Talk:Crisp sandwich

Do we need arbitration on this article?

If we can't settle this, lets get someone outside to help. Between the (silly)statement about celebrities and the "some people consider a sandwich without crisps to not be worth the effort" thing, it's all I can do to not change the article itself. Seriously, lets fix this or get someone to. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.250.97.108 (talk) 17:55, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok so we all agree that blogs are out, the problem with putting in books is all you are doing is trying to validate every single possible ingredient with a reference. Most, if not all wiki entries rely on getting references that back up the statement, you do not need references for every possible scenario. I think 6 references in a 13-line article is sufficient. all the major statements have adequate references to news articles etc...so i think we can leave it like it is for the time being? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Banner001 (talk • contribs) 16:17, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Potato dish?

Can this really be classified as a "potato dish"? While it does, admittedly, indirectly use potato's as an ingredient, this hardly seems to merit the placement of that template. Sithman VIII !! 21:30, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Deleted sentence

Per WP:BOLD, I have deleted the following sentence (which seems to have caused a little contention earlier):
Some people consider a sandwich without crisps to not be worth the effort.<ref name="guardian2">{{cite web | title = Is this any way to treat a child? | publisher = The Guardian | date = 5 December 2004 | url = http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2004/dec/05/lifeandhealth.foodanddrink | accessdate = 2009-01-23}}</ref>
This is on the grounds that:

• the article in question is in fact about the crisp-eating habits of the world; the fact that a tiny minority of people can't eat a sandwich without crisps is thrown in as one line of a quote
• the sentence itself doesn't really add enough factual content to the article, I think, to warrant its inclusion anyway; it is akin to saying on the article on ice-cream that "some people eat a pint of ice-cream every day", which is almost certainly true but doesn't lend much to the article.

--Smaug123 (talk) 21:30, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Pictures

Neither of the pictures on the page depict a crisp sandwich as it is understood in any traditional sense of the term. I don't understand why they are there because they are grossly misleading — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.76.106.56 (talk) 12:41, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Dispute re: origin of the sandwich

None of the cited references substantiate the article's claim that the potato chip sandwich, aka crisp sandwich, originated in either the UK or Ireland. Moreover, there is ample evidence to suggest that the potato chip sandwich originated in the United States, with published recipes dating back at least 70 years (https://www.reddit.com/r/Old_Recipes/comments/e3i5dt/potato_chip_sandwich_1951/), although it's likely to have appeared much earlier. The article as written is pushing a cultural narrative that is misleading and should probably be completely rewritten for accuracy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:8C0:881:8200:DDB4:2D28:3E38:28AD (talk) 19:46, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

As there's been no discussion and no evidence presented to the contrary, I'm reverting this article to the version crediting the US with the sandwich's invention. 2601:8C0:881:8200:D992:F197:34C5:A796 (talk) 19:46, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

What you need to do is a. present proper sourcing, not a reddit thread or a faulty Google link, and b. not write polemic stuff like "undoubtedly American"; that would be a start. Drmies (talk) 22:27, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

As pointed out previously ONE recipe from a regional newspaper and uploaded to Reddit is not sufficient evidence or source material for you to editorialise this article. I accept your point that there may be a regional bias, but that is not the same thing, and better sources are needed. I appreciate high quality sources are difficult to source on topics like this, but if you feel so strongly about it, you should at least try. Smirkybec (talk) 22:28, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

What part of "[n]one of the cited references substantiate the article's claim that the potato chip sandwich, aka crisp sandwich, originated in either the UK or Ireland" is unclear? If you want to make such a claim within the article, then the onus of proof is you folks. So either I revert back to the (quite likely) US origin or remove any reference to the UK/Ireland altogether. Your choice. 2601:8C0:881:8200:10F3:35C2:D5C2:91BB (talk) 02:12, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

It's abundantly clear that neither one of you read the flimsy references that were provided to support the outrageous claim that the sandwich originated in the British Isles, and now you're lecturing me on my own sources. It's hypocritical to the point of being laughable. 2601:8C0:881:8200:10F3:35C2:D5C2:91BB (talk) 02:25, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm tagging in some editors who have edited this article in the past or are interested in food articles. @Valereee: @Arjayay: @KylieTastic: @GhostOfNoMeme: @Materialscientist: for your opinions, please! I'm also going to link to this discussion on a few relevant project pages. Smirkybec (talk) 09:04, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

My only concern is that the information presented in the article is accurate. Any statement attributing the sandwich exclusively to the UK or Ireland is not. As it stands, the article is heavily culturally biased, and the fact that it happens to be popular outside the US is completely irrelevant to the issue of its origin.

Anecdotally, my own family has been eating potato chip sandwiches for at least a century. The chip sandwich is also a well-documented depression-era dish that's as much a part of American culture as British or Irish, yet the article makes virtually no mention of The States. That's a bit suspicious, considering potato chips have arguably been a staple of the American diet far longer than they have in the UK or elsewhere.

