Talk:Flight and expulsion of Germans from Poland during and after World War II/Archive 1

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Lower Silesia in 1943? Certainly not.Xx236 11:33, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Starting in March 1945 the first expulsions were initiated

Not from Poland.Xx236 11:38, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Posen?

The city is Poznań and region is Wielkopolska (Greater Poland). There is no reason to use German names.Xx236 11:40, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Right. I changed Posen and Stettin to Poznań and Szczecin. Is there a place where we should be using Wielkopolska? --Richard 18:12, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand the original sentence. Stettin was a German city, Posen - both the city of Poznań and the region of Wielkopolska - were Polish 1918-1939 and had only a German minority. Which common problems had both regions? Maybe the author called Posen the part of annexed Germany between Wielkopolska and Odra - now called Ziemia Lubuska?Xx236 13:40, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't know enough to give you a definitive answer but I wonder if he meant Province of Posen. Would that resolve the difficulty? --Richard 15:58, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Certainly not because the quoted article describes the time till 1918. But the original statement misinforms, Lower Silesia had more Germans, East Prussia also had problems. The name Posen, which probably means future Zielona Góra Voivodeship organized in 1950, is mentioned here accidentally and should be removed.Xx236 07:28, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
it would be helpful if he cited the sentences in question so ppl would know what he's talking about.
--Jadger 17:03, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you XX for removing your personal attack from this discussion page [1], but whom was it aimed at? me or Richard?

--Jadger 07:47, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Jadger, I have enough of your continous ad personam comments ansd spying of my edits. You behave as a stocker. Choose a subject, write a good quality article - this is Wkipedia is for, not for your personal racist pleasure of bashing Slavic people. Xx236 08:09, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

just a couple of points:
  • you were the one that wrote the personal attack.
  • the correct term is stalker, I do not work on Wall street. And I would like to ask you to assume good faith, not assume I "spy" on your edits (which BTW are in the free open space).
  • I guess what they say is true, "no good deed goes unpunished", I guess I won't thank you again for anything, since it seems you'll just bite my head off.
--Jadger 08:21, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
    • Re: " . . . not for your personal racist pleasure of bashing Slavic people. Xx236 08:09, 4 April 2007 (UTC)", WHAT PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY BOOK proclaims that "the Slavs" are a "race"? . . . a meta-ethnic group maybe. "Slavs as a race" is the type of concept usage that was widely discredited following the end of WW2. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.106.18.161 (talk)

The Soviet Union transferred territories to the east of the Oder-Neisse Line to Poland in July 1945

Theoretically. In reality Soviet commanders controlled areas and plants. Part of Legnica remained under Soviet administration till 1990, the same a big training area and many airfields. Areas were gradually released, plants mostly after looting. Sometimes the Soviets regained plants and looted them for the second time. Xx236 11:58, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

So, how would you suggest that we change the current text? --Richard 18:13, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

collecting all Germans into forced labour camps

all? Babies too?Xx236 12:41, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Good point. Presumably, this is all able-bodied German men. Can someone who can read German check what the "Vertreibung" article in Meyers Lexikon Online says? --Richard 18:06, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Casualties

  • Was Koenigsberg area excluded?

Silesian Czechs were transferred to Czechoslovakia. Xx236 12:44, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Historical context

The article doesn't inform that:

  • the Communist government was imposed to Poles by superpowers. It executed Soviet orders rather than represented the nation. Xx236 13:34, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
This doesn't require sourcing. Either fix it yourself or propose the text here first for discussion. --Richard 18:03, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
  • there was no police in Poland - the Blue police was dissolved and Milicja Obywatelska created from uneducated people, frequently criminals, to fight anti-Communists rather than criminals. Xx236 13:34, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Please propose some text. I think this would need citations to support it but I assume that there would be little objection to it. --Richard 18:03, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Polish administration in regained lands was very weak, frequently organized by criminals who run away after succesfull looting. Xx236 13:34, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
This should be sourced but, once again, I assume that there would be little objection to it.
--Richard 18:03, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

In Poland the situation was not better

Why should it be better? Poland was the main victim and enemy of Germany, Czechoslovakia wasn't. Poland was under SOviet occupation, Czechoslovakia wasn't. Poland lacked administration and police, Czechoslovakia had both. The sentence proves that de Zayas doesn't have any idea about WWII in this part of Europe.Xx236 13:39, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

yet you fail to back up your assertions with any sources yourself.
--Jadger 17:24, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Xx236, I think you are making too much of what appears to be a rheteorical flourish. However, since the sentence in question adds nothing to the line of argument in that section, I have removed it. --Richard 18:18, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

General comments

The article informs also about facts from other countries.

Glaz, Milecin, Potulitz are German names, not linked to real places. There exist articles about Polish-communist camps, not linked. There existed Soviet camps in Poland, not mentioned.

pan-Slavism - a funny comment by an ignorant coming from the other side of the Ocean. Poles and Czechs were prepared to fight in Silesia, there were Polish-Ukrasinian fights and civil Polish-Polish war in Poland supported by Soviet units. Many guards were Jewish (see Sacks). The main victims of the expulsion were Slavic Silesians, sometimes Polish nationalists from Germany were expelled. Czechs, Sorbs and small tribes from Pomerania were expelled.

Romanians, Hungarians, Lithuanians aren't Slavic. Xx236 06:30, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Wow, did you mistype? or did you actually mean what you said that in the expulsion of Germans, the main victims were not Germans, but Slavs? I also notice that you fail to cite a source for your assertions yet again.
--Jadger 07:11, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Slavic Silesians were put into camps (Zgoda, Łambinowice), deported to the Soviet Union. OK, let's correct to One of the main victims.Xx236 08:25, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Polish nationalists were persecuted more actively than Germans.

The question is basic. According to experts Polish government was nationalistic and the expulsion was implementation of POlish nationalism. If you check other articles in this Wiki, you can find accusations that Polish nationalists collaborated with Germans - in fact the Brygada Świętokrzyska was tolerated by Germans, who allowed them to run away from Poland - so Polish nationalists run from Polish nationalistic state - strange. Polish nationalists were arrested and tortured, many killed. With all due respect to German victims - the majority of them died as the result of anarchy and common criminality rather than planned actions. Xx236 06:51, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

have you never heard of there being "exceptions to the rule"? you are misrepresenting what is stated in the article, and taking it to mean something it does not. Just because a person agreed with a certain political doctrine (polish nationalism) did not mean they were free from the atrocities committed on others (arrested and tortured) during this time period.
--Jadger 07:14, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

pan-Slavism still there

I have given several arguments against pan-Slavism claim. The sentence shold be removed, because it's false. The resons of the revenge were elementary, not based on some ideology. Xx236 09:53, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I have to confess that I didn't understand your earlier comment about "pan-Slavism" and I still don't. Perhaps I could figure it out if I re-read the article closely but a quick skim of the article has failed to identify the sentence in question. Can you please cite the section heading that the sentence in question comes under and quote the sentence itself? Thanks. --Richard 14:35, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I mean the second part of the sentence: " pan-Slavism had supplanted pan-Germanism.[6]". Either it should be removed or commented, that de Zayas misinforms. Shlomo Morel wasn't pan-Slavic, for sure.Xx236 14:41, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Without coming down on one side or the other about the truth of the sentence, it's just not relevant to the overall topic of internment camps so I removed it from the quote. --Richard 14:47, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

anyone who is reading this for information will know that Poland and the USSR were communist

Really? How do you know this?Xx236 09:15, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

because it is an accepted peace of history. Hence why the German armed forces in WWII are commonly called the German Wehrmacht and not Wehrmacht of the German nation which was under the rule of the National Socialist German Workers Party. and plus, if the reader did not know that, they could click on the link to Poland and find that out.
--Jadger 06:32, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Poland started collecting all Germans into forced labour camps

The law says lists members of family living together with as an another cathegory, so it seems that only or mostly adult men were interned. There exists an additional law "ROZPORZĄDZENIE KIEROWNIKÓW RESORTÓW: SPRAWIEDLIWOŚCI, BEZPIECZEŃSTWA PUBLICZNEGO ORAZ GOSPODARKI NARODOWEJ I FINANSÓW z dnia 30 listopada 1944 r. w sprawie wykonania dekretu Polskiego Komitetu Wyzwolenia Narodowego z dnia 4 listopada 1944 r., o środkach zabezpieczających w stosunku do zdrajców Narodu" which probably explains details. I don't know the additional law.

