Talk:Flag of Northern Ireland/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Union Flag vs St Patrick's Saltire in the lead

I don't understand this revert. Both the Union Flag and St Patrick's Saltire are both in the lead section, and the Union Flag is displayed first. According tho the article the "St Patrick's Saltire is used the by government to represent Northern Ireland when a uniquely Northern Irish flag is required" so the one that represents Northern Ireland should be displayed first, not the one that represents the whole UK. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 19:59, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Thinking about it again even though it isn't officially the flag of Northern Ireland I think the citation to Hansard is probably enough to justify its standing at the top of the article, so I'll withdraw my objection. Dmcq (talk) 22:50, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

The Union Flag is flown from government buildings in Northern Ireland. Saint Patrick's Saltire is used the by government to represent Northern Ireland when a uniquely Northern Irish flag is required.

Could this be used? Dn9ahx (talk) 13:00, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't think sticking them side by side is a good idea, it cuts down the text space and on a handheld one might just be stuck on top of the other anyway. What's the real problem? The text at the very start of the article explains the situation and the text below the flag explains the situation and it is explained further down in the body. If a minister can stand up in parliament and say that St Patrick's Flag shall be flown for Northern Ireland alongside the flags for England, Scotland and Wales it is pretty much official whatever about heralds or whatever for it to be 'official' I'd have thought. Dmcq (talk) 13:52, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Thinking again about it, I'm not all that certain one way or the other, so I've put a calling notice at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration#Which flag first in lead of Flag of Northern Ireland. Dmcq (talk) 14:04, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

The one that represents Northern Ireland should take precedence over the one that represents the whole UK. Even if the Northern Ireland one is only semi-official, one specifically represents Northern Ireland. The other does not. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 15:28, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Inclusion of Irish flag

I really can't see a reason for including the Irish flag in the Flag of Northern Ireland article. It is reasonable enough in the Northern Ireland flags issue article but it just isn't a contender as being the flag of Northern Ireland. It is simply an identify marker for nationalists. The union flag is there because it is currently the official flag but it could be removed if there was some sort of official flag for Northern Ireland. As it says in the article 'Nationalists pointed to this to argue that the use of the Union Flag for official purposes should be restricted, or that the Irish tricolour should be flown alongside the British flag on government buildings.' They weren't saying it was the flag of Northern Ireland. Dmcq (talk) 12:20, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

There is no flag as there are in England, Wales and Ireland, but there are different flags used for different purposes. The article includes it as such with no claim as to official status. ----Snowded ^TALK 12:26, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

That's for the article Northern Ireland flags issue. This article is about flag of Northern Ireland. All the flags shown have some sort of official recognition as flags of Northern Ireland. Are you saying the two articles should be merged? Dmcq (talk) 12:31, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

No ----Snowded ^TALK 12:32, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

So what point do you have to put forward for showing the Irish flag here besides that some people in Northern Ireland wave it around as a mark of identity? I've show they are not saying it is the flag of Northern Ireland. Dmcq (talk) 12:35, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

I think to say that some people "wave it around" is derogatory and trivialises the issue. However to answer your question the section in which it appears opens with "In Northern Ireland, some members from each of the unionist and nationalist communities use flags to declare their political allegiances and to mark territory". So its more than appropriate to show one used by a significant section the population ----Snowded ^TALK 12:40, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

I think it is being shown too much as a flag of official standing along with the others rather than in the context you are saying. I would be happier with a picture of it being flown like the saltire in the photo below, would that be okay with you? Dmcq (talk) 12:49, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't see the need for that, the context of use is clear ----Snowded ^TALK 12:51, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

There isn't any official "Flag of Northern Ireland" at present, so the article deals with all the flags used in the region to represent either the region on its own, or as a component of larger entities of which it is part (the UK, Ulster, Ireland). The Irish flag has no less or more legal standing in Northern Ireland than the Stormont banner. Brocach (talk) 12:53, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Well the saltire is recognized in parliament as what should be put up if they really need something besides the union flag because the other parts of the UK are represented, and the union flag is the official flag to represent Northern Ireland on its own. The article also shows the historical flag plus the flag it was based on. Those seem reasonably official to me. The union flag is not there as being for the wider area. Putting in the Irish flag is no more reasonable than the EC flag would be reasonable in the article about the flag of Ireland. I take it that just showing a photo is being rejected? Dmcq (talk) 13:09, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

The official question has been done to death over the years. The context of the use is fine, putting in a photo is trivial, I certainly reject it ----Snowded ^TALK 13:19, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

In any case the saltire has no such recognition; check the two Hansard refs. A junior minister in the Thatcher government stated in 1986 that it was to be used on buildings in Whitehall during state visits. Parliament took no position. Another junior minister later expressly stated that the saltire had not been adopted as the flag of Northern Ireland. It has no more legal standing than the Ulster banner or the tricolour. Brocach (talk) 13:26, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

I think it is a bit ingenuous to say it has no more official standing than the ulster banner or tricolour if a minister of the crown says it is to be used on official occasions. It may not be the official flag but if you are trying to say the tricolour has some official standing in Northern Ireland as its flag you must be going for some very delicate shades of grey as well as black and white. Dmcq (talk) 13:33, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

If there is no official flag would you then support redirecting this article to the flags issue article and merging in whatever extra there is? Dmcq (talk) 13:37, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

I did not say, nor try to say, that the tricolour had official status in the North. Official status is not the only, nor even the most important, criterion. I don't support a merger of the articles. Brocach (talk) 14:30, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Were you saying the tricolour was a flag that represented Northern Ireland then? Or what were you saying about it that made it relevant to the topic of the article? And if there is no flag for Northern Ireland why shouldn't the articles be merged 0- after all none of the flags then have real standing as representing Northern Ireland. Dmcq (talk) 16:33, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

I cannot think of ANY reason why ............no.........tried again, still can't ............ the flag of Ireland should feature in this article. The fact that some people fly it outside their house or wherever is not relevant at all. I fly the flag of the Central African Republic outside my house, but I don't see it featuring in the article on Flag of England. SixtyNineSixtySix (talk) 18:52, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

At the risk of repeating myself, the flags featured here all represent the particular piece of ground, either on its own or as part of a larger unit. There is no single flag that represents this territory; those mentioned here all do or have done, to various audiences in various contexts. Maybe 40% of the people who live in Northern Ireland regard the Irish flag as their flag; that's a pretty good reason for including it. Brocach (talk) 19:11, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

No, it's not a good reason for including it. That flag IS NOT a flag of Northern Ireland, never has been and never will be. All the other flags on the page are either current or historic and directly pertain to the province. That's why they are there and why the tricolour shouldn't be. No problem with it featuring in the Flag debate article though. SixtyNineSixtySix (talk) 19:16, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

There doesn't seem to be a consensus forming about this topic, any objections to an RfC or is there a preferred method of decision? I think the options are a) keep as is b) have a photo c) remove the flag d) merge with the flags issue article. Can we cut the options down to the more likely? Dmcq (talk) 19:36, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Before I get much older I'd like to know what difference a photo would make. Brocach (talk) 19:47, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

I think a photo in the section 'Displaying flags' would illustrate displaying flags and it should be possible to have some wording under it linking it to the flags issue described in the section. Just sticking in the flag without the context indicates that one is trying to display what the flag looks like in a way relevant to the overall topic of 'flag of Northern Ireland' rather than that section. 20:11, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Here's a few exmples

File:Peadar O'Donnells and Gweedore Bar, Derry, September 2010 (05).JPG a collection of flags including the Irish flag

File:Dungloe Bar, Derry - Londonderry - geograph.org.uk - 174228.jpg Four Irish flags outside apub

File:Artillery Flats, Belfast, July 2010 (03).JPG Flag with slogan

File:Sinn_Fein_Advice_Centre,_Castlewellan,_December_2009.JPG showing the political angle

File:Tricolours in the Croft estate,Carnlough,County Antrim.jpg two flags outside an estate

how about one of those? Dmcq (talk) 20:41, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Disagree and as far as I can see other than you and the most recent sock (6966) who's IP was blocked everyone is OK with the current contextual description and use ----Snowded ^TALK 21:32, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Well since you won't engage in a meaningful way except to revert changes I'll raise a RfC. Dmcq (talk) 21:50, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Fully engaged and following WP:BRD, you just disagree. ----Snowded ^TALK 21:53, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Reverting just on the basis of BRD and leaving out the D part is not complying with BRD. Dmcq (talk) 23:07, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Nothing at all there to explain why a photo makes any difference. I could add photos of bedraggled Ulster banners outside public toilets if that would help, but I can't think how it would. Brocach (talk) 22:02, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

I have explained again in the RfC below if you'd like to contribute there. Dmcq (talk) 23:07, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Caption to "St Patrick's saltire" pic...

...currently reads "St Patrick's Saltire is sometimes used by the British government to represent Northern Ireland when a uniquely Northern Irish flag is required." I edited this down to "St Patrick's Saltire is sometimes used by the British government to represent Northern Ireland" because it has never been suggested, outside this caption, that this saltire is "a uniquely Northern Irish flag", and because the same British government stated (in a ref provided on the article page) that the saltire is not the flag of Northern Ireland. This seems to me to be a straightforward improving edit and I don't understand why I have been reverted by SixtyNineSixtySix who gave no reason for reverting. Discuss. Brocach (talk) 20:00, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Can't say I'm fussed either way. Having both 'sometimes' and describing the circumstances seemed overkill to me but it doesn't bother me but I agree that having just sometimes on its own seems less informative than the other part. So yes I'd prefer the longer version before the change. Dmcq (talk) 20:16, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Me neither. I asked for Talk in case anyone else was bothered. SixtyNineSixtySix (talk) 20:48, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

As neither are "fussed either way" I'll restore that edit. Maybe next time, 6966 or whoever you are representing here, you could take the trouble to state a better reason for reverting a change that you're not fussed about than "in case anyone else was bothered". Brocach (talk) 21:39, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Wording on saltire

I thought the following para a bit clumsy in that it equated a flag to "countries": "The Saint Patrick's Saltire is sometimes used by the government to represent Northern Ireland alongside the other countries of the United Kingdom, and is the centrepiece of the badge of the Police Service of Northern Ireland." I amended it to "The Saint Patrick's Saltire is sometimes used by the government to represent Northern Ireland alongside the flags of England, Scotland and Wales, and is the centrepiece of the badge of the Police Service of Northern Ireland." This seems to me to be a straightforward improving edit and I don't understand why I have been reverted by SixtyNineSixtySix who gave no reason for reverting. Discuss. Brocach (talk) 20:03, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Not a strong feeling again but yes I preferred the more specific version listing the countries. Dmcq (talk) 20:20, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

This one I do have a problem with. It seems designed to remove the suggestion that Northern Ireland is a country. I'm ok with province personally, but country is also acceptable and removing these references is controversial, so best leave it as it is. SixtyNineSixtySix (talk) 20:55, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

RfC: Should the Flag of Northern Ireland article show the flag of Ireland?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Should the article show the Irish flag in the section Flag of Northern Ireland#Displaying_flags? This issue was discussed above in #Inclusion of Irish flag but there was no consensus. Options I can see are

1. Leave the section with the flag as is because many people use it to show their identity.
2. Show a photo of a flag with the Irish flag in it illustrating the displaying flags and the flags issue (some possibilities listed above).
3. Remove the flag as not a flag of Northern Ireland and so not relevant to the article topic.
4. Merge the article into the Northern Ireland flags issue as there is no official flag specifically for Northern Ireland.

Which options would you agree or disagree with and why thanks. Dmcq (talk) 22:09, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

• Option 1. The Flag of Northern Ireland article basically says that Northern Ireland has no flag. It then goes on to discuss flags which routinely are or have been displayed in NI. The tricolour is unquestionably a flag that is routinely displayed, therefore it should be left as it is. Merging, while it may seem an obvious solution, is not ideal (a) because a reader wanting to know about a flag does not usually want to know about an "issue", and (b) because the Issue article should be (although it's not; it's a mess of an article!) about actual debates, disputes and riots over flags, not factual information about the flags themselves. Scolaire (talk) 22:43, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Would you support merging the current issues article into this one then? Dmcq (talk) 08:01, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

No, I would support retaining the flag article as is and improving the issue article. Scolaire (talk) 21:22, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

• Any of 2,3,4. Nobody is claiming the Irish flag is the flag of Northern Ireland or represents Northern Ireland. As the article says ' Irish nationalists and republicans fly the Irish tricolour to show their support for a United Ireland' Nowhere does it say that the flag represents Northern Ireland in any way. I'd be happy with a photo in the section about displaying flags because it would illustrate the subject of the section and that's what images should do, and an Irish flag in that context is fine by me to show there is a flags issue. Dmcq (talk) 23:01, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
• Option 1 per discussion above and Scolaire ----Snowded ^TALK 03:34, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
• Option 1 Scolaire as ever explains it well. The article needs fleshed out a bit to explain the background to those unfamiliar with the topic but I don't see anything there that doesn't accurately and neutrally report the reality on the ground. Valenciano (talk) 22:46, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

There is no explanation of why showing the flag as a flag is a better illustration than a photo for the displaying flags and flags issue section. Scolaire complains about the issues article just showing flags rather than dealing with the topic and discussing the issue and yet that is what is being advocated here in the section referring to that article. Dmcq (talk) 10:02, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Dmcq, you opted to start an RfC when there was a lively discussion taking place. Please allow the RfC to proceed and don't try to turn it back into a discussion. That is only defeating your own purpose. Those who !vote know their own minds and do not need to justify their reasoning further. Scolaire (talk) 10:11, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Do not engage in personal attacks. I raised the RfC as there was no general consensus here and looked like little prospect of one or of any progress. People are supposed to justify their reasons in a WP:RfC. The C stands for 'comment' not just saying yes or no. Dmcq (talk) 13:51, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

No personal attack intended. I have explained on your user talk page. Scolaire (talk) 17:41, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Simply enough because the article speaks about flags in both official and unofficial use in Northern Ireland. In that context an illustration of the flag of Ireland seems justified. Valenciano (talk) 06:19, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

• Option 3, per Dmcq. — Jon C.^ॐ 18:56, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
  • I could live with option 2 as a second-best, too. — Jon C.^ॐ 08:36, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
• Change the article name to Flags used in Northern Ireland (well one can hope) 85.210.102.71 (talk) 21:06, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
• Option 3, It never had any status in NI and shouldn't be on here. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 15:54, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
• Option 1 per Scolaire's reasoning. ÓCorcráin (talk) 19:43, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
• Option 1 as per previous comments. Brocach (talk) 20:15, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
• Option 3, but failing that, Option 2. The Irish flag has no official standing in Northern Ireland (nor has it ever had), so it shouldn't be shown formally in a box. However, it is flown extensively in Northern I, so a photo of it, preferably alongside other flags, and in the appropriate section, would be a good compromise. The Roman Candle (talk) 07:48, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
• Option 1 or 2 AND reverse 4 - Northern Ireland flags issue should be merged into this page. Having a "flags issue" page is unusual for disputed territories. Usually flag debates are described on the flag of XXXX page. NickCT (talk) 22:20, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
• Option 3 or failing that option 2 - the flag doesn't represent Northern Ireland as an entity in any shape or form, and Irish republicans wouldn't want it to either - the flag represents the Republic of Ireland and for republicans an all island state that doesn't exist. Northern Ireland doesn't exist to Irish republicans. In response to NickCT, Northern Ireland is not a disputed territory as no other state lays claim to it - the Republic of Ireland signed away it's claim in 1998. Mabuska ^(talk) 21:11, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

• Having actually looked at the image I in fact may lean more along the lines of option 2 as it would fit better in my opinion than the current image, and it does have place in that section. However I think the explaination of the flag's meaning should be omitted and left to the actual Irish tricolour article or a more indepth explaination given of how for unionists it represents republican terror and also sectarianism in contrast to what it is meant to mean. Mabuska ^(talk) 21:18, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Just looking roughly at it but 6 for option 1 and 5 for anything other? No consensus for any view so where does that leave the situation? Mabuska ^(talk) 22:45, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

No consensus for change as it stands ----Snowded ^TALK 02:56, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

I do not see that as a convincing consensus, if there is disagreement about inclusion of something in Wikipedia the usual action is to remove the item. Wikipedia is not a democracy. I would like a couple more people along so as to make it fairly certain otherwise I think it should wait for arbitration by an uninvolved admin. Would you like an admin to come along now? Dmcq (talk) 07:58, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Consensus is needed for change - inclusion or exclusion. At the moment the argument appears to be between "its used extensively so it should be there" and variations of "Northern Ireland has nothing to do with the Irish State so it shouldn't". Use tends to dominate over ideology in Wikipedia. But an uninvolved admin should close ----Snowded ^TALK 09:03, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

If consensus is needed for change then the status quo from about 2007 - inclusion of the Irish flag - prevails. Brocach (talk) 15:33, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

I have asked for someone to come along at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Requests for closure#Talk:Flag of Northern Ireland#RfC: Should the Flag of Northern Ireland article show the flag of Ireland? Dmcq (talk) 12:41, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

It always makes me laugh when I see the word "consensus" used in connection with any Irish-related matters on Wikipedia; you're not going to get it! Face it guys, the Irish articles are fixed in a perspex mould for ever and a day. This is exemplified by Brocach's comment mentioning 2007. The point he makes is, of course, totally irrelevant in Wikipedia but there you go. With Irish articles one can't even get a compromise - the photo of the tricolour is, to my mind, an excellent compromise - but it's a "No" to that as well. Having said all this, I have noticed a couple of traits characteristic of editors to Irish articles. One is to make a very bold (pov type) change in the hope that it will go un-noticed, and the other is to build up a pov bit by bit using small but subtle changes which are trivial in themselves but which add up to the restating of some position or other. The Roman Candle (talk) 15:56, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Brocach's statement is perfectly valid and logical as far as it goes. If you assume that premise then the conclusion follows. Dmcq (talk) 17:24, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

I doubt that Irish articles are any more or less susceptible to editing than articles on any other country well known to English-language WP editors. There's always a bit of to-and-froing, but a broadly agreed core content emerges and develops. It is hardly irrelevant to note that the flag has been a stable feature of the article for 7 years in relation to a bold proposal to drop it. And I pleaded a while back for an explanation of why a photo of a flag is somehow "a compromise" on including a plain graphic; I still don't understand what difference it makes. I'd be happy to have all the flag graphics substituted or supplemented by photos of them hanging off lampposts. Brocach (talk) 21:51, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

