Talk:Evangelion

Evangelion

This page ought to be redirected to Neon Genesis Evangelion (I wish I knew how) rather than disambiguated.PhoenixSeraph 23:31, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

As an anonymous user, it seems I can't follow the process to nominate this article for deletion. However, if I could, I would, for this reason:

Wikipedia is not a dictionary. This article is a dictionary definition of the word "evangelion", and as such, doesn't belong in Wikipedia. Furthermore, having it in Wikipedia is problematic because many readers will be looking for an article called "Evangelion" and expecting to find Neon Genesis Evangelion. The word is very seldom used except in the context of that television series. For most readers who ask Wikipedia about "evangelion", the current Evangelion article is the wrong answer to the question; so it shouldn't be the default.

The more appropriate structure, instead of an article with the dictionary definition under Evangelion and a pointer there to Neon Genesis Evangelion, would be a redirect from Evangelion to Neon Genesis Evangelion and a pointer there to the definition, which could be put in Wiktionary or included as a section in the Neon Genesis Evangelion article. I note that the present Evangelion article apparently originated as a section of the Neon Genesis Evangelion article - so maybe what I'm suggesting would be better described as a "merge" instead of a "deletion" anyway.129.97.79.144 15:44, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. J'onn J'onzz 13:37, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I blanked the page and put in a soft redirect to Wiktionary. See if you like it, or you would prefer an automatic redirect to Neon Genesis Evangelion, or even move that article here. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 12:58, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

My vote goes for "hard" redirect to Neon Genesis Evangelion. There is no article here competing for space with NGE, thus it should just be a redirect. You could possibly move the link to Evangelion's entry in Wiktionary to the NGE article, itself.

I changed the hard redirect to Gospel to a hard redirect to Neon Genesis Evangelion I became aware of this when it was mentioned on slashdot, and I think it may have been a mistake to hardwire it to "Gospel" in English, although perhaps not in other languages. Since the page was otherwise blank, it didn't seem to be too hasty to hardwire it. Trishm 22:12, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

2007-02-6 Automated pywikipediabot message

--CopyToWiktionaryBot 19:22, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

On redirecting to Neon Genesis Evangelion

Up to 2008, at least, the anime term Evangelion has had no overlap with other Wikipedia entires, and no overlap with words in English, despite the fact that the word clearly has European roots. You can check the lack of entries at a dictionary website: evangelium, evangelion. It is only known because of the anime. In 2009, the only overlap that exists now is the album that's expected to be released in late 2009. Now, is the convenience of redirecting Evangelion to Neon Genesis Evangelion worth giving the album publicity by putting a disambig header link at the Neon Genesis Evangelion page? Hard to tell. —Tokek (talk) 03:00, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

I would oppose such a redirect; as this page stands, it is useful for disambiguating incoming links. And further, the theological term 'evangelion' has a much longer history than the anime - I knew that term long before I watched the series. --Gwern (contribs) 15:39 20 June 2009 (GMT)

Could you give me one instance in real life where you've seen the term "evangelion" used (spelled as such), or one link within Wikipedia that points to this article in a non-anime and non-band context? How could a word that's not in any of the dictionaries for any of the languages that use the latin alphabet be notable? While not all foreign words are non-encyclopedic, this one is iffy whether it could even stand as a dictionary term entry. —Tokek (talk)

Well, as I said - theological contexts, such as my highschool theology class. (So not even particularly advanced theology either.) As for dictionaries, I don't know which ones you care about. It's certainly in my OED, and I see a fair number of hits for it in Google Books - regular Google is obviously hopelessly swamped by the pop culture uses - eg. " The noun evangelion, translated "gospel" seventy-seven times in the English New Testament, simply means good news." --Gwern (contribs) 17:10 27 June 2009 (GMT)

I can't believe that there is even discussion in giving a 20-year-old anime parity with 2000 years of religious evolution. Any book on theology will cite evangelion in its proper context. Hell, the entire denomination of Evangelicalism draws its name from evangelion. It is the origin of the word "gospel". There is simply no justifiable argument for linking "evangelion" to this disambig page. It should link to what it is: Good news (Christianity). Everything else is drawn from that meaning. Serendi^podous 14:53, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Why is there a disambig page? Because of the dozens and hundreds of links that pointed here for the anime. --Gwern (contribs) 15:06 18 January 2011 (GMT)

So? That doesn't give it notability. It just means editors are lazy. I've nominated the redirect for discussion here.Serendi^podous 15:10, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

RFD is the wrong forum to sort out an editorial dispute not involving the proposed deletion of an existing redirect page. (The deletion-discussion pages exist because actually deleting a page and its history requires special admin support and thus extra oversight. Changing current content from an article (including a disambiguation page) to a redirect is an ordinary-editor action requiring no special powers.) Please continue your discussion here. If you are unable to reach consensus, you may consider escalating it to Requests for Comment or one of our other dispute resolution processes. Rossami (talk) 21:38, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

there is no article that directly called "Evangelion" unless you refer to the Rebuild of Evangelion names, and even then the name isn't known as just "Evangelion". the NGE articles just misuse it as a way to shorten the name, but without any citation. i can understand a disambiguation page for "Neon Genesis Evangelion".Bread Ninja (talk) 22:17, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Is there an attempt to hide the fact that other Evangelions were considered by Wikipedia by creating a new disambiguation page, instead of moving this one? Seems like an attempt to cover up the fact that Wikipedia had previous uses, considering the move function was not used, but a new page was written instead. Serendipodous who created the new dab page, then nominated the page history here for deletion. That seems wrong. 65.93.13.210 (talk) 03:31, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