It's obvious that the state wasn't able to intern all Germans and it didn't. And the law of the 4 november isn't about Germans, it's about former Polish citizens, who opted for Germany.

Xx236 09:21, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

citation please. So, you're telling us that only the men were interned, their women and children where allowed to remain in their homes liesurely until their husbands were sent to Germany, then they would be sent with them?
--Jadger 06:34, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Noone here knows basic facts

  • numbers of interned Volksdeutsch and ratio of adult men, women and children
  • that the law was against the Volksdeutch, not all Germans.

If you don't know - don't write about all Germans because you don't know. Xx236 07:07, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

We don't know that the law was just against Volksdeutch and not all Germans, you have claimed the reverse of what was in the article because you don't know, but if you change it, you must also provide a source that says it was somehow different. And if there parents were interned, how were these children going to survive on their own? and how did the families regroup once sent to Germany if they werent sent together to internment camps? it would have been near impossible to find each other in the post-war pandemonium of a large nation under military occupation.
--Jadger 16:17, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you don't know, you are certainly right. People who don't know, should not write articles.Xx236 08:27, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

That's why you are repeatedly reverted by numerous editors.
--Jadger 08:30, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Alright, guys, that's enough. Cool it and please observe WP:CIVIL --Richard 14:32, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

The American and British governments repeatedly lodged protests in Warsaw and Prague

Why in Warsaw? To pretend they protest but not to stop the deportations? The protest should have been sent to Moscow. Xx236 11:20, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

When asked on the Potsdam Confernence that the German civilian Population should go back partly because the alies can not deal with this number of people Stalin said that the Russians could not do it because the Polish have done everything allready without asking the russians and they would fight the Russians if they whould ask them something like this. May be a lie or not.

Fact is that the Polish army occopied Stettin, witch was not in the plan of the Russian, witch planned the Oder border, that shows clear that the Russian Goverment was Communist but a nationalist goverment too and followed its own plans.

Johann

The USSR was destroyd by this mistake of Stalin he supported Poland to become the strongest east European nation besides Russia it was probably the luck of the Polish that he was Georgian a Russian would have never made this mistake. It is symbolic that the downfall of the USSR started in Danzig. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.105.124.6 (talk • contribs)


  • Johann, you cannot invent things, it's not a place to write fiction. "the Polish army occopied Stettin" - get some reading.
  • Stalin was a liar. If you don't know, learn - there are hundreds of books about S~talin and tens about Potsdam. Don't write here "I don't know". WIkipedia isn't a right place for people who don't know and repeat lies.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Xx236 (talk • contribs)
Please, try to be more friendly in discussion. --Lysytalk 08:22, 10 May 2007 (UTC)


"Am 26. April 1945 eroberte die Rote Armee Stettin und setzte zunächst eine kommunistisch dominierte deutsche Stadtverwaltung ein. Erst am 5. Juli 1945 übergab die sowjetische Besatzungsmacht Stettin an polnische Stellen - im Rahmen sowjetischer Bestrebungen, die Westmächte in Bezug auf die deutsche Ostgrenze vor ein fait accompli zu stellen und unter Verletzung bestehender alliierter Vereinbarungen." - from German Wikipedia. The nationalist goverment of Poland was in London and didn't have any impact on Stettin. Xx236 09:24, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Januar 1945 wirkten polnische Streitkräfte mit an der großen Offensive der Roten Armee: im Februar und März durchfochten sie einen dramatischen Kampf beim Durchbrechen des Pommernstellung, einer stark befestigten Verteidigungslinie der Deutschen, sowie bei der Eroberng Kolbergs, das zur Festung erklärt worden war; sie kämpften auch um die Städte Danzig und Gdingen sowie im Stettiner Haff.

I know what I read it was mainly the Polish army and not the Russian witch where fightig in this area. It is about the Prepotsdamm Desitions, after this the Russians gave the city to the Polish but the Question was how it came that, that this city was given to them.

Johann

The article contains a link to Oder-Neisse line, where the subject is discussed.Xx236 10:36, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

The current article

Says only starts with Yalta. Calls for removing Germans were made earlier and were connected to activity of minority organisations in interwar time and during Invasion and occupation of Poland. Why isn't this mentioned and why isn't there more explanation what "disloyal minorities means" ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.27.67.160 (talk • contribs)

This article was spun off as a subsidiary article to Expulsion of Germans after World War II. Thus, much of the context is provided in that article. If you feel that more content specific to Poland is needed in this article, then let us know what that content is. Citations to reliable sources would be helpful as this series of articles is subject to much debate and controversy. --Richard 03:33, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

It should be proved that there existed a connection between Polish dreams and post-war reality. Poland lost independence in 1939 and regained it in 1989. Germans were responsible for the war 1939-1945 and Soviet (problematic) success. Some people are still looking for allegedly responsible Jews or Poles. What about freemasonry? Xx236 07:25, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I am totally confused by this. --Richard 14:05, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

It's not the place to discuss minority problems in Poland. There are eventually Anti-Polish and Anti-German articles for such discussions, or History of Poland. We cannot rationalize the expulsion by German knights cruelties.Xx236 15:51, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm still confused by this follow-up comment. Can you elaborate?
Xx236, did you make the first comment in this section but just fail to log in when you made it? Are you 83.27.67.160? I ask this in order to understand whether there are three editors in this conversation or just you and me.
I certainly agree that we should describe the context of the motivation for expelling the Germans. I tried to do that by copying the relevant "reasons" from the Expulsion of Germans after World War II article.
Now here's a hole in my knowledge. In Czechoslovakia, the activities of the Sudeten Germans before 1938 are well-documented. The article Expulsion of Germans from Czechoslovakia after World War II might need to be expanded to say more about those activities but I know where to find information about the pre-1938 and post-1938 activities of the Sudeten Germans.
I don't know nearly as much about the pre-war and occupation-era activities of the Germans in Poland. As the first comment in this section states, this article should discuss those. But where can I find information about them?
--Richard 16:39, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

There are three of us.

There is a basic difference between Soviet occupied Poland and (at least partially) independent Czechoslovakia of 1945.

The majority of Polish citizens of German background declared their German status (Volksdeutsch) during WWII, collaborated and later run away. The expelled Germans were mostly German citizens living in Eastern Germany. There is no simple connection between German minority in pre-war Poland and the expulsion of German citizens.

Czechoslovakia expelled mostly former Czechoslovak citizens who opted for Germany.Xx236 07:16, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

OK, good. I think that is what I had understood. I'm not a total ignoramus. As I understand it, the Sudeten Germans were much more pro-active in their support for union with Germany pre-1938 and in their support of the Nazi annexation of Sudetenland in 1938. This is why Benes is reputed to have started thinking about expelling them as early as 1938. The Sudeten Germans were viewed as traitors to Czechoslovakia with no role in Czechoslovakia's future.

