Talk:Dave MacDonald

Untitled

Edited article --Eagle 19:39, 1 December 2005 (UTC) Hello, I see that you have placed tone and neutrality tags on this page, but did so without citing an example of your concerns. While others created this page in 2005 I have been an active contributor in recent years; adding photos, references, links and other general information in an effort to give Wiki users insight into the racing career of Dave MacDonald. To the best of my knowledge all contributions I’ve made personally to this page have been accurate, so I’m not sure if your neutrality concerns are directed at me or others. I have responded to the tone tag by redoing the entire page, beginning with the introduction paragraph, and formatting it more of a bullet point factual style instead of a storytelling style. I also removed most of the superlatives which I agree tended to add a “boasting” flavor to his accomplishments and achievements.

Sincerely — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vintagesportscars (talk • contribs) 17:21, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Tone and neutrality issues

Hi, I've been informed to make my concerns on the tone and neutrality of this page clear. I note that some of the puffs were dealt with but a large number remain. So here are a few (not all) points -

• The entire article is full of statements which might come under possible trivia. More importantly, they're all uncited, so it's difficult to gauge the relevance, if any, of the statements, with respect to giving due weight to every topic. Adding tag.
• It's possible though unlikely that there be absolutely no criticism (or any statements not praising the article subject be present; so someone should look into finding more of such sources. (Please note I havent checked through authenticity of any sources)
• "road racing champion" is non neutral. Even Michael Schumacher is referred as a racer.
• "Fiery change" - Unencyclopediac tone
• Change in fuel type is mentioned in lede but there is hardly one line about it later on. Also uncited.
• "All too brief" - Unencyclopediac
• 'In a 2008 interview with Hot Rod, Carroll Shelby said, "I think Dave had more raw talent probably than any race driver I ever saw"' - Fact mentioned only in lede and no mention elsewhere. Undue.
• "MacDonald was born in El Monte, California and died at the age of 27." - Non problematic but Please dont club these two facts together. It's awkwardly phrased and may give a wrong impression if someone doesnt read carefully.
• "edged Bondurant by a scant 2 seconds" and "capture his first ever" - Unencyclopediac.
• "MacDonald’s style of drifting through turns at full speed made him a crowd favorite and was dubbed "Master of Oversteer" by the press." - Uncited and probably undue.
• "the two biggest and richest road races in America at the time" - Uncited and definitely undue/unencyclopediac
• " Wood Brothers Racing's famous #21 car," - Famous? Who said it was famous? Unencyclopediac.
• "MacDonald's accomplishments were recoginized by" - Not particularly problematic but puff writing-style
• "NASCAR.com calls the 1964 Daytona 500 lineup the "Greatest Field in NASCAR History"" - Is this really relevant? I'm siding with undue.
• "King Richard Petty dominanted that day" - Unencyclopediac tone
• "piliting a King Cobra to victory" - Unencyclopediac tone
• Afterward veteran motor sports journalist and editor of National Speed Sport News Chris Economaki wrote "Dave MacDonald of El Monte stamped himself as one of today's road racing greats" - Possibly undue
• "giving the _____ its first win" - Are these relevant or necessary? Cars have newer models and racers win using newer models. It shouldn't be added this selectively unless there is some reason why that model winning it's first race was significant.
• "had become one of America's top drivers" - Uncited and possibly undue
• "revolutionary cars" - Unencyclopediac
• "They were far ahead of their time" - Source says "car that predicted future tech in several ways". Without even checking the reliablity of the source, it's bad and unencylopediac.
• "Popular driver" - Uncited, maybe undue
• The entire "Noteworthy" section ought not to be there. The relevant sections where the "noteworthy" parts belong are enough for the details. The lede is supposed to summarise the entire article. There is no need for a separate Noteworthy section.
• "MacDonald distinguished himself as the man who drove each of the legendary Shelby Cobras — Cobra Roadster, King Cobra, King Cobra-Lang Cooper and Daytona Cobra Coupe — to their first-ever victories." - Unencyclopediac, Uncited, Undue.
• The homepage in external links is a "dedication website". Unofficial, therefore undue. Delete.