What are you talking about, anon? Serendipodous didn't create this page. Another anon did way back in 2004. (Yes, that's right. This disambig page has been here for nearly 7 years, and in its very first revision says 'Evangelion' commonly refers to the anime.) --Gwern (contribs) 16:25 19 January 2011 (GMT)

He created Evangelion (disambiguation) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and nominated this page for deletion. Seemingly to hide the fact that this page has existed since 2004, by making a new one with no edit history. 65.93.13.210 (talk) 06:54, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

I dont know, but i think it would be better having Neon Genesis Evangelion page, but at the same time, if we already have a franchise page, then all pages related would already be included in the navbox. That aside, there aren't any articles about the specific title "Evangelion" anymore, unless you count the actual remake. which even then, isn't exactly the title with just "Evangelion" as it has other things within the title.Bread Ninja (talk) 05:17, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Let's look at the relevant guideline Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Is_there_a_primary_topic?. Why shouldn't we make this disambiguation page redirect to either NGE TV or NGE franchise article? The section points to 3 useful tools; let's see what they say:

1. WhatLinksHere pretty much all points to the anime. 1 for NGE.
2. [ Traffic statistics]: look at Good News+Gospel Book vs NGE TV - a factor of 9-18. Score 2 for NGE.
3. Google Scholar at least has some non-anime hits for the term, but still has a ton of anime hits; even if you go down into the 5th or 6th page where hopefully the obscure religious term would start to predominate, there are still a bunch of anime hits. Google Books isn't much better.

All three suggest we should make this page redirect to the anime and add a hatnote to the 2 religious articles.

There is one possible exception - whether we ought to consider 2 articles which aren't named 'Evangelion' to be 'vital articles' that ought to usurp the name. However, neither the Good News nor Gospel Book article is listed in Wikipedia:Vital articles, and Gospel Book is explicitly rated as low-importance by its wikiproject; Good News is rated high-importance (but like Gospel Book, is just start-class), but on the other hand, NGE TV is also rated high-importance by its wikiproject, so that factor doesn't argue either way. --Gwern (contribs) 16:25 19 January 2011 (GMT)

I think it should redirect to the main franchise instead of the anime, as the main franchise covers everything else related to NGE including mention of the anime.Bread Ninja (talk) 16:29, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

That's not unreasonable, but before we decide to redirect it to one of the Eva articles, we need consensus that it won't be redirected to either of the 2 religious articles. --Gwern (contribs) 16:50 19 January 2011 (GMT)

Well, it's been 5 days and Serendipodous has declined to argue. So I suppose it's time to discuss the target of the redirect. I think NGE TV is the best target. Most uses of Evangelion think principally of the TV series - it was the TV series that made the huge impact, and the movies are much less discussed (so far as I know offhand, there are zero academic mentions or discussions of Rebuild or the manga and certainly no real discussion of the games and more peripheral material).

But I just did a disambiguation run, so it doesn't really matter; the results seemed to bear up my belief that when the link isn't meant for something else like the mecha article or an OST article, it usually is about the TV series. --Gwern (contribs) 20:34 24 January 2011 (GMT)

Well there is also Rebuild of Evangelion to consider. Such as the films Evangelion 1.0 and Evangelion 2.0. I suggest NGE because there are various other works in the Neon Genesis Evangelion franchise that also have had Evangelion. Plus, i doubt the impact of the TV series overrides the other things. Thats why TV series is categorized to (anime) while the franchise is simply "Neon Genesis Evangelion". It is hardly also officially shortened to Evangelion, so i stil say the franchise is best way to go.Bread Ninja (talk) 22:09, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Seriously, go read the academic literature. It's all about the TV series. There's minimal discussion of EoE, and none of the manga or Rebuild. This is mirrored by general media coverage and fan knowledge. --Gwern (contribs) 19:02 25 January 2011 (GMT)

That's not what i'm talking about. Just because the anime is the most well-known media out of the entire franchise, it does not prove that Evangelion is a term most commonly known specifically for the anime. If it wasn't for the Rebuild of Evangelion (which i must say is significantly known) i would agree that it could just be put in for the anime without worry.Bread Ninja (talk) 20:08, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

"Just because the anime is the most well-known media out of the entire franchise", but what else would we judge on? You have to offer up some sort of reason for opposing a redirect to the TV series rather than just obstructing. --Gwern (contribs) 16:04 2 February 2011 (GMT)

let's put it simple. you're logic is "Neon genesis is the most well known series therefore, we should put evangelion simply because it's well known" but you're not trying to point out if NGE anime is most well known as Evangelion. that's why i think it should be in the main franchise, because so many articles with the name evangelion. otherwise we might as well keep the disambiguation page i believe.Bread Ninja (talk) 16:53, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

No, my point is that when you search in places like Google Scholar or JSTOR for 'Evangelion', the NGE thing that is discussed is usually the TV series. --Gwern (contribs) 00:05 3 February 2011 (GMT)

But like i said, if we do put it in the anime then we might aswell have a disambiguation page.Bread Ninja (talk) 21:22, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

I can't believe this, I needed to check out something about Evangelion and I got to a goddamn desambiguation page! This page must not exist. This is simply trolling. This is simply preposterous.Bass-Kuroi (talk) 14:57, 26 December 2019 (UTC)