I've explained a couple of times but I'll repeat myself. The picture there is a picture of a flag design. A photo of one flying in Northern Ireland would be an illustration of the flags issue showing people feel strongly about flying it. It would illustrate the topic of the section it is in rather than the overall topic. It would not be an illustration of the flag itself. An illustration of a flag shows the correct dimensions pattern and colours and nothing else irrelevant to that. Dmcq (talk) 22:40, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your patience. Call me stupid but I still don't get it. Should we have photos of all the flags in situ, since each one has a constituency that feels strongly about flying it (or feels strongly about dangling it limply 24/7 halfway up a lamppost until it rots to nothing), and/or should we have simple graphics of them all? What is the difference between a photo and a graphic representation, and should one or some flags be treated differently, if so why? Brocach (talk) 22:51, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Well others seem to find the distinction easy and I really don't see how I can explain better so sorry, better just let an admin come along and close. Perhaps someone else can have a go. Dmcq (talk) 13:48, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

I think the crux of it is that many believe there should be a distinction between the flags which are official (the Union flag) or semi-official (the St Pat's saltire) and the ones which are flown unofficially by various groups (paramilitary flags, the ROI tricolour, etc.) around NI. There is a separate article about the flags issue. — Jon C.^ॐ 15:18, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that's it exactly. An unofficial flag such as the tricolour should not be shown in the article in a formal setting, but a photo of it flying would be useful in the discussion about other flags seen in the province. I still think there's an opportunity for this option to be brought forward. See Flag of Cyprus where there's a similar issue. The Roman Candle (talk) 15:43, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

none of the flags are official for Northern Ireland. Two have some official standing in context. So why are you picking out the tricolour?----Snowded ^TALK 15:50, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Because the tricolour has no official or semi-official standing whatsoever. It just happens to be seen a lot in Northern Ireland, as the Greek flag is seen in Cyprus. The Roman Candle (talk) 15:57, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Here's one for the pedants. Is it not technically the case that, as the six counties were part the Irish Free State until two days after its creation, the tricolour was for that period the official flag in the North? Brocach (talk) 16:07, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

If you want to be pedantic the tricolour wasn't the flag of Ireland till 1937. However more to the point we should follow Wikipedia guidance, so have you got any sources saying it has ever been the flag of Northern Ireland? Dmcq (talk) 17:21, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

The Flag of Ireland article states that "In the Irish Free State which existed between 1922 and 1937, the flag was adopted by the Executive Council." No date given. Brocach (talk) 15:26, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

• Option 4. Northern Ireland has no official flag of its own, so it's a bit odd to have a Flag of Northern Ireland article. The Northern Ireland flags issue article should be able to cover all the material, although it's in need of work itself. 46.7.236.155 (talk) 12:34, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
• Tough call. I'm fine with the status quo, because it's basically indisputable that some residents of North Ireland are republicans who fly the tricolor (pardon, tricolour) to express that belief. On the other hand, as an American, I'd find it ridiculous and somewhat offensive if the Confederate flag were displayed in Flag of the United States, on the grounds that some Americans fly it due to their political beliefs, even though this is also true. But the situations aren't directly comparable. A no consensus close may feel like a cop-out, but it's the only thing I can really see as being appropriate here. Since the status quo doesn't entail any outright falsehoods, this seems like an acceptable outcome. If we're going to make a change at all, we may take a cue from the flag of Cyprus article and mention the Irish flag without depicting it. --BDD (talk) 04:47, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Flag of the United States doesn't have a section on the display of flags by people of differing political allegiances, so your analogy is imperfect. TBH, I'm surprised that the 2nd National Flag of the Confederate States of America is not shown under "similar flags", especially when the 1st National Flag is. I know it's a cross on a plain background instead of a rectangle on a background of stripes, but it's still similar. Scolaire (talk) 18:42, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Closing. I have to say that #3 seems the most sensible to me, but I see a rough consensus for going with #1. Please don't change away from this usage unless (1) you get a merger consensus with the flags debate article, or (2) you have another RFC here with a different consensus. Nyttend (talk) 19:57, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Misleading lede

The intro to this article is misleading, as it suggests there is no "official flag" for Northern Ireland. Yet, in an official capacity, FIFA and some other organisations, use it to represent Northern Ireland.

A comparison can be made, to some degree, with regard to the flag of England - a flag that also does not have "official status". Both flags are civic flags, and both are used to uniquely identify the relevant regions. The problem lies not with the status of the flags ('official' or otherwise) but rather with the usage (or, in the case of some loyalists, mis-usage).

While the flag is considered contentious by some, it remains the only flag that uniquely identifies Northern Ireland. There has not been a replacement, thus far. This article is biased toward sensibility, rather than fact.

--24.88.64.22 (talk) 23:16, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

The government says "The Ulster flag and the Cross of St. Patrick have no official status and under the Flags Regulations are not permitted to be flown from Government Buildings." Dmcq (talk) 00:15, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

This legislation has been used by Irish Nationalist editors here to attempt to censor the Northern Ireland flag over the past few years (and quite successfully they have been given how ridiculous the articles on this topic now read). One crucial detail, however, has been omitted when discussing said The Flags Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2000 act is that this act restricts the definition of the phrase "government buildings" to 7 specific buildings, namely:

Adelaide House, Adelaide Street, Belfast.

Castle Buildings, Stormont Estate, Belfast

Churchill House, Victoria Square, Belfast.

Clarence Court, 10-18 Adelaide Street, Belfast.

Dundonald House, Upper Newtownards Road, Belfast.

Netherleigh House, Massey Avenue, Belfast.

Rathgael House, Balloo Road, Bangor, County Down.

i.e. these are specific buildings under the Northern Ireland Office (based out of UK capital, London); the regulations in that act apply only to these specific buildings, and not to government buildings in Northern Ireland as a whole. The purpose of this legislation was merely to ensure the UK flag on NIO buildings. The Northern Ireland flag is still flown from several councils and other government-owned buildings throughout Northern Ireland.

Therefore, the Northern Ireland flag needs to be reinstated at the top of the article as, regardless of how the UK government flies the UK flag on UK buildings, the Northern Ireland flag is factually the de facto civic flag of Northern Ireland and has not been replaced. It is the only flag on the whole page that actually even is a flag of Northern Ireland, the others being a flag of Ireland as a whole and a flag of the United Kingdom as a whole. It is also quite ridiculous that this article has placed the St. Patrick's Cross ahead of the Northern Ireland flag given that, ironically, the St. Patrick's Cross was also mentioned in the same bunk legislation used as an excuse to wrongly demote the Northern Ireland flag! Jonniefood (talk) 19:18, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

The flag of Northern Ireland is officially recognised by the Registered Designs Act 1949 as amended by the Registered Designs Regulations 2001 which states in Schedule A1

(2) A design shall be refused registration under this Act if it involves the use of (a)the national flag of the United Kingdom (commonly known as the Union Jack); or (b)the flag of England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland or the Isle of Man,[1]

Eckerslike (talk) 14:35, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

There is nothing there saying the Ulster Banner is currently the official flag of Northern Ireland. It simply went out of use in 1973 and is no longer an officially recognised flag of northern Ireland. It can of course be used by sports clubs etc but that does not make it any more the flag of Northern Ireland than any other sports emblem. The government has been quite specific about this and if it really has to show any flag for Northern Ireland it shows the St Patrick's Saltire though it also is not the flag of Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland does not presently have any official flag except the Union Flag. Wanting to turn the clock back more than forty years does not actually turn the clock back. Dmcq (talk) 18:20, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

I've fixed the second link whaich had gone wrong, just download the pdf from that page and it describes the situation and the government regulations pretty well. Dmcq (talk) 18:35, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

The reference is not to show that the flag is official but merely that the UK government acknowledges that there is a flag of Northern Ireland in the same way as it does for England, Scotland and Wales. Yet the requirement that something needs government approval in order to exist seems peculiar to Northern Ireland. St. George's and St. Andrew's banners fell out of official usage upon the merger of the kingdoms of England and Scotland and yet there are no qualms about referring to them as the Flag of England and Flag of Scotland. Wikipedia is guided by common (not official) use.

According to the manual of style the "first sentence should tell the nonspecialist reader what, or who, the subject is" (WP:BEGIN). In this article it clearly fails to do that. Instead it effectively says "the subject of this article does not exist". I have therefore changed it to describe in what ways the Flag of Northern Ireland is or was used.

I have a more radical proposal. As all the content in this article is already covered (or could be) by the Ulster Banner, Saint Patrick's Saltire or Northern Ireland flags issue articles. It could be converted to a simple disambiguation page that links to some or all of those articles. 20:26, 2 April 2016‎ Eckerslike (talk | contribs)

Another example is that there is no "government approval" needed for the flag placed at Ulster either, yet no-one is trying to eradicate that from Wikipedia (and that article tries to strictly define Ulster as a "9 county" entity, despite no government defining this). Notice also that the flag of the Republic of Ireland has been placed at "Flag of Ireland" without a St. Patrick's Saltire in sight -- again, where is the government approval for this, or the consistency with the Republic of Ireland article? The simple reason for the differing approaches is that unlike any of the other examples, these Irish Nationalist editors simply want it their way and Northern Ireland wiped off the map, and will use any propaganda method possible to de-legitimise it. Your "radical proposal" is a terrible idea giving them exactly what they want - to wipe out any legitimacy for Northern Ireland by effectively deleting the "Flag of Northern Ireland" article in all but name. I don't agree either with your opening to state it is controversial as you even go on to state it isn't the symbol it is Northern Ireland existing in the first place. The Irish Tricolour is also a controversial symbol in certain contexts, yet we don't see the badly named article on the Irish Tricolour opening by stating how controversial it is (and nor should we)Cauleyflower (talk) 22:40, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Dcmq, the word "de facto" is what the Northern Ireland flag is accurately described as, yet this accurate description keeps being reverted by Irish Nationalists. Putting aside the fact that the government is not the be-all-and-end-all here, you also need to define what you mean by "the government" because the version of the article you reverted made a distinction between the UK central government and local government (several councils of the latter flying the Northern Ireland flag today). The UK government "regulations" you mention apply only to 7 specific UK central government buildings as listed above, buildings which probably only ever flew a Union Jack in the first place, so irrelevant. St. Patrick's Saltire does not represent Northern Ireland, it represents Ireland (as explained in the version the Irish Nationalists keep reverting, and described as a flag of a "united Ireland" in the government link), and not permitted either in the same "regulations" section for these 7 buildings. The flag of the United Kingdom represents the United Kingdom, not Northern Ireland. Yet, in this article you are attempting to place the only flag which represents Northern Ireland below two other flags which do not even represent Northern Ireland at all - absurd!!! The UK treasury has also made coins featuring the Northern Ireland flag as recently as 2002.

Considering Northern Ireland is not sovereign, sports are one of the only few ways Northern Ireland ever gets represented internationally on its own, and we aren't talking about mere "clubs", rather every single official sports body that competes internationally as Northern Ireland uses the Northern Ireland flag today. Cauleyflower (talk) 22:40, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

The flag is the de facto flag for Northern Ireland regardless of a minority of the population who oppose it for obvious reasons. Dmcq's argument has also been shown to be based on an inaccurate or partial reading of legislation. Mabuska ^(talk) 00:01, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

It is an important symbol for a large number of people in Northern Ireland but it isn't the flag of Northern Ireland. Personally I'd be quite happy for the Irish tricolour to go away from the article but by that same argument it should be here. By the way the only flag that may be flown at magistrates courts is the Union Jack and that covers another 22 locations I believe. Dmcq (talk) 01:09, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

The Ulster Banner on the coin was for the Commonwealth Games where it is used to represent Northern Ireland. I think the bit in the article about that should be moved from the section on displaying flags up to the bit about the Ulster Banner. Dmcq (talk) 11:23, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

The lead is just silly now. Yes there used to be a flag of Northern Ireland but there is no longer one. The Ulster Banner now has no more status than the Irish tricolour, at least St Patrick's Saltire is used by the government sometimes. The article Northern Ireland flags issue is the one about the flags issue. The start of this article should make the current situation clear before going on to anything else. There is no controversy about the current status of the Ulster Banner, it is not the flag of Northern Ireland. What is true is that the Ulster Banner used to be the flag of Northern Ireland. However there is no longer any such thing as the flag of Northern Ireland, therefore the flag of Northern Ireland can't have been used in the past. The lead sentence "The Flag of Northern Ireland was used by the Northern Ireland parliament from 1953 until its abolition in 1973" is simply wrong and confused. Dmcq (talk) 10:35, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

"Yes there used to be a flag of Northern Ireland but there is no longer one". More nonsense. The only flag which is actually defined as representing Northern Ireland didn't magically disappear just because the parliament closed down, and common civic use did not stop. England doesn't even have a Parliament, yet the English flag is not censored; neither does Ulster, and neither do any of the flags of the Irish counties have any government endorsement.

"The Ulster Banner now has no more status than the Irish tricolour". Absolute claptrap. Besides from the fact that the tricolour doesn't even represent Northern Ireland, rather a foreign state, it does not have:

• dominant common civic usage (this one is enough on its own)
• usage on local government buildings
• historical precedence with royal warrant
• A recognised design protected by UK legislation
• Official use by publicly funded sports bodies which represent Northern Ireland internationally.
• Recent 2002 usage by the Royal Mint (Department of the Treasury) and precedent on Royal Mail stamps.
• Has not been superseded at Stormont

Cauleyflower (talk) 18:33, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Dominant common civic usage? By that do you mean that there are more Unionists than Nationalists? If so that by itself is if anything a reason why it does not represent Northern Ireland but a sectional interest. Do you really want a rerun of the Troubles or are you willing to abide by the Good Friday Agreement and have parity of esteem? I'm pretty certain you dislike Nationalists flying the Tricolour and various other flags, are you saying that because they fly them they have the status of an official flag of Northern Ireland?

The illustrations of the Ulster Banner on stamps and the coin has been of the flag in the Commonwealth Games. That does not mean it is the official flag of Northern Ireland any more than any of the flags used to represent all Ireland sports teams are the official flag of some United Ireland.

The Ulster Banner is no longer the flag of Northern Ireland. "The Ulster flag and the Cross of St. Patrick have no official status and under the Flags Regulations are not permitted to be flown from Government Buildings." Notice 'no official status'. Dmcq (talk) 21:21, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

By the way what district councils do you know of that still show that flag? Plus which stamp was it that showed the flag?, I had a look up where I thought was meant but there was nothing there. Thanks. Dmcq (talk) 07:47, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

An Irish Nationalist, by definition, does not want Northern Ireland to exist as an entity, therefore I think you are being quite disingenuous in complaining that Irish Nationalists aren't flying a flag of somewhere they do not want to exist. Please stop your nonsense about the tricolour -- you know rightly it isn't intended in any way to represent Northern Ireland.IrishBriton (talk) 20:18, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

"Government buildings" in that legislation is defined as the 7 buildings above, not all government buildings. You also have to define what you mean by the word "official". Note that the edit you are reverting is primarily describing it as "de facto" which means it isn't necessarily official IrishBriton (talk) 20:22, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

http://www.belfastcity.gov.uk/equality/docs/FlyingOfUnionFlagEQIA.pdf has a list of some councils but not all. Ards Borough Council, Carrickfergus Borough Council, Larne Borough council, and Castlereagh Borough Council are all verifiable as having recently used it more than 4 decades since 1973, though councils have now all merged in the past year.IrishBriton (talk) 20:18, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Note: in the version of this which has been reverted I fixed numerous incorrect dates and added verifiable vexillological information which now has been deleted. IrishBriton (talk) 20:18, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Well at least your edit was little better than the mess that is at the start of the article now. The historical information about the Ulster flag and its source would fit better in the Ulster Banner article though I suppose it could go in a historical section further down the article. The current status is what the article is better left dealing with. Assertions about de-facto flag are simply opinion and are contradicted by the government giving it no status and its rejection by a large part of the population. By the way the link you gave above for councils that might still be flying the Ulster flag has suffered linkrot so I guess it is a bit out of date. Dmcq (talk) 21:33, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Northern Ireland has devolved government within the United Kingdom, so the question to be asked is, what does the Northern Ireland Assembly and/or Executive have to say on the Ulster Banner? That is what will determine whether it is the "de facto" flag of Northern Ireland. The Registered Designs Regulations 2001 do not say that the Ulster Banner is the flag of Northern Ireland, and in any event cannot be considered authoritative on the question of whether Northern Ireland has a flag. It could easily just be a slip on the part of the drafter. The regulations are concerned with "packaging, get-up, graphic symbols, typographic type-faces" etc., not with "civic usage" of emblems. The fact that the flag is flown (or was in 2004) over the buildings of three unionist-dominated councils only tells us that it is the "de facto" flag of Ulster unionists. The fact that it was the flag of the Government of Northern Ireland during the years that unionists controlled the state by means of what even Ian Paisley accepted was discrimination (Irish Times, 31 December 2014) tells us little more than that it is the "de facto" flag of Ulster unionists. Failing some pronouncement from the Northern Ireland Assembly or Executive (or alternatively, some reliable, authoritative academic source), we cannot say that it is the civic flag of Northern Ireland. Scolaire (talk) 14:51, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

I agree with you about the civic use, in that the St Patrick's Saltire even has a better claim now. However I do think the Ulster Banner should have been in the lead section along with the Union Jack and Saltire in that it is still used for the Commonwealth Games and there can be a reference to it having been used in the past as the official flag of Northern Ireland. The starting sentence 'The Flag of Northern Ireland was used by the Northern Ireland parliament from 1953 until its abolition in 1973' just strikes me as being really silly - at most one could say 'The flag which used to be the flag of Northern Ireland was used by..' but that is silly too. Really it should just start with saying there is no current official flag specific to Northern Ireland as it should describe the current sate first. Dmcq (talk) 15:17, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

That's easily fixed. Now it says everything in four short sentences. I would agree with promoting the image of the Ulster Banner to the top. No purpose is served by pretending it wasn't used officially. Scolaire (talk) 15:54, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Scolaire is bringing in a lot of irrelevant political nonsense into this discussion. Perhaps "civil" is a better word than "civic", but the whole point in the word was to express use outside government, with regards to which there is no other flag so it is de facto.