While Germans in Poland were Hitler's excuse for invading Poland, I am not as aware of their pre-1939 activities in favor of union with Germany. Some Germans in Poland probably aided the Nazi invasion and occupation but I am not sure how widespread this was. Selbstschutz was involved in the early days of the occupation but was later disbanded. I need to learn more about this general topic of ethnic Germans collaborating with the Nazis during the occupation of Poland.

I'm aware of the Deutsche Volksliste. I wrote the Wikipedia article on it. I think it was a difficult choice for Poles of German extraction or married to those of German extraction. There was pressure to register with the Volksdeutsche Liste and there certainly were benefits but you were also subject to conscription into the German army and would be considered a traitor by your fellow Poles. Some refused to register and were willing to be deported to the General Gouvernement. Others did register, got the benefits, got conscripted into the Wehrmacht or transported to Germany for "Germanization" as slave labor. Any Germans or Poles who had registered with the Volksdeutsche Liste were probably lucky to be expelled at the end of the war rather than targeted for personal vengeance or prosecution as traitors. I understand that many Poles who had registered with the Volksdeutsche Liste and actively collaborated with the Nazis were prosecuted as traitors rather than expelled.

--Richard 07:46, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

My point is that the big majority of expelled from Poland were German citizens, not German minority. Xx236 14:21, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

How did they become German citizens? What percentage of Germans living in Poland prior to 1939 were German citizens? Did they retain their German citizenship from before the Treaty of Versailles in 1919? I ask this somewhat rhetorically but with some honesty because I don't know how Polish and German citizenship worked in the interwar years.
I believe that there were two ways that German citizens wound up living in Poland in 1944-1945. Excluding military personnel on active duty, they were either Germans previously living in pre-1939 Germany who resettled in occupied Poland (Reichsdeutsche) or they were ethnic Germans (Volksdeutsche) who were previously Polish citizens and gave up that citizenship by registering with the Deutsche Volksliste.
This second category may technically have been German citizens at the time of their expulsion but making this point only serves to confuse because these Volksdeutsche may have been living on those lands for many hundreds of years under Polish, Prussian and then Imperial German rule.
--Richard 16:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

The problems of pre-WWII German minority didn't probably influence Stalin. He had his opinons on national policy in Communism before. Compare the deportations 1940-1941. There is no connection between the German minority in pre-WWII Poland and the expulsion. Even if the Germans were Polish nationalist, they would have been unwelcome. In fact some Germans joined the Home Army and were persecuted or killed after the war, like Poles. I have somewhere a big book MATELSKI, Dariusz "Niemcy w Polsce w XX wieku" - Warszawa ; Poznań : Wydawnictwo Naukowe PWN, 1999, it probably contains some data, there are also German books. See also the Heimkehr propaganda movie - it shows German nazi activites in Poland. Xx236 14:21, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

These assertions need support by citations to reliable sources. It sounds like you are discounting the importance of Selbstschutz and Werwolf activities on the decision to expel the Germans. You may be right but "extraordinary assertions require extraordinary support". Otherwise, your argument sounds like OR.

But why to discuss the problem here? Stalin wanted to separate nationalities and he might have been right, when we compare the bloody partition of Yougoslavia. Xx236 14:21, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

He may have been right but without citations to reliable sources, this is just OR speculation between you and me. --Richard 16:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Any rationalization of the Expulsion is pure speculation and should be removed.Xx236 06:58, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Check Kampfgruppe Ebbinghaus in Google.Xx236 14:31, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Renaming this article

The labeling of this article is pretty wrong: The most Germans which where expelled by Poles under Communist rule where expelled from the German Oder-Neisse territories - and not from Poland. Until 1990 these territories weren't considered officially as Polish by the western world. IMHO it would be a "homage" to Stalin who pressed ahead with such "accomplished facts" if we let this title like it now is.

My suggestion: Expulsions of Germans from Poland and the Oder-Neisse territories after World War II or two articles; the new one: Expulsion of Germans from the Oder-Neisse territories after World War II

And a proposal for another article: Expulsions of Germans from East Upper Silesia after World War I.

Wikiferdi 03:42, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Ugh. I understand your point but I don't like either of your solutions. Here's the problem... the reasons that I split out Expulsion of Germans from Poland after World War II and Expulsion of Germans from Czechoslovakia after World War II from the Expulsion of Germans after World War II article were two-fold: first, the Expulsion of Germans after World War II article was getting too long and second, I have access to a source that has a lot of detail on the Expulsion of Germans from Czechoslovakia after World War II so I wanted to have a place to put that detail. If you can argue that the expulsion from the Oder-Neisse territories were significantly different from the expulsion from pre-1939 Poland, then I can see a justification for two separate articles.
As for the long article title Expulsion of Germans from Poland and the Oder-Neisse territories after World War II, I hate it. It's way too long. The current article titles are pretty damn long as it is. As I said, I understand your point. Let's look for a different way to address it.
--Richard 04:58, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Richard, don't accept fantasy by Wikiferdi before you check. Xx236 06:56, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

But he's partly right. The scope of this article (as I envision it) would cover expulsion of Germans from pre-1939 Poland (including the Kresy territories annexed by the SU), East Prussia and the former German territories east of the Oder-Neisse line. These territories didn't become modern-day Poland until after the expulsions. Exactly when they became modern-day Poland is an argument that I won't get involved in.
My point is that it makes no sense to have separate articles on Expulsion of Germans from East Prussia after World War II and Expulsion of Germans from former German territories east of the Oder-Neisse after World War II UNLESS the expulsions were significantly different in each of these regions. The reason that it is defensible to have separate articles on Expulsion of Germans from Poland after World War II and Expulsion of Germans from Czechoslovakia after World War II is that the expulsions were actually different (different governments, different kinds of Germans and somewhat different expulsion process). I'm not convinced that you see these kinds of differences between pre-1939 Poland, East Prussia and the former German terrritories east of the Oder-Neisse line. If Wikiferdi can make a convincing case that there are enough differences to warrant separate articles, I would be willing to entertain the idea of splitting up this article.
--Richard 07:07, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

He means that Poland occupied Eastern Germany till 1990 and the western world didn't accept this occupation. It's not even partly right. Xx236 12:07, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I understand what he means and I reject the implication. However, he is "partly right" in that East Prussia and the Reichsgaus were different from the General Gouvernement from a Nazi point of view. To me, the question is whether the Poles and Soviets cared about these distinctions during the expulsions. My guess is that they did not. However, I'm leaving the door open for him to prove me wrong. But only that door and not the door that he wants us to walk through. --Richard 16:09, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

It's not the problem GG - Reich but pre-1939 Poland vs. pre-1939 Germany.Xx236 17:03, 23 April 2007 (UTC) O.K. - it is partially true for the Soviets. They didn't respect the 1939 Polish-German border, they raped, killed and deported into Soviet Union Polish citizens (and other non-Germans, eg. former Auschwitz prisoners), see Przyszowice massacre.Xx236 08:22, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Answer to Wiki*:

more?Xx236 17:00, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

  • It's not even partly right.

So, Xx236, if it's not even partly right, could you explain, please, why there was necessary a Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany? Well, this was something like the "peace treaty" proclaimed on the Potsdam Conference; just 55 years after that conference... To label the expulsions from Germans out of ancient German Oder-Neisse territory as "expulsions out of Poland" would feed the wrong opinion that those Germans had to be expelled for creating "homogenous" states. Exactly this was what the western Allies aimed at. And for this intention it wasn't necessary at all to annex such a huge part of old Germany and expell all the (German) population there. But it was "necessary" for Stalin and Poland in their "drive to the west".

What's about: "Expulsions of Germans after World War II by Poles" ? - Also possible: "...by Poles and Soviets" or "...by Poles" and another one "by Soviets"....

Thus we could differentiate better how much Poles (and other nationalities) are to blame for the expulsions...

Wikiferdi 20:47, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

The nations to be blamed signed the Potsdam Treaty.

