Talk:Enki/Archive 1

Archive 1

Fertile Crescent

I am very confused as to why the box with links on the top right says "Fertile Crescent", but links to "Semitic Gods", while there is a perfectly good "Fertile Crescent" page on Wikipedia.

Apologies if this is a clumsy way of requesting a change; it's my first time trying to edit anything on Wikipedia. I couldn't find in the edit page what code corresponds to the box. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.235.170.87 (talk) 19:01, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Don't worry. I can't figure out where to find the template, but it means 'myths of the Fertile Crescent' so it's linked to the appropriate article about myths, or at least I assume that's the situation. This should have been at the bottom, by the way. Dougweller (talk) 19:33, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Cuneiform

Can someone put in the ISO 15924 Xsux 020 cuneiform ideograms for Enki? They are available on Wikipedia I understand. John D. Croft 09:00, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I've added the cuneiform name. --Limetom 09:21, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Robert McElvaine

This section seemed to be just opinion and gender politics: Robert McElvaine , attempts to show that this myth developed just before the dawn of the Patriarchal Age, where legitimizing myths legitimated stories of institutionalized male dominance. The active role of Ninhursag is different than in later times when male semen became a metaphor for seed, while women were reduced to being "like the Earth, rich, fertile, but empty unless a seed took root in it."(p125) This "seed metaphor transformed man from being little more than a bystander into a God-like creator of life and women from the Goddess like creator of life into ...dirt ...In Genesis the soil has no creative power" (p.128) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.34.36.175 (talk) 02:25, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

References

Deletion threatened

Unless someone can provide a reputable citation about the caduceus, I will act to delete these references. John D. Croft 10:14, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Have deleted the reference as promised John D. Croft 09:22, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

This is all well and good, but the caduceus article itself still links here on the (presumably false) premise that there is a connection. --AntonChanning (talk) 14:00, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Please clean this article from pseudo-science

Enki and Ea may be similar deities but not one and the same deity. Enki´s name does not mean "Lord of the Earth" - the fact has been known for decades already and in scientific circles nobody even doupts this. Enki is certainly a Sumerian high god, one of the oldest divine manifestations of the region. His Semitic counterpart Ea has several similarities, however it is certain that his name is derivated from the West-Semitic root hyy. Also this fact has been generally accepted for more than 20 years. Please do not refer to ancient theories of Kramer and Jacobsen. They are all brilliant in their time of compostition - but fully outdated in light of the present state of assyriological studies.

Since Wikipedia is often used by serious students to get useful information, it would be useful that all the changes are done by individuals who have actually studied the area of Ancient Near Eastern mythology. (Historian (ancient history)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.196.228.8 (talk) 18:04, 2007 January 31 (UTC)

The derivation of Ea's name from the West Semitic root *hyy has not been established irrefutably, especially as the Akkadian language is an East Semitic and not a West Semitic tongue. É-a (Ea) has a sound Sumerian etymology independent from *hyy, and it is phonetically like Eaaaaa also and it is attested from pre-Amoritic times when large numbers of West Semities did descend into Southern Mesopotamia, into the region where both names were used. This is not to say that the provenance of Enki-Ea spread because of the association of Ea with the word for life amongst West Semitic peoples.

The issue over the identity of Enki and Ea is in fact related to the issue of identity between Sumerian and Akkadian speaking civilisations. Clearly Sumerian culture was the "parent" culture to later Akkadian culture (in a similar though related way historians speak of the Classical Greco-Roman period - in that Romans derived their philosophical systems, their art and science from the ancient Greeks. Was Roman Jupiter the same or different than Greek Zeus? Greek Apollo the same as Roman Apollo? Greek Aphrodite the same as Roman Venus? Probably originally there were huge differences, but over time these differences disappeared. The same argument applies to Ea and Enki.

If you wish to persist with this discussion, why not in the article point to differences between the two divinities (other than a difference in name). Regarding the name Enki - it is irrefutable that En was a title (often in English translated as Lord, but which in fact was not gender specific. Female En were reported in Sumerian history (for example Enheduanna was En to Utu/Sin at Ur). Generally it has been found in the earliest period Male Gods had a female En and Female Goddesses had a male En. This seems to have been important in establishing corresponding "spouses" in ritual enactment of hieros gamos ceremonies associated with the Akitu ceremonies.

From this point of view En-ki literrally would mean male consort of Ki (the Earth), the Goddess also known as Ninhursag. The Hieros Gamos myth between Enki and Ninhursag-Ki forms an important part of the Enki mythos. Based upon this fact some have proposed that Enki was originally a divinised human title, officiating in the E-saggila temple of Ninhursag at Eridu, with this position taking over the functions and duties of the En-Abzu in the É-Abzu temple later sacred to the God Enki. If this is the case, it would explain the later myth that Enki in fact killed Abzu, reigning at the temple in his place.

Also, could you please sign your contributions so we can reply to you by name (see Wikipedia conventions)John D. Croft 22:09, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

---

:The derivation of Ea fromm hyy is indeed firmly established. The evidence comes from the West Semitic city of Ebla and dates from ca. 2500 BC. As every cuneiformist knows, the E2 was most probably pronounced ha in the time of the first records of the name Ea. Not even the slightest link between the sumerian signs E2 (house) and A (water)can be established.

Secondly: Sumerian culture was indeed more highly developed in early stages than Akkadian. However, they both developed in a reciprocal relation. Sumerian influenced the Akkadian and Akkadian the Sumerian. Akkadian culture was not "later" but parallel. It is not known at present if Enki and Ea were different deities. It is clear haowever, that ca 2500 the concept of Enki and Ea was already widespread all over the cuneiform culture.

