Talk:Desert castles

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Please use the plural in the title: Desert castles![edit]

In the singular it makes no sense. It's a category relating to a multitude of sites, like "Loire castles", "Rhine castles" etc. It's being used in the plural when naming the category, only when discussing a specific qasr is it used in the singular. Thank you.Arminden (talk) 22:15, 22 December 2015 (UTC)ArmindenArminden (talk) 22:15, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is obviously an article on Jordanian desert castles, I propose renaming it into an appropriate form...Makeandtoss (talk) 23:46, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Agree - renamed Desert castles of Jordan - I know some are over the borders, but this is a clearer name Johnbod (talk) 02:12, 23 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Johnbod: I just noticed the external languages section, they all seem to talk about Jordan but none have Jordan in their title... Did we miss something? Makeandtoss (talk) 23:38, 23 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Johnbod: Yes, you did miss something :-) The difference is between popular tourism advertisement, largely irrelevant to WP, and science (history, archaeology), which is very much relevant. This Umayyad qasr is typical to Bilad ash-Sham, which includes far more than modern Jordan. It is ridiculous to follow the lead of a national ministry of tourism in defining the scope of an encyclopedic article, even if others made the same mistake on various non-English WP pages. Don't take my word for it,google for "Umayyad Desert Castles". One of the foremost specialists,the French archaeologist Denis Genequand, did widespread studies on the topic- see just the beginning of the review at [1]. Cheres, Arminden (talk) 17:16, 24 December 2015 (UTC)ArmindenArminden (talk) 17:16, 24 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I know. But the current title is a good deal better known, and I think appropriate under WP:COMMONNAME. By all means do a redirect, or launch an RM if you want. Note that the current "partial list" only includes sites in Jordan. Johnbod (talk) 18:36, 24 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Johnbod: Sorry, the Middle East is such a disgustingly tribal place, full of provincial-minded "local patriots", that I see zero reason for giving them any ill-chosen support. But that's even secondary, since this is an objectively wrong distinction, like separating Bavarian from Suabian Baroque on the WP level. THERE IS NO SEPARATE PAGE ON "UMAYYAD DESERT CASTELS/QUSUR/QASRS", if there were one, THEN your argument would make good sense. For now, THIS IS THE ONLY SUCH PAGE, WICH MAKES IT THE RIGHT PAGE; the Jordanian d.c. should be one (major) paragraph here, but not more. Please do reconsider. I am not doing more than editing exiting articles, but then I'm trying to keep a certain level. If you do arbiter issues, then please consider going beyond the lowest common denominator. Thank you and merry Xmas! Arminden (talk) 19:13, 24 December 2015 (UTC)ArmindenArminden (talk) 19:13, 24 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Needs to be thoroughly redone[edit]

It does contain almost everything it needs to, but most of the quoted sources are not available online (anymore?), one or two are not academic, and are quoted in a very unreliable way:

combining two sources in one quote is not OK (Petersen plus Meyers)
the Rough Guide is only OK if nothing better is available & is not searchable (anymore?)
Petersen: p. 239 doesn't contain anything relevant, and p. 296 only focuses on architecture, has nothing on purpose, structures outside the main building, etc. There are PDFs available online, but I'm not sure about the copyright.
Ettinghausen & Grabar: p. 650 also wrong (if 2nd ed., the only one accessible online)
Meyers p. 241 prob. wrong too, I guess p. 271 was meant (judging by the few snippets accessible online)

I moved over the material "parked" at Qasr Burqu'. I don't know, maybe such large paragraphs with general info on desert castles are parked also on other individual pages from the time before this one was created. Arminden (talk) 13:52, 30 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Kennedy & Riley: of any use?[edit]

"Kennedy, D. and , D., Rome's Desert Frontiers, Routledge, 2012, pp 8-9l provides a comprehensive list of castles, forts, mosques and other major edifices."

Hurray! I just found it online, although with very few accessible pages. A different edition (2004, not 2012). But still:

a) Sloppy citation - only part of the title + 2 typos. The complete title reads "Rome's Desert Frontier from the Air". "Frontier" (sing.), not "Frontiers". What pages? Now it reads "8-9L" with small-case L.

If we don't remove it, here is the citation with the complete title and all necessary details for the only edition better searchable on Google Books (pages still to be filled in): ^[1]

b) How is this source relevant? Does an editor hold a hard copy or eBook? Did they find additional, useful Umayyad desert castles in the book? Kennedy has done absolutely amazing work, but:

c) Most of the book is not searchable online.

d) Its topic is: Roman sites across several Arab countries, which overlaps with our topic only in very few cases (Roman castra rebuilt by the Umayyads as qusur). Does it deal with such sites, or is it mainly a book of aerial photography with general comments on Roman limes fortification types? Does it define & describe the Umayyad qusur developed from Roman forts? It might be the source of the wrongly added Qasr el-Feifeh, which I had to remove - but maybe also of useful desert castles from elsewhere, I don't know.

e) IN ANY CASE: the presentation, "a comprehensive list of castles, forts, mosques and other major edifices", is not useful, confusing and rather misleading, as we're not dealing here with the wide range of such structures, but strictly with Umayyad desert castles. In Arabic many ruins can be called "Qasr XYZ", as "qasr" simply means fortified building, "castle", of which there are many that are not in any way part of the Umayyad desert castle category. So please, careful with such a "comprehensive list" nobody else can consult.

References

^ Kennedy, David L.; Riley, Derrick (2004) [1990]. Rome's Desert Frontier from the Air. Taylor & Francis. ISBN 0-203-48103-8. Retrieved 2 November 2020.

Arminden (talk) 22:36, 2 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

PS: BronHiggs, hi, I looked up the edit history and I think it was your contribution. Could you please go through my questions? Thanks. Arminden (talk) 22:41, 2 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

He's been blocked since 2018. I've moved that source to "Further reading". The 2012 edition has most of the intro available on Google Books, but only that. By now there is a lot online about all the qasr sites, so not really needed anymore. Whoever has the book gets to see some great aerial photography though. Arminden (talk) 21:06, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Only Umayyad desert castles (qusur) belong here[edit]

There are now several structures listed here, which don't seem to belong. I marked them with "dubious" tags. Any qasr that isn't an UMAYYAD desert castle doesn't belong here. Arminden (talk) 19:11, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education assignment: Art 353 Art of the Islamic World[edit]

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 16 January 2024 and 14 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Odambrosia21 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Ccreadingtime (talk) 17:58, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[Air-1] Kennedy, David L.; Riley, Derrick (2004) [1990]. Rome's Desert Frontier from the Air. Taylor & Francis. ISBN 0-203-48103-8. Retrieved 2 November 2020.

[1]