Talk:Fiador (tack)

A Disagreement

The fiador knot does not typically attach a fiador to a bosal. The fiador knot ends up with two loops on the front end, and a loop and two tails on the back. The double loop runs forward, where a bottle sling is formed. This is the knot which attaches the fiador to the bosal. The double tails from the backside of the knot pass over the poll, where they are passed through the remaining loop in a sheet bend near the left cheek of the horse. (See "traditional vaquero fiador" image at[1])

I have seen the fiador knot used this way on internet how-to-tie-it pages. Those are not adequate sources, of course. --Una Smith (talk) 06:32, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I have never seen the term fiador used to describe the lower connecting strap on a halter. This u-shaped vs. y-shaped thing is new to me. I say a fiador is a type of throatlatch. Anywhere I have seen parts of the halter described the lower connecting strap has never been called a fiador. Extrapolation of what an Argentinian website calls a fiador to a standard halter seems like a stretch. Rope halters often use the fiador knot, but that does not mean that they have a fiador. [2] I would be in favor of describing the term primarily as it is used in English language-speaking countries on the English language Wikipedia. Other uses are obviously appropriate if referenced.

Standard Argentine halters have a part that looks like a fiador and is called a fiador. --Una Smith (talk) 06:32, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I have never seen the word fiador (or the word frentera for that matter) used to describe Australian gear. Please reference it or take it out.

Where have you seen reference to a fiador used on a bridle in the US? (Or anywhere?) A bridle is a headstall and bit. A fiador is used with a hackamore, not with a bit. Please reference it or take it out.

As we are always reminded below, encyclopedic content must be verifiable. Most of this article is completely different from what I have ever read or seen about a fiador, except on Wiktionary (where you wrote the entry).

Look for Hackamore Reinsman by Ed Connell or These were the Vaqueros by Arnold Rojas for the definitive word on the fiador.--Getwood (talk) 07:05, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

In case there is confusion, I wasn't the one who created those problems, but Una keeps reverting large parts of all my edits. And I have no argument with your statements, and I have been insisting that the material is original research, but Una insists it's correct and I am getting sick and tired of fighting with her. But I will make changes per a rough 2-1 consensus on these points. Montanabw^(talk) 16:00, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

2-1 consensus is an oxymoron. --Una Smith (talk) 06:28, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Not necessarily, read WP:CON. Dreadstar † 15:29, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I am just back from vacation, so may not be completely up to speed here..... upon initial reading, I would add this: keep in mind "fiador" and "fiador knot" are two different things. I am still not clear on why this article is necessary.... is it describing the knot? Or the part of the hackamore? Both of which already have their own article page, yes? --AeronM (talk) 00:44, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Welcome back AeronM. I would be satisfied with an expanded section under hackamore with the heading fiador. This accessory is already described there somewhat. A photo could be included for clarification. From what I understand, the fiador knot is named for its original use on the fiador. I agree that the distinction between f. and f. knot should be reinforced. The fiador knot is definitely much more commonly seen these days on rope halters... Maintaining the fiador knot page and rolling this one into hackamore would work for me. Una may disagree, as she feels that "fiador" has a bigger definition that is being pushed aside in favor of a more narrow usage of the term by the Californio crowd. She created this page, and feels strongly that the Argentinian definition should be included in order to maintain a worldwide view. Before any attempt is made to retire this page, she should have her say. She and I haven't been in agreement on some of these things, but I respect her and hope that a true consensus can be reached.--Getwood (talk) 02:21, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm with Getwood on the general content issues. But on the other hand, the description of fiadors got so long in the hackamore article that I am OK with the break out here. Montanabw^(talk) 23:59, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

It's too bad they couldn't have come up with a seperate name for the knot. Would have saved us all this trouble! So I guess my vote would be for a section on the Rope Halters page (oops, is there one?) on the fiador knot, and a section on the Hackamore page for the fiador..... but I am no fiador expert, so maybe it warrants it's own page... I don't know. Oh wait, now that it's all coming back to me... I forgot that the south american fiador thingy is on the front of the face and is it's own unique gizmo.... hmmm, ok, in that case, I think I do vote for a fiador page. Then we can mention all the types of fiadors, even if it duplicates somewhat on the other pages. --AeronM (talk) 01:16, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

PS pay no mind to my edit summary, which my computer put in there on it's own when all I typed was "Adding." Sorry, I will try to control my computer better form now on. --AeronM (talk) 01:21, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Someone keeps rewriting the article to narrow the description of fiador. Take a look at some of the external links I provide below and you'll see the thing called a fiador throughout the Spanish-speaking world has a complicated history and most of that history has nothing to do with "hackamore reinsmen". --Una Smith (talk) 02:41, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Some external links

Fiador on a bridle, in the minimal neck collar style: here and here. Fiador on a bridle, in the "complete" style: here. This looks like just a halter worn over a bridle, but the tradition is to wear both, the fiador on top. Here, the fiador has its own noseband supported by a frentera; in Argentina this variant is often called a bozal. Note in both styles the fiador has its own browband and is worn over the bridle. In a third style, the fiador is a neck collar tied to the bitted bridle by its browband here. In yet a fourth style, seen in Mexico here and in the Californios tradition, the fiador is a neck collar tied to the bosal of a jaquima / hackamore. --Una Smith (talk) 02:38, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Those were cool photos.... we need to get some photos in this article... I think it would help alleviate some confusion.... --AeronM (talk) 02:52, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