Agreed

The etymology of Enki is unclear. As generally accepted, the name most certainly does not mean "Lord of the Earth". Enki(g) is not a genitive in sumerian language - this is certain. If the EN in the name means "Lord" is also uncertain. So the name could mean "EN of ki(g) of unknown meaning" or something completely different.

It is commonly understood that the En was the chief functionary of the local temple. When the temple was to a goddess, generally this position was male.

There is no known Hieros Gamos myth between Enki and Ninhursag. Ninhursag is only one manifestation of the mother goddess in Ancient Near East. No trace exists that Enki was somehow a husband of Ki.

There is evidence of a hieros gamos in the myth of Enki and Ninhursag. Ninhursag is commonly understood to have had the title Damgalnina, one of the titles of Enki's consort (and later mother of Marduk)

As for your text: "Based upon this fact some have proposed that Enki was originally a divinised human title, officiating in the E-saggila temple of Ninhursag at Eridu, with this position taking over the functions and duties of the En-Abzu in the É-Abzu temple later sacred to the God Enki. If this is the case, it would explain the later myth that Enki in fact killed Abzu, reigning at the temple in his place." - There is no E-saggila temple of Eridu. I have heard no such theories. I do not understand the meaning of the theory as well - there is not even the slightest evidence supporting this.

The temple of Ninhursag at Eridu was called the E-saggila.

PS - I am not a frquent user or editor of wikipedia. I simply correct some misleading facts here which are making harm to my students who seem to read articles related to ANE mythology here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.196.228.8 (talk) 01:02, 2007 February 1 (UTC)

Hope this helps clarify matters John D. Croft 08:33, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

(Historian (ancient history)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.196.228.8 (talk) 01:05, 2007 February 1 (UTC)

O_o ... religion =! science, idiota. 90.210.41.131 (talk) 08:02, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Name origin

As far as I know, in spite of Ea being the Babylonian incarnation of the sumerian Enki, the word "Ea" is itself a Sumerian name; it seems that the word "Enki" was more of a title for whichever one of the gods was responsible for the day-to-day administration of the Earth realm, and that Ea/Enki held such a position.

There are some tales that support this concept; in one of the tellings of the Confusion of Languages (originating the Biblical story of the Tower of Babel), Enki differentiated all the languages because he was jealous of the fact that Enlil took all the glory while he was stuck with most of the menial administrative work; and the fact that he held and dispensed the Me, the edicts of civilization. -- Wtrmute

Merge suggestion

As Enki and Ea are the same diety and much of this information overlaps, I feel that they should be merged into one article, with Ea redirecting to Enki. Any peculiarities specific to the Babylonian incarnation could be addressed in a section of the Enki page. Opinions? -- Krishva 03:22, August 20, 2005 (UTC)

Quite appeal. Ea is known as sumerian name of the swampy water that, once divided from plains, didn't carry pestilence from mud. Enki is the man, consider it as a myth, that worked to inhabit these muddy places with water engineering, as terraforming, so sites that were seen as negative was turned to useful camps. Enki is the engineer, as the class of technician workers that contribute to obtain this peculiar process for Sumerian people. --Phunster 10:30, 14 Dec 2005 (UTC)

My instinct is to say no. I think Enki should be derived only from Sumerian accounts while Ea should be derived from Babylonian/Akkadian. One distinct reason for this is that, while there may not be any contraditions between the surviving accounts of both gods, there may be lost information about Enki that does not agree with that of Ea. In a parallel issue, some desire has been expressed to split Inanna from Ishtar. --Tydaj 00:56, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

If there is a substantial amount of information separating Ea from Enki, I would tend to say it should be added to the articles to differentiate them. Right now, they contain much of the same information, and they tend to admit Ea as a derivation from Enki without much differentiation.

If there is in fact little to no differentiation between Ea and Enki (as was my impression), maybe the articles could be merged until such information is brought to light? It doesn't seem to me like the structure of Wikipedia articles should reflect a speculation about future discoveries. --Krishva 06:12, August 21, 2005 (UTC)

Theories

According to Sumarian Mythology, the 'physical' god-being Lord Enki (as opposed to the personified archetype) was a propenent of allowing humanity survive the Flood that caused the Great Collapse in 12,000 BCE. After Enlil, Anu and the rest of the apparent Council of Heaven decided that Man would undergo total annihilation and rebirth, he covertly rescued the human man Ziusudra by either instructing him to build some kind of an ark for his family, or by bringing him into the heavens in a magic boat. This is apparently the source for the Noah's Ark myth, though the Ziusudra myth in itself may be rooted in yet older myths dating back as far as 11,000 BCE (but there is no way of proving it at present, due to the apparent nonexistence of writing during the time that these myths presumably existed--they are generally reverse-engineered to some degree from the oral traditions of indigenous peoples). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Khranus (talk • contribs) 07:36, 2003 October 6 (UTC)

The above was written by User:Khranus, who was well-known for trying to add ridiculous crank theories to Wikipedia before he eventually got banned. However, unlike the stuff he'd tried adding directly to this article about some entity called LULU, the stuff here in talk looks vaguely plausible to me. Would anyone familiar with Sumerian mythology please comment? Bryan 08:14, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

There is no mention of anything happening in the region 11,000 BCE or 12,000 BCE. Nor anything about humans surviving the flood. The Flandrian transgression, in which oceas rose with the meltwater after the Glacial maximum saw sea levels rise at about 1 milimeter per year (if that) - hardly likely to Cause a flood. The only exception to that are the three semi-landlocked Seas of the Middle East - the Persian Gulf (through the Straits of Hormuz), the Black Sea (through the Bosphorus) and the Red Sea (through the Bab el Mandib). They flooded at different times, and there was a "breach of the dam wall" effect in each case. The Black Sea was the last to flood (circa 5,600 BCE).

