Talk:Derek Dougan

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Dropped for playing on All-Ireland XI?[edit]

Dougan maintained that IFA President Harry Cavan had instructed manager Terry Neill not to pick him for Northern Ireland because he played in the "Shamrock Rovers XI". I have undone (again) the following addition, which is original research.

However the facts make this unlikely, since Dougan's international career was already over, seeing as he had not been picked for any of Northern Ireland's previous five games. Moreover, he had failed to find the net in any of what were to be his final 10 international appearances. Further, although he made 30 League starts from 42 for Wolves the following season, managing a credible 10 goals, he was now in the twilight of his career, so that he retired from playing completely at the age of 37 after making just three starts in the 1974-75 season, less than two years after the Brazil match.

I appreciate that it is would be wrong of Wikipedia to seem to endorse an unsupported allegation such as that which Dougan made, but it is also wrong to attempt to disprove the allegation in this manner. I have tweaked the currrent wording so that, I hope, the article states what Dougan asserted without agreeing or disagreeing with his assertion. Based on the facts in the article and the above excerpt, it is plausible that Dougan's non-selection was for footballing reasons and his conspiracy theory was all in his head. However, it is nowhere near certain. I don't want to start a battle of original research, but just to cast doubt on the above assertions:

  • "had not been picked for any of Northern Ireland's previous five games" -- I don't know aat what point Dougan allegedly clashed with the IFA, but planning for the Brazil game began in 1972, and Dougan's last game was in March 73. Four of the five matches he missed were in May, when preparations for the Brazil game were nearing completion, and the hypothesized decision to ostracize him might already have been taken.
  • "failed to find the net in any of what were to be his final 10 international appearances" -- while Martin O'Neill was the up-and-coming striker, Dougan had played in other positions and was captain, so could plausibly have been accommodated elsewhere, or on the bench.

I make these points not to begin a debate here about which theory is correct; that is not for Wikipedia to decide. I only mention them to show that attempting to prove something from first principles is impractical in a short article; that's why it's forbidden. We can only state the agreed facts and leave readers to decide whether to believe one side or the other or keep an open mind. It would certainly be relevant and useful to add citations along the following lines, if these come to light:

  • A newspaper report from 1973 mentioning Dougan's being dropped from the NI side and offering either
  • an official explanation from the manager or the IFA, or
  • some informed speculation from a journalist (whether favouring the conspiracy theory or not)
  • A later quote from Harry Cavan or Terry Neill responding to Dougan's allegation

jnestorius(talk) 17:35, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Shamrock Rovers[edit]

Is everybody sure about Dougan´s 11 aps. / 11 goals for this club in 1973? Is it not more likely he played only that one Shamrock Rovers Ireland XI vs. Brazil match and, in later years, XI became 11 in people´s memories? He couldn´t have been there for a longer spell anyway, being with Wolves all the time. -- Best, SpVggLieth (talk) 23:36, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I would query if this match should be included in his club career totals as it was a friendly/exhibition match and these types of games are traditionally ignored for domestic purposes. Nifg 16:39, 2 January 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nifg (talk • contribs)

External links modified[edit]

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Assessment comment[edit]

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Derek Dougan/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

I have classified this article as a start as it describes Dougan's career in a reasonable level of detail. However, the article does need to be sourced. Capitalistroadster 02:29, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Last edited at 02:29, 26 June 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 13:15, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

GA Review[edit]

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Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Derek Dougan/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: MWright96 (talk · contribs) 20:30, 21 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Will review tomorrow. MWright96 (talk) 20:30, 21 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:

Blackburn Rovers[edit]

  • "a 4–0 win over Fulham, which began a sequence of five wins and a draw from Rovers's first six matches," - reptition of win(s)
  • "the dourness of the club matched that of the town.I " - needs to be spaced out

Peterbrough United[edit]

  • "The move did though have it's benefits" - its

Leicester City[edit]

  • ""Foxes" to a seventh-place finish." - I think team would be better than the club's nickname

Wolverhampton Wanderers[edit]

  • "who quit the game to become a full-time Jehovah's Witness volunteer." - left
  • Delink Portugal, Hungary, Italy and the Netherlands per WP:OVERLINK
  • "Spurs" goalkeeper Pat Jennings putting in an excellent performance " - exellent is NPOV
  • "but managed to deny Leeds United the championship by beating Leeds on the final day of the season to prevent them from reaching Derby County's point tally," - reptition of Leeds

Media career[edit]

  • Do we know what was the name of the half-hour show he presented on BBC Radio Birmingham?

Chairmanship of Wolves[edit]

References[edit]

On hold until the above points have been actioned. MWright96 (talk) 08:20, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Have acted on them. Thanks!--EchetusXe 11:06, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well done. Can promote to GA class. MWright96 (talk) 11:21, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Red Links[edit]

Links in red for seasons still untidy, will attend to them at some point unless someone else has a fast way to do it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.152.107.52 (talk) 15:21, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Blackburn quote[edit]

A quotation from Mr Dougan taken from a reputable biography of the subject has now been removed five times over the last month by the same new editor – last diff HERE, to show what we're on about – whom I've invited to discuss the matter here. It's been restored three times by a main editor of the article, whom I'm about to invite to discuss here, and twice by me. AFAIK, I've never edited this page before. Personally, I think it's better with the quote in there, as per below.

The quote illustrates in Mr Dougan's own pretty graphic words how unhappy he felt at Blackburn. There's no original research in there. It shows why, despite having just scored the winning goal in the FA Cup semi-final, he handed in a transfer request before the final. A transfer request in those circumstances would make the reader ask "why on earth would he do that?" The quote answers that question. And it precedes another quote, to the effect that the transfer request was a self-indulgent mistake, and him withdrawing it and staying at Blackburn for another year.

Other views invited... cheers, Struway2 (talk) 17:30, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I am not 'anti-Blackburn'!--EchetusXe 18:04, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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External links modified[edit]

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Minor legal issues[edit]

The article reports on minor issues such as "driving carelessly" and not very substantial, rather familliy matters he has been cleared of. I suggest they can be cleared from these items, as they don't really provide anything of substance. I request further input from interested parties. cheers, Oalexander (talk) 04:04, 15 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I agree the driving carelessly is too minor to warrant inclusion.--EchetusXe 11:29, 15 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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