Talk:Dunwich

Untitled

This article is about the village and former city...

Are we sure it used to be a city? The rest of the article doesn't mention this. 66.92.237.111 03:27, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It used to be a city in the American sense- in that it was a large, important town. It never had a cathedral, so wasn't ever a city in England- or at least I don't think it did- sources seemed confused whether it did or not! Coyote-37 15:48, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Ah, but it did have a cathedral between 630 and 673. See under Bishop of Norwich. 66.92.237.111 02:37, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Dunwich most certainly did not have a cathedral, at least not one as we would know it now. When St Felix established his see here the place of worship would probably have resembled more of a barn structure.

User:Edchilvers

That's certainly what I assumed. But the size of the structure is irrelevant isn't it? It's a cathedral if it has a bishop, regardless of size. Chelmsford cathedral, for instance, is smaller than many large churches I'm familiar with, just as Chelmsford is smaller than many large towns, but is a city because of the cathedral. So does anyone have a definitive answer as to whether or not Dunwich was ever a city in the British sense of the word? Coyote-37 09:13, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

White's 1844 Directory of Suffolk says: "It was the capital of East Anglia, and the See of a Bishop, and formerly held no inconsiderable rank among the commercial cities of the kingdom." I think the Bishop referred to was Felix, in the reign of King Sigebert of the East Angles. Bluewave 09:34, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I have just dug up my 1963 edition of 'Dunwich Story,' a pamphlet by Allan Jobson. In it he refers to Gardiners account of an incident during the demolition of St John the Baptist church when a stone was uncovered to reveal the remains of a man on whose breast stood 'two chalices of course metal.' Jobson suggests that this indicates the remains may have belonged to a Saxon bishop of Dunwich and that therefore St Johns was quite possibly built on the site of the original 'cathedral.' --Edchilvers 17:21, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Seems to me that Dunwich was a city (in the English sense of a Cathedral City, as discussed above)if and only if it was the "unidentified" Dommoc. Dommoc was the city because it had a bishop (and likely his church that would be a (primitive, in our terms) cathedral. If, however, Dommoc was at Walton Castle (see below), then the bishopric and cathedral were at Walton and Dunwich was not a city. See the Dommoc entry in List of former cathedrals in Great Britain ShropshirePilgrim (talk) 23:42, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Dunwich Today

The Dunwich today section isn't accurate- Dunwich Heath is also to the south of the village (as can be seen by http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/main/w-vh/w-visits/w-findaplace/w-dunwichheathandminsmerebeach/w-dunwichheathandminsmerebeach-gettingthere.htm ). I'm going to re write, to describe it as between those places, with Dunwich Heath and Minsmere as nearby. Enlightened Bystander 20:53, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Possible copyvio

The January 14 edit seems to by copied directly from a BBC article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/7187239.stm "Dunwich was the capital of East Anglia 1,500 years ago. Its decline began in 1286 when a sea surge hit the East Anglian coast and it was eventually reduced through coastal erosion to the village it is today." Hugo Dufort (talk) 20:16, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Citations

There are too many citation needed marks to make the text easy to read. A reference to the Domesday Book surely needs no further citation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.97.16.53 (talk) 18:32, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Dunwich and ghost stories.

I've removed a good faith edit by 194.75.238.145 as, if anywhere, the item needs to be in a short section on fiction and definitely not in the introduction. -see lead. A citation is needed for apparent confusion between Dunwich and Felixstowe and there needs to be some indication of Joseph's notability e.g. an article on him, as otherwise it appears to be advertising, particularly as the book isn't due for publication for some months! JRPG (talk) 09:12, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

2011 Census

For some strange reason, the Office for National Statistics has included a good chunk of the civil parish of Westleton in the area for Dunwich CP, hence the sudden jump in population. I have a feeling it is a mistake on the part of the ONS! Sumorsǣte (talk) 09:18, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

The Dunwich Horror

I know someone’s mentioned adding a relevant section to the entry on H. P. Lovecraft’s The Dunwich Horror, but thought I’d raise it, here.

I’m fairly certain I’d read — lord knows where — that Lovecraft had lifted the name for the village in The Dunwich Horror, from it’s real world equivalent: this particular village.

Is their anyway we can find a reference for this, and factor it in, somewhere … ?

Thanks …  Cuddy2977 (talk) 15:04, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

Algernon Blackwood mentions the British Dunwich in at least one of his stories, and Lovecraft was a fan of Blackwood. I'd bet that's where he took it from. If there's any proof of it, it's probably in Lovecraft's letters, but I haven' read them. 2001:14BA:2BEA:C600:55A7:6490:76C6:DE50 (talk) 12:44, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

References

Origins

Many historians now prefer to locate Dommoc at Walton Castle... The Domesday Book of 1086 describes it as possessing three churches...