The Noah Story relates to Ubar Tutu (or his son) King of Sharrupak. He may have organised the evacuation of the people of Sharrupak to higher ground circa 3,100 BCE or thereabouts, perhaps using river barges, during a flood that lasted 7 days, and went from horizon to horizon. The flood sediments at Sharrupak have been found.

• The flood happened around 4000 BC. I heard there was archeological proof about it. Igor Skoglund

Igor, you are referring to Leonard Woolley's excavations at Ur, which showed during Ubaid times about 3-5 metres of marine sediments. It has been found that these marine sediments are not found at other Sumerian cities (unlike the Sharrupak, which has been found to extend nearly as far as Kish), and it is now thought that rather than being a flood, this was the height of the Flandrian transgression, the post Ice Age melting of the glaciers. John D. Croft 08:38, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Enki and Ea may be similar deities but not one and the same deity. Enki´s name does not mean Lord of the Earth - that has been known for decades already and in scientific circles nobody even doupts this. Enki is certainly a Sumerian high god, one of the oldest divine manifestations of the region. His Semitic counterpart Ea has several similarities, however it is completely certain, that his name is derivated from the West-Semitic root hyy. also this fact has been generally accepted for more than 20 years. Please do not refer to ancient theories of Kramer and Jacobsen. They are all brilliant in their time of compostition, but fully outdated in light of the present state of assyriological studies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.196.228.8 (talk) 17:58, 2007 January 31 (UTC)

It is important in an encyclopedia to refer to all views. Jacobsen and Kramer are important views as well as more recent studies. The article attempts to be encyclopedic in this matter. John D. Croft 08:35, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Since wikipedia is often used by serious students to get information, it would be useful, that all the changes are done by individuals who have actually studied the area of Ancient Near Eastern mythology. (Historian (ancient history)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.196.228.8 (talk) 17:58, 2007 January 31 (UTC)

Merge suggestion

I think Ea should be merged with this article due to overlapping info. See Talk:Ea for discussion. --Krishva 03:28, August 20, 2005 (UTC)

I agree Ea Should be merged with the Enki article being they are both the same deity.Khaosinfire 04:42, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

article partly wrong !

Enki was a young son of Nammu and An.
Enki was married to Ninhursag.
Enki made love with his daughter : Ninsar and got a baby-girl : Ninkurra.
Later, he made love with Ninkurra and got a baby-girl : Uttu.
Great Collapse in 12,000 BCE is false. There was no great collapse, but a flood which happened in about 3150 BC.
The given dates are wrong : sumerians exist only since 4000 BC !
LU.LU didnt exist.
After his death, Enki became the God of the water and Magic.
Zecharia Sitchin and "The Lost Book of Enki" : this book is full of false things. The theory is false and contains science-fiction. This has nothing to do in Wikipedia...how sad. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saggiga (talk • contribs) 13:40, 2005 January 6 (UTC)

Indeed, this article seems an utter hodge-podge of historical mythological info and New Age conjecture. I do what I can to clean it up, and I going to assume that your points are correct in my editing. If anyone wants to refute them, go ahead. -Tydaj 3 July 2005 00:57 (UTC)

It would seem the only way to prevent Sitchin's views from leaking into the concept of the actual historical view is to have a seperate section for Sitchin. Otherwise these problems would probably repeat themselves. -Tydaj 3 July 2005 02:13 (UTC)

Could you please point me to the story of Enki's death. I don't believe he did die. Enki was God of water and magic from the start.

Regards

John D. Croft 07:00, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Jessica Simpson

The original photo of Enki.jpg showed the Jessica Simpson album cover. If you guys want your photo, then make a new file instead of overriting the old one.--CyberGhostface 21:11, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

some more infos !

Enki (young boy), lord of the sea and the magic, He was son of Nammu and An.

One day, Enlil and Enki will fight about Cattle and Grain. We dont know the end of the story ! It may be the same story than of Abel and Cain.

We can only suppose that Enki killed his older brother Enlil. And after that, his parents made him leave the isle of Bahrain. He had to exile in Sumer (Iraq).

Enki fell in love and made love with his sister Ninhursag . They got one daughter Ninsar. Enki was sex-obsessed and full of lust. He made love to his daughter Ninsar and got a baby-girl : Ninkurra, goddess of Mountain Pastures. Enki left Dilmun to Sumer with a boat and created the city of Eridug. Some years later, Enki made love with Ninkurra and got a baby-girl : Uttu , goddess of weaving and clothing. One day, he was very curious, so he ate Ninhursag's plants and became very ill. Ninhursag healed him. After his death, Enki became the God of the water and Magic. Ninhursag became the earth Goddess also called Nintu (the lady who gave birth) and Ki (Earth) and Ninmah (the exalted lady).

Enki and Ninhursag had many children : - Ninsar , the Mistress of Vegetation, - Dumuzi (rightful son in sumerian), King-God of Bad-tibira , stables, milk and fertility (Tamuz in Akkadian), - Geshtinanna the Mistress of wine.

Source : http://persocite.francite.com/saggiga/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saggiga (talk • contribs) 19:04, 2006 November 11 (UTC)

This source is highly suspect. I know of no story of Enlil being killed by Enki. The author is confusing this story with another referring to a struggle between farmers and herders, that in fact relates to the seasonal changes in Southern Iraq and lies possibly behind the story of Cain and Abel. As a result I have deleted this from the article. John D. Croft 17:08, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I will come up with sources.Saggiga

I think references to Ea should be removed because it is not good to mix sumerian and semitic mythologies, it mixes all up !.

Paragraph "Ea" and West Semitic deities should be removed.