The Polish nation wwas under Soviet occupation in 1945 and that occupation was supported by the US and UK. If you have any problems contact Washington D.C., London and Moscow.

What have you won during the 45 years of pretending? The destructions of the infrastructure and many architectural monuments in former German lands, because the government preferred to invest in old Poland. Than you Germans for your "successe". Instead to be ashamed you are proud, You have won one match against Poalnd. Who cares about millions of people and German architecture. Thye most important is to bash the Poles. Xx236 07:53, 26 April 2007 (UTC) Xx236 07:44, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Re: "The Polish nation was under Soviet occupation in 1945 and that occupation was supported by the US . . . " Where, Oh Where, is there any literature stating anything even remotely close to a policy that the US supported the Soviet occupation of Poland in 1945?????? The whole idea at the time was for the Allies to assist all of the affected European countries (i.e. those who had been the victims of Nazi & Fascist aggression in WW2) to recover and to be able to have free and open elections. Early elements of the UN attempted to become involved in such endeavors. Also, "occupation" is what happened to Germany, since it was an aggressor state in WW2. No US official ever sanctioned that non-aggressor European nations should likewise be "occupied" after WW2 (the word "occupied" implies military punishment). The US Army in the American Occupation Zone of Germany was reduced to a skeleton level shortly after WW2 ended. No US official advocated that the USSR maintain hundreds of thousands of Soviet soldiers in both Poland and the Soviet Zone of Occupation in Germany while the US Army in Germany went to skeleton levels. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.108.49.206 (talk) 06:08, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

  • Any proves that the US administration opposed in any way Soviet crimes in Poland 1945? Before even 1951? "No US official ever sanctioned" - the same "No US official ever protested in 1945 or helped Polish victims".
  • Mr. Roosevelt signed any paper to make the occupation of Poland possible.
  • The difference between Eastern Germany and Poland was rather formal. German communists weren't armed after the war to kill Germans, they needed Soviet support. Is it very important who kills technically or rather the level of terror?
  • "to recover and to be able to have free and open elections" - very funny, indeed. Kind of The United Nations had previously declared Srebrenica a UN protected "safe area", but they did not prevent the massacre, even though 400 armed Dutch peacekeepers were present at the time in Srebrenica massacre. Poor West didn't know in 1945 about Soviet crimes. Poor idiots. Walter Duranty - a journalist. Xx236 15:21, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
As referenced, the UN efforts were very weak in Eastern Europe in the times after WW2, since the whole area was effectively controlled by the Soviet military.

Yes, the US Congressional Record has entries in protest of Soviet activities in Poland following WW2. Your implication seems to be that the US should have been prepared to resume the war, but against the Soviets due to their behavior in Poland (I assume you would allow that Japan needed to be defeated first - that eventually happened in the 15 Aug - 2 Sep 45 timeframe). Even the US had limitations during that time. Much effort was directed toward helping Europe, particularly England and France, recover from WW2 (i.e. the efforts leading up to the Marshall Plan). By the way, many Waffen SS would have wanted to help the US Army go after the Soviets in the Fall of 1945. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.108.49.206 (talk) 09:39, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Legacy

The paragraph presents German revisionistic POV. Which other articles in this Wikipedia contain such paragraphs? Who is interested in elderly Germans' obsessions to read this paragraph? Any Pole was illegally mistreated by Germans and Soviets. There are not enough fanatics here to write such articles and paragraphs about German crimes, but if Wikipedia goes this way, they will come here. Should nationalistic wars dominate the project?

Xx236 08:30, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

By "paragraph", do you mean the entire "Legacy" section or a particular paragraph within that section? --Richard 14:22, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Xx236, what do you think to do against Polish revisionistic POV? I just always observe that you object to "German revisionistic POV". To create here NPOV you should object to Polish revisionistic POV, too. I never have seen you doing this. Wikiferdi 20:52, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

You don't reaad enough. You ally has called me a hypocrite when I didn't play his nationalistic game.~

I write "German POV" but it means "German right POV". There are left Germans who oppose BdV more actively than me.Xx236 07:38, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

  • Casualties - once more the one million story. After weeks of discussions. What were the discussions for? Now you quote someone who quote German edition of Nitschke, who quote German source. Get the German edition of Nitsche and check the quote. Later compare with the last Polsih esdition of Nitschke.BTW - how can Nitsche know more than Haar, Overmaans and other German historians, if she quotes these historians?
  • Legacy - doesn't discuss the cold reaction of German Catholics.
  • The Debate in the Public and in Politics since 1989 - Polish responsibility for the expulsions? I don't know about any "Polish responsibility" and this statement shall be removed. There exists responsibility of the superpowers and responsibility of individuals, who committed crimes.
  • Changes in the Polish legal environment - is Wikipedia a guide for people who want to buy land? What about a guide for drivers?

"property restitution claims" - how many property restitution claims are discussed in the Wikipedia? Where is a guide for Poles who lost everything under German occupation and traced their jewels or art objects in Germany? The German state robbed German Jews and recompensed them. I don't know anything about German Jewish claims toward Poland.

  • Historiography - "In addition, historians fell back" - this paragraph and the 1960s one should be exchanged.

What about the expulsions of Poles by Germans, which weren't described as such by Polish historians, because expulsions were small problems comparing to executions, KZs, drafting, using for medical experiments, torturing, using in bordels. Expulsion is a problem of rich and free people. The expulsion of Ukrainians (and politically problematic Poles) should be discussed in the context of the Volyn crimes. Xx236 15:41, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Yalta was before Potsdam

Now the description of Potsdam comes before Yalta.Xx236 08:59, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Flight and evacuation

The article describes the "Flight and evacuation" but claims it describes the expulsion. I wish I obtain one USD for any of my protests. Xx236 09:02, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Would you be happier if the article was titled Exodus of Germans from Poland at the end of World War II? --Richard 14:21, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

"at the end and after"Xx236 07:33, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Reversing German efforts to reshape East European demographics

Good title. Thanks. --Poeticbent  talk  01:17, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

@Legacy

Under this paragraph is stated:


  • they asked forgiveness for the wrongs perpetrated during the expulsion

Didn't they ask for forgiveness for the expulsion itself? Did they endorse the expulsion of innocent Germans in principle? This would be really a shame for the Polish bishops. Well, at least the Vatican denounced the expulsion in principle.

Wikiferdi 23:04, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Richard, would you be so kind to stop him?Xx236 06:25, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Stop him how? Besides, I don't know the answers to his questions. It would be good to find out more about that letter. DID they ask forgiveness for the expulsion itself? I doubt it. I suspect that they asked forvigness for the "wrongs perpetrated during the expulsion" meaning that the expulsions were justified but the implementation was fraught with evils perpetrated against the expellees.
It would be good if we could dig up more info on this letter especially given that it was written in 1965 (during the Communist era

!)

--Richard 12:16, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

There exists already Letter of Reconciliation of the Polish Bishops to the German Bishops. Richard, with all due respect - don't speculate because you loose your credibility.Xx236 07:27, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

You're right. My speculation was perhaps unfounded. However, better that I should label my speculation as such than to assert it as fact.
However, the Wikipedia article doesn't answer the question... what exactly did the Polish bishops ask forgiveness for? The expulsions as an act or the "wrongs committed during the expulsions" as Wikiferdi suggests? The Wikipedia article provides a link to the Polish text of the letter. I can't read Polish. Can someone who can read Polish read the letter and tell us what it says?
--Richard 15:17, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Here is the Polish text [2]. It describes the expulsion and later asks for forgiverness not defining for what. The letter was allegedly written in German, so the Polish text is a translation. Xx236 08:17, 2 May 2007 (UTC) German text, I don't know if the original one or if it's a retranslation from PolishXx236 08:28, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

If we are discussing the Vatican - it did very little to help Polish Catholics and quite many Vatican officials helped Nazis after the war.Xx236 08:30, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Maybe (please cite reliable sources; the best would be on the sites where these topics are discussed), but what's about Polish Catholic officials? Did they much to help innocent German Catholics (Jews, Protestants...) which were persecuted by Polish and Communist regime (just because they were German)? Wikiferdi 21:36, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

The article states:


What did Stanislaw Adamski say? Had he really been the only bishop or clergyman who criticized the expulsion?