Does this relate to Dommoc or Dunwich? If they were not one and the same place, what were the origins of Dunwich? Valetude (talk) 16:13, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Contradictions

I struggled to align some of these sentences, which appeared to my eyes to be contradictory:

In the Anglo-Saxon period, Dunwich was the capital of the Kingdom of the East Angles but the harbour and most of the town have since disappeared due to coastal erosion. ... Dunwich is possibly connected with the lost Anglo-Saxon placename Dommoc.
— Lead

Since the 15th century, Dunwich has frequently been identified with Dommoc ... Years later, antiquarians would even describe Dunwich as being the "former capital of East Anglia". However, many historians now prefer to locate Dommoc at Walton Castle, which was the site of a Saxon shore fort.
— History

A fierce storm in 1328 also swept away the entire village of Newton, a few miles up the coast. Another large storm in 1347 swept some 400 houses into the sea. The Grote Mandrenke around 16 January 1362 finally destroyed much of the remainder of the town. ... The loss of "a busy port to ... 14th century storms that swept whole parishes into the sea" is an urban myth. It appears that the port developed as a sheltered harbour where the Dunwich River entered the North Sea. Coastal processes including storms caused the river to shift its exit 2.5 miles (4 km) north to Walberswick, at the River Blyth. The town of Dunwich lost its raison d'etre and was largely abandoned.
— History

All emphasis is mine, but that feels like there's 2 issues here:

1. whether or not Dunwich was Dommoc and/or the capital of East Anglia; and
2. whether or not Dunwich declined due to storms sweeping it away or due to shifts in the river (and, implicitly, whether or not the urban myth claim can be backed up)

I don't really know anything about Dunwich, so wouldn't do a great job at researching either point; hence the drive-by tagging. — OwenBlacker (talk; please {{ping}} me in replies) 08:44, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

I just noticed this tab still open from when I was reading at the time may have some information to help clarify the apparent contradictions: History at Dunwich.org.uk. I hope that's useful. — OwenBlacker (talk; please {{ping}} me in replies) 18:29, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

There are MORE than 2 issues!

1. "Dommoc," or "Dommoc-ceastre", was the name of the place where (as Bede etc relate) Bishop Felix seated the original Episcopal See of the Kingdom of East Anglia around 630 AD. While this was long believed to have been at Dunwich, that identification is not certain, and the alternative claim for Walton, Suffolk (near Felixstowe), where there was a Roman shore-fort, now has a good academic pedigree as well, so that the question remains undecided. "Dommoc" need not have been at either of these places.
2. Archaeological evidence (of a more-than-52 hectare township with street grid with dense housing and industrial quarters) favours Ipswich as the principal trade centre of the Kingdom of East Anglia from the 7th-9th centuries, and I do not know of any comparable rival claim for Dunwich, even though, the site being lost to the sea, the physical evidence is not available.
3. The "urban myth" remark overstates its own case. If there has been a tendency to imagine a large lost city, then it is true that the poetic name "splendid city" for Dunwich does not have anything to do with "city status" in the modern sense but is to evoke the misty vision, hovering just over or under the waves, of a busy harbour and ship-building town with various church towers, their bells ringing merrily, and religious buildings and a density of housing and population, which (like Aldeburgh, Easton Ness, Covehithe, Walton at Felixstowe, etc, and like Holderness in Yorkshire) had a habit of subsiding into the sea. If there is any myth involved, it is an echo of the myth of Cockaigne, with a dash of Brigadoon or La cathédrale engloutie, and submerged villages under reservoirs. On the other hand, it is unlikely that the Charter and seal granted by King John in 1215 (see Proc. Suffolk Institute of Archaeol., XXIII Part 3 (1939), pp. 230-35 and plate) was so granted to a non-existent Borough, when it had burgesses and gild-house (hanse), its own rights of justice and customs, freemen with soc and sac and toll and team and infangethef: and a cursory glance at the indices of the Close Rolls, Patent Rolls, Feet of Fines, etc, and at the documentation of the religious houses there, leave no doubt as to its scale and importance between the 11th and 15th centuries, as historians of Suffolk fully recognize. The former existence and importance of the great harbour town of Dunwich is not in question...Eebahgum (talk) 14:20, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Those xxxxxx church bells

A popular local legend says that, at certain tides, church bells can still be heard from beneath the waves.

Every time any village is lost to the sea, this old chestnut pops up. I heard it said of a Welsh reservoir. Maybe time to give it a decent burial. Valetude (talk) 22:20, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Dark heart

I removed the "Folklore" section about Eva and her heart. There's nothing verifiable in it. The original at Dark heart of Dunwich was plugging an am dram play, 'Dunwich: a ghost story', and shouldn't have been merged here. We've been hosting their fiction for 11 years. Fences&Windows 22:49, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

Greyfriars (section Churches and other major buildings) "survived the Dissolution"?

I am baffled by the statement that Greyfriars "survived the the Dissolution of the Monasteries in 1538" as this is ambiguous and makes no sense now that the building is ruined and uninhabited. Does this imply the foundation was never dissolved and the friars carried on living there. It must have come to an end at some point. The whole description of Greyfriars is uncited.Cloptonson (talk) 08:08, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

It says "survived to the Dissolution of the Monasteries in 1538" - i.e. until 1538, not beyond it. Page would probably be an ideal initial source - you can find it online here. I'll see if I can get to it at some point, but it's not the sort of thing that's really in any doubt. I think there's probably a Time Team report that will mention it in some detail, and I imagine the Suffolk Heritage Explorer will have plenty on it as well Blue Square Thing (talk) 08:24, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, my reading mistake, glasses were tickling me while I read the article.Cloptonson (talk) 08:38, 22 October 2023 (UTC)