And also this article should be made much shorter .... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saggiga (talk • contribs) 19:04, 2006 November 11 (UTC)

questions

Hi, John D. Croft

Could you please explain me what this has to do with Enki ?? Yoiu added many stuff with Babylonian and chrisitan religion, but it has nothing to do with Enki and Sumer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saggiga (talk • contribs) 17:25, 2006 November 12 (UTC)

Enki as Ea was also a god of Babylonian religion, and his documented influence spread far and wide, to Hittite, Hurrian and West Semitic Canaanite people. I have added these links to the "Influence" section.John D. Croft 08:43, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

some comments about the article

1/ why did you remove the part I added about the fight of Enki and Enlil ? One source for this : http://home.comcast.net/~chris.s/sumer-faq.html "The Dispute between Cattle and Grain" Enlil and Enki, at Enki's urging, create farms and fields for the grain goddess Ashnan and the cattle goddess Lahar. This area has places for Lahar to take care of the animals and Ashnan to grow the crops. The two agricultural deities get drunk and begin fighting, so it falls to Enlil and Enki to resolve their conflict - how they do so has not been recovered. (Kramer 1961 pp. 53-54; Kramer 1963 pp. 220-223)

because the fight is not between Enlil and Enki but between Anshan and Lahar, which Kramer refers to as a seasonal myth, with the grain being grown in the fields after irrigation, and the cattle being grazed upon the stubble. I feel it belongs elsewhereJohn D. Croft 08:49, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

2/ Mixing sumerian and assyro-babylonian Mythology is not correct. Why are you talking about Ea here when this god replaced Enki 1000 years later and took all its attributes ? You can find sumerian stories of Enki at : http://home.comcast.net/~chris.s/sumer-faq.html

See the thesis at [[1]]. It seems the distiction between Enki and Ea is a lot older than you claim. In fact the equation of Enki = Ea first occurs in early Akkadian times, if not before. To claim it is 1,000 years later is in error. John D. Croft 08:49, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

3/ There are some errors like "Eridu, (Uru = City, Idug = Good) ." In fact, Eridug comes from Eri.dugga means "City" + "Good, sweet". Those errors are hard to find because the article is much too long.

4/ This article should be made much shorter and clearer : -Keep only facts that are agreed. -Divide this article in clearer topics : origins, translation, attributes, story 1, story 2, story 3, conclusion etc. -Remove babylonian myths talking about Ea (like Atrahasis,six generations of Gods etc.) and move them to article about Ea.

See the discussion above about the decision to fuse the articles on Ea and Enki. John D. Croft 08:49, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

As you are updating this often, please could you do it John D. Croft ;).

Regards

Saggiga

you are welcome to improve the article, but note that there is no separate article about Ea. Both Ea and Enki are treated in this article. They can still be divided into separate sections I suppose. dab (ᛏ) 23:17, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Well I have updated the article but unfortunately , John D. Croft deleted all that.

I hope he will do updates because this article doesnt belong to him or to anyone.

I also hope he will kindly take my comments into account.

If not, other people should do it.

Regards

Saggiga

A'as

I'm not quite sure how it may be done, but could we please make a link from this page to the page of A'as? He is a god of Hittite mythology derived from Enki.
Redian 19:28, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

GA

• Please expand the first "paragraph" in the lead as it is currently one sentence. DONE
• Please link deity DONE
• The name Ea is possibly of Semitic origin and may be a derivation from the West-Semitic root *hyy meaning "life" in this case used for "spring", "running water." This seems Original Research "Possibly" and "may"
• "[1]. remove the extra full-stop
• The titles are poorly worded, His early history should just be "Early history"
• Some paragraphs are huge and can be broken up
• Article contains lots of external jumps throughout the text that need to be converted to references, this being said there are a lack of references.
• Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (headings), headings generally should not repeat the title of the article
• Article has some layout problems, the "See Also" section comes before "works cited", which should be renamed to notes, per Wikipedia:Guide to layout
• Make the spelling of English words consistent with either American or British spelling, depending upon the subject of the article. Examples include: honour (B) (American: honor), organize (A) (British: organise), realise (B) (American: realize), ization (A) (British: isation), isation (B) (American: ization).
• Avoid using contractions like (outside of quotations): doesn't, doesn't, doesn't.
• Enki in popular culture and an unreferenced trivia section and should be removed or merged with the body per Wikipedia:Avoid trivia sections in articles
• Enki and later Ea were apparently depicted, you said this in the lead why do you mention it again?
• Lots of one sentence paragraphs thus failing the "Well-written criteria"
• Enki has been said to be: poorly worded and who said this?
• External links need clean-up - AncientNearEast.Net http://www.ancientneareast.net/religion_mesopotamian/gods/enki_ea.html - > AncientNearEast.Net
• Web references are incorrectly formatted and do not contain a title, publisher, date and author if applicable and last accessed date. Again check the cite template above. M3tal H3ad 08:06, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

I have attempted to address the concerns listed here. Does this mean we can be upgraded? John D. Croft 02:17, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

What have you done to integrate the trivia section? Savidan 22:12, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Snow Crash

While reading the section in Neal Stephenson's fictional Snow Crash, he states that there were eight organs vice seven that became ill (as well as eight plants). Did Neal mess up his research, or is the page wrong?

Anonymous - —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.56.145.34 (talk • contribs) 10:21, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

--- The "His Attributes" section needs work. If there is a connection between Enki, The Caduceus, and Jesus, the connection needs to be better cited (at least!). Kdevans 18:48, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I called upon someone to attribute this quote and threatened deletion if it didn't come. It hasn't come so I have deleted it. John D. Croft 08:56, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

GA Review

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   a (fair representation): b (all significant views):

5. It is stable.

   

6. It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.

   a (tagged and captioned): b lack of images (does not in itself exclude GA): c (non-free images have fair use rationales):

7. Overall:

   a Pass/Fail:

There are some major problems with this article that need to be dealt with before it can reach GA status. To begin with, the lead needs much more work, as it contains two major flaws. The first is its lack of comprehensiveness - for an article of this size, the lead should be longer and should briefly review every section covered by the article itself. The other problem is that it introduces information that is not discussed anywhere else, namely the discussion on the meaning of his name. This should be incorporated into the body of the article and should be only briefly summarized in the lead.