Dmcq, How does St. Patrick's Saltire have a better claim? It's never flown anywhere except on St. Patrick's day, with the government acknowledging in the source provided that it's a flag of all-Ireland rather than Northern Ireland. You will rarely see a St. Patrick's Cross at a Northern Ireland football match, and many things on Wikipedia are decided by common usage. I'm not sure why the lede mentions the PSNI either with regard to St. Patrick's Cross, as another point that could be added above is that the Northern Ireland Fire and Rescue Service still use the centrepiece of the Northern Ireland flag in their logo. Jonniefood (talk) 17:28, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Except it's not true to say "there is no flag of Northern Ireland" as an opener. There very much is a flag, and only one, which has ever had acceptance as being Northern Ireland, still with some use today, just not complete. Go to any sports match and there will only be one dominant flag flown. I think the previous edit by Cauleyflower also stated in the lead that it was not used by the Northern Ireland Assembly, but then the current Northern Ireland Assembly is not a normal functioning democracy capable of agreeing such a thing in the first place! Jonniefood (talk) 17:26, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

I agree as regards the Patrick's Cross. There is no citation in the article for it being "sometimes used by the government to represent Northern Ireland". Some editor in the past just had a thing about it, I think. I wouldn't be sorry to see it taken out altogether. But there is no flag of Northern Ireland. There is a flag that to a section of the people represents Northern Ireland, but that doesn't make it the flag of Northern Ireland. Scolaire (talk) 17:51, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Well I suppose there's nothing saying it is the official unofficial flag, I guess it is just the assumption from its use for instance by the Queen for the barge Gloriana. Of course loyalty to the Queen doesn't exactly sell the idea to a part of the populace and they'd prefer to use a different symbol ;-) It does indicate though that the Ulster Banner is most certainly not a de facto flag of Northern Ireland. That de facto is just some editors idea and not backed by any evidence of government support. There just isn't a flag that can be called the flag of Northern Ireland at the moment. Dmcq (talk) 23:59, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Ah, yes. I see that the "Saint Patrick's Saltire" section does reference the Gloriana. But that whole section is undue weight. A brief mention in the body of the article is enough. It doesn't need to be in the lead and it doesn't need an image. Scolaire (talk) 08:42, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

It has more status in government regulations than the Ulster Banner so it should at least be shown. The UK flags regulations state that besides the various official flags the flags of St David and of St Patrick are not official but may be flown without special permission [[2]] Dmcq (talk) 10:09, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

But the article isn't about what "may be flown", or what is official. The use of the St. Patrick's Cross in England as part of the Home Nations "set" is only trivia as regards the (existant or non-existant) flag of Northern Ireland. The lead says, rightly, that the Ulster Banner was used by the Northern Ireland parliament from 1953 to 1973, and there is, rightly, a section devoted to it. It also says, rightly, that Northern Ireland currently doesn't have a flag, but there's no use burying our head in the sand and pretending that readers don't come to this to find out about the Ulster banner. Putting the Union Jack up on top is in essence saying to the readers, "you'll learn what we decide you'll learn". Scolaire (talk) 15:19, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Well I wouldn't call the use by the government of the saltire trivial to the extent it should be removed, and especially if the Irish tricolour is being left in. The saltire comes third in the article after the Union Jack and the Union Banner which I think is reasonable.

As to the flag of Northern Ireland I think the various efforts to find a new flag so something generally acceptable can be used in sports meetings has become noteworthy. The bit about the Ulster Banner should repeat and perhaps expand about its current use in sports - the lead should be summarizing the article. Or perhaps there should be a separate section talking about sports. Dmcq (talk) 17:26, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

De facto by definition means without the approval of the law or government, so why on earth are you stating that you need the government to be de facto??? It is very commonly used, the only NI flag to have existed, (even still within certain branches of government) and the lede needs to reflect this.

As for the St. Patrick's Cross, it only indirectly represents Northern Ireland as Ireland under the Union Jack. The Westminster government has flown it on St. Patrick's Day, but that isn't just to represent Northern Ireland, rather all Irish. If included, it needs to be stated that St. Patrick's Saltire represents Ireland as a whole. I think all 3 need to be in the lede with Ulster Banner at top, but better to move the older Ulster Banner variants to their own section. Jonniefood (talk) 18:30, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Where is your citation by a reliable source saying that the Ulster Banner is the de facto flag of Northern Ireland. Last I looked at a poll about a possible replacement nothing like it occurred near the top. The lead does reflect that it is commonly used - there is more on it than anything else.

It is true that the saltire was set up to represent the whole of Ireland. But I hardly think that the government is claiming all of Ireland currently whether in the Union Jack or its other uses of the saltire! Dmcq (talk) 22:36, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

By the way I believe Larne is the only council to fly the Ulster Banner and does it around the Twelfth. Anyone got a citation for that or know if there are any more? Dmcq (talk) 22:22, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

The lead has been considerably revised since the current flurry of activity began. As Dmcq says, this version makes very clear the extent to which the Ulster flag is used today, as well as its historical use. This version actually obscures this by adding in details of the design and origin of the flag that belong in the article body, not the lead. But more importantly, "The only flag to ever officially represent Northern Ireland uniquely" is unencyclopaedic. The article should state the facts of how it was used and when, not puff it up in the opening sentence. I also agree with Dmcq that it would be desirable to get something more recent than the 2004 EQIA as regards what councils (if any) still regularly fly the flag. The 2012 EQIA has a similar table for other councils, which conspicuously fails to mention the Ulster flag – see here (click "Download the appendices for the final report on the flying of the Union Flag"). Scolaire (talk) 09:05, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

That version does not make it clear at all, rather it opens with a highly controversial, inaccurate and non-verifiable lie stating that somehow we who actually reside here in NI are somehow imagining things, along with descriptors such as "abandonded" when clearly this is not the case. It then deleted valuable content contained in this version -- a version which only stated the facts without any big brash controversial statements.

As for saying "details of the design ... belong in the article body", well that is in contradiction to practically every Wikipedia article on flags which open with a brief description of the design. For example, at random:

"Flag of Germany"

"The flag of Germany is a tricolour consisting of three equal horizontal bands displaying the national colours of Germany: black, red, and gold.[1] The flag was first adopted as the national flag of modern Germany in 1919, during the Weimar Republic.

Germany has two competing traditions of national colours, black-red-gold and black-white-red, which have played an important role in the modern history of Germany. The black-red-gold tricolour first appeared in the early 19th century and achieved prominence during the 1848 Revolutions. ..."

"Flag of France"

"The national flag of France is a tricolour flag featuring three vertical bands coloured blue (hoist side), white, and red. It is known to English speakers as the French Tricolour or simply the Tricolour (French: Tricolore).

The royal government used many flags, the best known being a blue shield and gold fleur-de-lis (the Royal Arms of France) on a white background, or state flag. Early in the French Revolution, the Paris militia, which played a prominent role in the storming of the Bastille, wore a cockade of blue and red,[citation needed] the city's traditional colours..."

The situation with the Northern Ireland flag is much more akin to that of the Flag of England, as described very similarly:

"Flag of England"

"The flag of England is derived from St George's Cross (heraldic blazon: Argent, a cross gules). The association of the red cross as an emblem of England can be traced back to the Middle Ages, and it was used as a component in the design of the Union Flag in 1606; however, the English flag has no official status within the United Kingdom. Since the 1990s it has been in increasingly wide use, particularly at national sporting events."

So are you now going to edit the Flag of England article and say that there "is no flag of England"???

Or how about you also go and edit the Flag of Ulster article and say "there is no flag of Ulster" since of course no government ever had legistlation for this???

"Flag of Ulster"

"The Flag of Ulster is a historic banner used to represent Ulster, one of the four provinces of Ireland. The Red Hand of Ulster is a symbol that is either derived from the O'Neill dynasty, then the most prominent Irish clan in Ulster, or the Dextra Dei of early Christian iconography. The gold background featuring a red cross comes from the coat of arms of the Burkes, a Hiberno-Norman noble family."

Or even the controversially named Flag of Ireland article, without a St. Patrick's Cross in sight. Opens like this:

"Flag of Ireland"

"The national flag of Ireland (Irish: bratach na hÉireann) – frequently referred to as the Irish tricolour (trídhathach na hÉireann) – is a vertical tricolour of green (at the hoist), white, and orange.[1][2]

The proportions of the flag are 1:2 (that is to say that, as flown horizontally, the flag is half as high as it is wide). The Irish government has described the symbolism behind each colour as being that of green representing the Gaelic tradition of Ireland,..."

So are you going to edit these latter articles and point out that there is no Flag of Ireland since on Wikipedia Ireland is an island, and place all content in "Irish Tricolour"??? No, I didn't think so. Jonto (talk) 14:55, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Posting a wall of text and quote boxes is not as clever as you seem to think it is, and if I fail to respond to something you said, it's not my fault. With the exception of the flag of England, all the articles you point to are standalone articles on the banners themselves. The Ulster Banner has its own article. In that article, it would be appropriate for details of the banners design to go in the lead. Interestingly, it doesn't. The Ulster Banner article does, however, say in the lead that the flag is "a symbol of Ulster loyalism and a contentious symbol." That is what distinguishes this flag from the other flags you point to, and their "official status" is a red herring, as both I and Dmcq have pointed out more that once. You say that a version of the article says "that somehow we who actually reside here in NI are somehow imagining things". Presumably, then, "we" refers to unionists. I would be very surprised if non-unionists – anything up to 45% of the population – have any sense of the flag belonging to them. A flag that is divisive and representative of one section of the people cannot be called the flag of that place. Scolaire (talk) 16:11, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

There is no reason for a separate article as there is only one unique flag of Northern Ireland. Most people in Northern Ireland who have no problem with Northern Ireland existing and hence have no problem with our flag. Those who do not want Northern Ireland itself to exist will never be happy with ANY symbol of Northern Ireland and are a MINORITY of <20%. It is not the flag per-se which is contnentious, and the article already mentions flag controversies at the bottom and the fact that it is mainly flown by Unionists in the 1st paragraph. If anyone doesn't like flag they can politically campaign to get another one, but until that point the article cannot pretend that there is not a commonly flown flag for Northern Ireland. You, despite living in another jurisdiction, are trying to use Wikipedia as a political campainging tool for change -- that is not what this is meant for.

Jonto (talk) 16:40, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

As I said above find some citation saying it is the de facto flag of Northern Ireland. That is what the flag of England has. Wikipedia works via citations from reliable sources. As to support for the flag 'we are a Protestant Parliament and a Protestant State' kind of sums up what it symbolizes. The Union Jack does not have the same baggage, it is quite wrong to assume everyone who dislikes the flag is against Westminster. Dmcq (talk) 16:58, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Here you go. Firstly, a couple of references that support common usage of 'Flag of Northern Ireland' as a synonym for the Ulster Flag are a Britannica and BBC articles. There is also a research paper which called Flags Monitoring Project 2006. Of particular interest are the table on page 41 which shows that the Flag of Northern Ireland represents the overwhelming majority of regional flags on display in Northern Irish streets. Eckerslike (talk) 17:27, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

I don't know if you read page 1 where it says that the study "recorded 4,136 political or party symbols along arterial routes or in town centres...3,725 of these were loyalist/unionist and 394 were nationalist/republican." So that figure includes the 1,545 Union Jacks plus the 1,310 "Ulster Flags". Of course, nationalists and republicans don't have a "regional" flag so it's not surprising that unionists and loyalists should have a monopoly. However, this study suggests that the article needs to be edited to highlight the extent to which this flag is a sectarian symbol in Northern Ireland. Especially when we read Transforming Conflict: Flags and Emblems, which says on page 46: "In other areas of Belfast there were also examples of a reduction in the number of paramilitary flags with both Union and Ulster flags more prominent. In 2001 paramilitary flags appeared all along the Shore Road and Tigers Bay clearly designating which part was controlled by the UVF and which by the UDA. Again, in 2004 these have been replaced by Union and Ulster flags." That's pretty conclusive! Scolaire (talk) 15:25, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure what your point is. Dmcq asked for references to establish de facto usage, I supplied 3 documents that all use the term to refer to the Ulster Banner. The last also quantifies the extent of its usage. Of course its a loyalist symbol, Northern Ireland is a loyalist construct. This should be pointed out in the lead paragraph but does not disqualify the flag from being a symbol for Northern Ireland.Eckerslike (talk) 19:44, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

I agree with IrishBriton above when he says that "you have to define what you mean by the word 'official'". Simply opening saying whether it is "not official" or "was official" is just not very precise. What on earth does "official" mean? This will vary depending upon the country of reference, and there are many flags here on Wikipedia which aren't granted status from any country yet don't have it as the opening line (Flag of Ulster a good example, with Flag of England perhaps the most similar in terms of status). Within the UK, the NI flag is still is "officially" represented by the publicly funded bodies which organise the Commonwealth Games etc., so we have to say who we are talking about granting "officialdom". This version was more precise because, while opening with a sentence containing "officially" (probably better to state that it is the "most common" and "uniquely" identifies with Northern Ireland), it still precisely stated what was meant with the royal warrant being granted to the NI government (and expired), and then went on to state that the current Assembly only flies the United Kingdom flag -- it just stated the facts. Jonniefood (talk) 17:18, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Flags Monitoring Project 2006 on page 25: "the Northern Ireland or Ulster flag which would have been extensively used by loyalists since 1972. Also, it has no official status as a flag for Northern Ireland." That's as "official" as you can get. It comes from the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister. Scolaire (talk) 18:14, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

I saw the English author of that report, Dr Dominic Bryan, on TV and he was scrolling through the Wikipedia article, so I wouldn't at all be surprised if that were a circular reference coming from here! Jonto (talk) 20:19, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Well, thanks for giving me a laugh, at least. Scolaire (talk) 08:31, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

And as far as the flag of England is concerned St George's flag is officially recognized as a national flag of England alongside the Red Dragon of Wales and the St Andrew's Cross in Scotland. The regulations also say no special permission is required to fly St David's flag or St Patrick's flag, however they are not counted as national flags. The Ulster Banner has no status in the flags regulations, and as has been said in both Westminster and Stormont it has no official status. Dmcq (talk) 00:02, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

What regulations are you talking about? The status of the Flag of England is pretty much the same as the NI flag. NI flag recognised in the Registered Designs Act. Jonto (talk) 20:19, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

See [3]. "The use of the word “country” in (a) and (g) of the list above, includes any of the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man and any British Overseas Territory. The flags of St George and St Andrew are recognised as the national flags of England and Scotland, but the flags of St David and St Patrick are listed separately as they do not necessarily fall into the category of a country’s national flag." Hope that makes it clear enough. The flag called the Northern Ireland flag is not counted as the national flag of Northern Ireland. It is not the flag of northern Ireland even if it is called the flag of Northern Ireland. It is fine to have it as the main subject of the lead but the lead currently seems to be trying to make out that it is generally accepted as the national flag even though it is not official. It is not accepted as such. Enough Unionists even reject it to make only a minority of the population consider it as that without invoking any special parity of esteem business. Dmcq (talk) 22:35, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

I am failing how to see how anything stated in those general guidelines corroborates anything you are saying Jonto (talk) 15:31, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I've moved the extra information describing the Ulster Banner to its article, this article isn't about the Banner design. It should be mainly about the interesting topic of how there is now no national flag for Northern Ireland unlike England, Scotland and Wales. However the lead seems to have been turned into an example of the Northern Ireland flags issue, which I suppose isn't that surprising. Dmcq (talk) 12:23, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

I would have to disagree that that should be the "main" topic. Most flag articles have more images than this. The main problem I have with moving that info to Ulster Banner is that the name "Ulster Banner" is not actually that well referenced. "Northern Ireland flag" or "Ulster flag" far more prominent.Jonto (talk) 20:19, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Well you could try raising a RfC to delete this article but I think the business of the national flag representing Northern Ireland is a notable topic separate from the Ulster Banner. Personally I wouldn't mind this article becoming a disambiguation with one option being the Northern Ireland flags issue for what this article covers and the other option being the Ulster Banner described as the flag of the former parliament of Northern Ireland. 23:05, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

I wouldn't want to delete this article rather, all content from Ulster Banner placed here because "Ulster Banner" isn't a common name. Jonto (talk) 14:57, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Well, that's out of the question, since it has been unequivocally established theat the Ulster Banner is not the flag of Northern Ireland, despite sometimes being called that. Scolaire (talk) 15:15, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

It is the one and only flag of Northern Ireland. You haven't "established" anything. Jonto (talk) 15:31, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

There is a big difference between something being called the flag of Northern Ireland and actually being the flag of Northern Ireland. It is the flag of the previous government and is not generally accepted as the flag of Northern Ireland. The only national flag is the Union Jack. Dmcq (talk) 18:20, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I have changed the misleading sentence that said "the Ulster Banner remains in use by most sporting organisations in Northern Ireland which compete on the international stage." Most sporting organisations in Northern Ireland are all-Ireland, including the Golfing Union of Ireland. Professional golf tournaments use the flag "as a flag of convenience". Similarly, the Irish Football Association doesn't use the flag, although it is used by FIFA to represent Northern Ireland. The Commonwealth Games is not a sporting organisation in Northern Ireland, either. So the question arises, does any major sporting organisation in Northern Ireland use it. Doesn't look like it. The "reference" that was given for that sentence, "Football Europe", has absolutely nothing to say on the question. It just has a tiny image of the flag off on the right-hand side. I have removed it. Scolaire (talk) 13:10, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Oh come on that's just being silly. The Northern Ireland Commonwealth Games Council issues [4] gives their flag on page 6 foir instance. The wording you put in looks okay and describes the facts though. Dmcq (talk) 17:57, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

It's not silly. The other phrasing implied that there was an Athletics Association of Northern Ireland, a Golfing Union of Northern Ireland, a Northern Ireland Rugby Football Union, a Northern Ireland Cricket Association etc. etc., all of which "competed on the international stage" and all of which had a red hand on their crest. It had me fooled. I didn't even question it until yesterday. If you have to trawl the web to find one example of its use, then it's plain wrong to describe it in those terms. Scolaire (talk) 07:15, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

It would have been better phrased "in sport when competing as Northern Ireland on the international stage"

(PS: There is a Northern Ireland Athletics association) Jonto (talk) 20:19, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

I was thinking of something like that but there didn't seem to be much else of note besides the two mentioned. I don't think the Northern Ireland Athletics Association does anything relevant to this article. Dmcq (talk) 22:58, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Can we get to the stage of stating plainly at the start that there is currently no national flag specific to Northern Ireland? Have a look at [5] for instance, they weren't talking about the Ulster Banner as being the national flag but the Union Jack. Dmcq (talk) 13:20, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

No we can't because that isn't plainly true. The fact the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is the sovereign country is what is causing your confusion. This article already states near the start that the Union Jack is flown by Stormont. I don't see in any way how your link supports your blatantly untrue claim, and Jim Allister even mentions Ulster Banner. The quotes at the start of the link are a reaction from Unionist politicians to Irish Nationalist attempts to remove the Union Jack from Belfast City Hall, rather than a comment on Haass or the flag specific to Northern Ireland Jonniefood (talk) 18:37, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Note that he talked about the 'Ulster Banner' not the Northern Ireland flag and he was saying that he was against having a flag for Northern Ireland that didn't express allegiance like it rather than being neutral. Are you saying he was wrong when he said about the Union Jack “It is our national flag and should be properly recognised as such throughout Northern Ireland and especially in Belfast.” When has anyone said anything like that about the Ulster Banner? It is not supported by all Unionists and it rejected by the majority of the overall population. It is not the official flag. It is not an unofficial national flag. Its only purpose is to mark out loyalist areas. Why can't you even follow Unionist politicians? Dmcq (talk) 21:54, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

I'm failing to see anything you are adding to the discussion here. Plucking nonsense statistics and nonsense statements out of thin air really isn't helpful. It's the only flag to uniquely represent Northern Ireland. End of discussion. Jonniefood (talk) 09:47, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

The 'nonsense statements and statistics' show that the flag no longer represents Northern Ireland. How about finding some 'nonsense statements and statistics' of your own to show it is still currently representative of Northern Ireland? Wikipedia is supposed to be built using reliable sources not editors strongly stated beliefs. Are you saying that for instance that I misquoted or misinterpreted what Jim Allister said and which was reported in that document? Produce your sources showing it does currently represent Northern Ireland rather than being something just one council shows during the Twelfth? Or that it has some more 'civic' use than as a loyalist symbol on those lampposts that people generally are getting sick and tired of seeing? And that 'nonsense statement and statistic' is based on a survey which shows less than 20% support of any kind for them. Dmcq (talk) 11:01, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

RfC: Should the Flag of Northern Ireland article say at the start there is currently no national flag for Northern Ireland

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Should Flag of Northern Ireland state at the start that there is currently no national flag of Northern Ireland? I am not disputing the main coverage should be of the Ulster Banner as the former flag and because of its current uses. Dmcq (talk) 11:44, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

There is a long discussion above in #Misleading lede. Dmcq (talk) 12:06, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support as proposer The article makes out that the Ulster Banner represents Northern Ireland by saying "The common flag to uniquely identify Northern Ireland consists of a red cross on a white field defaced with a crowned six-pointed star with a red hand in the centre. This flag is known as the Ulster Banner, or more commonly the Northern Ireland flag or Ulster flag". The Ulster Banner is still commonly called the Northern Ireland flag but is no longer the official flag and has no real use except in some games - in particular the Commonwealth Games, and as a marker for loyalist areas. The government in Westminster and the Assembly say the Union Jack is the national flag of Northern Ireland. If Westminster has to have a flag they use the St Patrick's flag. A majority of people would like to see either no national flag or have a totally new flag. The lead should be clear there is no national or official or de facto or whatever flag for Northern Ireland. It simple no longer represents Northern Ireland. Dmcq (talk) 11:44, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support - assuming you mean "...there is currently no national flag..." GoodDay (talk) 15:26, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose. You are stating more falsehoods. The government state the Union Jack is the national flag of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, not simply Northern Ireland. Westminster flies the UK flag, as already stated in article. It isn't only about government either. I wish you would also stop making up statistics with nonsense such as "A majority of people would like to see either no national flag or have a totally new flag". There is only one flag that has ever represented, and still commonly represents Northern Ireland uniquely. The current article already states the facts with regards usage, and to state that NI does not have a flag is simply a lie.