What matters here is making it really clear what designs are used in South America and what are used in North America. This "someone" isn't narrowing down the article, this "someone" is trying to avoid confusing readers. Fiador as used in English doesn't necessarily encompass everything the word encompasses in Spanish=speaking countries. Here, the neck rope on a bosalito would not be called a fiador, nor is the connecting strap on a halter called a fiador. Similarly, to compare, in the USA we don't call a halter a "headcollar." As long as regional differences are clear and we don't confuse people, that is what matters here. At least to me, Montanabw^(talk) 04:15, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with AeronM that photos would be great for explaining the fiador. To me there are two usages of the term: there is the Argentinian gaucho one, and the vaquero/Californio style. To be honest, I'm still having trouble with "throughout the Spanish-speaking world." The first images are all gaucho style. Very cool stuff, and I certainly agree that what they are calling a fiador is not what is seen elsewhere. Including in Mexico, where the referenced image is of a jaquima used with a fiador, essentially identical to that used in the US. The contention that the Argentinian style is a more important one than the vaquero style is a pointless argument. The article is currently muddy because of this attempt to universalize the description. In my mind, the gaucho style should be secondary in an English language article, as the cowboy style one should be secondary on the Spanish language site. Sure, both can be on both. But, right now that is leading to confusion.--Getwood (talk) 22:25, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

You said it better than I could. We have one word, describing essentally two different things. Montanabw^(talk) 21:08, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like an apt moment for a split + dab. Antelan^talk 06:11, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I would be perfectly happy if this article confined itself to the North American fiador found on the bosal style hackamore. What's going on here, in my humble opinion, is an attempt to try and universalize things that really cannot be universalized. They are related, and may have a common source somewhere in antiquity, but they are not identical. I think that's the crux of the debate. Antelan, if you have further suggestions as to how this could be done, please feel free to help us out. Montanabw^(talk) 06:23, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, sorry, I think I used too much Wikislang there. My idea is this: if, indeed, the idea cannot be universalized, then we're in a situation where there is one word describing two essentially different things. If that's the case, there can be a fiador disambiguation page, pointing to the two separate articles. If that makes sense, what do you think? Antelan^talk 06:33, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Why stop at two? There are two (or more?) styles of fiador in South America. The article mentions one, not two, because I haven't gotten around to writing about the second one. For that matter, Bridles are all related but (quoting Montanabw above) "they are not identical", there are many different styles; by this reasoning, we need a separate page for each style, eh? After we split Fiador (tack), we can split Hackamore; that article needs to be split far more than this one does. --Una Smith (talk) 06:54, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

From where I'm sitting, that seems to be a pretty sarcastic response to my honest attempt at a helpful response to your question about this article that you posted elsewhere. Please tell me I'm just not getting the humor. Antelan^talk 07:18, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Antelan, I am sorry you thought my reply was sarcastic; it was a sincere question. From my POV, there is no notable difference between the fiador that Montanabw knows and the things called fiador that are used in other parts of the world. --Una Smith (talk) 04:49, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Antelan, there is no humor, sad to say. This is a longstanding problem that is causing edit disputes across several articles, particularly on horse headgear, primarily with Una on one side and me on the other, though others have weighed in from time to time. See the talk pages of talk:chaps, talk:hackamore, talk:bitless bridle and talk:frentera. There is another one simmering on a low boil at talk:canter. You may also want to consult with admins such as Rlevse and Dreadstar, who have tried (in vain) to help in the past. I have given up on understanding Una's motivations, but for myself, I have deep concerns that she has an insufficient understanding of mainstream viewpoints on horse equipment in the English-speaking world and from what I can tell seems to be trying to somehow insert a theory about Spanish equipment designs that is, at best, original research, and at worst is a fringe theory. We have gone to mediation over the pronunciation of "chaps," we both have at times gotten pretty heated in our discussions with one another, and I won't even bother to discuss behavior issues because we both seem to be equally convinced that the other is the one who is mostly in the wrong. All I want to do at this point is have neutral people babysit these articles where we are both editing because it keeps things from getting personal and we both behave better with adult supervision. (sigh). We are capable of reaching consensus, but at a ridiculous amount of time and effort over things that are relatively obscure. Speaking only for myself, this conflict has been running almost two months now, and it is making my wikipedia experience quite miserable. Montanabw^(talk) 22:43, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

For the record, I took Chaps to mediation and I am glad I did, because it was constructive. That article should have undergone mediation years ago. --Una Smith (talk) 04:44, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Please just let it go, it appears that Antelan is offline for a month, and anyway, that issue is long settled. There is no need for you to get nasty about it all over again. Montanabw^(talk) 06:02, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Reverts