In general, my biggest problem is the sporadic and non-uniform referencing through this entire article. This is the type of article that, if lacking inline citations, makes a lot of points in the article indistinguishable from original research. The attributes section lacks inline citations completely, which is a problem since it consists of a series of very specific details that a vandal could easily mess with if they are not cited. Also, you should keep to a uniform style of referencing – for example up until the first paragraph of the Creator of Humankind, you use the ref tags, then suddenly you switch styles. Everything should be converted to ref tag style throughout the article. Then you stop citing facts that could easily be challenged halfway through the section. The Restorer of Balance section is almost entirely unreferenced as well, whereas the Champion of Humankind section is entirely unreferenced. Enki and Inanna Portrayal, Influence and Ea and West Semitic deities contain far too few inline citations too.

A lot of weaselly words worry me too, in terms of original research. For example, the phrase "and it is very probable that the god was referred to by his later name at least from this period onwards" in the early history section needs a citation from a reliable source claiming this.

Some of the prose structure needs work as well. Aside from a host of minor corrections that I began to correct, but quickly abandoned (things like not starting sentences with "but" or "however"), there are some more important concerns. For example, the third and fourth "paragraphs" (the latter is only one sentence long) in the Creation of Humankind section should be combined to form one paragraph - a sentence doth not its own paragraph make. The Restorer of Balance section suffers from this problem as well, and many of those sections could be combined.

Instead of having an entire section for the translation under "Confuser of Languages," you should integrate this role somewhere else in the body of the article and link the translation as either a reference for the role or as an external link or, if you deem it necessary, summarize it. An article does need to include all relevant aspects of the subjects, but it does not need to include such large sections of exact work.

Normally, when a review encounters a small number of problems it is put on hold for a period of up to seven days so that the problems can be resolved. In this case, however, I believe the problems to be too numerous and major (lack of many inline citations) for the article to be put on hold (the problems listed are just the most pressing ones - there are more stylistic concerns that have to be looked at as well once the larger issues are dealt with). When these issues are addressed, the article can be renominated. If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to a Good article reassessment. Thank you for your work so far. Cheers, CP 00:14, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

West Semitic Links

Ea is only with difficulty identified with Ba'al Hadad, who was a storm divinity, similar to the Sumerian Enlil, Hurrian Teshub or Hittite Tarhunt. Ea was a god of ground water, not sky water, and was the lord of the Abzu, the source of river springs. In Sumerian myth his opposition to Enlil is always resolved peacefully, whereas in West Semitic myth violence between the two divinities results. John D. Croft (talk) 21:28, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Why no image

Why is there no image of Enki. There is a rich iconography of the divinity from cylinder seals. Can anyone find one for the article? John D. Croft (talk) 17:49, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Removed material from User:Ositairoku

I removed this material contributed by User:Ositairoku:

He is most often depicted: stepping out of the ocean; wearing a fish-suit of some kind; with fish or snakes around him; with streams of water flowing off of his shoulders, which is where the use of lines and waves to denote middle-ranks in the military probably originated.<ref> Iroku, Osita (2001), "A Day in the Life of God" (Enlil Institute) p.39–40 </ref> In the tablets, Ea is most known for (a) being the first of his family to propose and continually promote the creation-development of the Earth; (b) his engineering expertise technological ability, which was contained or displayed in the ‘mes’ he drafted, created, programmed or shared with the angels and their human constituents for the purpose of advancing one society or another from time to time; (c) losing control over his son Marduk, who became a terror across the globe, as indicated in Revelations ; and (d) his unabashed sexual drive and promiscuity, which, among other things, fostered the creation of modern man – a hybrid of angels and Homo sapiens.<ref>Iroku, p.40</ref>

This is one of several instances of this user presenting as fact (or as archaeological consensus) theories from amateur archaeologist Osita Iroku about some Sumerian tablets containing prototypes of all elements of human culture and underlying all historical trends, and theories from Zecharia Sitchin about how those same tablets prove that ancient Sumeria was under the control of aliens worshipped as gods. If any of this can be traced to a reliable source that is not Iroku, it can be added in an appropriate place. In the unlikely event that Iroku's alternate interpretation of the evidence ever becomes notable, someone can introduce a section about him. As it is written now, however, this doesn't belong on this page. --Kineticman (talk) 11:43, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Ea

Ea is a redirect to a disambiguation page. The majority of links intending Ea the water deity use the redirect Ea (Babylonian god) but there are several other redirects, including Ea (god) and Ea (mythology), all redirects linking to Enki. If a spin-off article is created for Ea, probably its page name should be Ea (Babylonian god). --Una Smith (talk) 14:57, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Astro-confusion

The intro claims:

He was assimilated^{[clarification needed]} to the zenith in the Sun's path at the winter solstice.^[1]

"Assimilated to" refers to "connected to"? Then the facts are about the following:

• the path of Ea referred to the band of constellations south of the celestial equator [2]
• the solar position at the winter solstice has nothing to do with zenith, but I think the text means that the solar position at the winter solstice is in the middle of the path of Ea.

