Talk:Culture of the United States Marine Corps/Archive 4

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"Former Marine acceptable use.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

In Marine Corps Culture, "Former Marine" is the term used for former Marines.

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I'm not sure why someone keeps reverting the changes concerning the acceptable use of the term "Former Marine". I served my time and became a Former Marine before the editor in question was born. Other of my changes have been reverted a few times by this young pup. He had never heard of a term I happened to use because it was in use ten or twenty years before he put on the uniform. Sometimes it is best to put aside one's personal opinions on what is logical, and listen to those Marines who went before. If you want references, here are a few...

From http://www.marcorsyscom.usmc.mil/sites/mcub/PAGES/Appropriate%20Wear%20of%20the%20Uniforms.htm Regulations governing the wear of uniforms by active duty/retired, former Marines and civilians serving with the Corps, Source: Chapter 11 MCO P1020.3G, Marine Corps Uniform Regulations, Basic guidance (Active Duty/Reservist/Retiree and Former Marines) – As a former Marine there are some restrictions: You must have served during a time of war (i.e. earned the National Defense Medal during your time in service) and received an honorable discharge to wear the uniform. Events you are restricted to wearing it to: --Military funerals, memorial services, weddings, and inaugurals. --Parades on national or state holidays; or other parades or ceremonies of a patriotic character in which any active or reserve United States military unit are taking part. Wearing of the uniform or any part thereof at any other time or for any purpose is prohibited.

From http://www.devildogs.cc/unofficial/f.shtml "Former Marine: An acceptable term for a Marine who is not currently serving, but make no mistake, that person is a Marine and always will be a Marine."

From http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/01/a_world_at_war_exmarine_bob_on.html "The only 'Ex-Marines' are ones that have been kicked out out of the Corps. We use the term Former Marine. But all Marines, current and former, know 'Once a Marine, Always a Marine.'"

I'm changing it back to reflect that "Former Marine" is acceptable use. Eastcote (talk) 13:01, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

First off, your personal experience means about zero on Wikipedia. Editors are expected to cite reliable sources, not go based off of thier own thought processes (many of which I have proven wrong). The latter two sources you've provided are not considered reliable sources: a blog and some random USMC fansite are not good sources for an encyclopedic topic. The first reference you've provided is also wildly outdated. The correct publication to cite is MCO P1020.34G w/ch1-5, and I couldn't find the term "former Marine" listed. Also note that the reference currently cited indicated that the Commandnat specifically stated that the term "former Marine" should be avoided.

Second, it's a logical fallacy anyway. Why would "former Marine" be acceptable if "ex-Marine" isn't?

Lastly, I would drop the condescending attitude if I were you. You may or may not be older and more experienced (I wouldn't doubt a bit if you were some jackass who has never worn a uniform, or more likely, gotten kicked out), but that certainly does not make you right. I'd also like to point out that your editing experince on Wikipedia is limited compared to mine, if you feel that your logic has merit, you should defer to the experienced judegement. Irredgardless, the opinion that makes sense should prevail. I've provided logical arguments, you've thus far only provided the opinion that I should shut up and go with your opinion. bahamut0013^words_deeds 16:15, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

We are talking about "former Marine" as acceptable use. You are not a former Marine. You are still in uniform. There are thousands of us out here who have been told by the Corps for years, and have been telling people for years, that we are "former Marines". You don't like the term, and you have a right not to be addressed by it when you get out. The reference you cite above (MCO P1020.34G dtd 31 Mar 03) states: "Former Marines who are discharged honorably or under honorable conditions from the Marine Corps may wear their uniform while going from the place of discharge to their home of record, within three months after discharge." The reference in the paragraph in question is Corps Business by David Freedman. Perhaps a Commandant's white letter is mentioned in the book, but the implication in the article is that it discusses use of the Marine's last earned rank - not the use of "former Marine". And please don't disparage my service...I'm not disparaging your service, only your closed-mindedness... There are many things that happened before your time. Eastcote (talk) 18:45, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