Also interesting how you not only lobbied Wikiproject Northern Ireland on this, but also Wikiproject Ireland -- is it any wonder Wikipedia articles have such a ridiculous Irish Nationalist bias? Jonniefood (talk) 16:12, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

I wish you would just check up on what you say. Here [6] for instance is an blog discussing a Belfast Telegraph survey in 2014 which asked Should NI have a new flag for civic events? and Should NI have a new flag for sporting events? Unfortunately I don't seem to be able t get to the original but they summarize it well enough "Interesting that the poll suggests that Most people do want a NI flag for sporting events at least. It is clear that the outright majority don't want an NI flag for civic occasions".

I fail to see what an inconclusive poll on a new flag has to do with the usage of the existing oneJonniefood (talk) 14:24, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

As to posting to the Wikiproject Ireland page - I didn't do that. I posted to the Ireland Collaboration page which is supposed to cover both Northern Ireland and the Republic. Dmcq (talk) 16:57, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

I've stuck the notice on the United Kingdom Project talk page too to make you happy. Dmcq (talk) 17:13, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Due to the refusal of Irish editors to have their own Republic of Ireland WikiProject the Ireland Wikiproject covers the whole island anyways regardless of the Collaboration project so should also be notified, but then so should the UK WikiProject considering NI is first and foremost part of the UK. So I have to agree with Jonniefood. Mabuska ^(talk) 23:09, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

I'll go and put it on Wikiproject Ireland then too. I put it on the Collaboration page as it deals with the troubles and the IMOS which talks about flag icons. Dmcq (talk) 09:43, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose. It exists and is de facto at the very least, and arguably more given the fact it's a protected design, has precedence, and is used by official public bodies and councils. Cauleyflower (talk) 16:44, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. It is quite OR to suggest that it is not the national flag of Northern Ireland considering how widespread its usage was and still is. Obviously Irish nationalist disagree and will argue against, but then again they always do with anything that gives Northern Ireland a sense of identity, or nationhood, or separateness from the south. Flags don't need official status to be regarded as national flags. Does England's flag have official status? Nope, but its still used as the national flag. Mabuska ^(talk) 23:09, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Actually the flags regulations refers to the St Georges Cross as the national flag of England and says it may be flown without special permission. And I believe practically the entire population accepts it as such. This seems only to have been properly cleared up officially in 2012 so I guess the Flag of England article was written before then. I've put a citation from 2013 which has a lot of history as well there. And as to OR go and tell Jim Allister he's a nationalist POV pusher, he stood up in the Assemmbly and said the national flag of Northern Ireland is the Union Jack. Dmcq (talk) 08:35, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

As may flags of all countries "be flown without special permission". Yes there are 2 flags and it depends on your definition of the word "national" - in one definition the Union Jack could be said to be national and the NI flag regional. Jonniefood (talk) 14:24, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

[7] is pretty clear about the flag of England "The national flag of England is the cross of St George." Same with Scotland and Wales. But have a look at page 10 about Northern Ireland. Dmcq (talk) 17:21, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

That reference is a research paper and in no way makes the St George flag "official". Also you are suggesting that we should "combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source.", that violates policy (WP:Syn). Eckerslike (talk) 18:41, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

It summarizes the situation and is library information for Westminster. The flags Institute maintains the registry of national flags of the UK and the full list is given at [8]. By the way the Ulster flag is included as a provincial flag at [9]. The text includes the statement "The Ulster flag is different from the Ulster Banner, which was the former flag of Northern Ireland but now holds no official status." Dmcq (talk) 21:27, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support. Northern Ireland has no flag that currently represents it, much as I would like there to be one. It makes sense to note this prominently in the Lead. Daicaregos (talk) 11:15, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. It sounds too much like a protest against the common usage. It's not good to start an article with an argument. It could however be discussed in a section further down.122.2.111.167 (talk) 13:48, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support. The "Ulster flag" is the flag of a section in Northern Ireland only. It is not the flag of Northern Ireland and there is no flag of Northen Ireland. The first sentence needs to make clear that there is no flag of Northern Ireland. Scolaire (talk) 16:55, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
• Comment. @Dmcq: Per WP:RFC the question should be brief and neutral. The TLDR and personal commentary may have the effect of keeping neutral editors away. Also, per GoodDay, the question has two "nos" in it. I would suggest "there is not currently a national flag of Northern Ireland", as being more clear than the alternative "there is currently no national flag of Northern Ireland". The sentences that follow could be moved into your "Support". Scolaire (talk) 16:55, 15 April 2016 (UTC) Done. Scolaire (talk) 20:40, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. Article is not only about what "is currently". Miles Creagh (talk) 18:11, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. This is an absurd question and just another attempt at censorship Jonto (talk) 18:15, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. WP:LEAD states that the first sentence should outline the subject of the article. This article is not about current status of the national flag of Northern Ireland. Eckerslike (talk) 18:41, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

I think the very notable topic is the fact that there is currently no national flag for Northern Ireland. Dmcq (talk) 21:29, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

@Eckerslike: Following WP:LEAD, if the article began ' The flag of Northern Ireland was ... ' would that work for you? Daicaregos (talk) 10:27, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

That was the version I proposed but was reverted. Eckerslike (talk) 15:28, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support The flag of the Executive Committee of the Privy Council of Northern Ireland is not the Flag of NI as it doesn't have an individual flag just the Union Flag. Mo ainm~Talk 23:53, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

You've just explained the paradox of the issue quite well Mo ainm (talk · contribs)... it was the flag of the Executive Committee of yadda yadda however it was used by many common folk (then and today) to represent Northern Ireland regardless of that entity, which hasn't existed for over 40 years. So clearly just because it is no longer official in the sense that the entity it was created and assigned too no longer exists, doesn't mean that it isn't the flag for Northern Ireland according to many, maybe the majority, of people in NI. Whilst it may no longer have official status in that sense, quite clearly it is a national flag just like for you and many nationalists/republicans the Irish tricolour is seen as the national flag of the island of Ireland despite the fact it never has had any true official status as such. Mabuska ^(talk) 00:34, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

I think over a third of Unionists reject it completely now. Dmcq (talk) 10:07, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

You can think lots of things, doesn't make them true!!!! IrishBriton (talk) 17:11, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Exactly, where is your evidence Dmcq for your third of Unionists? Mabuska ^(talk) 02:19, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

I haven't got presentable evidence of that figure but I'd like you to consider two other figures. In the 2014 NILTS survey less than 20% of Unionists identified as Northern Irish [10], and as far as supporting flags on lampposts, which is the main use of this flag, see [11], graphs 3 to 6 are about what protestants feel which show that it is only amongst urban working class protestants where support for them is slightly greater than annoyance with them. So I think the only reason so many still think of it as the flag of Northern Ireland is because they don't know better. There is a reason people stand up and say the Union flag is the flag of Northern Ireland you know. Dmcq (talk) 12:24, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

I should really be ignoring this as you are discussing other issues which don't support your claim, but the NILT survey only gives you one option and doesn't let you choose both identities (they aren't mutually exclusive, and neither are the flags). Both flags need to be discussed and the article already does this adequately with the distinct one first. Restricting the discussion to those on lampposts isn't really a fair representation either.IrishBriton (talk) 14:34, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose. Undue weight. The Clyde Valley (talk) 00:20, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support As per others, the flag of the Executive Committee of the Privy Council of Northern Ireland is not the Flag of NI as it doesn't have an individual flag just the Union Flag. We would not, in an article about Ohio, identify the United States flag as the flag of Ohio. Nor would we identify the Canadian flag as the flag of Alberta, etc. LavaBaron (talk) 01:30, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

It isn't simply the flag of the Executive Committee of the Privy Council of Northern Ireland as became more widespread after 1953. In 1953 the government released a statement at the time of the Coronation saying:

‘the desire of a number of people to fly a flag distinctive of Northern Ireland’ and declared that it had ‘no objection to the flying of the government banner’.

W B Topping, Minister of Home Affairs at Stormont, in 1959 said that:

'in 1924 the government of Northern Ireland was granted arms by royal warrant and it had the right to display these arms on a banner or flag, and to say to what use this banner may be put. It was this banner, he said, which was generally known as the flag of Northern Ireland and the government had authorised its use by any citizen on any festive occasion.'

IrishBriton (talk) 17:11, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support There is currently no official flag that represents Northern Ireland, "doesn't mean that it isn't the flag for Northern Ireland according to many" which is true, Mabuska, but a national flag has to be of a nation, from people to government and as of 1972 it is not. As has been shown in sources given supporting the RFC, and not unproven by the, well there is no sourcing in this by those opposed. Murry1975 (talk) 08:53, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

From people to government? So the Tibetan flag we all recognise represents the local government of the region? The same for the flag of Kurdistan which doesn't even exist as a country of government? Cornwall has a flag that is regarded as the national flag but it has no status and is used in it's article. The Ulster flag (yellow version) is the flag of a province that hasn't existed in terms of official governance for centuries. Is Ulster a nation of its own? More people in Northern Ireland identified as Northern Irish than Irish for their nationality in the 2011 census so the Irish nationalist argument that "Northern Irish" isn't a nationality or identity has little tract. How can Northern Ireland what is frequently called the "national team" in regards to football if not a nation? Exclude the Irish nationalists who always want to undermine any notion of NI being truly distinct from the rest of Ireland and the issue is not a problem, but then again that has always been their problem... the failure to accept that what became NI is distinct from the rest of Ireland. Mabuska ^(talk) 02:19, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

And with 9 opposes and 7 supports, it's quite clear that Dmcq's proposal is a non-runner due to lack of even a working consensus. Mabuska ^(talk) 02:22, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

This is not a question of nationality Mabuska, it is a question of the Flag of Northern Ireland, or lack of one at the moment. I do agree that the nationalist problem of "one Ireland" on here is tedious at times. This is solely a question of what is the flag, if any. And please don't bring sport into it or we are going to have more flags than you can shake a stick at. Murry1975 (talk) 15:07, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Good point, that'd bring in too many flags lol :-D Mabuska ^(talk) 23:38, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

RfC isn't a vote. The disparity here is not big enough to override the evidence. I would expect the decision would have to be made by an admin. 10:46, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Then you shouldn't have turned it into a poll by stating "Support as proposer". That only encouraged every editor afterwards to vote with either support or oppose so that's your own fault, but it still shows that their is no consensus and that is what we work with here on Wikipedia. If Wikipedia worked solely with facts and evidence then the city of Derry article would be titled Londonderry. Also why should an admin have to make a decision on something that is obvious? Mabuska ^(talk) 23:38, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

I gave reasons for what I said. Have you any evidence showing that the Ulster Banner is still representative of the people or government of Northern Ireland? Or are you just going to say it is obvious that... Dmcq (talk) 08:14, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

You haven't given a good enough reason for me to support changing the introduction of the article. It sums up the status and usage of the flag pretty well. Can you prove that it is wrong or inaccurate? Mabuska ^(talk) 17:06, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

It breaks WP:Neutral point of view pretty badly and does not summarize the article with due weight. It is a curate's egg full of omission and spin. Dmcq (talk) 20:20, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

If you think so with your opinion, but I don't see it and from the looks of it just about most other editors don't either. Mabuska ^(talk) 13:01, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Well it is possible I'm too close, so I've asked at WP:NPOVN#Flag of Northern Ireland RfC and hopefully see what some uninvolved person thinks. If they don't all run a mile on hearing it's about Northern Ireland. Dmcq (talk) 10:09, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose. That is not a statement which is true, and the third sentence already states the exact situation with regards to the royal warrant adequately. IrishBriton (talk) 17:11, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support per sources, if someone can show a proper third party sources which contradicts the current statement then we can look at it again. ----Snowded ^TALK 10:34, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment. It's not actually current. It was changed by...let's say a number of editors acting in concert. Hence the RfC. Scolaire (talk) 10:55, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment I believe that was supposed to be an Oppose but misread the RfC. Dmcq (talk) 12:08, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
    • Please clarify the RfC then ----Snowded ^TALK 12:21, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
    • I read it as saying Snowded supports stating at the start that there is currently no national flag of Northern Ireland, which was the "current" version until the recent flurry of activity. Scolaire (talk) 12:39, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
      • Correct, although I wasn't 100% confident of my interpretation of the question ----Snowded ^TALK 14:21, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

Okay I've struck out what I said. Support means the lead should say there is no official flag or that it is not the national flag. Oppose means it should not have anything like that in. Dmcq (talk) 15:20, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

• Comment With respect I should like to ask a question relating to the establishment of consensus. Reading through the above and examining the profiles of the editors it came to my notice that two of the editors supporting the motion openly declare themselves to be Welsh nationalists. Welsh nationalism does not have the support of the vast majority of people in Wales yet these two editors are having a disproportionately high influence in supporting an Irish nationalist inspired motion. Shouldn't there be a rule that disqualifies the involvement of self proclaimed nationalists from backing up sister causes on the grounds that it distorts natural consensus? Centuryofconfusion (talk) 12:45, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

That's just great. On another talk page I've had someone else saying I'm a British nationalist POV pusher because I removed a bit saying Terry Wogan was an Irish broadcaster, and here I'm a Irish nationalist POV pusher for saying the Northern Ireland flag is not official and no longer the national flag. I see you specially went to the bother of getting yourself a Wikipedia username to say that. Could you just avoid that sort of thing thank you if you're going to contribute to WIkipedia. Dmcq (talk) 13:01, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Centuryofconfusion you need to be careful. In Wikipedia you are meant to address content issues not comment on other editors. If your suggestion on nationalism was correct then we would probably exclude editors with pictures of King Billy on their user page or for that matter those who make multiple accusations of an Irish Nationalist conspiracy. Here what matters is references so if you can find something which says the Red Hand is an official flag then we can look at it. Persist in the conspiracy theory approach and various accusations and other editors and you could find yourself sanctioned ----Snowded ^TALK 14:01, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Reading the introduction again, it seems to me that the situation is already fully explained. Why the need to add negative comments? Why are you so keen to state that it's not the official flag? It's the de facto flag and that's already clear in the introduction. Why make an issue over this? My opinion remains that this motion has been motivated by by people with an axe to grind, such as Welsh nationalists. Centuryofconfusion (talk) 16:58, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

It's not the de facto flag of Northern Ireland. It's the flag of a section in Northern Ireland. It's sectarian and it's divisive. Even the Irish Football Association is trying to dissuade supporters from waving it and get them to wear green instead. Scolaire (talk) 17:22, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

@Scolaire:. Really? First I've ever heard of wear green instead of waving the FIFA recognised flag of the Northern Ireland football team. If they were as you say trying to dissuade supporters from waving it, then maybe they shouldn't have it on the pitch alongside the opponents flag pre-match... Mabuska ^(talk) 19:25, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

See here: "Then they created the Green and White Army. They persuaded people to wear green and white rather than red, white and blue. It was to refocus football away from politics on to sport. It became Brand Northern Ireland." Scolaire (talk) 06:21, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

See your prejudice coming through. You can't hide it. How could the flag possibly be sectarian? Elaborate please. Centuryofconfusion (talk) 17:35, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

It is the emblem of a government which was 'a Protestant Parliament and a Protestant State' and set up things like the B Specials so it is not a symbol Catholics can identify with at all easily. But we go by cited sources on Wikipedia so can I point you to for instance [12] where it says "This particular flag of Northern Ireland is seen as staunchly Loyalist because of the Crown, the Star of David, and the Red Hand of Ulster". I don't know where they get the idea about the Star of David but Loyalists seem to fly the Israeli flag too sometimes for some odd reason. Dmcq (talk) 23:45, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

In solidarity with the Israeli's as they suffer at the hands of Palestinian terrorism (whether merited or not). Just like the Irish Tricolour is seen as the flag of Irish republican terrorism, which isn't far from the truth considering its usage since its inception and the fact its used as the flag of a state founded by terrorism... just like Israel ironically. Mabuska ^(talk) 19:33, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Now your true colours are emerging in full in all their bitterness. You've switched your attack to the B specials and to protestants. I have yet to be made aware of what the B specials are supposed to have done that was so bad, but I don't really want to hear it from you since you are obviously so biased. Wasn't the Irish republic a catholic nation for a catholic people? http://indiamond6.ulib.iupui.edu:81/faithandpol.html You sound like the pot calling the kettle black. Centuryofconfusion (talk) 03:33, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I'm afraid this discussion has strayed far from content and has in fact degenerated into a sectarian free-for-all. Probably time for a close. Miles Creagh (talk) 04:30, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

