Talk:Flag of Indianapolis

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Heraldry and vexillology

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Non-Indianapolis flags[edit]

Hello Koavf, I'm not sure what's difficult here. This article is about the flag of Indianapolis. You have repeatedly reinserted an image which is not and has never been the flag of Indianapolis, and so it is not relevant to this article. If that flag is notable, you could write an article about it and display it there, but it certainly doesn't belong here. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 00:44, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's okay to show derivative works. E.g. Mona Lisa. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 00:49, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's not a "derivative work", nor a parody or anything like that. It's an unofficial design by a private group that the city never adopted. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 00:50, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It 100% is: they did not accidentally end up with a chevron that reproduces the flag in black and white. It is a new work based on an older work. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 00:52, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It is still not the Indianapolis flag, and so I would still assert it is not appropriate here. Otherwise, we'd be stuck putting in whatever unofficial designs someone want to throw at us; if we let one person or group do it, there's little grounds to say no to someone else. The images here should be of the actual current and historical flags, not unofficial versions. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 00:54, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source for a policy or guideline that says that? Any proof that anyone else thinks that or that there was any harm in having it here for several months? Did you read the image caption? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 00:57, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For a policy or guideline that says articles shouldn't include irrelevant information? I don't think we need a policy to say that; it's the same reason I wouldn't include an image of a Commodore 64 in the Apple IIe article. I would think that's common-sense enough that we don't need a policy to spell that out. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 00:58, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please answer my questions. See also Mona Lisa. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 01:03, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am not a trained monkey, and I did answer the questions I cared to. Mona Lisa is not relevant. As it seems we're at something of an impasse here, I suppose I will ask for a third opinion. And yes, several other editors at WikiProject Cities raised concerns over these unofficial flags, you can check the talk page there. That's how I learned of the problem. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 01:25, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't recall alleging that you are a non-human. It would be nice if you would stop with these assumptions that you slide into ostensibly neutral statements. If Mona Lisa isn't relevant, then why are any other city flag articles relevant? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 01:29, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Because in Mona Lisa, the images included are of things which are in and of themselves notable derivatives. Hence why I said if this flag is notable, you could write an article about it. But it's not (certainly at least not to any of my ability to find), and I can't even find any secondary sources that note it as in any way significant. If there were any sources that stated that Indianapolis had taken ideas from that design for a future flag, or the like, then it might bear mentioning. But barring that, we're giving undue weight to something that has nothing more to do with the flag of Indianapolis than that some private group put together something they said represented Indianapolis. Anyone can do that. I could do that; you could do that. Unless there's some referencing to say that their effort was somehow more significant than you or I doing it, it doesn't belong here. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 01:33, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You initially suggested that if this derivative is notable, then I could make an article about it. As you can see, we have no article about Le rire (The Laugh) by Eugène Bataille, or Sapeck (1883) and yet, it's included at that page as an illustrative example of a derivative work. We are not required to have independent articles about all derivative works to show that a flag is used in real life. I've included media in this article to show not only an abstract representation of the flag, but also actual uses of it. This is one such use. This private group is one specifically related to flags, so the idea that your or I could make some random design is spurious. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 01:39, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Are you aware of any reliable and independent sources that comment on this particular derivative as of some significance? I'm not able to find any, but maybe you know of some I'm missing. If there aren't any, then my point stands—even if it didn't have enough sourcing to be independently notable, if no third-party reliable sources credit it with any significance at all, it is no different than you or me doing the same. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 01:45, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No and I reject that assertion. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 01:48, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The NAVA flag does not belong here. It is an organization with no direct connection to the city; all sorts of organizations may make flags or logos or other designs that may incorporate elements of the city's actual flag, but that is no basis to include in the article, especially without third-party sources indicating why this organization's design is significant outside of the context of their own meeting. Just because NAVA focuses on flags has little relevance. Reywas92^Talk 02:12, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. The flag is unofficial & NN, thus making it UNDUE. (t · c) buidhe 05:47, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]