The statement as it stands is nonsense, but could be modified to something substantial. Opinionate! Rursus dixit. (^mbork³!) 09:57, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Now changed, question obsolete unless some1 reverts. Rursus dixit. (^mbork³!) 12:55, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Distinctions

This article fails to differentiate characteristics of Ea and Enki as if the two were wholly the same deity. They were two separate deities who were — within Mesopotamia — strongly equated with each other (such as, for example, in the same way that the Egyptian god Set was associated with the Hittite god Teshub). It also fails to clearly distinguish how the character of each Ea and Enki evolved over time (particularly how the character of one was added to the character of the other). Instead, the article seems to be blind to time and a separation of the two gods, describing both as a gumbo of their characters throughout time. I was trying to figure out a way to at least begin correcting this. At the moment, the only idea I have is to have a separate section for Ea (perhaps just before the final section) which describes earlier similarities and differences from Enki (before they became more blended later in time), and move parts from the sections before it which are mainly unique to Ea, and not Enki, to that section. Any other feedback on these thoughts? — al-Shimoni (talk) 02:51, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

The Creation of Humans

This poem begins with a description of how the gods had to work for their bread by digging out irrigation canals:

The gods were dredging the rivers, were piling up their silt on projecting bends-- and the gods lugging the clay

began complaining

— Jacobsen, Harps 154

Nammu, who is either the sea or the goddess of the riverbed, goes to her son Enki, who is asleep in the deep (the Apsu) and entreats him to rise from his bed and "fashion servants of the gods" (Kramer, History Begins 109).[3]

I think this should be included. To me, it seems a fanciful account of the introduction of migrant labor 7000 years ago, though I know no one who shares that view. ==Pawyilee (talk) 14:12, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Portrayal

The second paragraph of this section reads like some kind of horoscope or personal reflection and has no citations. Doesn't it need some? The first paragraph makes some pretty substantial claims as well, for that matter. Not necessarily false - I know very little about Enki - but it should probably be supported. Generally, the question is: where and by whom is Enki portrayed like this? --BuffaloBill90 (talk) 00:32, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

I've removed the paragraph. It starts by saying he wasn't a trickster and I could easily find sources describing him as one. Unsourced and pov, it didn't belong there, although the section needs work. Dougweller (talk) 17:57, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

New Citation(s)

The latest citation needs some help. I wasn't sure how to parse it right, and it looks like another user had some difficulty understanding how to fix it, as well. The reference is:

Kramer 1963 pp. 149-151; Kramer 1961 pp. 69-72 Christopher B. Siren (1999) based on John C. Gibson's Canaanite Mythology and S. H. Hooke's Middle Eastern Mythology

I am not sure if this is: α) two separate citations (Kramer 63 and Kramer 61) plus a note about the citations (Chris Siren onward); β) 3 citations (Kramer 63, 61, and Siren 99) plus a note about how Siren got his interpretation from 2 additional sources (Gibson and Hooke); or γ) I am just confused. Is anyone familiar enough with these works to parse this correctly? Either way, there is at least 2 separate sets of <ref> tags here, maybe more. — al-Shimoni (talk) 08:56, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Gratuitous Connecting of Sumerian and Biblical Mythoi

Let me first say that I would freely grant the historical connection between the ancient Hebrews and other, older Semitic peoples of Mesopotamia. That their mythology should contain rough parallels with the mythology of other groups in the area is to be expected, and can indeed be clearly supported by historical research and textual criticism.

That said, this theme is simply done to death in this article. If you are talking about the Gilgamesh flood myth, a reference to Noah would not be untoward. When the Tower of Babel comes up, it is certainly proper to mention the Lament for Ur. But what about the following?

The Gods gather in terror, but Enlil (his place in the Enuma Elish is later taken by Enki's son Marduk) subdues and slays Tiamat with the arrows of his winds which he shoots down her throat. The Bible refers indirectly to this in Genesis 1:3 "And the breath of God moved across the face of the waters".

What on earth does this mean? I am not an expert on this subject, so perhaps there is some commonly-understood connection that is simply not being properly referenced here, but I see no connection between these two things. The biblical passage quoted is very obscure and must have been intended as a further indication of the chaotic state of the universe at the time. I mean, at this point in the narrative the ocean and sky haven't even been separated - light had not yet been created and separated from the darkness. But somehow some ancient Hebrew storyteller thought it was appropriate to reference Marduk's battle with Tiamat here? This is absurd. Reference the often-proposed connection between Nimrod and Marduk, if you really want to do something like that, but this just doesn't make sense.

Then,

The pool of the Abzu at the front of his temple, was adopted also at the temple to Nanna (Akkadian Sin) the Moon, at Ur, and spread throughout the Middle East. It remains, as the sacred pool at Mosques, and as the Baptismal font in Christian Churches.

I'm sorry, but this is just ridiculous. We somehow need to explain why the religions of desert-dwelling people feature water as a significant, sacred substance? It's not enough that it is the basis of all life on earth? And rather scarce in the desert? It has to be because of some past precedent? Has the author of this passage heard of Occam's Razor?

I see no way around the simple deletion of the sentences quoted above. I also personally feel the need (since this is a pervasive theme in this article) to go through and tone it down just a tad, to make the article a little more scholarly. Since this will involve a decently major revision, I wanted to announce my intentions before I went and did anything (just in case I'm missing something huge that someone wants to talk to me about). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Calmargulis (talk • contribs) 16:40, 2006 April 10 (UTC)

As the author of much of this material - there are clear links between the 'deep' (Biblical Tehwom and Babylonian Tiamat). The spirit of God (Hebrew ruach = breath) is liked to the wind or air God Enlil (later called El-lil, God of air, and linked to the Biblical El = God). Regarding the Abzu, there is clear links in sacred architecture throughout the Middle East from Sumerian temples to Mosques and churches of today. Finally can you please sign your name John D. Croft 16:57, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

This biblical comparison also suffers from a wrong cross-reference. The spirit (ruach) of Elohim does not move upon the face of the deep (tehom) but upon the face of the waters (Genesis 1:2).--DStanB (talk) 23:34, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Recent edits

Should 'Enlil' have been removed? Enki and Mercury - can this be reliably sourced? I see a number of fringe/outright kook sources. Dougweller (talk) 15:47, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

---

Shouln't this sentence say "third century" rather than "third millenium" because the third millenium is from January 1, 2001 until December 31, 3000. " A large number of myths about Enki have been collected from many sites, stretching from Southern Iraq to the Levantine coast. He figures in the earliest extant cuneiform inscriptions throughout the region and was prominent from the third millennium down to Hellenistic times."