Well I tried to answer 'How could the flag possibly be sectarian? Elaborate please.' though I guess the question was rather rhetorical. A bit Alice in Wonderland the contradictions that have to be believed - so it isn't sectarian but anyone pointing out sectarian problems with it is sectarian and therefore I suppose the reasons given are to be ignored. Well that certainly is rather hermetic reasoning. I'd like to see some evidence it is a de facto flag of Northern Ireland even amongst Unionists. Dmcq (talk) 08:36, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose. Why would the article state that NI does NOT have a national flag official or otherwise ? NI is not a nation anymore than Wessex, East Anglia, Thames Valley, wherever, nor do I believe any group claims that NI is a distinct nation. There is Northern Ireland flags issue, which seems the apt place for making clear how/why some people do/don't like 'the banner'or other alternatives. Wording other than 'nation/al' could be used here to say there is currently no universally agreed, distinct flag for NI ITSELF. Summoned by bot Pincrete (talk) 18:37, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

I didn't notice that word "national" in the question. It shouldn't be there. Are you saying you are not opposed to the lead saying there is no flag for the region? Scolaire (talk) 14:11, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Scolaire, that slightly asks the question back-to-front. Clearly certain flags are de facto used for semi-official purposes, inc sport and continue informal use by some people. Clearly there is a history of use of 'the banner' and there is official use of the Union Flag though coverage of that is in danger of being PoV at times. Then perhaps a sentence saying that there is no official, agreed, distinct flag for NI itself linking to the 'flags issue' page. IMO, why/how this is an issue to some, is more informative than whether on not any particular flag does/does not have 'official' status. Pincrete (talk) 17:20, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

I agree that the structure of the lede should be 1) reference to the de facto use of the Ulster Banner for semi-official purposes 2) reference to the official position of the Union Flag in Northern Ireland, and only then 3) reference and link to the 'flags issue' page. Miles Creagh (talk) 21:24, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Except that there is no "semi-official" use. The unionist councils are a red herring: no council has flown the flag regularly since at least 2012, and only Larne Council flies it at all, in July. Talking of its use by football supporters is worse than a red herring: it is downright misleading. As this article shows, Northern Ireland football during the Troubles was only supported by unionists, because "Belfast's Windsor Park, home of the Northern Ireland team, was a cauldron of hate while...Catholics...were growing up in the late 80s and 90s." An expert on Northern Ireland sporting history "called the atmosphere at Windsor Park 'poisonous,' noting fans used to drape the stadium’s terraces with Union flags and sing inflammatory songs. 'The chanting from the fans was often in favor of Protestant paramilitaries. Catholics wanted nothing to do with it.'" Despite the best efforts of the IFA these displays still continue, as can be seen in this YouTube video. Note the banners saying "Lambeg Loyal" and "God Save the Queen" (there is nothing intrinsically wrong with showing loyalty to the sovereign or the anthem, but football supporters do not display it on banners, except as a statement of identity). Scolaire (talk) 10:46, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

The article mentions "soccer" fans using the Union flag, not the Ulster banner. And if draping the stadium with flags and singing inflammatory songs is "poisonous" then football support as it is practiced across Europe is pretty poisonous. I've never been to a match but there's been flags draped and singing intended to be inflammatory. Parkhead is certainly bad, with the Green Brigade and what not,but not the worst I've seen. That'd have to be some of the support following the Polish national team. 13:54, 26 April 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Miles Creagh (talk • contribs)

The point remains that the banner is brought to matches by loyalists to proclaim their loyalism, and is associated with anti-Catholic and pro-UVF chants. Undoubtedly the display of the Tricolour at Parkhead is similar, but there is no pretence that the Tricolour is the regional flag (even "semi-official") of Parkhead or of Glasgow, and the display of the Tricolour for Republic of Ireland matches, of the St Andrew's Cross for Scotland matches, or of the Polish flag for Poland matches is not similar. It was a sports history expert from the University of Ulster who said that the atmosphere at Northern Ireland matches was poisonous to Catholics; that wasn't my commentary. The use of a flag for a sectarian display does not make it a flag of the region. Scolaire (talk) 15:32, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

I understand that's your point, but it doesn't seem to be supported by the article you have linked, which doesn't reference the Banner, but does reference the Union flag.Miles Creagh (talk) 16:08, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

So, you're contending that the anti-Catholic, pro-UVF "supporters" only display the Union Jack, while the Ulster Banner is only displayed by progressive, pro-Good Friday, Catholic-loving "true supporters"? Do you expect to convince anyone of that? Scolaire (talk) 18:07, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

I'm not making any contention about football supporters, you are. I don't really see the relevance, myself. Certainly, football supporters often wave flags and behave in a rowdy manner. Not sure how that helps us here. Is the Ulster banner sometimes displayed in a sectarian context in NI? Certainly. But then so is the Union flag, and so is the Irish tricolour. The simple fact of such sectarian display doesn't detract from their official or semi-official usage in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, respectively. But all this is covered in the Northern Ireland Flags issue article, which is why we should link to that article from this and be done with it.Miles Creagh (talk) 18:43, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

What official or semi-official usage are you referring to? Are you meaning the use in the Commonwealth Games? Dmcq (talk) 22:14, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

No, I am referring to the official and semi-official uses of the Union flag in Northern Ireland and the Irish tricolour in the Republic of Ireland, which are unaffected by those flags use by football supporters as sectarian symbols. Miles Creagh (talk) 23:23, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

Scolaire, you need to stop making things up with statements such as "The unionist councils are a red herring: no council has flown the flag regularly since at least 2012". This is verifiably absolute nonsense as here is a Google Street View photograph of Castlereagh Council offices dated May 2015. The rest of your posting here is irrelevant ranting about how you hate the Northern Ireland football team and probably anything in Northern Ireland that isn't Irish Nationalist, hence wanting to talk down its symbolism. The Northern Ireland football team has a Catholic manager and a variety of support and continues to display the Northern Ireland flag before matches and on their shirts during internationals Jonniefood (talk) 17:21, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Indeed. And it seems from this[13] picture that the Ulster Banner is also used to represent Northern Ireland internationally in golf. Miles Creagh (talk) 19:37, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

So the Castlereagh council building displayed the Ulster Banner in May last year - they became part of Lisburn and Castlereagh City Council the previous month. I wonder what exactly was happening then or happens now. As to the golf - there's an interesting story behind that and it certainly made the news that Rory McIlroy was happy to use the Ulster Banner considering he is Catholic and it is an all Ireland association. Gives one a modicum of hope there might be an end to the sectarian business eventually. Dmcq (talk) 20:26, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Indeed, so the Ulster Banner functioned as a unifying symbol in this instance. It does seem that its use is both more widespread and nuanced than many here have allowed hitherto. Miles Creagh (talk) 20:53, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support There is no flag of Northern Ireland. The Union flag is used for the United Kingdom as a whole, but as a constituent country, there is no national flag of Northern Ireland. st170e^talk 22:17, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

Except there is, though unsurprising that users with "This user KNOWS Northern Ireland is part of Ireland." want to pretend we don't exist! Jonniefood (talk) 17:21, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

The Northern Ireland represented by that flag no longer exists. If you want to wave a flag around why not base it on the one for the current Assembly? Or help devise a new one, that would help identify Northern Ireland internationally and show the Troubles really are over. I think like someone said in the papers that it is sport that will lead this but you might like to look at some proposed designs at Commons:Category:SVG flags - proposed of Northern Ireland. Dmcq (talk) 07:40, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

What on earth are you talking about "no longer exists"?? People have been flying the same Northern Ireland flag for decades and it hasn't gone anywhere. Jonniefood (talk) 20:14, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Well as I suggested days ago, there is clearly no consensus going by the straw poll Dmcq instigated, that it should be closed. And as the conversation is getting way off-topic and way too deeply into personal opinion heavily influenced by bias, ignorance, and bigotry - I accept my own part in that too (in regards to personal opinion only). Then the stable version before the whole issue kicked off should remain. Mabuska ^(talk) 19:33, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Which stable version? Wouldn't it be much better if it was decided by looking at citations and perhaps things which aren't cited removed? Dmcq (talk) 20:38, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

This is the version that was stable for at least five years until the end of March. I would absolutely favour returning to it as an alternative to the current situation of adding things and reverting them. Scolaire (talk) 06:28, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Agree with Mabuska restore stable version as consensus won't be reached here, I also agree with the stable version proposed by Scolaire. Mo ainm~Talk 11:37, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

That version is rather old and conveniently contains the very statement that has been the subject of this request for comment, which has clearly failed to gain support. That won't do at all, I'm afraid. Miles Creagh (talk) 13:13, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Miles being as one of the main instigators for change, along with the possible sock and Single purpose accounts, of the stable version, I am not surprised you are against the stable version. So it appears that you will accept nothing but your version. Mo ainm~Talk 10:20, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

"Rather old" is pretty well the definition of a stable version. The only versions that are newer are the ones that are being edit-warred and RFCd over. Scolaire (talk) 13:50, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Mo ainm I'm not sure that I am one of the main proponents of change here, and you should in any case address content. I'm quite happy to go along with changes to the current version along the lines proposed by Pincrete above. Miles Creagh (talk) 13:55, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Don't see any proposal by Pincrete but his comment IMO is wrong there is no comparison between Northern Ireland and "Wessex, East Anglia, Thames Valley" they don't have Flag of... articles and if they did and an editor was arguing that the flag was the official flag instead of the Union Flag I would object to them also. The plain fact is that NI doesn't have an official flag except the Union Flag. And in an article called Flag of Northern Ireland to make it perfectly clear to readers not familiar with the situation it must state the the UB is not offical. Mo ainm~Talk 15:08, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

There are county flags for Wessex and East Anglia and the flags regulations expressly allow for such flags to be flown, so no problem with them. See for example Flag of Wiltshire talks about it having three county flags of which two are unofficial. The regulations refer to the flags institute rather than the college of arms when saying which flags are county flags so that article is interesting as one is from the college of arms another is registered with the flags institute and who knows about the third but I think that proposal is now dead. Dmcq (talk) 15:41, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Seems to me the article presently covers the official, de facto and common usage situations in a pretty balanced manner. No need to unbalance it with pointy language that has not found support in in this RfC.Miles Creagh (talk) 16:44, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

I don't know what this Rfc result will be. However, any attempts to show Northern Ireland as having a flag (in the manner that England, Wales & Scotland each have a flag) across Wikipedia, will likely be rejected. GoodDay (talk) 16:56, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Where in the lede does it state the official status of the UB? Is it not a pertinent point? Mo ainm~Talk 17:01, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

The third sentence of the lede covers it pretty well, in my view.Miles Creagh (talk) 17:11, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

You think that "A royal warrant was issued to the Northern Ireland parliament for use of the flag in 1924, and was in effect until the abolition of the Parliament in 1973." covers the official status of the UB? Anyone reading the article would not know from it that the UB isn't an official flag. Why do you not want this fact known? This is an encyclopedia where you should be able to find these facts. A reader looking to find the official flag of NI would assume from this article that the UB is it. Mo ainm~Talk 17:55, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes, the third sentence is very accurate as to the status of the Banner. And then the fourth and fifth sentences follow up with further information that clarifies the situation for any reader. Miles Creagh (talk) 18:25, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

The lead does not summarize the article. It does not say the flag is forbidden to be flown from government buildings - that is rather stronger than what is said there. One would have to know about Northern Ireland to know that supported by Unionists translates into that there is a northern Ireland flags issue and it is use by loyalists to mark their territory. It does not mention that in both Westminster and in the Assembly they have said the Union Flag is the national flag of Northern Ireland. It is basically a whitewash and I would like to see some sort of indication there that there was a problem about flying the flag. Dmcq (talk) 18:36, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Except it isn't forbidden, as demonstrated above is still flying from some of them. No one has said the Union flag is the "national flag of Northern Ireland", rather the national flag of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.Jonniefood (talk) 20:09, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Not to a reader who isn't aware of the facts, a royal warrant was in effect till 1973 what does that mean, has another one been issued? It raises questions that a reader shouldn't have to go to find. So if I want to find out the official status of the UB where would I go to look for it? Because this article doesn't make it clear it tells me about what is flown on buildings, royal warrants and unionists use it. I asked you before why do you not want the official status of the UB in the article? Mo ainm~Talk 18:41, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

That's why we have a link to the Northern Ireland Flags Issue article. We need to be careful that this article - which is about the historical situation relative to the Flag of Northern Ireland as much as the present - does not replicate that one.Miles Creagh (talk) 19:14, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

What on earth do you mean when wanting "official status"? What does "official" mean? "Official" according to whom? Discussing the situation with the royal warrant is far more precise. Jonniefood (talk) 20:09, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

• Comment User:GoodDay just boldly inserted a new first sentence[14] into the article. I have reverted, as discussion is underway. Miles Creagh (talk) 20:52, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Now, folks can check it over (via your link) & have an option. GoodDay (talk) 20:56, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Indeed, although while the RfC remains open it might be better if you first propose changes to the text of the article here on the talkpage, especially a change such as that, which essentially pre-empts the entire discussion here Miles Creagh (talk) 21:01, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

You mean propose changes like was done when the stable version was changed to hide the fact that the UB has no official status a version you refuse to restore. Mo ainm~Talk 23:00, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Are we done with the attempt to shoe-horn in a new first line of the lede reflecting language that has failed to gain support in this RfC? If so, we can resume discussion here. Miles Creagh (talk) 17:39, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

This RfC clearly shows that there is no consensus here so restore the stable version and then try and get consensus to change it. Mo ainm~Talk 17:42, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Unfortunately there seems to be no agreement on what version is stable. Can you explain why you think the version you reverted to here[15], with the new first sentence inserted by GoodDay just yesterday, should be regarded as "stable"? Miles Creagh (talk) 18:10, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

You really think that a version that was in place for 5 years is not stable? The version linked by Scolaire above is the starting point and discussion around changes to that is what we should be doing. Mo ainm~Talk 18:18, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

The stable version can not be disputed even by you, you can say you don't agree with the content but you can not say it wasn't stable. Mo ainm~Talk 18:20, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Five years? The version you reverted to was hardly stable for five minutes. Pull the other one! Miles Creagh (talk) 20:48, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

I'll AGF and not that you are being disingenuous nobody has claimed anywhere that the addition made by GoodDay was a stable version, this is the stable version that until Feb 2016 when a couple of editors decided they didn't like it and without consensens edit warred to get us to this stage we are at now where we have an article that implies that the UB is the flag of NI Mo ainm~Talk 21:00, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

So if you accept that GoodDay's version is not stable, why did you revert to it, when there is an ongoing discussion pursuant to an RfC here around the very language GoodDay tried to insert? Miles Creagh (talk) 21:12, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Possibly the same reason you removed it. But we digress, I've asked you before why do you support the removal of the official status of the UB? Mo ainm~Talk 21:19, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Probably not the same reason I removed it, as I removed it because I thought it best not to shoe-horn in new language about the very issue raised in this RfC, while discussion is on-going. You seemed to be operating on the opposite impulse. As to your second question there seems to be, to say the least, some dispute from multiple editors above about the "official status" of the Banner. For my part, I've already said that I think the lede accurately addresses the situation re: the royal warrant at present. Miles Creagh (talk) 22:37, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Can you show me the reliable sources provided that dispute the fact that the Ulster Banner has no official status. Mo ainm~Talk 22:43, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

What do you mean by "no official status"? Miles Creagh (talk) 22:46, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

I am not going to explain to you what official status means if you cant understand that then maybe you shouldn't be editing here, this is a what the Flags Monitoring Project states "This is particularly true of the Northern Ireland or Ulster flag which would have been extensively used by loyalists since 1972. Also, it has no official status as a flag for Northern Ireland. " Flags Monitoring Project Now show me a source that states the opposite or as they say, shit or get off the pot. Mo ainm~Talk 22:59, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

See, that's the problem. There is no consensus as to what constitues "official use", and even you can't define what you mean by that. The banner clearly has represented Northern Ireland in the past,(for most of its history in fact), currently has uses that seem semi-official (representing the country in international sport for instance) and even the source you provide above refers to it "the Northern Ireland flag"! That's why I think it best to stick to the facts around the royal warrant, common usage etc and not try to synthesise something to support a particular POV. Miles Creagh (talk) 23:09, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

A very basic web search will give you multiple sources that make it clear that there has been no official flag in Norther Ireland since 1972. It is notable as part of the history of Northern Ireland. ----Snowded ^TALK 23:12, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia works on what is verifiable we don't need to find "consensus as to what constitues "official use" because we can use reliable sources that show what is official and what isn't, you can not show any sources disputing what is shown here. You say we should ""stick to the facts" well the main fact that you completely ignore is that the Ulster Banner has no official status. Mo ainm~Talk 23:20, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

When you say that's the "main" fact that's your POV and probably explains why you want to shoe-horn it in as the first sentence of the lede. I think there are many facts to be communicated here, about history and common use as much as about "official" status, and we are presently discussing how to weight our presentation of them. I refer you back to my first comment on this page: "the article is not only about what is currently".Miles Creagh (talk) 01:40, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

My addition to the article is verifiable. Northern Ireland doesn't have an official flag of its own. GoodDay (talk) 01:45, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Rather than argue about whether GoodDay's edit represents the stable version, I have reverted to the stable version of 17 February, whose exact wording was stable from June 2010. None of the many alternatives should be substituted while there is a clear lack of consensus here. Scolaire (talk) 16:53, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Well, I prefer this version to GoodDay's. The language about "government-sanctioned" in the lede is better. However, it is more accurate to say that the Northern Ireland Assembly doesn't have it's own unique flag: there is of course a flag in common use commonly known as the "Northern Ireland flag" which represents Northern Ireland in various semi-official contexts. There isn't enough about this common usage at the outset in this version. Miles Creagh (talk) 17:32, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

There isn't enough about how it is only representative of one section in Northern Ireland either. It would be good if we could agree on a more accurate lead, but in the meantime it should remain at the status quo ante. Scolaire (talk) 18:14, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Amazing how many new editors or editors that haven't been active for years have turned up at this article in the last few weeks. Scolaire (talk) 18:16, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Indeed, it's also very annoying. GoodDay (talk) 18:24, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

This RfC does seem to be engaging and energising a lot of people, which is great. When you say the flag is representative of only one section, do you mean to include Commonwealth games athletes, international footballers, boxers and golfers like Rory McIlroy? Miles Creagh (talk) 18:28, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

You reverted to a version which did not have consensus in the "misleading lede" section and contained several factual errors simply talking about "the government" and that it did not have "government use" when in fact it does in local government. The recent stable version was more encyclopaedic, in-line with other flags articles, and stated the facts simply. Jonto (talk) 21:06, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

I agree the recent stable version is more accurate and encyclopaedic. Better written, too Miles Creagh (talk) 21:31, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

There is no such thing as a "recent stable version". No recent version was stable, except to the extent that editors refrained from edit-warring for a period. The only stable version is the one that was unchanged for six years. Scolaire (talk) 18:14, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Can we PLEASE leave the version in place, that Scolaire's pointing, while this Rfc is in progress? GoodDay (talk) 18:19, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