You are missing my point. The Commandant stated in that white letter that the term of adress "Former Marine" should be avoided for the same reason that "Ex-Marine" is not acceptable. If you want to call yourself that, go right ahead, but that doesn't make it acceptable to anyone else. You can be wrong and not even know it! The references I've provided don't specifically say the term "former Marine" anywhere. Also, I'm not disparaging your service, I'm simply not going to accept a claim from someone over the internet at face value (see Essjay controversy). bahamut0013^words_deeds 04:02, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

The single reference you provided a link to (MCO P1020.34G dtd 31 Mar 03) mentions "former Marine" at least twice: 11004 - LAWS PERTAINING TO THE UNIFORM: 3b, "Former Marines who are discharged honorably or under honorable conditions from the Marine Corps may wear their uniform while going from the place of discharge to their home of record, within three months after discharge." ...and 3c, "Former Marines not on active duty who served honorably in time of war in the Marine Corps may bear the title, and as authorized by regulations prescribed by the President, wear the uniform of the highest grade held during that war." Do you have a link to Commandant Gray's white letter you reference? I can't find a copy, but the HQMC.net website references it, and says: "Marines and those familiar with Marine Corps tradition will often object to the use of the term "ex-Marine," Marines are inculcated with the Marine ethos "Once a Marine, always a Marine." Former Marine refers to an individual that completed their service and has received an honorable or general discharge from the service. Marines who have retired are commonly called "retired Marines", "Sir/Ma'am" - out of respect, "Marine" - which they still are, or according to the "Commandant's White letters" from Commandant General Gray until present - by their earned rank." http://www.hqmc.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=24&Itemid=29 My point is that it is purely your opinion that it shouldn't be used. I have provided Marine Corps sources citing its use, and there are many more unofficial examples of its use. Eastcote (talk) 04:58, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

OK, I didn't see that. I must have missed it. I'll cede the point with apologies (oops). bahamut0013^words_deeds 05:37, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Marine Corps Commandant clarifies use of "Former Marine"

In a post in the 2010 Planning Guidance, General James F, Amos, Commandant of the Marine Corps stated "A Marine is a Marine. I set that policy two weeks ago - there's no such thing as a former Marine. You're a Marine, just in a different uniform and you're in a different phase of your life. But you'll always be a Marine because you went to Parris Island, San Diego or the hills of Quantico. There's no such thing as a former Marine." http://www.mcldanville.com/once-a-marine.htmlLITOA (talk) 20:53, 21 November 2017 (UTC)https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Culture_of_the_United_States_Marine_Corps&action=edit&section=new#

First of all, that is ridiculous. Any self-respecting veteran of the Marine Corps would unhesitatingly say that "Former Marine" is the only acceptable term, and that they learned that on the first day of boot camp. But since this is Wikipedia and we like to "prove" things using reputable primary and secondary sources, I'll go ahead and refute this nonsense one last time then close this thread once and for all. If someone opens it again, then we know it's a troller and everyone should ignore then delete their posts. So, once again, here is evidence that all Marines and Former Marines refer to veterans of the United States Marine Corps as "Former Marine."-- not "Marine" or "Ex-Marine. No offense to General Amos, but he's a former Presidential minion who presided over a long period of wussification in the Corps. While I can't read his mind, I would guess that he wrote that quote you linked to because he thought it sounded more "inclusive" or was somehow less offensive--who knows. The point is that he wrote that in 2010 and nobody listened or even cared. He can't just wave his magic wand and rewrite ancient Marine Corps tradition. If he was so full of himself to think that he could do that, well that just shows how out of touch he is and it's a good thing he retired. Disregard of that order appears universal among active Marines. Just check out any recent Marine Corps Order (MCO) regarding non-active duty Marines. Take the PRIOR SERVICE AND RESERVE AUGMENTATION ENLISTMENTS INTO THE REGULAR MARINE CORPS, for example. Here you will find the phrase "former Marine" or "former active duty Marine" used 100% exclusively in reference to non-active duty Marines, for a total of 34 times. I'm not going to cite every MCO, but feel free to check them out yourself at [marines.mil]. So, now it's settled. In Marine Corps culture, neither active duty Marines nor their veteran brethren, refer to former Marines as anything but. While not a capital offense, the term "Ex-Marine" is often considered offensive when used by another Marine or Former Marine.

47.222.42.24 (talk) 07:54, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.