Folks, if you don't like a contribution to this article, instead of summarily deleting it (that's rude), discuss it here. Thanks. --Una Smith (talk) 04:22, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Neck collars and not fiadors

Let's not start this thing of naming all sorts of equipment things that it is not, OK? A neck collar is a neck collar, a fiador is a fiador, they are two different things. (and "neck collar" is Australian usage, to boot) Or at least cite a source that says a neck collar is somewhere, someplace IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE (because this is English wikipedia) called a fiador. Putting in unorthodox interpretations will only confuse readers looking for factual information. Montanabw^(talk) 04:30, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

I consider your edit to be so inaccurate that summary deletion was appropriate. (Just because another language uses a particular word to describe something that is not called by that word in English does not mean it's the proper English term. It would be OK to explain that the word in other languages means something different). However, to avoid a 3RR problem I will fact tag it for now. Montanabw^(talk) 05:53, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Parking removed material

Removed some material from the article that has nothing to do with fiadors, however, has good sources for the actual content, so parking it here in case it can be placed in some other article later. Per short article in Sept, 2008 Western Horseman, a "getdown rope" is clearly not a fiador, and has a very different use and purpose. (Topic worth further research) Other types of neck ropes and neck collars are also not fiadors, though probably worth their own article. Montanabw^(talk) 03:36, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

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A piece of equipment sometimes called a neck rope or get down rope, consists of a long rope with one end tied in a fixed loop (usually with a bowline knot) around the horse's neck and the other end passed through the bridle throatlatch or noseband, or both, if present. This style is used infrequently in the continental United States and Canada outside of limited use in the Californio spade bit tradition, but is very common in Hawaii. In paniolo (Hawaiian cowboy) culture, describes the neck rope as a paniolo derivation from the mecate and fiador used in North America but provides a traditional Hawaiian name (kaula ‘ā‘ī) only for the neck rope. Link to Bergin book on Google books

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The North American Trail Ride Conference permits stallions to compete in events it sanctions but requires that stallions be tied double, using both a halter and a neck rope, when not under the handler's direct control.

Parking again

This material is Original research as far as this equipment being a "fiador," So once again, I am parking it on the talk page, verbatim, until this dispute is resolved. Montanabw^(talk) 01:50, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

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Australian stock horse in a traditional Barcoo bridle and halter; the reins are tied around the horse's neck

This neck collar is very similar in form and function to a piece of equipment sometimes called a neck rope or get down rope. This consists of a long rope with one end tied in a fixed loop (usually with a bowline knot) around the horse's neck and the other end passed through the bridle throatlatch or noseband, or both, if present. This style is used infrequently in the continental United States and Canada outside of limited use in the Californio spade bit tradition, but is very common in Hawaii, in the paniolo (Hawaiian cowboy) tradition. Billy Bergin describes the neck rope as a paniolo derivation from the mecate and fiador used in North America, but provides a traditional (old) Hawaiian name (kaula ‘ā‘ī) for the neck rope. Many photographs illustrating his book show horses under saddle wearing a bridle and a neck rope, the bight of the rope tucked into the rider's belt. This closely resembles the current custom in western North America, by trail riders, of using a halter and lead rope under the bridle.

Stallion secured with a halter and "tie up collar" (Australia)

The traditional fiador resembles another piece of equipment in current use, a horse collar or neck rope used to secure stallions. The North American Trail Ride Conference permits stallions to compete in events it sanctions but requires that stallions be tied double, using both a halter and a neck rope, when not under the handler's direct control.

References

One more time

Please do not keep adding Australian neck collars to the fiador article, these are NOT a "fiador." A fiador is a throatlatch, it stabilizes headgear on a horse, it is not used for tying a horse. While it is within the scope of the article to mention that the term may be used differently in other languages, describing different forms of tack, but this is not how it is used in the English language. I'll wait until you are done with your edit and remove your working tag, but if we need to take this up to a third party opinion or something, we need to do so because we have gone around and around on this issue enough. Montanabw^(talk) 01:33, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Neck collar versus throatlatch

OK, Una, from the last set of edits, I think we are approaching an understanding of what the difference of opinion is on this article. The question is if a "fiador" is the throalatch-like appendage to steady a hackamore, or if it is a "neck collar" used for a number of other purposes, but not to stabilize headgear on the horse's head. Please tell me if I am correct. We need to resolve this issue for the good of the article. What are your sources for this "neck collar" interpretation?

Also, as I do not speak Spanish, it appears that the word "fiador" as used in Latin America refers to something completely different, possibly the above-mentioned neck collar, but I see no source, and no images other than of Australian equipment, all of which has yet different names (neck collar, Bardoo bridle, etc...). I am interesting in seeing if there are common historical origins to this equipment, but just as the [[bosal] and the longeing caveson have common origins in the ancient Persian hakma (according to Bennett), they aren't the same thing today. Similarly, I think it's interesting to trace the origins of this other equipment, but it is also important that we don't lump apples and oranges together into too similar a category beyond "fruit."

Anyway, that's just my thoughts. I also suggest that any proposed changes go here on talk first, as was recommended by a neutral third party. Montanabw^(talk) 23:50, 16 October 2008 (UTC)