demographics of any groups (e.g. Kosovo Serbs) without sources, I have decreased the figures because this is what bibliography supports. When other editors try to decrease the demographics of the same groups (in this case, Kosovo Serbs) without sources, I have increased the figures [19] for the same reason: it's what bibliography discusses. If some editors take issue with one editing decision (decrease of figures) and insert it in a narrative which doesn't take into account the opposite editing decision (increase of figures), then this informs us more about their own narratives than about the editing context. Now, we should discuss about content. The 200k figure was produced after 1990 and it refers to figures generated based on the 200k figure of special ID holders in Greece. About Vickers (2010), if some editors don't want to add the statement in wikivoice we can write the following sentence: Vickers (2010) reports that the generally accepted view is that c. 45,000-50,000 Greeks lived in Albania at that era I think that this is a reasonable middle ground as in fact, there is no RSN discussion which prohibits the use of Vickers and in fact - per RS - there isn't any legitimate argument to not use it.--Maleschreiber (talk) 16:03, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
Bideleux & Jeffries (2006) refer to Independent, 25 August 1993, p35, which I think predates the issue of so many special ID cards. But we don't need to go there. We have an RS that "most Western estimates were around the 200,000 mark" (and I do note that "were"). It doesn't say what factors and sources were being weighed by the different people making those estimates and we don't need to either.
On the other hand, I think that proposed statement works, except that as we haven't already mentioned Vickers I'd begin it more conventionally for Wikipedia articles, eg In 2010, Miranda Vickers reported that the generally accepted view was that there were currently around 45-50,000 ethnic Greeks in Albania. NebY (talk) 16:34, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
If the 2010 figure is to be added, then it should also be mentioned that since the Greek economic crisis (which started in 2010), some members of the Greek minority have returned to Albania. Sources: [20] [21]. Khirurg (talk) 16:58, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
The first source says "However, in recent years, due to the economic crisis in Greece, members of the Greek minority returned to Albania and re-opened two schools in the prefecture of Agioi Saranta in villages that had been closed due to the "mass exit" to Greece (Rapti, 2014)", which doesn't provide direct evidence of a notable number of people returning. Does the second (a diploma thesis written for a master's course, but apparently not published in a journal) have anything more substantial? My Greek is doubly ancient and the English-lnguage abstract makes no reference to returnees. NebY (talk) 18:24, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
@NebY: I agree; it's misleading for this quote to be used in the article to imply something which can't be inferred from the source. There are yearly stats in all municipalities in Albania and there's nothing at all which shows a statistical increase of the population in the areas where mainly Greeks live in Albania[22]. Without consensus, this was added in the article and should be removed.--Maleschreiber (talk) 20:52, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
Vullnetari, J. (2012). Albanian Migration and Development. In Albania on the Move: Links between Internal and International Migration (pp. 59-106). Amsterdam University Press. doi:10.1017/9789048514939.004 [23] Generally, population losses are higher in the south, where they are reinforced by significantly lower fertility rates than in the north (King & Vullnetari 2003). In addition, rural depopulation in some southern districts where ethnic-Greek Albanians originate has been intense as this minority group has been more easily able to obtain documents for travelling to Greece. It's a big stretch to draw a conclusion about a "return" of Greeks, when statistical data and recent sources (after 2010) show that this didn't materialize. @Maleschreiber: @NebY: Since Georgiou writes that the "vast majority" went to Greece, isn't it better to use this term instead of the term "many" which diverges from the original quote?Alltan (talk) 01:37, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
  • @Alltan: I chose the phrasing "many", but I don't mind if we use the same exact term as the source. I recognize the qualitative differences between the two terms.--Maleschreiber (talk) 02:04, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
    Because other sources don't use "vast majority", and using one's preferred wording would be an example of WP:CHERRY, not to mention WP:POV. Best to use neutral, general wording. Khirurg (talk) 03:44, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
The partial return of Greeks in southern Albania that had previously been in Greece is sourced. Even Greek schools opened to facilitate the increasing number. Maleschreiber: the link you offered [[24]] provides data of the general population (no Greek minority figures) and does not reject this well cited information in bibliography. It's not a strong argument at all.Alexikoua (talk) 04:28, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
It's misleading WP:SYNTH to follow the migration of many/most of 200,000 with a report that two village schools have reopened; that only takes a handful of determined parents. NebY (talk) 15:52, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
Possible wording includes, in rough order of implied magnitude or emphasis
  • many
  • a majority of
  • most
  • the majority of
  • the vast majority of.
Bearing in mind (while recognising the questions around those figures, and that mixing figures from disparate sources is generally dangerous and on Wikipedia risks breaching WP:SYNTH) those estimates of 200,000 c.1990 and 45-50,00 in 2010, a reduction of about 75% but with a great deal of uncertainty, I think I slightly prefer "a majority of" or "most". NebY (talk) 16:08, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
Either "a majority of" or "most" work represent faithfully the original text.--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:21, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
 Done cautiously, using "a majority of". NebY (talk) 16:04, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Albania - 200,000 revert please

I would ask the administrators or other credible editors to revert the figure to 200,000 estimate as this is clearly mentioned in sources on and off Wikipedia. We cannot allow personal views and nationalist ideologies to tarnish pages and talk sections. The consensus on the Greeks in Albania is that while difficult to get the full picture, Albania has been home to a sizeable Greek minority numbering around 200,000. I urge fellow readers to look on Google Scholar and other academic outlets and find numerous sources, from Albania, Greece and others that mention this and explain further. It's quite shocking to see the edit history of the page in the last few weeks. Kiwieuro2022 (talk) 02:06, 14 December 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock:Virgiliosarvanitis.

Informed now [25] the Admin who raised article protection to have the WP:PROPAGANDA edit by FierakuiVërtet reverted. Edit: I feel obliged to inform you that I do not hold the rank of Administrator in the English version of Wikipedia. I am specifically addressing your mistake in your comment above, [26] where you called me an Admin. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 12:10, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
Kiwieuro2022 is a new account which was created on December 9 and has very few edits. This might have to be discussed at WP:SPI--Maleschreiber (talk) 15:23, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
Thank you for bringing this to my attention. It cannot be ignored that although the editor has made certain to be honest in notifying us that that they are a new account, [27] the timing of their activity [28] coincides with this present article's edit war: [29]. Normally, I wouldn't WP:BITE but this is a worrisome sign that cannot be ignored. A SPI is recommended as the use of multiple accounts to influence talk page discussions goes against the Wikipedia's guidelines. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 16:31, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

In Albania in the 21st century

I've gone ahead and edited the infobox and the first sentence of para 3 of Greeks#Demographics, the infobox as the bulletpoint above and the sentence as sentence #1 above, pending further discussion. My edit summary ends "we are still discussing what we can say about the situation in the 21st century", so I'm hoping any other interested editors will come here. We're still short of sources for numbers of ethnic Greeks in Albania in the 21st century.

We are likely to wait for quite sometime before we get valuable data and reliable sources about ethnic Greeks currently inside Albania. This is because of the issue with censuses in Albania, the fluctuating migration of ethnic Greeks between Albania and Greece and the cooperation of the ethnic minority. Readers should note there is a difference between Greeks of Albania / Greeks from Albania and Greeks in Albania. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.69.102 (talk) 00:49, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

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