If yes, why didn't the (majority of the) Polish clergymen oppose the expulsion of Germans which was linked to internment camps (former Nazi concentration camps), torture, starvation etc.? Yet they themselves had been in such camps and did know very exactly what happens to people in such camps. And most of the Germans which had to suffer now had been as innocent as they...

Well, it would have been heroic of them, opposing the hatred of their Polish fellows, but isn't this exactly that what the Catholic Church expects of their ministers?

Wikiferdi 18:59, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Why didn't German clergymen oppose the extermination of ethnic Poles - torture, starvation etc. 1939-1945? They had much mor etime to understand the problem. Polish priests were murdered by Germans and Soviets, deported to Siberia, deported from Ukraine - they had other problems than the German ones. Let's put you into Dachau KZ for 2 years and we'll see what will be your first problem after the liberation - to love you wardens? Xx236 11:16, 8 May 2007 (UTC)


  • Why didn't German clergymen oppose the extermination of ethnic Poles

Well, many of them had been detained in those concentration camps like Dachau etc., too - especially when they opposed the politics of Hitler & Co. Actually, the Polish Bishop of Breslau / Wrocław, Henryk Roman Gulbinowicz, underscored at the transfer of the remains of German Bishop Adolf Bertram in his own metropolitan cathedral in Wrocław / Breslau, that it be due to this Bishop that the most Polish clergymen survived Dachau.

But now: The Polish clergymen did know quite exactly how cruelsome people are treated in internment and concentration camps. Why didn't they object to sending innocent Germans to such camps?

Wikiferdi 02:20, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

You have asked you question once. It's enough. Apparently noone wants to discuss the problem with you on your conditions, so don't repeat your accusations again and again. If you don't know - the RC Church didn't rule in Poland after the war but the Communists.

What is your source about the help of Adolf Bertram for the Polish clergymen? BTW - thank your for German generosity in Dachau. Certenly Germans were able to kill all Polish inmates but many survived. Thank you Germany that a part of my family survived WWII. Thank you Soviet Union that a part of my family survived WWII. Hitler and Stalin - you were nice guys. Kiss, kiss, kiss. Xx236 07:21, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

  • RC Church didn't rule in Poland after the war but the Communists

Well, at least the RC Church of Poland could have objected to this regime and to the atrocities done within and by this regime. But most of the clergymen didn't as more and more is disclosed now. Instead many became henchmen.

  • What is your source about the help of Adolf Bertram for the Polish clergymen?

The source is a speech of Cardinal Henryk Roman Gulbinowicz given at the exhumation and transfer of the remains of Cardinal Bertram 1991. I don't have it online. Maybe you can procure it? Actually, before (Cold War) it wasn't possible for him to state such things because the Poles were taught to blame the Germans for all atrocities done in the world (of Poles).

Wikiferdi 04:47, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

In the article "SP. Kardynal dr. Adolf Bertram. Ksiaze – Metropolita Wroclawski" the Polish newspaper "Nowe Zycie" (New Life) Nr. 22 (216), pp. 6-8, had stated on 16 November 1991:

(I try to translate:)


Well, this is an example what a Polish newspaper admits that a German clergyman had done for his Polish brothers. Cardinal Bertram didn't rule Germany but anyway he tried to do his best to help innocent Poles. What had he Polish priesthood done in helping Germans persecuted by the Polish and Communist regime?

Wikiferdi 05:30, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

in a scientific manner

WOuldn't academic be better? Historiography isn't a science.Xx236 10:07, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Presumably you are referring to something in the article text. Could you tell us which section you are referring to? --Richard 15:00, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I mean Historiography paragraph. I always quote the original text, so one can find it using search option.Xx236 07:06, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

An Eye for an Eye

A number of Jewish survivors persecuted Germans. Many of those poeple left Poland. A Jewish Communist who persecuted Polish nationalists and emigrated later to the USA or Israel wasn't exacly Polish from Polish point of view. An Eye for an Eye by John Sack describes a number of such cases. Ethnic minorites were very influential in security business during and after WWII till 1956.

Camp wardens were generally uneducated Poles. Later Communist immigrants from France or Belgium worked as wardens, but maybe not in camps for Germans.Xx236 07:27, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

  • A number of Jewish survivors persecuted Germans.

Please specify your statement and your source! How many Jewish survivors persecuted Germans?

  • Camp wardens were generally uneducated Poles.

How many camp wardens were Poles? In which camps?

Wikiferdi 17:39, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

W*, you must be joking. My source is quoted few lines above your question.

Higher officers, ie. the commanders and people above them were frequently members of minorities, who left Poland about 1956 so their Polish nationality was doubtful. Since when do you doubt the Polishness of common wardens?Xx236 07:55, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

  • My source is quoted few lines above your question.

I mean the pages, citation etc. "A number" - how much is this? Please supply more detailed information. Wikiferdi 08:09, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

You can find the data exactly the same way as I can - working [[3]]

The problem isn't in numbers only. There existed Jewish vengeance and Polish vengeance after WWII. "I decided that in An Eye for an Eye, I wouldn't report that a Jew had beaten a German, tortured a German, or killed a German until the reader could understand why the Jew had done it and even could think If I'd been that Jew, I'd have done it myself." Read the whole book, not only the 5% you love about poor Germans and cruel world.Xx236 14:50, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

  • I'd have done it myself.

Do you mean that innocent Germans (or their descendants) who where tortured and killed by Poles... with the end of WWII would have the right to revenge the injustice done to them, too? And you would do it yourself, too? Although you (as German) would torture and kill again innocent people (Poles...)?. Is this really your attitude? - Well, in this context I would like to mention the charter of the German expellees where the German expellees in the best Christian way pledged to refrain from seeking revenge for the atrocities done to them...

By the way, are you Christian?

Well, obviously not, because you endorse vendetta. Thus, would you endorse the revenge for atrocities done to Arabs in prisons like Abu Ghraib prison, too? How many towers and cities have to be destroyed, how many innocent people have to be murdered until you will understand that arbitrary killing of innocent people won't ever be a solution for conflicts but just will produce new conflicts and new "reasons" for revenge?

Wikiferdi 04:26, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Wikiferdi, I am certainly not for collective responsibility, and everyone has his own story but most of the Germans were not so "innocent" as you are trying to present it. Of course there were some exceptions but the majority supported Nazism, were proud of German army, volunteered to various political or military organizations. Have you heard of many Germans not supporting the 1939 invasion of Poland ? However, when Germany lost the war, they suddenly were "not responsible" and "innocent". Have you ever wondered what would happen if Germany won ? --Lysytalk 16:05, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Wikiferdi, I won't discuss with you any more. Xx236 06:55, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

To Lysy and Xx236:

The most Germans who where killed, raped, tortured etc. by Poles etc. where women, elderly and children. The men had been in the war and then in camps for POWs. So. And there were no and really no (fair) trials (in the east) to discern between culpable and not culpable Germans. For most Poles as I have already cited above it was sufficent that a German family had a nice house or property for sending them altogehter in internment camps etc. and then let them starve there slowly. This is more or less what Naimark wrote. You blame German Nazis for killing etc. innocent people and you condone the same on Polish site? Shall I begin as you did and say: "The most Poles weren't so innocent as you are trying to present it."???