It is because of all of these concerns (which I find by just a read-through of the article) that the article is non-neutral and non-encyclopediac in tone and the tags are justified until atleast all these issues are fixed and someone else competent to look through the details thinks that the article does not have these concerns anymore. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 23:09, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

I will review your list of suggestions to improve the page and make any appropriate changes. And balance on a topic or individual is good, but I disagree with your approach that calls for users to go around and actively solicit critical statements about someone. I also want to point out that your tone is condescending and antagonistic, and exactly the kind of thing that starts flame wars on Wiki, so I hope that our future interactions are more civilized and less unnecessarily combative. Vintagesportscars (talk) 20:31, 18 January 2014 (UTC)vintagesportscars

It’s unlikely you’re a race fan theoriginalsoni, but I’d imagine close to 100% of people arriving at Dave MacDonald’s Wiki page are – and therefore explaining the historical significance of Carroll Shelby’s rare King Cobra racer seems unnecessary - on this page anyway. Ironically, just minutes ago, that King Cobra sold for $1.5M at the Barrett-Jackson auction. Dave MacDonald’s name was mentioned during the sale. Vintagesportscars (talk) 02:03, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

More than half of these statements we’re not contributions made by me personally but I will nonetheless attempt to address them individually. (In bold)

• The entire article is full of statements which might come under possible trivia. More importantly, they're all uncited, so it's difficult to gauge the relevance, if any, of the statements, with respect to giving due weight to every topic. Adding tag.
• It's possible though unlikely that there be absolutely no criticism (or any statements not praising the article subject be present; so someone should look into finding more of such sources. (Please note I havent checked through authenticity of any sources)

I will not personally seek out and post derogatory remarks about this subject or any other. You've already put the call out - so be it

• "road racing champion" is non neutral. Even Michael Schumacher is referred as a racer.

I don’t believe all wiki pages need to be written to mimic Michael Schumacher’s page. Dave MacDonald was in fact a road racing champion.

• "Fiery change" - Unencyclopediac tone

Did u mean fiery crash? It was the most horrific accident in Indy 500 history and I believe fiery crash describes it accurately and does not cross to an unencyclopediac tone.

• Change in fuel type is mentioned in lede but there is hardly one line about it later on. Also uncited.

Now cited - and I believe the three lines already dedicated to this topic is sufficient

• "All too brief" - Unencyclopediac

Removed.

• 'In a 2008 interview with Hot Rod, Carroll Shelby said, "I think Dave had more raw talent probably than any race driver I ever saw"' - Fact mentioned only in lede and no mention elsewhere. Undue.

Quote is cited, and do not feel a need to elaborate later in the page.

• "MacDonald was born in El Monte, California and died at the age of 27." - Non problematic but Please dont club these two facts together. It's awkwardly phrased and may give a wrong impression if someone doesnt read carefully.

Removed one of the two facts entirely

• "edged Bondurant by a scant 2 seconds" and "capture his first ever" - Unencyclopediac.

Rewritten to - The following day he edged Bondurant to capture his first victory. It was after all the subject’s first ever victory, certainly a small amount of tone is acceptable here.

• "MacDonald’s style of drifting through turns at full speed made him a crowd favorite and was dubbed "Master of Oversteer" by the press." - Uncited and probably undue.

Cited. And this was the subject’s known nickname. Even today many motoring/auto related sites credit him as the original drifter

• "the two biggest and richest road races in America at the time" - Uncited and definitely undue/unencyclopediac

Disagree here, but now cited.

• " Wood Brothers Racing's famous #21 car," - Famous? Who said it was famous? Unencyclopediac.

Anybody that knows anything about NASCAR. The Wood Bros #21 car – as it’s referred to - is one of the 2 or 3 most recognized NASCAR racers in history. U can google it, or wiki it even. Regardless, removed “famous”

• "MacDonald's accomplishments were recognized by" - Not particularly problematic but puff writing-style

We agree theoriginalsoni, not problematic and is in fact – fact.

• "NASCAR.com calls the 1964 Daytona 500 lineup the "Greatest Field in NASCAR History"" - Is this really relevant? I'm siding with undue.