---

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.77.47.161 (talk) 14:33, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

YAHWEH and Reference 18

There is a claim that Enki is an antecedent for Elohim (YHWH) in Judaism [4] . However this statement does not seem to be supported by the reference. First off the link is not proper and it is dead. After some searching this seems to be the link http://dspace.utlib.ee/dspace/bitstream/handle/10062/958/espakpeeter.pdf?sequence=5 It is a Masters dissertation and it is unclear if it has been peer-reviewed. Also it is unclear if the source ever actually makes that claim. Searching for Israel or YHWH seems to yield a section that is used as an example to explore the attitude of the ancients towards their gods rather than a statement about the origin of YHWH. Maybe I misread? Mrdthree (talk) 05:16, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Corrected referenceEspak, Peeter. (2006) Ancient Near East Gods Enki and Ea:Diachronical Analysis of Text and Images from the Earliest Sources to the Neo-Sumerian Period. Tartu University, Theology Department. Masters Thesis. http://dspace.utlib.ee/dspace/bitstream/handle/10062/958/espakpeeter.pdf?sequence=5 Mrdthree (talk) 05:22, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Verfy few Masters theses can be used as reliable sources. As for Ea and hyy, we have *hyy&f=false and *hyy&f=false at least and I've reworded the text and sourced it. And removed some bolding. Dougweller (talk) 10:55, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

That still leaves the other statement. User:John D. Croft who added it is still active, perhaps he can help. Dougweller (talk) 11:10, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Etymology

I've researched the etymology of the name of planet "Earth," and there is no mention of it being derived from Ea. Is it possible that there is a connection, considering that "Ea" perhaps means "life"? 71.161.255.116 (talk) 15:44, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

I would search for the 1500s-1600s decison to spell earth, instead of erth. However, tthis type of documentation seems shrouded in mystery if it exists at all. Spelling choices of this period often seem to be flippantly ascribed to "printers". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.36.80.101 (talk) 17:11, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Enki and the Making of Man

In the section Enki and the Making of Man, it says:

"His mother Nammu (creatrix also of Abzu and Tiamat)"

But I'm not sure this is accurate. Nammu was replaced by Tiamat in later versions of various myths, but is there a myth where Nammu is in the same myth as Tiamat?

I'm pretty sure this should be reworded to:

"His mother Nammu (roughly equatable to Tiamat)"

The distinction is important. Themetacognologist (talk) 20:02, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

Apzu changed to Apsu

The first reference to the Abyss was spelled Apzu and the second Apsu. They both redirect to Apsû, so i changed the spelling of the first reference to Absu for consistency. -- divine.androgyne

In fact Apsu was the Akkadian version of the earlier Sumerian Abzu (where Ab = water, Zu = far (or deep)) I have added this to the article.

Regards John D. Croft 08:07, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

To him was assigned the control of the watery element, and in this capacity he becomes the shar apsi; i.e. king of the Apsu or "the abyss". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.28.207.217 (talk) 23:30, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Ea/Enki

Capricornus is generally accepted as the zodiac sign for Ea/Enki but Aquarius may also be Ea/Enki because in his human form the carved reliefs are identical to the earliest imagery of Aquarius with the water/nectar of the gods flowing out of his shoulder into the mouth of a fish in the cosmic sea sky area of the constellations. Contemporary imagery of Aquarius varies greatly from earlier traditional imagery when the jug or cup were added to his image. 1 of my sources is www.mazzaroth.com/.../Sumarian info of Annunaki.htm Another is www.mazzaroth.com/ChapterThree/SumerianInfoOfAnnunaki-Anakim.htm 13:06 1.26.12 Ourminesi — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ourminesi (talk • contribs) 18:05, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

SineBot is correct.

Both Capricorn and Aquarius are the zodiac signs that were for Ea/Enki. Gu-la 'The Great One' (Aquarius) represented Ea/Enki himself. Sahur-Mas-ku 'The Goat-fish' (Capricorn) was associated with Ea/Enki because the goat-fish was one of his symbols. Both Aquarius and Capricorn were originally zodiac signs with aquatic symbolism.

The following is from Babylonian Star-lore by Gavin White

Like many of the constellations that embody aquatic symbolism, the Great One is closely associated with the god of wisdom and water, known as Enki in Sumerian and Ea in Akkadian. One astrology text simply states that ‘the Great One is the Lord of springs, Ea’. In ancient art Enki is commonly depicted with overflowing vases in his hands or set around his throne dais, and sometimes he is seen seated within a square enclosure that is thought to represent the Abyss.

The ultimate origins of Aquarius can be traced back to a figure often called the lahmu or ‘nude hero’. He first appears in the artwork of the early 3rd millennium where he sometimes appears in depictions of the ‘Lion-bull conflict’ (see the Bisonman for more details). These images typically portray him as a benevolent figure, protecting the herds from the attack of savage lions.