If you and Xx236 don't have better arguments than it's really better not to discuss any more.

I propose here again, that we just cite reliable sources, not more. I have cited quite a lot, and you?

Wikiferdi 04:20, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Stop your ad personam attacks. This discussion is about the "Expulsion of Germans from Poland after World War II", not about me.
Xx236 07:16, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Xx236, I don't see any personal attack in Wikiferdi's response above. --Lysytalk 07:48, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Wikiferdi, thanks for the response but you've missed my point. I only wanted to bring your attention to the fact that most of the Germans were not so "innocent" as you're trying to see them. This does not of course justify rapes and other cruelties, and I agree with you that there were no fair trials etc. However, most of the Germans actively supported Nazism during WW2. And it was not only men, women supported it as well. They did not have any problem moving into Jewish or Polish houses, while their rightful owners were sent to concentration or death camps. As I said, I know that this is a generalisation, which is always unjust as there certainly were individuals that were not happy with the Nazi policies. However, en masse, Germans were not innocent, and I don't mean the soldiers that ended up in the POW camps, but the whole society that supported the Grossdeutsches Reich policies. And they knew that. This is one of the reasons why Germans panicked and fled in millions. --Lysytalk 08:01, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

"If you and Xx236 don't have better arguments" is an ad personam attack.

It's not a tribunal and the writer isn't an attorney general to accuse millions. It's a Wikipedia. The way to write a text is to look for informations in reliable sources, not to discuss my relation to Christianity or quality of my arguments. I don';t like to have any arguments, I oppose the BdV propaganda rejected even in Germany ("Black book" by Navratil).

We aren't here to discuss common guilt of Germans or Poles. But if someone loves the subject - Polish Jews buy from Germans picture taken in ghettoes by German soldiers, there exists already an exhibition of such pictures. So much about Germans not knowing about ghettoes and about Christianity of those who demand money for such pictures from families of the victims.

It's true that cardinal Bertram wrote a letter to help Polish priests, but eyewitness accounts don't confirm any help. A Wrocław church historian quotes the text of the letter but doesn't quote any real help. Xx236 09:20, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

  • there certainly were individuals that were not happy with the Nazi policies

Most of the German voters hadn't ever voted for Hitler and the Nazis. But then his terrible dictatorship came over them and every person who tried to oppose him in public ended up into the concentration camps as others, too.

  • Most of the Germans actively supported Nazism during WW2

Well, if you read my comment above you will understand what happened to people which didn't support Nazism during their dictatorship - and especially during the most horrible war ever. And actually the most of the Germans didn't want to end up in concentration camps. I think this is understandable. Besides, during WW2 most of the Germans supported their country - in that time ruled by the Nazis - but did they really support all their methods? What did they know about extermination camps in the east? In a world without Internet and mostly without television and just a press and radio brought into line? If someone heard feindsender (i. e. broadcasts of the enemy) and was caught in the act then he or she was sent to the concentration camp.

Stop! - We don't discuss here on this site what Germans be to blame for. We discuss here what Poles are to blame for:

What Poles... did after WWII is inexcusable. War was over. There was no need to kill people, there was no enemy anymore. There just was a defeated people and many many civilians which had suffered under the war as other civilians do during all wars around the world, too. And than they had to suffer again under Polish... people and the world looked the other way. If I used the wording of some people here I could say most of the Poles weren't innocent...

Wikiferdi 04:36, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Wikiferdi, you forgot to blame the Jews. They were as guilty of the war as the Poles were. Poor Germans ... I'm sorry, but the way you are trying to twist the history it simply outrageous. What will we hear next, maybe it was Poland who attacked Germany in 1939 and imposed Nazism upon German people ? It always amuses me, when I hear Germans say: It was not Germans, it was the Nazis ! --Lysytalk 05:32, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

No, but it was Poland which annexed illegally east Upper Silesia contrary to the referendum of the people there. And it was Poland which waged five wars against its surrounding neighbours between 1919 and 1938. And it was Poland which didn't accept the Curzon line in the east and annexed the territory there although just 1/5 of the population had been Polish people.

About "Jews": I find it quite outrageous that there are some Poles who try to blame (Polish) Jews for atrocities done against German people after WWII. These atrocities had been ordered by Polish authorities and so Poland is to blame for them and not Jews. Don't repeat the same mistakes of the history again.

Wikiferdi 05:26, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't know of any Poles trying to blame Jews in general (other than individuals like the infamous Solomon Morel) for the crimes against Germans. Other than that, I see I was right - you are trying to blame Poland for the Nazi invasion in 1939, right ? Or am I missing your point about the Curzon line ? --Lysytalk 07:47, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Please, no personal attack!

Well, you are missing my point. I just would like to open people eyes that the world is not black/white, good/bad, us/them... It is a lot more complex. It is unfair blaming Germany for atrocities done against Poland but obviously trying to turn blind eyes to the atrocities done by Poles against Germans.

Continuously asserting here that one people is indiscriminately perpetrator and another people is indiscriminately victim, IMHO constitutes spreading hatred via Internet.

I don’t want to relativize German atrocities but I object to all relativizations of Polish responsibilities in the history, just trying to be impartial. A neutral POV is what we are looking for, isn’t it?

People are trying to present Poland just as victim in the history. But if you look closer and more exactly you will discover that Polish people often had been amidst of the aggressors.

In this way you should interpret my comments. And now, please don't attack people but supply reliable sources. Wikiferdi 20:32, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Wikiferdi, I am not attacking you, I'm just asking questions in order to better understand what you are trying to say. I still don't see how Curzon line is relevant to this article and who is "turning blind eyes to the atrocities done by Poles against Germans". And when you ask for reliable sources above, specifically what do you mean me to prove ? --Lysytalk 21:01, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

German extermination policy of Poles

Is the phrase correct?Xx236 07:11, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

What phrase? Where? --Richard 15:53, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

"German extermination policy of Poles" Xx236 08:02, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Particular crimes

As far noone wants to write about particular crimes.

Lubin- February 8-10 1945, Soviets killed 150 inmates of home for aged and 500 of asylum[4] Xx236 14:26, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

And so, what's the relevance of that incident to this article? --Richard 15:56, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Basic - it explains what happened to 650 "expelled" Germans in only one city. Xx236 06:31, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

The problem with most of the back-and-forth on this and other related Talk Pages is that it's all OR. Even if you convince all of us that you are right - das macht nichts... it's worthless because it's OR. You cannot extrapolate from one incident in one city to make a general conclusion about the whole country. If you have a valid point (and I believe that you do), you can only make that point in Wikipedia if you can find a reliable source who makes the same point in a published work. So, please, stop wasting everybody's time with these kinds of arguments and dig up some sources. Start with Bernadette Nitschke. She's Polish. Find other Polish sources. Historians, magazine and newspaper articles, etc. And then we can start working with that data.
--Richard 06:58, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

To have data for the whole country one has to start with one city. If there are thousands lists Lists of topics describing anything here, why would be a list of crimes against Germans "worthless"? Maybe such list exists in German language sources and someone "finds" it finally? Xx236 07:48, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Building such a list might be encyclopedic provided that it is sourced. The problem is that we can never be sure that it is comprehensive and academically sound unless the entire list is sourced. The biggest problem in compiling a list ourselves is that we cannot be sure that we have an "apples to apples" comparison. --Richard 16:43, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I have asked many times - where and when did the Poles kill hundreds of thousand of Germans outside the camps and got no answer. Xx236 07:48, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