No, the version prior to RfC was not what Scolaire reverted to. Scolaire's imprecise and negative version is riddled with factual inaccuracies not supported by sources, as well as not even describing the flag in a normal way. The only reason Scolaire wants such an extremely negative version is to intentionally demean Northern Irish symbolism and identity. IrishBriton (talk) 18:43, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Northern Ireland doesn't have a flag of its own, like England, Scotland & Wales does. These whole dispute is going to end badly, for some. GoodDay (talk) 18:53, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

That is simply false. As can be verified by Britannica and the BBC. Eckerslike (talk) 22:02, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

The Britannia one says 'Unofficial flag of the United Kingdom', and the BBC article says 'But the traveller carries his flag - the former flag of Northern Ireland - far and wide'. And by the way Britannia is considered a tertiary source like Wikipedia rather than a secondary source. I wanted the article to say something on the lines of that it is unofficial like the sources you brought up say. Dmcq (talk) 00:15, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

I think the language of official/unofficial is unhelpful, imprecise and best avoided. Here for instance is a source published by Queens University, Belfast [16] that says "The flag of the Government of Northern Ireland is often called the 'Ulster flag', but we have called it by its official name, the 'Northern Ireland Flag'". Miles Creagh (talk) 01:11, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Well I haven't been disputing what the flag was officially called. And by the way that book dates from 1994. What I was disputing was making out that it is the official or national flag of Northern Ireland, or even the de facto flag in anything besides sport. Even in the Assembly Unionists argued against having a new civic flag on the basis that the national flag of Northern Ireland is the Union Jack - not on the basis that the Ulster Banner is the flag of Northern Ireland. Dmcq (talk) 10:17, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

I think the date of publication of the book is rather interesting, in that here we have two academic researchers at Queen's University writing in 1994 - 20-plus years after the proroguing of the Stormont parliament - that they intend to call the Ulster banner by "its official name, 'the Northern Ireland flag'". That book is also cited pretty widely in subsequent academic works, and is clearly a Wikipedia reliable source. Of course, only snippets are available online through Google books, but I have ordered it in "very good" used condition from Amazon and should be receiving it in the next day or two. Miles Creagh (talk) 13:57, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Miles do you even read what editors are saying to you? The name of the flag is not being disputed anywhere in this thread, but the status of the flag is and at present the flag doesn't have any official status. Seriously what part of that are you not getting? Mo ainm~Talk 14:41, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

So, Mo, you're saying you don't dispute that the official name of the Ulster banner is "the Northern Ireland flag"? Miles Creagh (talk) 14:50, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Where have I said anywhere anything about the name of the flag? Mo ainm~Talk 14:54, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Erm, in your last comment above you said "The name of the flag is not being disputed anywhere in this thread". So I'm asking if we agree that the official name of the Ulster banner is "the Northern Ireland flag"? Miles Creagh (talk) 14:59, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Are you serious? What has the name of the flag got to do with this discussion it's not up for debate but it's just another deflection from the main point which is up for discussion. Mo ainm~Talk 15:03, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Well, the name of this article is "Flag of Northern Ireland" so the fact that there is a flag officially called "the Northern Ireland flag" seems clearly relevant to me. But you're the one who seems hung up on the language of official/unofficial. I'm just asking if you accept that the official name of the Ulster banner is "the Northern Ireland flag", as the Queen's University source above suggests?Miles Creagh (talk) 15:14, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

The name of the article is not up for discussion, there is also a Flag of Ireland article suppose you would argue using the logic you are here that it represents the 6 counties because they are on the Island of Ireland. Mo ainm~Talk 15:16, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

No, the name of the article is not up for discussion, but articles on Wikipedia are supposed to be about what they are about, aren't they? Miles Creagh (talk) 15:20, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Recommend you look over the article Northern Ireland. There's a reason for why no flag is shown in its infobox. GoodDay (talk) 15:18, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Couldn't agree with you more Miles, maybe we are getting somewhere as this is an article about an historic flag that doesn't have any official status as a flag. So why wouldn't that be added to the article? Mo ainm~Talk 15:23, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

So, your position is that the subject of this article is the historic Flag of Northern Ireland, commonly known as the Ulster banner, and officially known as "the Northern Ireland flag"? Miles Creagh (talk) 15:29, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

My position is that the Ulster Banner has no official status as a flag in NI, and hasn't had in over 40 years that is what we are discussing here nothing else. So I'll ask again as you have refused to answer every time I have asked why do you refuse to acknowledge that it has no official status and why is this not in the article? Mo ainm~Talk 15:37, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

The situation with the royal warrant is already discussed in the leading paragraph, with more detail below.Jonto (talk) 20:45, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

It isn't "historic" as it is still in use and hasn't been replaced. It's also "official" in certain contexts and not in others therefore simply stating "not official" is not true. The version of the article prior to this nonsense RfC already detailed the exact situation with regards to royal warrant, and more exactly states the content of any legislation regarding flags. Jonto (talk) 15:42, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Fortunately, Mo ainm, you don't get to circumscribe our discussion to the narrow question of whether the flag is official or unofficial today, and you haven't even stayed within those self-imposed bounds consistently yourself, as you have just indicated above that you think ths article is about the historic Flag of Northern Ireland, and that the article should be what it's about. I tend to agree with that, and there are style guidelines on Wikipedia that can help us here. The Wikipedia:Manual of Style says that the first thing a lead section should do is identify the topic. The question we need to ask is whether the topic of the article is in fact the historic flag of Northern Ireland, commonly known as the Ulster banner, officially known as the Northern Ireland flag? I think that very clearly is our topic, and we should identify it as such in the first sentence of the lead. We can then note the controversy over its present status and uses in subsequent sentences. Miles Creagh (talk) 15:57, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

None of you, who support the usage of the Ulster Banner, will likely get the flag adopted as Northern Ireland's flag, throughout Wikipedia. GoodDay (talk) 16:04, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

We're discussing this article, not all of Wikipedia. 16:06, 3 May 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Miles Creagh (talk •

contribs)

Why GoodDay, are you Lord of all Wikipedia? lol Jonto (talk) 20:45, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

You may lol, all you wish. Take note, there's no flag in the infobox at Northern Ireland. -- GoodDay (talk) 20:50, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

I do think the article should mainly be about the historic flag but a major part should be about the current status. The Ulster Banner is the main one about the actual flag itself. I would not be adverse to this article disappearing altogether and the Northern Ireland flags issue article could cover everything that wasn't covered by the Ulster Banner article. However I would have a problem with this article just being about the Ulster Banner and the Ulster Banner article disappearing as the issue of a new flag for Northern Ireland is notable but would not fit reasonably in the Ulster Banner article. Dmcq (talk) 17:04, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

There's probably a coversation to be had about the various articles in this area, but first I think we ought to finish with the question you asked in this on-going RfC. I agree with you that the topic of this article should be mainly the Ulster banner, also commonly known as the Flag of the Government of Northern Ireland, the Northern Ireland flag, the Northern Irish flag or the Ulster flag. And I note that, per the Wikipedia manual of style, we are supposed to "identify the topic" at the outset in the lead. So when I see proposed first sentences that don't even mention the main topic, I have to object on stylistic grounds. Miles Creagh (talk) 18:12, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

If this article was just about the emblem known as the flag of Northern Ireland then the article should be removed as the Ulster Banner covers that topic. I see the topic as the flag emblem of the country Northern Ireland. And currently there is no official one which is very notable as countries normally do have a flag. Dmcq (talk) 09:11, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

Not just about, but mainly about the emblem known as the flag of Northern Ireland,as I thought we had agreed? Miles Creagh (talk) 14:43, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

I do not see that as the topic of this article, it just would have the major part talking about that flag because it was the official one and still is used for a number of purposes. The article that has that flag as its topic is the one on the Ulster Banner. Dmcq (talk) 20:36, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

What you are saying now doesn't seem quite consistent with what you said at the start of this RfC: "I am not disputing the main coverage should be of the Ulster Banner as the former flag and because of its current uses" and what you said just a couple of comments ago above that: "I do think the article should mainly be about the historic flag but a major part should be about the current status." (My emphases). Do you really mean to suggest that what an article is "mainly about" is not the topic of the article? Miles Creagh (talk) 21:16, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

I was just being sloppy with my words, I was describing what I considered the contents should be comprised of, here you asked specifically about the topic. Do you really think this article should duplicate the Ulster Banner article? Dmcq (talk) 23:36, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

I think there's a case to be made for merging the Ulster Banner article into this one. And, yes, it does appear that you were "just being sloppy with your words" when framing this RfC. Miles Creagh (talk) 00:05, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

The Ulster Banner is not the flag of Northern Ireland, though. GoodDay (talk) 01:19, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

Except it is, and the article already details where it is used and where it isn't. Jonto (talk) 20:45, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

There is a genuine notable topic in the status of the flag emblem of the country called Northern Ireland. Or how would you like me to distinguish between the topics? I think if this article was to go it should be made into a disambiguation page with the options of the Ulster Banner and the flags issue in Northern Ireland. Dmcq (talk) 08:06, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

I'd say the status of the flag is, and should be, the main topic of the Northern Ireland flags issue article. Miles Creagh (talk) 14:18, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

Then would you support the deletion of this article and its replacement by a disambiguaion page? Dmcq (talk) 16:06, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

No, I would support the deletion of the Ulster Banner and its replacement by a disambiguation page leading to this article. The Ulster banner is, after all, more commonly known as the Northern Ireland flag.Miles Creagh (talk) 17:42, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

Northern Ireland Flag is indeed far more common but better probably just to leave things alone. No disambiguation page as this one discusses both the Northern Ireland flag and the use of the Union Jack quite well 20:45, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

So what exactly do you think the topic or the title of this article should be if you are against disambiguation? Dmcq (talk) 21:22, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

• Support What has changed since the article was created by a Wikipedian whose interest was flags and not NI? Bosley John Bosley (talk) 12:56, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

The article has become more detailed and precise, that is what has changed. And how do you know his interest was not NI -- that initial edit used a rather controversial political statement regarding Unionists.Jonto (talk) 20:45, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

Have a look at the users page and contributions Mevsfotw~enwiki (talk · contribs). I agree his statement would annoy many but I can see no evidence that he had any particular interest in anything except flags of the world when making the contribution. The most that can be said about his statement is that though almost certainly true he did not base it on a citation, but that was 2003 when Wikipedia was more of a free for all. Dmcq (talk) 09:41, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose It is unclear what this RfC is even about. The article and content seems adequate as it is in this revision and already covers flag statuses appropriately. BoutYeBigLad (talk) 13:40, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

I take it you disagree with the chap in this video So you think you know the Northern Ireland flag? for instance? Dmcq (talk) 16:23, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

There is nothing there that isn't already in the article. It supports that there is a common flag and the status is already explained in more detail here. BoutYeBigLad (talk) 18:54, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

• Support - In an article called "Flag of Northern Ireland", surely one of the first things it should note is the fact that there currently isn't a "widely accepted" flag of Northern Ireland. The flags of the United Kingdom, England, Scotland and Wales are all acknowledged as their national flags, both officially and by the public. Northern Ireland has neither a de jure nor de facto national flag. This is backed up by numerous sources, most importantly by the British Government and the Flag Institute.
  The Ulster Banner has no official standing, and unlike the other flags, it is not allowed to be flown from British Government buildings or court-houses. The Ulster Banner is used only by loyalists/unionists, and in some sporting events (other events use other flags for NI). Half the population don't acknowledge it as their national flag, and it's widely seen as a contentious or problematic symbol (as is the Irish flag), not only by nationalists. This is also backed up by numerous sources. However, the current lede implies that the Ulster Banner is "the common flag" of Northern Ireland. Outside the loyalist community, the St Patrick's Flag is actually used more widely as a "flag of Northern Ireland" than the Ulster Banner. It's used by both communities (such as on St Patrick's Day), the British Government sometimes allows it to be used officially to represent NI, it appears on the badge of the PSNI, and it's used in some sporting events.
  Given that Northern Ireland doesn't have a widely accepted flag, it seems odd to have a page with that name. Maybe we should merge and redirect this page to Northern Ireland flags issue? The Ulster Banner and St Patrick's Flag have their own articles. ~Asarlaí 18:31, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Sigh - yet another Irish editor appearing and spreading falsehoods. It has common use as listed numerous times above by every sport competing as Northern Ireland and by local government -- it is de facto, and no other flag represents Northern Ireland distinctly. Those sources don't back your point up at all. I'd like to know what "other flags" you mention are used for NI because there aren't any I can think of. When you talk about "government buildings" you really mean "central government buildings" and I don't know which "other flags" you are talking about which are normally flown from such buildings or court houses as it is the Union Jack flown as common throughout the UK -- you are unlikely to see an England flag on those either. Irish Nationalist editors in the past tried to word legislation enforcing the Union Jack as that the Northern Ireland flag is somehow "not allowed" -- rather different things entirely, and the latest versions of this article word things more in-line with the legislation.

Then we have the nonsense statistics with no supporting evidence on what apparently "half" the population think. The Irish Nationalist minority are not half the population of Northern Ireland and do not support Northern Ireland itself existing therefore are unlikely to support *any* flag of Northern Ireland for political reasons (and hence the desire to delete this article by certain editors with similar political leanings).

As for St. Patrick's Cross -- absolute rubbish. As someone who actually lives in NI it is rarely seen other than on St. Patrick's Day (and there to represent Ireland as a whole, not Northern Ireland). It may appear on the badge of the PSNI, but the NI flag also appears on the badge of the fire service. I don't know what sporting events you're talking about, but I have never seen it.

The article already covers the common, and only, flag to distinctly represent Northern Ireland including status; as well as the statuses of flags used by central government. It should be left alone, as this nonsense claiming the Northern Ireland flag somehow doesn't exist is little other than a politically-motivated attempt at censorship Jonto (talk) 20:56, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Dormant editors, sudden appearances to revert

There's something suspicious going on, with dormant editing accounts showing up & making reverts on this article. GoodDay (talk) 19:22, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

There does seem to be a fair amount of reverting going on, by editors who are not involving themselves in the discussion here. I wish they would. Miles Creagh (talk) 14:44, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

See above: Yet another long dormant account, now has joined the Rfc discussion. There's something fishy going on here, folks. GoodDay (talk) 13:57, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Assume Good Faith. Miles Creagh (talk) 14:12, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

That's about 3 or 4 mysterious appearances. I've been around the 'pedia for over 10-yrs & I have an eye for such things. GoodDay (talk) 14:25, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

Quite a lot of activity but it seems to go from one extreme to the other. The opinions in the RfC seem to be exactly equally divided too so would it not be better to get something that combines things a bit? One set of reverts practically totally removes the Ulster Banner and the other practically totally covers up that even Unionist MLAs now disown it. We don't have to be like [17]. Dmcq (talk) 15:04, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

Both sides seem determined that their POV should be shoved down our throats in the first sentence. I would prefer a more conventional lead sentence such as

The Flag of Northern Ireland was used by the Government of Northern Ireland from 1953 until its dissolution in 1973. It has since continued to be used by....

It states how the flag has been used (the use by the Government being the single most important example). Other more abstract questions should be left to the body or reader to decide. The Ulster Banner article already exists to describe the flag itself so to repeat that seems redundant. Frankly the whole article is a bit redundant but the idea of changing it to a disambiguation or redirect seems to be a non-starter. Eckerslike (talk) 16:55, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

That is supposing the topic is the Ulster Banner. It doesn't really cater well for the situation where an MLA can stand up and say the national flag of Northern Ireland is the Union flag. The topic needs to be described in the first sentence or at worst two. Dmcq (talk) 19:03, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

I don't see your problem. NI has both a distinct regional and a sovereign flag to complement each other, and the article already covers the Union flag adequately. I don't agree that this article is redundant as the Northern Ireland flag, Union flag and St. Patrick's flag all need to have something said about them, logically opening first and foremost with the only distinct flag to represent NI. Jonto (talk) 19:59, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

Dmcq, I did finally receive the Queen's University book in the post and have added it as a source to the article. On p 42 it quotes the following, from the July 2nd 1953 edition of the Belfast Telegraph: "For the first time, the Northern Ireland Government banner was flown as a flag over Parliament Buildings today in honour of the Queen's visit. The banner consists of the Red Hand of Ulster on a white background surmounted by a crown. During the coronation celebrations, the Minister of Home Affairs announced that while the Union flag was the only standard officially recognised, those who wish to have a distinctive Ulster symbol might use the banner." This is interesting, in that it tends to suggest that there is nothing new about a public official saying the Union flag is the national flag - even the only "official"flag - while also acknowledging that the Northern Ireland flag may be used to represent Northern Ireland distinctly. That, it appears, was the situation then, as it is now. The book also suggests on the same page that if anything the Northern Ireland flag became more popular as a common flag among the people after 1972. Miles Creagh (talk) 22:01, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

Regulations are issued to local government by the Department for Communities and Local Government and there's an MPs briefing and a plain guide to flags which all talk about national flags. It isn't under statute law but the Red Dragon for instance is most definitely recognized as the national flag of Wales. We have this for instance about flying the St George's flag on government buildings

The national flag of England is the cross of St George.......

St George’s Day takes place on 23 April each year, and under the current guidance, the cross of St George may be flown from UK Government buildings in England where a building has two or more flagstaffs, but it cannot be flown in a superior position to the Union Flag. Only if a UK Government building has more than one flag pole, can the cross of St George be flown. The Union Flag takes precedence over all national flags and the cross of St George is not flown on any other days.

