Talk:Fawn M. Brodie

Parkwell editing

I disagree with Parkwells' attempt to make the article more "encyclopedic" by degrading the prose style. In any case, with so many truly needy articles out there, why start here?--John Foxe (talk) 10:36, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

WP discourages OPED use of "Nevertheless", "not surprisingly", and similar terms. It encourages use of active voice.Parkwells (talk) 02:46, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Brodie and DNA

re: DNA solves a Joseph Smith mystery
Her book, and the news article confirms, says that there is a Hancock family tradition.Here are some quotes from the book (thanks to commentator John Corrill for the reference) " There is a tradition among some of the descendants of Levi Hancock that Mrs. Hancock was sealed to Joseph Smith in Nauvoo and that one of her sons may have been his child. Since there seems to be no printed or manuscript evidence to support this story, however, it must be taken with CONSIDERABLE RESERVE. " (pg 464)

So we see that Brodie was actually not convinced of the Hancock family tradition and now, due to this article, we know that she was correct in her analysis.

Also, contrary to what the article says, Brodie did not say that Moroni Pratt was the son of Joseph Smith. What she did say was (emphasis mine):" [Mary Ann Frost's] son, Moroni...may be added to the list of boys who MIGHT POSSIBLY have been the sons of Joseph Smith" (pg 484) So, it appears she was not comfortable making a proclamation one way or the other regarding Moroni's paternity.

If this is an important news article then it is important to say what the book said. BTW, the DNA testing is using the "Y" chromosome, which is preserved down the male lineage. --Javaweb (talk) 17:24, 11 July 2011 (UTC)Javaweb

I agree and have removed the article reference. Brodie was understandably tentative about the possible descendants of Smith's polygamy.--John Foxe (talk) 17:39, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

There have been several attempts to add the following statement to the article:

"Claims made in the book regarding Joseph Smith's posterity remain controversial and disputed to this day. DNA evidence has now refuted the author's claim that Moroni Pratt was in fact a descendant of Joseph Smith, and not of Parley Pratt. DNA evidence has also refuted several other claims concerning Joseph Smith's posterity, including Oliver Buell, Zebulon Jacobs, Orrison Smith, and Mosiah Hancock."

But Brodie does not claim that Moroni Pratt was Joseph's son; she is, in fact, very cautious and says only that Moroni Pratt "might also be added to this list" of possible children. Giving a whole paragraph to this sort of apologetics is WP:UNDUE.--John Foxe (talk) 10:24, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

While the Deseret News article misrepresents Brodie's conclusions and statements in the book, the DNA data is interesting in light of what Brodie did say. It would be useful to show how the DNA affirmed her caution on those family traditions of descent from Joseph Smith. Parkwells (talk) 02:57, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

How about something like:

"Given the polygamous marriages of Joseph Smith, Brodie like other historians assessed the evidence related to whether he may have had children with some of those women. She noted there was little evidence to support the family tradition that Moroni Pratt was his child. Of other claims, she said only that so-and-so and so-and-so might have been a son of Smith's, but noted the lack of evidence to support such claims. Since 2003, the research scientist xxxx Perego has done Y-DNA testing of descendants of some of those men to try to clarify paternity issues. He has found that descendants of neither Moroni Pratt, nor xxxxxx, xxx (and others if we want to list them) have Y-DNA matching that of Joseph Smith; therefore they were not his sons." Parkwells (talk) 03:09, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Sources

Footnote 31 is inaccurate. William M. Epstein's Psychotherapy as Religion is not a history of psychotherapy but a critical analysis. It refers only in passing to Freudian psychoanalysis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.216.14.1 (talk) 21:02, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

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Hunh?

She married Bernard Brodie, an ethnically Jewish academic who became a national defense expert; they had three children.

Hunh?

• I don't see a problem with trying to differentiate ethnicity from religion, which is presumably what the author intended.John Foxe (talk) 20:20, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

David Lloyd-Jones (talk) 19:58, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

• • I'm Jewish. I don't know of any such ethnicity, "the fact or state of belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition." What national or cultural tradition to you imagine to be shared by Jews?

• • Imho, it should either read "Bernard Brodie, a Jew" or else there should be an interpolation about the religious practices both of them settled on. In the somewhat fraught situation of the historian of the Mormons, I'd be interested. "Non-practicing" might be all it takes, but if they turned Unitarian or anything else, I'd be interested and I think it would be worthwhile information about what is ineluctably "a case."

David Lloyd-Jones (talk) 06:15, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Merriam-Webster defines "Jew" as

1. a person belonging to a continuation through descent or conversion of the ancient Jewish people

2. one whose religion is Judaism

I know there's been a lot of discussion in Israel about how to define Jewishness. "A halakic definition is available: a Jew is one who is born of a Jewish mother or who converts according to the halakah. The traditional criteria thus consist of biology (descent) and religion. In a sense, biology dominates religion, because, according to halakah, someone remains a Jew if born of a Jewish mother, even if he or she converts to another religion, although such a person is referred to as 'one who has destroyed himself.'"

I'm also wondering what a "non-practicing Christian" or a "non-practicing Muslim" might be. John Foxe (talk) 22:53, 2 July 2020 (UTC)