From 2500 BCE the nude hero starts to appear in new contexts. First, he is seen as a gatekeeper holding open stylised doors. But it is only in the Akkadian period, a couple of centuries later, that he becomes associated with the water god Enki and makes his first appearance as a water-bearer. By the start of the 2nd millennium his iconography has settled down into the familiar form of a standing man holding an overflowing vase (right). To emphasize his celestial character stars are sometimes arrayed about him

Mul Gu-la (The Great One) - Aquarius www.skyscript.co.uk/babylonian_aquarius.pdf

Mul Suhur-Maš-Ku (The Goatfish) - Capricorn www.skyscript.co.uk/babylonian_capricorn.pdf

There are websites that inform that Babylonian astronomers identified that Aquarius as representing Ea/Enki. Aquarius was identified in Enki/Ea.

https://www.constellation-guide.com/constellation-list/aquarius-constellation/

https://osr.org/blog/astronomy/aquarius/

https://www.space.com/21511-aquarius-constellation-facts-about-the-water-bearer.html https://nineplanets.org/aquarius-constellation/

https://star-name-registry.com/aquarius

http://www.peoplesguidetothecosmos.com/constellations/aquarius.htm

https://www.thoughtco.com/aquarius-constellation-4177757#:~:text=The%20Story%20of%20Aquarius.%20The%20constellation%20Aquarius%20was,visited%20the%20Babylonian%20part%20of%20the%20Middle%20East.

https://www.gigoptix.com/aquarius-constellation-history-location-how-to-view/

Satabishara (talk) 00:12, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

@Satabishara: White's work is published by White. We need academic sources, not of the above qualify. See WP:VERIFY and WP:RS. Doug Weller talk 19:36, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

We....There are astronomy, space websites that recognize that Aquarius represented Ea/Enki , and I posted links to them. Aquarius representing Ea/Enki shouldn't even be debatable. There is a figure of him with waves of water coming from his shoulders. Satabishara (talk) 13:03, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Ea and West Semitic deities

@37.162.7.60: There are multiple deities mentioned in this section: Ea, El, Ia, Yahu, and YHWH. "Ya" is not even mentioned except in alternate spellings as the name of a river, not a deity. To assume that the only deity mentioned in the section is "Ya" is mistaken, and even if it were it not, it would be WP:POV to assume identity between deities, which is rightfully noted as disputed. Skyerise (talk) 12:10, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

• Ia (Ya is an alternative spelling), Yahu and YHWH are the same according to the cited scholars, and are Canaanite pronunciations of Ea, and the paragraph is precisely about this identification. El (the supreme God) is mentioned just to say that in Ebla it is attested that names ending in -el (Mikael) sometimes ended in -ia (Mikaia), which, by the way, is also found identically in the Jewish tradition. The same god (Ia/Ea) was also named Oannes and Dagon in Canaan, and I am going to ad this information which I have just found in sources.--37.162.7.60 (talk) 12:33, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Make deity singular then, if you like. Using "Ya" leaves the average reader scanning the table of contents with no idea what the section is about. Skyerise (talk) 12:43, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

And if you'd like to be taken more seriously, consider creating an account. You have a dynamic IP which means that other editors can't reliably talk to you on your talk page, because it is always changing. Part of collaborative editing is the ability to communicate and be easily communicated with by other editors. Skyerise (talk) 12:46, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

I personally don't equate Yah and YHWH. Neither would most Kabbalists. They are treated as different aspects of deity in Kabbalah, assigned to different Sephirot. Skyerise (talk) 12:49, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

• • • I am personally not an expert of Kabbalah, but, from my general understanding, Judaism gradually identified YHWH as the supreme and only God whatever the origins of this theonym may be. Based on the etymological studies of scholars of the Semitic civilization, I personally see no bugs in the theory that identifies Ia/Yahu/Yahweh as a Western reflection of Enki/Ea. It is noteworthy that in late-antiquity Greek sources YHWH was variously vocalized Iabe, Iabai, Ieuo, Aia and most commonly Iao. Also see the "Jehovah" entry of the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia.--37.162.7.60 (talk) 14:21, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

And yet, from the article, "Some scholars remain skeptical of the theory while explaining how it might have been misinterpreted.[40]" YHWH was a later development, unknown to Abraham, who knew God as El or Yah. It was the position of the temple hierarchy in Jerusalem that YHWH assimilated all the other names of God. In the rural areas things were different, worshiping using locally preferred names. There was a distinct difference between the literate and illiterate practices, with the literate temple folk eventually forcing everyone to agree with their "better" name. And then the Torah in its current form wasn't even written until c. 6th century BCE. It's not the more ancient text it pretends to be... And then Christianity did the same thing with respect to its interpretations of the Hebrew texts. Pretty much it was "agree or die" for significant periods of history, so these "equivalences" foisted upon the world by two different religions predominate, regardless of what the actual truth might be. Skyerise (talk) 21:37, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Missing info about An, Enlil, and Enki

It mystifies me why Enlil is not named and linked in the lead. The lifting of An from Ki by Enlil, and the subsequent division of the rulership of the stars into Equatorial, Northern, and Southern stars ruled respectively by An, Enlil, and Enki is really the first principle of the astronomical knowledge underlying many of these "myths". Just curious because the article otherwise seems long and robust. Perhaps too many mythologists and not enough star people... Skyerise (talk) 21:55, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

proto-hacker

what is a proto-hacker? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.7.152.217 (talk) 18:46, 2004 August 13 (UTC)

prototype of a modern hacker. Yes the above text about enki is quite true. --Konrads 20:31, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

"Great Collapse"

Ah, yes: the 'Great Collapse' of 12,000 B.C. The Barley Market Crash. This entry requires Adult attention. (I'm not the most competent in this area...)--Wetman 13:27, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Inky?

Why does Inky redirect here? I wanted the packman ghost. -Jubeanation

jessica simpson?

Someone should probably remove the Jessica Simpson picture in the 'His portayal' section. Is there an actual picture that goes with the caption or should the whole thing be removed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.170.254.203 (talk) 20:36, 2006 February 25 (UTC)