Lots of stuff in British law are by common custom or regulation. They reference the flag institute for the national and other types of flags even though it is not a government institution. Dmcq (talk) 23:45, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

I quite agree that lots of stuff in British law is by common custom. This is a country with a famously unwritten constitution, after all. Which is why I think the language of official/unofficial isn't especially helpful to us here, and why it is more accurate to refer to common use of the Northern Ireland flag, as the lede does at present. Miles Creagh (talk) 00:04, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

The problem here is what is the topic? I consider the topic to be the status of the flag emblem of Northern Ireland rather than the actual flag that used to be that emblem, that 'the flag of Northern Ireland' now refers to something that does not exist as far as the government is concerned. As far as I can see there is no heading under the flags regulations to fly the flag even from a private house without special permission whereas flying St Patrick's Saltire or the county flags or a company or sports flag or even another country's flag is expressly allowed. Dmcq (talk) 08:08, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a news site or a government lackey so the idea that the topic of the article is to parrot current government policy is perverse. Particularly as the regulations you refer to are the Town and Country Planning (Control of Advertisements) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2012. Eckerslike (talk) 16:52, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Parroting government policy is perverse? Well anyway what I'd be be really interested in is fleshing out what the topic of this article is. Have you some thoughts on that? Dmcq (talk) 18:04, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Actually I think the version [18] is reasonable enough given the difficulty of formulating a good single sentence describing the topic. I guess there will be some back and forth still though. Dmcq (talk) 18:14, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Agree the version by Eckerslike before Miles edited it is a the most encyclopedic version in a while here. Mo ainm~Talk 18:43, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

My reply is in next section. Eckerslike (talk) 19:28, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

I have asked for admin closure but if you feel you can provide a reasonably NPOV closure go for it. Dmcq (talk) 22:50, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Moving on

It seems that the RfC above has reached its conclusion and all that is happening is that people are repeating the same stance over and over. I cant see any reason why an article on the flag of NI wouldn't mention that the official flag of NI is the Union Flag and not the Ulster Banner, there are numerous sources to back this up and not one opposing source saying that the UB is an official flag. I have made an edit that some what restored a version that was stable. Also must be remembered this is an article about the flag of NI not on the Ulster Banner which has it's own article. Mo ainm~Talk 16:42, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Hey, Mo! I'm afraid I don't think your latest edits reflect the discussion here, and I'd be inclined to revert then entirely, but I do think User:Eckerslike's subsequent additions and corrections are potentially interesting and I'm going to wait to see what other editors think. Miles Creagh (talk) 18:12, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

You changed what he had don't try and potray what is there now is what he left and I didn't think you would like it because the word official is in it and you want that word removed at all costs and you did remove I see with an edit summary of "It's not clear that the banner was "official" before 1973 - see the McCartney & Bryson source" does this imply that you are saying that the UB never had any official status at all even before 1973? Mo ainm~Talk 18:30, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

If you've been paying attention to the discussion, you will see that I've said at least a couple of times above that I think the language of official/unofficial is unhelpful, while the language of common use is much more in keeping with British tradition and practice in this matter. The way you want to start the article would be be akin to starting the Flag of England article by saying "England had no official flag of its own before 2012", which would of course be ludicrous.Miles Creagh (talk) 18:57, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

You seem to have provided a source that says the the Ulster Banner never had any official status and that was your justification for removing a sentence which stated that it had no official status since 73, so what does the source state was the official status of the flag? Also I have no interest in the Flag of England and if as you say, as I know nothing about the flag, that it has no official status then the article should state that. Mo ainm~Talk 19:07, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

If you look above you'll see that I quoted from the McCartney & Bryson source on this very question. Miles Creagh (talk) 19:13, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Looks to me you have found a source which states that the Ulster Banner never had any official status at all. Mo ainm~Talk 19:16, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Well, the source says that in 1953 (as now) the Union flag was the "officially recognised" national flag (and of course, no one is disputing the status of the Union flag as the flag of the sovereign government in Northern Ireland), while the Northern Ireland flag then (as now) had common use to represent Northern Ireland uniquely in certain contexts. And this article is about the Flag of Northern Ireland. It's not complicated. Well, maybe a little bit! Miles Creagh (talk) 20:12, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

The article is called Flag of Northern Ireland not the Flag used to represent Northern Ireland in certain sporting events and a few other occasions or is it not called the Common Flag of Northern Ireland, so as you say it's about the flag of NI which is the Union Flag. But leave it at that now and try get the compromise propsed below in the article. Mo ainm~Talk 20:29, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps replacing the sentence with "There has been no flag used by the government for this purpose since 1973." would work. We are not going to get agreement without using version of both lead sentences. It is in the second paragraph because the lack of use wouldn't even be notable without its creation and previous use. To dive straight into current government policy without explaining how they got there first is what resulted in my perverse comment above. Eckerslike (talk) 19:28, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Could argue using the source provided by Miles that the sentence should be "There has been no flag used by the government, only the Union Flag" but as compromise I cant see anything wrong with that suggestion Eckerslike. And is probably as fair as can be reached. Mo ainm~Talk

Yes, I'm pretty relaxed about Eckerlike's suggested language being in the second paragraph, as long as the first paragraph properly identifies the Northern Ireland flag/Ulster banner as the topic of the article. I'd also prefer to stay away from the language of official/unofficial, for the reasons I have previously given. Miles Creagh (talk) 20:11, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Right it seems that you have changed what was proposed which was the addition of the sentence not removal of other content that was added so I take it compromise is not what you want and you are now in breach of 1RR. Mo ainm~Talk 20:43, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

If the subject is the Ulster Banner then this article should be changed into a disambiguation page. The topic of people saying there is no flag of Northern Ireland or that the Union Flag is the national flag of Northern Ireland is very notable and would otherwise be part of the Northern Ireland Flags issue page. Dmcq (talk) 11:12, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

Disagree. Leave it alone. There are already two articles elsewhere with regards to flags e.g. for Flag of the United Kingdom and Union Jack. This article serves the purpose of having Northern Ireland flag as main, but also mentioning the Union Jack and St. Patrick's Cross. Ulster Banner is for more detail, though if you had to merge that content could really be merged into here rather than the other way round because "Ulster Banner" is not a common name. Jonto (talk) 11:21, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

The previous versions already stated Union Jack used by central government for official purposes. I don't understand why this has been changed. Jonto (talk) 10:33, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

Local government is also government, which uses Northern Ireland flag. A erroneous statement I keep seeing being re-inserted.

I also don't think this article is in line with other flag articles in that it now opens in talking about government, rather than talking about the flag. Jonto (talk)

That's because they actually are about national flags. And a national flag is mainly established by common consent. For England the St Georges flag has only recently become more prominent as the national flag rather like Westminster still has no special provision for England as a country like the the parts of the devolved UK. Many English people would still assert the Union Flag is their national flag but would not deny the St Georges flag if asked. But whatever the Ulster Banner has got to establish it as the national flag of Northern Ireland it certainly isn't common consent or the support of Westminster like those other flags, or of the Assembly, which as far as I was aware was supposed to express the will of the people in Northern Ireland. Dmcq (talk) 11:12, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

I agree common use and popular will are far more relevant here. The Queen's Uni source says the Northern Ireland flag became more popular after 1972. And what use is more common and popular than to represent and support the national football team? Miles Creagh (talk) 12:52, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

Dmcq what do you think of the proposal made by Eckerlike? Until the additional revert by Miles which he the self reverted I thought it was the fairest could consensus not be reached with that edit? Mo ainm~Talk 11:36, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

I tend to agree with Jonto here: a brief description of the Flag does seem to be the way most flag articles begin. Happy to stick with your preferred wording for the second para though, Mo, although it seems a bit repetitive.Miles Creagh (talk) 12:48, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

The Ulster Banner is referred to as the flag of Northern Ireland, but that does not mean that 'The flag of Northern Ireland' refers to the Ulster Banner. It can refer to the Union Flag. It can refer to nothing. The topic isn't the Ulster Banner, it is just the most prominent example of what 'The Flag of Northern Ireland' can refer to. The referring to the Union Flag and to nothing are also very notable. That said I'm happy with the version before Jonto changed it which referred to the Ulster Banner as the flag of Northern Ireland in the past tense in the first sentence Dmcq (talk) 12:55, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

I haven't seen any sources in which the the Flag of Northern Ireland is refered to as "nothing". I've seen plenty that refer to the Ulster banner as the Northern Ireland flag, probably because that is by far its more common name. And we are the business of common names, here. Miles Creagh (talk) 13:09, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict)As stated this is not an article on the Ulster Banner it is about the Flag of Northern Ireland, due to ambiguity in the name of the Ulster Banner it causes confusion, is there any editor here who doesn't agree that the flag of NI is the Union Flag? As it stands now it's basically a duplicate of the UB article an an reader would assume that the UB is the flag of NI this needs to be corrected, what is the sense of an encyclopedic article which confuses the reader. Mo ainm~Talk 13:11, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

I've already indicated that I'd be open to a discussion about merging content from the Ulster Banner article into one article called Flag of Northern Ireland, once we are done with this RfC. The Union flag is the flag of the United KIngdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, as I'm happy to see you acknowledge. Miles Creagh (talk) 13:16, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

How is it a duplicate? The UB article goes into more detail on heraldry and the origins of the design. This article has a large Union Jack in the top section (and discusses its legality), as well as mentioning the St. Patrick's Cross, neither of which are mentioned in the UB article. This article also goes into more detail about flag controversies and flag legislation in Northern Ireland, none of which is in UB article. Jonto (talk) 17:10, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

No it is not a good edit as it ignores that local government did not stop flying the flag in 1973. Jonto (talk) 17:10, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

Yep some have flown that flag bu that does not mean the flag represents Northern Ireland or is the national flag of Northern Ireland or that it is in some way official or even legal to fly. Have they received express consent from their local planning authorities? Dmcq (talk) 21:18, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

Didn't you just say above that you thought common and popular use was more important? And yet when someone points to an example of common use, you cavil whether it's "official" or has "consent from a local planning authority"(I had a a good wee chuckle at that last, I have to tell you!) And what do you think the local governments that fly the Northern Ireland flag intend it to represent, if not Northern Ireland? Miles Creagh (talk) 22:05, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

Well it certainly is evidence of common use and is noted in the current lead [19] which I've no objection to. I was pointing out that flying it didn't automatically make it officially sanctioned even for local government. Though I do wonder what's the point of regulations and are they anything except pieces of paper that can't yet be recycled when all those flags are stuck onto lampposts. And here's a whole bunch of flags intended to represent Northern Ireland Commons:Category:SVG_flags_-_proposed_of_Northern_Ireland, personally I quite like File:St. Patrick's Northern Ireland Flag Hexagon.svg. Dmcq (talk) 09:04, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

There is also common use of the tricolour within Northern Ireland. Like many things in Northern Ireland symbols are important. So in an article on the Flag of Northern Ireland it is valid to say that at one time the Ulster Banner occupied that role, but also to state that no longer does in any official capacity, but that some communities still use it. We get periodic vandalism inserting the banner on multiple articles, nearly always with one time IPs which tells you everything about this issue. Fusing the UB article with this could make a lot of sense with a note of the history of the UB allowing the the change in status and current use to be articulated.----Snowded ^TALK 12:56, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

There is common use of the tricolour, although not to the same extent, not by local govt, not to represent Northern Ireland internationally in sport (or at all) and it is not described in any sources I have seen as the Northern Ireland flag. Miles Creagh (talk) 13:41, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

A little hard to expect it to be described as the flag of Northern Ireland when it is being flow to claim that the six counties of Ulster are really a part of a new Irish state. Parts of the Unionist community assert the UB is the Northern Irish flag for similar sectarian reasons. Common use here requires an understanding of the context in which terms are used. Hence the clear need to establish that while it was once the flag it is no longer ----Snowded ^TALK 13:45, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

Well, it seems we agree that the tricolour is never flown to represent Northern Ireland, and is not described in sources as the flag of Northern Ireland. Unlike the Ulster banner, commonly known as the Northern Ireland flag, and referred to in sources as such. For instance, I have just been perusing "Flags and Arms Across The World", by the preeminent American vexilologist Whitney Smith and on page 226, under the heading "United Kingdom subdivisions" there is pictured the Ulster banner, captioned "Northern Ireland", directly under the St George's cross flag, captioned "England", and above the Saint Andrew's saltire, captioned "Scotland". Seems like a RS to me, and I will add it to the article in due course. Miles Creagh (talk) 14:00, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

Has a new edition come out since 1980? Dmcq (talk) 14:24, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

No, but you'll notice that 1980 is after 1973, when - according to some - Northern Ireland ceased to have a flag. Smith does tend to undermine that, while illustrating the continuing use of the Banner to represent Northern Ireland well after 1973. And to represent it in the same way England is represented by the St George's flag, Scotland by the St Andrews saltire etc Miles Creagh (talk) 14:35, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

And the Good Friday agreement was when? Using one 1980's source outside the context of NI politics is not sufficient. Add that it gets reverted. ----Snowded ^TALK 17:22, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

The GFA was in 1998, but I think you'll find it doesn't address the issue of flags. In fact, this was one of a couple of issues (the other being decommissioning) that could not be resolved in the negotiations at Castle buildings in the days before Easter 1998. Decommissioning was subsequently resolved, after much effort, flags - despite the best efforts of Richard Haass in the last couple of years - was not. So, we have a reliable source, authored by Whitney Smith the father of vexilology - the very inventor of the word in fact - that tends to indicate that in 1980 the Ulster banner represented Northern Ireland in the same manner the St George's cross flag represented England, the St Andrews saltire represented Scotland and the red dragon thingie represented Wales. That seems to me to at the minimum call in to question the tendentious notion that NI had no flag after 1973. And we have to work from verifiable sources here, bro, like it or not.Miles Creagh (talk) 18:36, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

Because you have a source from 1980 you want to establish that the prior contention is in 1973. The reality is that post the GFA and power sharing the UB ceased to be used in an official capacity. Post your one source which is also way before the full impact of devotion etc. etc. Even with that the fact that the Ulster Banner is still used in similar ways (sporting events) to other flags does not make it an official flag. To use your own examples the Dragon Coch flies above the Assembly in Wales and St Andrews Cross over Hollyrood - what flies over Stormont?----Snowded ^TALK 05:33, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Do you have a reference for your assertion that the status of UB changed post GFA? Eckerslike (talk) 11:28, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Eckerslike asks the obvious next question. I'd add this one: was the Dragon Coch regarded as the flag of Wales in 1980, before it was ever used by the Welsh Assembly, indeed before there was a Welsh assembly, as Smith seems to indicate? Miles Creagh (talk) 13:46, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

The official and unofficial status of flags within the British Isles has always been a difficult history to check. What is unambiguous now is that Y Ddraig Goch is official post devolution (another debate on another article about that years ago. What is equally unambiguous is that the UB is not official for Northern Ireland with only limited use in the context of some sporting teams (other than sectarian use that is). Using a 1980's source for any politically charged symbol in Northern Ireland displays a lack of understanding of history. A lot of things happened between 1980 and the present day as I suspect you know ----Snowded ^TALK 15:45, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

It is certainly true that the status of flags within what you call the"British Isles" is often difficult to check, as the origins of flags tend to be rooted in heraldry rather than legislation, and their status tends to evolve over time through common use rather than law. That's certainly true of the Flag of England for instance. However, the Good Friday Agreement is a pretty concise set of documents, and widely available on-line, so I would think you would be able to find a single quotation from it that supports your contention above that it addresses the use of the Ulster Banner. But of course you can't, because it doesn't. Also, your argument that it is somehow only post-devolution use by the Welsh Assembly that confers status as the Flag of Wales on the Dragon Goch, seems to me utterly ahistorical and demonstrably outside common tradition and usage. More importantly, for our purposes as an encyclopaedia that works from reliable sources, it is simply unsustainable when we have reliable sources that identify the Dragon thingie as the flag of Wales long before there was a Welsh Assembly, as we have reliable sources that identify the St Andrew's saltire as the Flag of Scotland long before there was a Scottish Parliament, and reliable sources that identify the Ulster banner as the Flag of Northern Ireland, long before there was a Northern Ireland Assembly, and long after there was a Parliament of Northern Ireland. Miles Creagh (talk) 17:52, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

But unlike those other ones not after there was a Northern Ireland Assembly which went and adopted a totally different emblem to represent itself. Dmcq (talk) 18:51, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

The emblem of a national parliament does not have match the emblem of the country as demonstrated by the Welsh Assembly (haven't heard anyone say the type of dragon on the flag should be changed), UK parliament and the US Congress. Eckerslike (talk) 19:31, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Yes, that's the emblem, or logo, of the Northern Ireland Assembly. Eckerslike provides a link to the logo of the Welsh Assembly above. Here's[20] the logo of the Scottish Parliament. What's the point you're making here, Dmcq? Miles Creagh (talk) 20:56, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

The Welsh one incorporates a dragon and the Scottish one incorporates the saltire. That's hardly totally different or indicates they don't ally themselves with the flags. My point is that whilst there was direct rule the status of the Ulster Banner could be considered as on ice. It is only really with the Assembly and the new flags regulations that one can consider it as no longer representing the country. Dmcq (talk) 21:20, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

And the United Kingdom one incorporates a portcullis. Does that mean that the Union flag is somehow not the flag of the UK? No, of course it doesn't. Logos are logos and flags are flags and all the logos are quite different from the flags. As to "new" flags regs: I assume you mean the Flags Regulations of 2000, which are not acts of the Northern Ireland Assembly, but rather an order by the UK government governing the flying of the UK flag in NI? If so, they make no reference to the Ulster banner whatsoever, last I checked. Although, if it is "only really with the Assembly and the new flags regulations that one can consider it as no longer representing the country" that seems to be a pretty big concession on your part that it continued to represent the country well into the 21st century, and a big change from your prior position that it ceased to do so in 1973. Miles Creagh (talk) 21:42, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

What prior position of mine? I think you're mixing me up with someone else. As I said I consider the UB as definitely the flag of Northern Ireland up till the parliaments dissolution. And whilst direct rule was in force I consider its status was on ice and I have no argument with people who say that it was the flag of Ireland then though other could reasonably say it was the Union Flag. And after the Good Friday Agreement and definitely after the Assembly started I consider it as no longer the flag of Northern Ireland either officially or by common consent. Dmcq (talk) 22:19, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

I may be confusing you with someone else, in which case I apologise. What you consider is what you consider, and good for you. But it seems we are presently lacking a reliable source that says that the status of the Ulster banner was addressed either in the GFA, or subsequently by the NI Assembly. Is there any specific act of the NI Assembly relative to the Ulster banner that you have in mind here? Is there any clause of the GFA you can cite that addresses the UB?Miles Creagh (talk) 22:41, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

In 1998 the Ulster Banner was considered so contentious by the parties of the Good Friday agreement they decided that it had to be abandoned in the Northern Ireland Assembly. I think one can consider common support as having been abandoned then. As far as official support, what official support if the other national flags are mentioned but not Northern Ireland? It is like inviting everyone in the street to a party except one house and it is not as though they would have forgotten about it. Dmcq (talk) 07:15, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

"In 1998 the Ulster Banner was considered so contentious by the parties of the Good Friday agreement they decided that it had to be abandoned in the Northern Ireland Assembly. I think one can consider common support as having been abandoned then." There's that bald assertion, again, which you simply haven't supplied sourcing for. It's not you what you think, it's what we can verify with reliable sources. Miles Creagh (talk) 13:20, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

OK I am pretty sure that the Flag Regulations (Northern Ireland) Act basically forbid flying anything other than the Union Jack, the EU flag, the Royal Standard or that of visiting heads of state. That was 2000 ----Snowded ^TALK 16:42, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Just checked and regulation 9 of the act does exclude any other flag from any government building. I think that is pretty conclusive ----Snowded ^TALK 16:44, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

No it is not. You have not read the UK legislation in full. Schedule Part I specifies that the phrase "government buildings" only refers to a mere seven specific central government buildings and not "any government building" as you have stated. There is already a paragraph at the top of this article covering that situation succinctly. Jonto (talk) 17:25, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Something like thirty buildings actually. Dmcq (talk) 17:40, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Please stop contradicting the source with another one of your bold statements. I gave a direct link to the legislation in question and it lists 7 buildings which it applies to. Jonto (talk) 17:45, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Court houses were added in 2002 [21] Dmcq (talk) 19:06, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