It's a valid question. Do any of these articles explictly say that "Poles" "killed" "hundreds of thousands of Germans"? I don't think so and, if they do, we should definitely fix that. I think your problem is that the articles imply that Poles killed (or let die) hundreds of thousands of Germans. We've identified this as an issue and need to fix that. The biggest problem is that, so far, all we have are OR arguments by Wikipedia editors. There is this tantalizing but so far vague hint of reliable information in the discussion about Overmans and Haar. I really wish someone would dig up the rationale behind Overmans downward revision of the estimated deaths. All that I've seen so far is that the estimated number of (military?) deaths due to war was increased resulting in a downward revision of civilian deaths. But we don't know what those numbers are. And we have no idea of how many people are estimated to have died due to Allied bombing or due to diseases such as typhus in interment camps (both Western and Polish). How many were deported to the Soviet Union? Are those deportees included in the population balance? I doubt Stalin ever revealed how many Germans he had deported. We also need better information about deportation trains that were stopped at the German border and delayed. If people died while waiting to cross into Germany, whose fault is that?
You see, I HAVE been reading and understanding the arguments. I just oppose editing the article to insert a lot of unsourced polemic EVEN IF IT IS TRUE because that opens up the article to endless POV pushing and edit warring. We must find sources for these points so that we can defend them against people who would prefer to ignore and gloss over them.
--Richard 16:43, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

If we are discussing basic Wikipedia ideology - the "Expulsion" is a POV German idea and it shouldn't be a subject of an article. It's a mix of facts which happened during and after WWII. You may eventually describe the Expulsion as a German ideolgy, but not real facts if you are using only German sources. Xx236 07:48, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

So are there any Polish sources who make this argument? It may be true that "expulsion is a German ideology" but, if that's true, wouldn't there be Polish sources that argue that? --Richard 16:43, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Polish authors quote German sources, frequently being financed by German institutions. Bernadetta Nitschke quotes German aggregated data. There are no "Polish" aggregated data and I don't know any such project which could give such data during next several years. Rűdiger Overmans proposed about ten years ago a common Germman-Polish research and probably got no answer. Does it say, that Germans have the right to impose their ideology, because they were free after the war to print propaganda books and invent ideologies?

Polish historians don't have any idea how many Poles died during WWII and they just start to count. So German problems will be researched in the far future. Xx236 07:48, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Even if there isn't hard data, surely there are criticisms of the German "ideology"? These can be quoted. Of course, it is better if the criticisms are from academics such as historians but even popular sources like magazines and newspapers can be used to show that there is a different POV in Poland. We had an edit war last year over the Flight and expulsion of Germans during World War II article because some editors (maybe you were among them) kept adding unsourced criticisms of the "German ideology". So then other editors on the German side added unsourced defenses against those criticisms which led to an unencyclopedic back-and-forth debate in the article of unsourced assertions. This sort of thing is unacceptable and leads to page protection.
If your points are held by any significant number of Poles, they must have been expressed in print somewhere. Do the research and find a source. Then insert the sourced assertions into the article. Or present them here first for discussion.
Quantitative data is preferable but even qualitative arguments are acceptable if they are sourced.
--Richard 16:43, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Bernadetta Nitschke

Bernadetta Nitschke has published three different versions of her book - two in Polish and one in German. So quoting Bernadetta Nitschke means comparing the three books. Xx236 07:56, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

"camps and other types of facilities were set up" or "existed"

Richard, you've recently changed the sentence:

In Communist Poland many camps and other types of facilities existed

to:

In Communist Poland, many camps and other types of facilities were set up

Both are correct, but maybe it could reflect that most of the camps already existed before, as former German concentration camps and sub-camps were reused. I was quite shocked when I've learnt this. But after a reflection, I realized, that this information is a good illustration of the spirit of the times. On the other hand, these concentration camps do not have much to do with the expulsion, this is another topic as, contrary to what the article suggests, the majority of the expelled Germans were not in these camps. --Lysytalk 13:15, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

The point is that "camps and... existed..." is an awkward locution in English for the point that is being made. The camps may have existed previous to their being converted for use as internment camps but we have to decide whether we are interested in the camps as physical facilities or the camps as they were used for the purpose of internment. If we want to be precise, we can say "A number of internment camps were established. For the sake of convenience, most of these were set up in pre-existing German concentration camps." It's a question of emphasis. How important is the detail of the German concentration camps to the point we are making? I can go either way.
Have you found any quantitative data regarding the number of Germans that were interned as opposed to expelled? I suspect that it would have been limited to those accused of crimes either legitimately or falsely. This is pure speculation on my part but I expect that some of those who refused to leave when expelled may have been interned as a measure of intimidation. Faced with the threat of prosecution for war crimes (real or trumped up), many would have chosen to leave. --Richard 15:41, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I share your suspicions, yet do not have any hard data to confirm it. I've read some accounts of individual inmates of the camps but this does not help to reliably build a general picture. --Lysytalk 22:04, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Communist internment camps in Poland

How many Germans were kept in the internment camps ? And how long were they kept there ? --Lysytalk 14:39, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

The most notorious camps were:

and

Xx236 15:12, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but these camps did not hold that many people. The largest one, Potulice, had seen 30 thousand altogether. --Lysytalk 15:27, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

There existed more than 1000 "camps", I have listed the most notorious ones. Germans had to work everywhere, some of them living at their homes, some of them imprisoned, especially POVs. Xx236 15:51, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

What? In Poland, POV-pushing could get you imprisoned? I always knew there was something good about Poland. Let's institute that policy here!  ;^)
Seriously, I think Xx236 meant "POWs" (prisoners of war).
We also have to remember that the Potsdam agreement stipulated that German reparations were to be in the form of forced labor. Some were deported to the Soviet Union, some to occupied Germany. I don't know how many were used as forced labor in Poland.
--Richard 16:22, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Actually Potsdam did not write it out, it was written into the Yalta protocol, not that it really matters when it was decided.--Stor stark7 Talk 22:24, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Xx236, Most of these 1000 "camps" were simply ad hoc concentration points, which existed for a couple of days. Calling them "concentration camps" is misleading. --Lysytalk 21:44, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Do you have any evidence for that assertion? --Stor stark7 Talk 22:24, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

copyvio

I've commented out a part of the "Interment camps" section, as it was a blatant copyvio of a review of "Eine Porzellanscherbe im Graben: Eine deutsche Fluechtlingskindheit" book [5]. I believe this should be removed altogether, as it contained incorrect or misleading information, such as "hundreds of thousands of Germans ended up in internment facilities" etc. --Lysytalk 14:46, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

"hundreds of thousands of Germans" were imprisoned in 1945.

The book is written from a child's POV. The child is very adult now and could learn, why the Poles hated the Germans, what Germans did to Poles. Xx236 15:22, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Poland's post-war communist government imprisoned some 100,000 Germans in 1945, and at least 15,000 are estimated to have died in captivity.[6]
On 4 July, 1946, a mob armed with clubs, iron bars and firearms, and angered by rumours a Christian child had been kidnapped by Jews, attacked a building housing Jewish refugees. When the violence ended a few hours later, 40 men, women and children, many of them Holocaust survivors, lay dead. The bloodletting in Kielce prompted thousands of Jews to flee Poland, with an estimated 60,000 leaving in the three months that followed....antisemitism in Poland in the months following the end of the war, concludes that the reasons for the massacre lay in a vicious Polish hatred of Jews. He also claims that up to 1,500 Jews died in antisemitic violence in Poland during this period. a book by Prof Gross on the 1941 massacre by Poles of 1,400 Jews in the village of Jadwabne provoked a storm of controversy in Poland. Fear is widely expected to provoke a similar reaction. Renewed debate over the Kielce pogrom and Polish antisemitism will add tension to already fraught Polish-Jewish relations.[7]
After the German occupation of Denmark, Danes considered helping German refugees an unpatriotic act, Lylloff said. As a result, a total of 13,492 German refugees died in 1945. Seven thousand were children younger than five years old, a third of the children in that age group. Three thousand were infants under one year of age, almost every single German baby in Denmark. ‘When we hear of ethnic cleansing and the horrors of Rwanda and the Balkans, we should remind ourselves that we, too, have behaved in a similar way out of ethnic hatred,’ she said.[8][9][10][11]
Poles were no better or worse than the Germans, everybody hates, It's just a question of whether circumstances will provide you with the opportunity to kill, and a question of who will get the chance to extract revenge the next time, for there will be a next time, of that I have no doubt.--Stor stark7 Talk 22:17, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Stor stark7: who will get the chance to extract revenge the next time, for there will be a next time, of that I have no doubt, I cannot believe you wrote that. And I sincerely hope you do not really think that way. --Lysytalk 06:12, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

How to get Polish criminals

Receipe:

  • Invide Poland and kill educated people
  • Educate Poles as slaves
  • Destroy Polish police using it during the Holocaust
  • Loose war against the SU allowing the Soviets to rule Poland
  • Accuse Polish nationalists.