Possibly undue, but relevant as it highlights MacDonald’s versatility; he was primarily a sports car racer and he outdueled all but 9 of the NASCAR, USRRC and USAC circuit’s best drivers

• "King Richard Petty dominated that day" - Unencyclopediac tone

Rewritten

• "piloting a King Cobra to victory" - Unencyclopediac tone

Rewritten.

• Afterward veteran motor sports journalist and editor of National Speed Sport News Chris Economaki wrote "Dave MacDonald of El Monte stamped himself as one of today's road racing greats" - Possibly undue

Econamaki was one of the most respected motor sports journalist of our time and I believe a quote of this nature is warranted on subject’s page.

• "giving the _____ its first win" - Are these relevant or necessary? Cars have newer models and racers win using newer models. It shouldn't be added this selectively unless there is some reason why that model winning it's first race was significant.

This was addressed in detail in an earlier response to you (above). I believe it’s an important fact and should be left on page in current form.

• "had become one of America's top drivers" - Uncited and possibly undue

Several newspaper and magazine articles posted on davemacdonald.net state exactly that, and corroborated by Chris Economaki’s statement.

• "revolutionary cars" - Unencyclopediac

I tend to agree however I’ve seen this statement (and the one below) reprinted in dozens of publications and even listed on many wiki pages when writing about Mickey Thompson’s cars or the Indy 500. It is the general conclusion of research done by historians and discussed at length and Indy forums.

• "They were far ahead of their time" - Source says "car that predicted future tech in several ways". Without even checking the reliablity of the source, it's bad and unencylopediac.

See above.

• "Popular driver" - Uncited, maybe undue

By all contemporary accounts, Eddie Sachs was a popular driver both to the public and fellow professionals. I did not contribute this statement, and considering the circumstances, will not remove it now but can add citations as I come across them again.

• The entire "Noteworthy" section ought not to be there. The relevant sections where the "noteworthy" parts belong are enough for the details. The lede is supposed to summarise the entire article. There is no need for a separate Noteworthy section.

I did not create this section but have contributed to it and personally like it. I’ve seen many wiki pages that contain similar noteworthy sections and with varying degrees of redundancy. No one in 8 years before u has complained about this section and I don’t believe it adds an element of clutter or re-read to the subject’s page.

• "MacDonald distinguished himself as the man who drove each of the legendary Shelby Cobras — Cobra Roadster, King Cobra, King Cobra-Lang Cooper and Daytona Cobra Coupe — to their first-ever victories." - Unencyclopediac, Uncited, Undue.

Rewritten. These are some of the most historic race cars ever built and if one man has driven them all to their first wins, it’s relevant. Just today, the original Shelby Cobra Daytona Coupe (CSX2287) that Dave MacDonald drove to its first win - was the very first car recognized in the Historic Vehicle Association’s National Historic Vehicle Register. This newly created register is a joint venture between HVA and the U.S. Department of the Interior.

• The homepage in external links is a "dedication website". Unofficial, therefore undue. Delete.

The subject’s website contains hundreds of scanned period newspaper and magazine articles that contain relevant, official and factual information about the subject. The website is actually a citeable source for many other drivers.Vintagesportscars (talk) 07:08, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Completed major edit of subject's page today. Added several citations and rewrote much of the content in effort to address neutrality and tone concerns tagged by theoriginalsoni. I believe this page comfortably conforms to Wiki's suggested guidelines. Vintagesportscars (talk) 00:11, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

sections in dispute have been rewritten to an encyclopedic and neutral tone. Citations added and tags removed. Vintagesportscars (talk) 06:14, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Jim Clark's telling Macdonald to walk away from the car

I don't have a page number, but according to "Black Noon: The Year They stopped the Indy 500" Clark probably never said that. The book, which I'm reading on my Kindle, I think says the quite first appeared in 2004, and according to other racers it doesn't sound like something he would have said.--108.85.148.69 (talk) 23:32, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

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Significant Edits

I have removed significant portions of the article which were un-cited, irrelevant, extraneous, non-neutral, and/or were covered in other portions of the article. I revised some language to be less subjective and/or colloquial. I added an infobox with MacDonald's NASCAR and USAC/IndyCar information. RegalZ8790 (talk) 15:37, 22 August 2023 (UTC)