Talk:Culture of Ukraine

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"Respect for authority", really?[edit]

Raising that kind of thing on the level of separate is quite disproportionate, and as such, certainly violates the NPOV rule. I don't see any passages about "respect for authority" in any other articles about regional cultures, although there are definitely differences in it. Furthermore, the sole purpose of that subsection is to demonstrate the reputed disrespect as a negative feature. For comparison: everybody who knows anything about Russian culture knows the famous saying of historian Nikolai Karamzin about summarizing Russia in one word: "Stealing" ("Voruyut"). There is no subsection about theft and corruption in the article Culture of Russia, despite news about it reaching international media about twice a week. Well, at least "world's highest vodka consumption" is mentioned there, although not a word about drinking being a problem in Russia. In the article Culture of the United States there is a subsection titled "Gun culture" without a word about school shooting and mass murders which in the eyes of foreigners are an outstanding feature of the U.S. culture, in heavy contrast to other developed countries. My point is not that we should insert dirt-digging subsections in the articles about different cultures, but that we don't do it as a rule, and we shouldn't do it with Ukraine, either. --Ehitaja (talk) 11:59, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. I've done a comparison of "Culture of country X" articles surrounding Ukraine, and none of them focuses on socio-economic/political problems in a society. (The templates for every article have these sections: "History People Languages Mythology and folklore Cuisine Festivals Religion Art Literature Music and performing arts Media Sport Monuments Symbols". The text of each article roughly follows this structure as well.) Not that something like corruption cannot be part of "culture" (arguably it is), but mentioning such issues in "Culture of country X" articles appears not in line with established conventions of English Wikipedia. I think we best remove this section. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:59, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I agree in every one of the points of User:Nederlandse Leeuw. However, I still think it is appropriate to mention what I think is the point behind the previously mentioned section: i.e. that most Ukrainians traditionally not only identify with, but actively engage in antiestablishmentarianism. Something which can arguably be traced back to the Cossack rebellions, laying a red thread throughout most of Polish-Lithuanian and Imperial Russian history. (And arguably also Soviet history, though of course with a different character). —VladVP (talk) 20:51, 31 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I wonder whether 1. this is demonstrable with reliable sources and not just some invented tradition. After all, a great many other 'national' cultures (including the one I grew up in) claim to be rebellious, anti-authority, freedom-loving etc. and often tie that to a narrative of national history as a series of rebellions against foreign domination, usually culminating in a declaration/war of independence that is cited as 'the vindication of the freedom-loving spirit of the nation', or something along those lines. 2. Even if we were to find RS backing up such claims, I'm not sure if this is the appropriate article for it. Ukrainian nationalism seems more the place to discuss such ideas about national identity or character etc. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:09, 31 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion at Talk:Odessa § Requested move 11 July 2022[edit]

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Odessa § Requested move 11 July 2022. Rei (talk) 00:40, 12 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 16 May 2024[edit]

Culture of Ukraine → Ukrainian culture – No sources in the article are talking about "Culture of Ukraine" but of "Ukrainian culture" as well as article content. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 19:42, 15 May 2024 (UTC) This is a contested technical request (permalink). --Ahecht (TALK[reply]
PAGE) 13:32, 16 May 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 16:02, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • @Manyareasexpert: There's certainly a WP:TITLECON argument to be made for keeping it at Culture of Ukraine, since nearly every article in Category:Culture by country use "Culture of...". --Ahecht (TALK
    PAGE    )     21:25, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, thanks! The title should be Article titles are based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject per WP:TITLE first of all, and it's "Ukrainian culture". WP:TITLE follows with There is often more than one appropriate title for an article but it's not our case. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 16:32, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:NCCST is less clear than I'd prefer on this topic. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 00:49, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    While the Culture of Poland article covers the culture of Poland, to this or that extent, this article however covers the culture of Ukrainians, not Ukraine. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 13:27, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per WP:TITLECON. Also, not exclusively about ethnic culture, as the arts and customs sections for example also refer to the country. Mellk (talk) 12:17, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Oppose per WP:TITLECON
    We should observe WP:TITLE first
    Oppose per WP:TITLECON. Also, not exclusively about ethnic culture, as the arts and customs sections for example also refer to the country.
    You mean the "During the invasion of Ukraine by Russia" part? Should we create separated "Ukrainian culture" then? As the article both content and sources are actually mostly dedicated to "Ukrainian culture". ManyAreasExpert (talk) 12:32, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Consistency is part of WP:CRITERIA. All other countries from what I can see use "country of..." and Ukraine as a nation-state exists. The only exception I see for this is a few cultures for peoples without nation-states. Also, as I said, there are different sections that refer to the country. For example, religion starts off with: Religion is practiced throughout the country. Eastern Orthodox Christianity and Eastern Catholicism and Roman Catholicism are the three most widely practiced religions. The Ukrainian Orthodox Church is the largest in the country. Another example, architecture, mentions: Different regions in Ukraine have their own distinctive style of vernacular architecture, based on local traditions and the knowledge handed down through generations. Mellk (talk) 12:56, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    First, you need to change the scope of the article to focus solely on ethnic Ukrainian culture, although I do not think there would be support for this. Mellk (talk) 12:59, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Article titles are based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject. There is often more than one appropriate title for an article. In that case, editors choose the best title by consensus based on the considerations that this page explains. A good Wikipedia article title has the five following characteristics: WP:TITLE and the criteria are applied only after that. Other articles may be about countries' cultures but this article content is mostly about Ukrainian culture which is widespread across to where Ukrainians live so consistency do not apply here. So the article title should be fixed to represent what the article itself is about. Another article on culture in Ukraine could be created however. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 13:08, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I have just shown you that the article is not just about ethnic Ukrainian culture, rather the culture of the country. Until, you can get consensus to change the scope of the article, it should not be moved. Mellk (talk) 13:13, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It's still mostly about Ukrainian culture, with about 2250 words vs ~700 words about the culture of Ukraine. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 13:18, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Ukrainian culture falls under the culture of Ukraine, and not vice-versa. Sports for example refers to the national team. Tourism and the rest of the popular culture is again about the country. Anyway, I have made my argument. Mellk (talk) 13:22, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Those are different [intersecting] topics. The culture of Ukraine includes the culture of all the people living in Ukraine, including Jews, Turks, Greeks, and so on. Cinema, concert halls, cultural sites and so on are covered by it. Ukrainian culture is widespread among the places where Ukrainians live among the globe. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 13:28, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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