Xx236 07:55, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Excuse me, what has this to do with "Expulsion of Germans from Poland after World War II"??? - Wikiferdi 20:35, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Wikiferdi, it's my explanation to people, who don't understand the relationship between German policy toward Poles and the situation of expelled Germans. Ęspecially to people who believe that Communists were Polish nationalists. Do those people need further explanations? I would start with reading of

before writing about ethical aspects of expulsions and camps. Xx236 07:31, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

"Poles were no better or worse than the Germans" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.108.49.206 (talk) 11:54, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Slavic minorities

Slavic minorities in Germany were generally of Slavic descent and partially German culture. If WIkiferdi doen't prove, I'm removing his partly, because it's not true.Xx236 06:34, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Which "Slavic minorities"? - There was a mixture of parentage and culture near German borders. Wikiferdi 05:41, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

You neglected to mention that most of the descendants of those 500,000 over time became Germans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.108.49.206 (talk) 14:17, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

You neglected to mention some tools of that Germanization:

Xx236 15:04, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

In the 19th Century, acculturation of those Poles in the Ruhr simply happened; for example, they went to Sunday Mass with German Catholics, and many intermarried with German Catholics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.108.49.206 (talk) 05:42, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

  • The main tool of the aculturation was the army and mass education. There was no problem od minority rights, so popular when discussing Poland.
  • Accidentally almost no priests in Ruhr spoke German. Xx236 14:53, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
I say again, it is reasonable to assume that most of those 500,000 Poles remained in Germany, as did their children and grandchildren, and greatgrandchildren. Many intermarried with Germans. Over 100 years the net effect was, to a large extent, Germanization. It was the Latin Mass, not a German or Polish Mass. 67.108.49.206
It was a German sermon, catechism, confession, religion classes.

"over 100? Some people were 1 year, some 5, some 20, many died as German soldiers or in mine accidents. "Many intermarried" - how many? First generation of immigrants rarely can intermarry. Xx236 14:47, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

There were places in Silesia where Polish and German Catholics attended the same Catholic Church for generations; many were bilingual.
Intermarriage typically begins in 2nd and later generations of such immigrants.
In Germany in places it was more difficult for a non-Catholic and a Catholic to marry than two Catholics marrying.

with the complex of theme that was "expulsion"

expulsion is German nationalistic notion, so there is no complex theme that was expulsion but rather one of forced transfers of tens of millions in Europe. Some Germans cliam they were the main victims of WWII and invented expulsions as a tool.Xx236 11:31, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

"Poles were no better or worse than the Germans"

wrote 67.108.49.206 (Xx236 07:20, 16 October 2007 (UTC))

Polish guards

If there were Nazi guards the same Communist guards. If Polish guards then German guards.Xx236 11:33, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

"Poles were no better or worse than the Germans"

wrote 67.108.49.206 (Xx236 07:19, 16 October 2007 (UTC))

67.108.49.206 would you please comment my statement about double standards here? I haven't written anything about no better or wors, but about naming conventions.Xx236 07:22, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Szczecin

Why a whole paragraph about Szczecin? Either paragraph about any province/big city or none.Xx236 11:38, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Distrust of and enmity towards German communities in Poland

"There was an expressed fear of disloyalty of Germans in Silesia and Pommerania based in part on the pro-Nazi activities of members of the German ethnic group during the war and even after the end of the war."

Comment: this is not very clear . . . do you mean disloyalty of Germans in Polish Silesia and Polish Pommerania (in the sense that there were such Polish regions outside the borders of 1937 Germany) ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.108.49.206 (talk) 06:20, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

  • Both Polish and annexed in 1945.
  • "there was not a political party that would agree with Germans continuing to live in Silesia and Pomerania" says there were Polish parties who defined policy. In reality Poland was under Soviet occupation, the only independent big party, the PSL, was terrorised and had very little impact.Xx236 15:00, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
I was not referring to annexation areas of 1945 - a reference to Polish Silesia and/or Polish Pommerania Outside the 1937 German borders refers to areas that didn't need to be annexed, since they were already in Poland in 1937. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.108.49.206 (talk) 09:13, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

The title is "Controversy over reasons and justifications for the expulsions", not for the annexations.Xx236 14:49, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

"German Communities in Poland" means German Communities within the 1937 Borders of Poland, since in August, 1945 the German communities in the 1937 area of Germany known as Silesia, Main Pomerania, Eastern Brandenburg, and Southern East Prussia were not "German Communities in Poland". They were "German Communities in Polish Administered Eastern German territories". None of the Western Leaders (to include Truman, De Gaulle, or even Churchill after having to leave Potsdam) agreed that in August 1945 the "German Communities in Polish Administered Eastern German territories" were de facto or de jure "German Communities in Poland". Attempting to encompass the situation in August 1945 with, for example, the situation in August 1947, is an exercise in convenient lumping together unique time situations as having essentially no difference in substance. In legal terms when such a trick is attempted it is referred to as ex post facto. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ANNRC (talk • contribs) 02:21, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Numbers of Polish victims

Polish Wikipedia estimates the number of Polish slave workers to be 3 000 000.

Expulsion of Poles by Germany:

The numbers of expelled don't inlude local expulsions caused by creation of ghettos, German districts, forts and training fields. Xx236 08:21, 2 November 2007 (UTC)


dominating nationalities map

The map showing the “dominating nationalities in Poland around 1931” is obviously a polish propaganda POV. There has been a plebiscite in masuria in 1920, which resulted a 99% german population. The map denies that fact and suggests a polish majority. Similar is the situation in Upper Silesia and the kashubian minority near Gdansk is also incorporated as “polish”.

The map is an evidence on polish chauvinism of the 1930th. The german POV is shown here

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Deutsche_Mundarten.PNG

(HerkusMonte (talk) 15:48, 6 February 2008 (UTC))

The plebiscite didn't determine nationality. It was both falsfied and manipulated by German officials and took place as Poland was to be overrun by Bolshevik forces, thus many Poles would vote to remain safe from Bolshevik invasion.--Molobo (talk) 16:12, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

You may be both right. The map shows probably language distribution and many Polish speaking people opted for Germany.Xx236 (talk) 12:50, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Controversy over reasons and justifications for the expulsions: redundant section removed per WP:CFORK

The section "Controversy over reasons and justifications for the expulsions" in this article is a twin of the section "Reasons and justifications for the expulsions" in the Expulsion of Germans after World War II article. As the section's content is not limited to Poland, I removed the section in this article to prevent divirging Content forking. Skäpperöd (talk) 17:29, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Changes in the Polish legal environment

Changes in the Polish legal environment presents only German POV quoting one German source. Xx236 (talk) 12:20, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

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