I've had a good look around and the best I can find about it on the web is [22] and the subsequent few meetings. Sounds nice and orderly there and does not actually mention the Ulster Banner I'm afraid.. Dmcq (talk) 17:40, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Right, so we still we have no sources that the NI assembly has ever addressed the question of the Banner. We do have sources from the 80s and 90s that describe it as the Northern Ireland flag, and we have to go by sources here. Miles Creagh (talk) 23:27, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

No we have a clear source which it excludes it being flown (it is not listed) from the UK legislature. Stop changing the authority requests to match your POV----Snowded ^TALK 03:31, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Of course the UK legislature can determine in its sole discretion when the UK flag may be flown from UK government buildings, and no one is suggesting that the Northern Ireland flag represents the UK government. I completely agree with Jonto's points above on this. But it seems to me you're the one changing the authority requests, here. Dmcq previously said that the NI Assembly had addressed the status of the banner, but offers a source that doesn't even mention it. You previously said that the Good Friday Agreement settled the status of the banner, but failed to provide the relevant language from the Agreement, I assume because you couldn't find it. And you couldn't find it because it's not in there, and it's not in there because there was explicitly no agreement on the issues of flags and emblems, and the the whole issue remains very much unfinished business of the peace process. Haass tried to move it forward in 2013, but that effort ultimately failed. See here[23]. We may at some point in the future have a resolution on the question, but until then we have to go strictly on what is verifiable by reliable sources, and it is simply not verifiable that the Assembly has acted on this question, because it hasn't, or that the GFA resolved it, when it doesn't even mention it. (But, hey, it seems we have a close on the RfC now, so that's positive!) Miles Creagh (talk) 05:05, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

closure

Seeing as the Rfc expired with no outsider closure or ruling. It appears as though the next step might be the WP:MEDCOM. GoodDay (talk) 21:48, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Well, it wouldn't be the first time[24][25]. What are the chances we can find an Arbitrator who is a big enough masochist to want to take this shite on? Miles Creagh (talk) 21:59, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

A summary doesn't have to be done immediately. I suppose a request could be put to get an admin to write a summary but the supports and opposes are equal as far as I can see and I don't think they'd bother sticking their necks out by making any decision except as you say to do some sort of mediation. Which probably wouldn't lead to anything useful either as it is voluntary. Anyway are people wanting to fight over what is there at the moment? perhaps proposing the change here first instead of edit warring over the text might be productive. I'm happy enough with what's there. Dmcq (talk) 22:19, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

I think what's there at the moment is generally fine, although there should probably be a brief description of the flag in an additional sentence at the start of the lede, in line with pretty much every other flag article. Miles Creagh (talk) 22:48, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Well I put in a request for an admin close. You never know they might suggest something good. I think writing a proposed change here first would still help. Dmcq (talk) 22:47, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

good luck with getting someone to do that! Concur with Dmcq (talk) 22:19, 15 May 2016 on position ----Snowded ^TALK 06:12, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Oppose Mo ainm's change. Nothing has changed since Dmcq's RfC. I note there wasn't a problem for the officially planned and staged Queen's 90th birthday celebrations yesterday when the Ulster Banner was flown by the military... Mabuska ^(talk) 20:22, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

I didn't spot that, in fact I didn't notice any flags except the Union Jack which was a bit surprising as I thought there would be a show of them sometime. When was it? Dmcq (talk) 21:06, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

I guess what 's meant here are the Irish Guards regimental colours which has a bit in the middle based on the centre of the Ulster Banner. I'm afraid I missed that. Dmcq (talk) 09:55, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

I've just had another look at the article and I can see nothing wrong with it as it stands. The facts are all laid out very clearly. Is it not time for alot of people to drop the stick and move on? Centuryofconfusion (talk) 11:43, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Not for the first time on this topic Dmcq your completely wrong. Straight after James Blunt's performance just over and hour and a half into the show five horses bolt out bearing flags in the following order: St. George's Cross, the Ulster Banner, St. Andrew's Saltire and the Welsh flag followed at the end by the Union Jack. In fact watch on later into the programme and you'll see quite a lot of flags representing the Commonwealth. I guess what's meant here is that the only people with an issue with the flag are Irish nationalists and republicans, which going the 2011 census and recent election results are on a decline in Northern Ireland electorally and identity wise. Mabuska ^(talk) 11:48, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Mabuska, That's right. All this trouble has been caused by a minority who have an issue with the flag. And this minority is in decline as is proven by recent election results. The article says that the flag was official until 1973 but is still used. What more does the article need to say without sounding as though the writer hates the flag. And only a minority hate it. Centuryofconfusion (talk) 11:59, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Would you stop that. Anyway I agree with Mabuska that use of the Ulster Banner at the Queen's 90 Birthday Celebration is good evidence of the Northern Ireland flag still being current and official. What was required was evidence like that when it was pointedly left out of other stuff. IF somebody can find a picture of that it would help with the article. Dmcq (talk) 12:13, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

As I've posted before, the thing about the United Kingdom is that, unlike other countries, it doesn't really do "officialdom" where every little thing like flags are defined in law, rather many things are simply done by custom, as there is no formal written UK constitution. Therefore, in UK contexts the official/unofficial arguments are a bit of a waste of time. The Union Jack article even states "The terms Union Jack and Union Flag are both historically correct for describing the de facto national flag of the United Kingdom"!! Jonto (talk) 18:21, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

It may not be as clear as other places and sometimes is fuzzy but that does not mean that it isn't pretty clear in most instances. And that display at the Queen's celebration most definitely does show official support. Dmcq (talk) 00:53, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Here you go. [26] It's at around 59:30 in the video. A splendid, rousing display of the flags of the four Countries of the UK and the Union flag.Miles Creagh (talk) 14:20, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Well, seeing is believing & they were using the Ulster Banner there. GoodDay (talk) 14:51, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Well they'll really have to deal with the flags issue properly now. I think dread about covers my feelings about the business but I don't think there's any avoiding now. Dmcq (talk) 17:14, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Yes, we will have to address the issue properly on Wikipedia now, but there's no reason for dread, as long as we remain calm, check our POV at the door (as far as possible) and go where the reliable sources lead. In that spirit, I have begun a discussion here [27] that may be of interest to editors who have participated here. Miles Creagh (talk) 17:29, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

I always strive for NPOV on Wikipedia whatever the issue. No I meant in the real world. I think the Assembly has been around long enough now to cope with the flags issue but one just never knows what the consequences of something like this will be. Dmcq (talk) 00:38, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

I don't see what has changed in the real world or what needs to "be addressed". I'm pretty sure I have seen the Northern Ireland flag at previous royal events over the past few decades, it's just that we happen to have a video of the most recent one to convince those unaware. Jonto (talk) 15:58, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

This probably tips the scales toward implementing the Ulster Banner into the infobox at Northern Ireland, as well. GoodDay (talk) 18:30, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Yup, I reckon so. But we should probably discuss over there too. Miles Creagh (talk) 20:21, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

No it doesn't. An editor making an observation (and an interpretation) of a video) is original research. You need to find a source post 2000 (the flags regulation order) that says it is now official. Do that and there will be no objections. ----Snowded ^TALK 04:38, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Common usage applies does it not Snowded? That's how the Derry/Londonderry issue was largely determined. Also when was the St. George's flag ever made official for England? It never has been yet it is in England's infobox. Oh wait that's right, it was the Irish who firstly regarded it to be the national flag of England, but that doesn't make it official. Mabuska ^(talk) 10:50, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

If you have a third party citation which establishes common use I'm cool, but I haven't seen it yet just one video and an interpretation of that video as against clear exclusion of the use by two orders in Parliament. You can't compare the UB with the St Georges' Cross as that has never been controversial in its application to England, the Ulster Banner has been user in a sectarian way. So come up with a citation post 2000 ..... ----Snowded ^TALK 10:56, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Scan of quoted pages Znamierowski, Alfred (2003). Illustrated Book of Flags: The Complete Encyclopedia of International Flags, Banners, Standards and Ensigns. London: Southwater / Anness Publishing Ltd. pp. 148–149. ISBN 978-1842158814. "Northern Ireland... National Flag... Adopted 29 May 1953. Proportions 2:3... The banner of arms of Northern Ireland was granted by King George V on 2 August 1924. The star representing the six counties is ensigned with the royal crown and charged with the red hand of Ulster."

As for St. George's Cross "never being controversial": St. George's Flag is a racist symbol says a quarter of the English

Cauleyflower (talk) 11:34, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Whilst I agree with all that nevertheless I can't see how one can consider that display as anything other than as an official use to represent Northern Ireland and as publishing without something saying otherwise. Dmcq (talk) 11:28, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

I concur with Snowded. Ulster loyalism has fans at many levels of the British establishment, but the flag's exclusion by Westminster couldn't be clearer. Gob Lofa (talk) 11:58, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

We work from reliable sources here, Gob Lofa, not conspiracy theories about the British establishment. Miles Creagh (talk) 14:10, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

I guess a question will be raised at Westminster about it pretty soon but really what else can they say about it? Dmcq (talk) 15:02, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

The flag's clearly visible in the video. As conspiracy theories go Miles, yours seem pretty public. Gob Lofa (talk) 15:40, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Yes, the flag is very clear in the video. The conspiracy theory is clear nowhere, except perhaps in your head. Miles Creagh (talk) 15:45, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Good that you can see its clarity makes it an excellent source for demonstrating the flags of the four constituent countries of the United Kingdom! Jonto (talk) 15:58, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Snowded is talking nonsense again. Video is a perfectly acceptable source for Wikipedia. There doesn't need to be any "original research" other than saying it is displayed at formal events of the sovereign of the United Kingdom. There is nothing in UK legislation which supports the censorship of the Northern Ireland flag as done on Wikipedia. As for the England flag, there are some claiming it to be "sectarian" too but that doesn't mean we should censor it.Jonto (talk) 15:58, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Not much you contend is clear Miles, least of all in my head. Jonto, its clarity make it an excellent source for demonstrating that the flag is favoured by some elements of the British establishment (as the legislation demonstrates it is not favoured by other elements of the same establishment), a subject of great interest which ought to be elaborated upon in this article. Gob Lofa (talk) 16:09, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Seems like you've got a whole lot of synthesis going on there, Gob! Miles Creagh (talk) 16:44, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Jonto is correct in stating that videos are viable as evidence on Wikipedia. Having been in a previous debate on videos as evidence (as the objector) on a totally unrelated topic, I was surprised to learn that they are valid and can be used if put in proper context. So in regards to Jonto's example: other than saying it is displayed at formal events of the sovereign of the United Kingdom, there is nothing wrong or against Wikipedia or OR at all, though maybe a slight rewording.

@Snowded - the use of the flag in various sporting fields where it is recognised by bodies such as UEFA, FIFA, PGA etc., at the monarch's 90th birthday gala, by hundreds of Protestant bands and associated fraternities and by many communities across NI where it is fastened to a lamppost of flag pole... obvious common usage. The flag is that sectarian that Catholic Rory McIlroy carries it with pride, and no Catholic NI national football player has yet walked off the pitch in disgust at its usage by the NI national team. Only ones who find it sectarian are always the embittered amongst nationalists/republicans. We can also say that the Irish Tricolour is the flag of sectarianism and terrorism. Mabuska ^(talk) 19:44, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

"Only ones who find it sectarian are always the embittered amongst nationalists/republicans"? Not worth counting such people? I'm surprised you descend to that sort of stuff. Dmcq (talk) 20:34, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Dmcq, we can't permit an encyclopaedia to be distorted by the embittered, so Mabuska's point was accurate. He didn't descend to any depths. No need for the phony outrage. Time to drop the stick.Centuryofconfusion (talk) 23:54, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Just because a person is embitterened does not mean they stop being human with rights. Calling people names so one can discount them is a very bad thing to do. Nobody is an untermenschen. Dmcq (talk) 00:07, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Here's[28] (another) picture of Rory McIlroy with the Northern Ireland flag. He seems happy and relaxed, a nice counterpoint to this talk of bitterness amd sectarianism. Miles Creagh (talk) 01:00, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

The event on Video is not the Queen's official birthday which is in June...not sure why she needs two birthdays in one year; the military uniforms were not official ceremonial but historic; and the author of your field book himself provides the official most reliable source that the flag has officially disappeared. Bosley John Bosley (talk) 20:14, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

As this is word-for-word what you have put to me in the discussion here [29] I have replied there. Miles Creagh (talk) 21:13, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

OK so we have Miles and Jonto variously conducting original research and synthesis based on their interpretation of a historical parent they have seen on a video compared with a specific government source which excludes the official use of all bar a limited number of names flags in specific contexts plus the Britannica reference which Miles doesn't like. We then add a few personal attacks one personal from Jonto and then a generic swipe from Mabuska. No one is (as far as I can see) disputing its use at some sporting events and that is covered in the article. No one has produced a source which would allow us to make it the emblem of the country/province as a whole. ----Snowded ^TALK 04:16, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Actually, I like the Britannica source just fine, as it makes clear that Whitney Smith had all the relevant information about the abolition of the Parliament of Northern Ireland in 1972/3 when he included in his 1980 book the Ulster banner to represent Northern Ireland in the same way the St George's cross represented England, the St Andrew's saltire represented Scotland, and the Dragon Goch represented Wales. None of the four flags then in use by any assemblies, yet all representing their respective countries nonetheless! Miles Creagh (talk) 04:41, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Source for post 2000 use? Still waiting ----Snowded ^TALK 04:49, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Source for the 2000 Flag regs having anything whatsoever to do with the Northern Ireland flag? Even some context from the press at the time would be helpful, as we already know the plain text of the Regs makes no reference to it, and we don't do OR or synthesis here.Miles Creagh (talk) 04:56, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

You are stretching your credibility now Miles, but regardless of that regulation, if you are correct then there must be some reference you can find in the last 15 years plus ----Snowded ^TALK 05:20, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Well, if you look above and at the discussion over at Talk:Countries of the United Kingdom you'll see I've provided refs from the 1980s, the 1990s and the 2010s. You have yet to provide a single ref to support your contention that the 2000 regulations addressed the Northern Ireland flag, because the refs just aren't out there for that. You've probably discovered that by now, which may be why you are engaging in circumlocutions such as "regardless of that regulation". Regardless of that regulation you've hung your whole case on, you mean? Miles Creagh (talk) 05:41, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

I looked at that earlier and you haven't provided a reference, just a couple of links with some more interpretation on your part. There was no circumlocution, I was simply making the point that sometime in the last 15+ years you should be able to find a reference - the use of 'regardless' was simply an attempt to get you to see that even if the regulation was not evidence (which it is) you can't rely on one ancient reference that precedes many of the events in Northern Ireland. Either way there is no consensus here or at Talk:Countries of the United Kingdom which would allow you to disrupt the long standing position on many articles that the UB is not used ----Snowded ^TALK 06:25, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Snowded, Drop the stick. You are obviously not here to build an encyclopaedia. Your user page gives away your agenda. Centuryofconfusion (talk) 10:39, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Read WP:AGF and WP:NPA, if you carry on like this then its open for your conduct to become an issue in its own right ----Snowded ^TALK 21:09, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Snowded, the links are to books, articles and a video which are all clearly reliable sources and which have been added as references to this article. They will be added to Countries of the United Kingdom in due course, as discussed over there. The RfC here has closed with a finding of "no consensus" around "no flag" , which is probably why you are now talking in terms of a "long standing position", where you had previously claimed a consensus. Progress of sorts, I suppose! Miles Creagh (talk) 13:13, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

The non-admin close said that there was no consensus to include a specific statement that there was no flag, suggesting that if it was to be proposed again it might be qualified with "as of 2016". You can't say that means that there was a consensus that it is an official flag which you seem to be implying. As to the sources, the ones added do not establish official status. ----Snowded ^TALK 21:09, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Let's focus on a point of agreement: there is no consensus to include a specific statement that there is no flag. That would be simply inaccurate. Miles Creagh (talk) 21:26, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Dmcq: Just because a person is embitterened does not mean they stop being human with rights. Calling people names so one can discount them is a very bad thing to do. Nobody is an untermenschen. Dmcq (talk) 00:07, 19 May 2016 (UTC) - what in the utter fuck are you on about. Who said anything about human rights or discounting them? I was simply stating the plain and simple irrefutable fact that those amongst the population who claim the flag is sectarian are the embittered amongst nationalists and republicans. The usage of the word amongst denotes I mean those amongst that community, not the entire community. Then again those same embittered can;t even call Northern Ireland it's de facto and de jure name. Mabuska ^(talk) 13:38, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

You are making out that the opinions of those that see the flag as sectarian don't matter and so the flag isn't sectarian because those who see it as such are embittered nationalists and republicans. What makes you think the proportion of such people is any less than those amongst the Unionist community who for various reasons feel they absolutely must fly the flag? The flag is the symbol of a hated government/staunch upright government which had them on the bottom/top - why should either side be oblivious to that? Yes there are lots of people who don't care about it or see it as a flag to represent the country and nothing else - but that doesn't mean the other people do not have the right to have their point of view taken into consideration as well. That is why there is a flags issue and why it is so thorny. Name calling people to make out they don't matter is wrong. Dmcq (talk) 14:46, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Dmcq, the only people who hated the government that you are referring to are that same embittered element who hate the flag. A large majority liked that government and many more on top were indifferent to it. It was about as benign and ineffectual a subordinate government as you will ever find anywhere. I think that you have been reading far too much republican propaganda. Centuryofconfusion (talk) 20:34, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Why oh why did things ever have to change? Gob Lofa (talk) 11:16, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

A history lesson is a bit of a side track. But since it's relevant to the flag issue, I'll remind you that the the Northern Ireland government was brought down in 1972 by the unionists themselves from within, in protest against London taking control of security. Republican revisionists like to maintain the narrative that it was taken away because it was biased, but Edward Heath, the then Prime Minister rejected the accusation that it was biased. Check the newspapers of the period and you won't find a shred of evidence that it was taken away because it was biased. The real issue behind this ongoing dispute is simply that an embittered minority are opposed to anything that marks Northern Ireland out as being separate from the Irish Republic. Centuryofconfusion (talk) 14:27, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

You really believe in the Irish Republic? You are a die-hard. Gob Lofa (talk) 11:37, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I have no idea what you are on about. Centuryofconfusion (talk) 13:36, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

In the perfect world Dmcq deluded sectarian bigots who don't have a grasp on the real world or actual history and can't see past the bias that blinds them should have their opinions ignored. Then again NI is still stuck with the DUP and SF in charge. Mabuska ^(talk)

I do try to not feed the trolls. Dmcq (talk) 18:51, 23 May 2016 (UTC)