Talk:Empress Nagako

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This article has previously been nominated to be moved.

Move logs: Empress Nagako
Empress Kōjun

Discussions:

RM, Empress Kōjun → Empress Nagako , Not moved, 13 July 2007, discussion
RM, Empress Kōjun → Empress Nagako , Moved, 16 December 2023, discussion

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles) -- which states, "For Emperor Hirohito, although he too has been posthumously named Emperor Shōwa, it is also acceptable to refer to him as Emperor Hirohito, or just Hirohito, as that is the name by which he continues to be most widely known in the West" -- should the late empress be article-titled "Nagako", since that was her name during life and by which she was most well known? Kojun is a posthumous name, and since Hirohito's article is not titled "Showa" but Hirohito, his wife's article should follow suit, with the most common name known.204.126.250.73 18:22, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly not. Every articles about dead Japanese emperors or empresses should be titled with their posthumous name. "Hirihoto" is an aberation, and not a good example of the rule. An encyclopedia doesn't have to use the "most common name known", but the most correct. Švitrigaila 19:37, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, Wiki states a decided preference for the use of the "most common name." Please read the following passages in Wikipedia:Naming conventions, which is the section we Wikians should be using and which is the foundation for all discussions re naming issues. (1) "This page documents an official policy on the English Wikipedia. It has wide acceptance among editors and is considered a standard that all users should follow." (2) "It is important to note that these are conventions, not rules carved in stone. As Wikipedia grows and changes, some conventions that once made sense may become outdated, and there may be cases where a particular convention is "obviously" inappropriate. But when in doubt, follow convention." (3) "Generally, article naming should prefer what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize." Your comment re "most correct" name runs counter to Wiki convention and established precedent.204.126.250.253 21:19, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Also, if you believe the title of the Hirohito article to be "an abberation", you should state it on the discussion page and express your concerns there about it.204.126.250.253 21:20, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I wrote enough about this issue to restart now a new argument about it. But just two remarks:

If I'm wrong, what about mount Fuji, Seppuku or Elvis Presley? It's obvious that those article must be renamed respectivly Fuji-Yama, Hara-Kiri and Elvis, isn't it? Those names are far more often used. But curiously, Wikipedia, like every encyclopedia, prefers to use the correct terms over the most common ones.
If you're right, are you sure that Nagako is most commonly used? Search "Nagako" with Google, and then Kojun... It may not be relevant because all Nagako and Kojun articles are not about her, but there are more Kojun articles than Nagako articles.

Švitrigaila 18:02, 14 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

- Plain google is an abominable tool; no responsible editor would use it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:09, 15 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Strongly support move. If the Empress Kojun does become the most common name in English, we can move the article when it does. But I doubt it will; Emperor Hirohito does not seem to be being displaced by "Showa Emperor". Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:09, 15 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Hirohito and Akihito are exceptions to the rule, and not a trend or rule unto themselves. Every other Emperor and Empress in Japanese history is named on Wikipedia by their posthumous name. LordAmeth 18:32, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose; Hirohito is a stated exception to the rule, and the name of the page for the empress does not need to go hand-in-hand with it. WP:MOS-JP is a much more specific (and thus more applicable) guideline to use here than WP:NC (CN). Dekimasu よ! 05:55, 18 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. --Stemonitis 06:04, 19 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Need for Citation???[edit]

The article states that, upon Hirohito's death, she became Empress Dowager, but that a citation is needed. Isn't it obvious, when the reigning Emperor dies, his widow becomes the Empress Dowager? It is almost like requiring a citation for the statement, "when a man dies, the woman who was his wife becomes his widow."

John Paul Parks (talk) 12:44, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 16 December 2023[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Page moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Jerium (talk) 23:03, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Empress Kōjun → Empress Nagako – Per WP:COMMONNAME, which is the number one policy when it comes to determining page titles. The Ngram shows "Empress Nagako" to be the overwhelmingly common name for the subject. Almost all of the sources cited within the article also refer to her as Nagako. The situation is pretty much similar to that of her husband Hirohito, whose posthumous title "Emperor Shōwa" is not as common as his personal name. In this instance the prefix "Empress" is needed as the name Nagako itself is not unique; and its inclusion preserves the consistency with the articles on her successors, Empress Michiko and Empress Masako. Keivan.f^Talk 22:49, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nomination. (And also suggest updating article to use Hirohito in preference to Showa.) Wikipedia isn't bound by the whole "change name upon death" tradition here, we should follow the sources. SnowFire (talk) 07:54, 17 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. Just like her husband is Hirohito rather than Emperor Shōwa. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:26, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support per common-name & it appears the English version. GoodDay (talk) 16:00, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.