At any rate, most of the current references seem to be irrelevant fluff that was added at some point to give an air of legitimacy to an article that's little more than propaganda. 2601:8C0:881:8200:D992:F197:34C5:A796 (talk) 09:45, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

I would say just remove the place of origin as I can't see how anyone could know. Any place people have bread and crisps (chips) someone would have put them together - I know I 'invented' them myself before seeing anyone else do it, as I assume other kids had been doing for decades. I would assume they had been made and enjoyed in many place around the world before anyone published anything so "place of origin" claims make no sense to me at all. Just my two-peneth - Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 09:46, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Removing any references to a specific place of origin works for me, but it's apparent from the harassment I've received that someone (or ones) are hell bent on forcing their cultural biases down everyone's throat. In fact I've just been accused of "vandalizing" the page, which is complete nonsense. 2601:8C0:881:8200:D992:F197:34C5:A796 (talk) 09:55, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Oh, there was harassment? Someone's "cultural bias" was forced down your throat? Really, that's awful. Drmies (talk) 00:40, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Wait and see what others say but I can't see so far a valid reason to keep the origin. That does not mean removing the sources for the UK and Ireland in the text - just the origin in the infobox and the unsupported "which are both believed to be the countries of the sandwich's origin". Smirkybec thoughts? Regards KylieTastic (talk) 10:13, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

I dare anyone to have a look at references 10 and 11 and then point us to exactly what supports the claim of a UK/Irish origin in the second paragraph - because in fact, neither "source" makes any mention of the sandwich's origin. None whatsoever. 2601:8C0:881:8200:D992:F197:34C5:A796 (talk) 10:08, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Side note: I tried a newspaper search and unfortunately the words "crisp sandwich" or "potato chip sandwich" are two often next to each other in list of picnic supplies etc. Such as 1919 in Ontario so there are vast amounts of hits, and I got bored looking. However see here for the full source article from the reddit link clipped if anyone wants to use. KylieTastic (talk) 10:13, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

I still believe that the citations and editorialisation of this editor amounts to original research when claiming outright that the US is the origin of the crisp/chop sandwich and would supersede all other places, and that the tone of the edits made did not add to the overall quality of the article. I agree that the claims of origin are muddy, like with a lot of dishes of this kind - but the sheer number of sources from the UK and Ireland does go a long way to demonstrating that this is a historic (referred to as nostalgic in a number of the sources) and contemporary dish in both places. Smirkybec (talk) 10:19, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Since when do the number of sources establish anything, particularly when they don't even address the origin question? Did you even read them? I did. 2601:8C0:881:8200:10F3:35C2:D5C2:91BB (talk) 10:23, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

2601:8C0:881:8200... you are correct that the number of sources is not a factor that should be used to establish one origin claim over another - reliability, depth and other factors should also be considered. Smirkybec I had not looked back at the earlier edits but yes ones such as this one claiming "undoubtedly an American invention" are just as personal opinion. I would imagine they were commonly eaten in many countries in the 1950s and much earlier, but we just use what is well sourced not our intuition. Hopefully removal of the source claim will be enough to settle this and we can all go enjoy a crisp/potato chip sandwich. KylieTastic (talk) 10:36, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

The single sentence about the United States needs to be expanded, obviously, with more historical references, as the sandwich existed here well before the 1950s and is indisputably ingrained in American culture, but it's a start.

While I admit to some naïveté regarding the editing process, my takeaway unfortunately is that rather than being concerned with presenting accurate information or embracing the democratization Wikipedia offers, the editors here (some of them, anyway) are egotistical, intransigent, and devoid of any objectivity to the point that they act as if these articles are their own personal property. It's one of the most toxic examples of gatekeeping I've ever witnessed. 2601:8C0:881:8200:648D:478:B775:E631 (talk) 17:35, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

It's one of the most toxic examples of gatekeeping I've ever witnessed. So you've had a life full of privilege, then, lol? C'mon, that seems a bit hyperbolic. Look, what looks to me like happened here is that you came in here with your own cultural bias and started edit warring, and when you were reverted by multiple editors because you were trying to use reddit as your source, you came into the talk page upset. It turned out you had a point re: no one really knowing where the silly sandwich originated, so yay, the article's been improved, but frankly I see a bunch of experienced editors trying to be really patient and listen to the points made by someone being a bit rude. Valereee (talk) 11:41, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

I would broadly agree with Smirkybec, here. I believe the number and quality of sources strongly associate the sandwich with the UK and Ireland; particularly the contemporary association. It's a tricky one for me, because I've looked into this quite extensively and there don't seem to be any high- or even medium-quality sources that definitively prove an origin. I don't think a single Reddit thread or page from a book is enough to make absolute origin claims, and there is no denying that 'crisp sandwich' immediately summons Irish and British cuisine in the mind and (in my opinion) remain the probable origin. I'll do my best to look for further sources. GhostOfNoMeme (talk) 15:20, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

"there is no denying that 'crisp sandwich' immediately summons Irish and British cuisine in the mind"

Not to anyone in the United States, of course. In fact, I find that assertion preposterous on the face of it. This is just more of the same cultural prejudice that's been afflicting the article all along. 2601:8C0:881:8200:648D:478:B775:E631 (talk) 17:25, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm in the US (and much of my work is in the food and drink category) and to me 'crisp sandwich' definitely says British/Irish cuisine. For one thing, in the US crisps are called chips, and while I'm familiar with sandwiches containing potato chips, and I've seen dozens of recipes/menu entries for such sandwiches, I certainly am not aware of a category of sandwich called 'chip sandwich', with regional variations/names. The point here is that without a source, we can't know, so we shouldn't cover it as if there's settled knowledge. You made a good point there. Take the win. :) Valereee (talk) 11:55, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

• Summoned, I appear. IP, it's hard to tell which sources you're referring to when you just say 'references 10 and 11' because every time the article changes, the numbers of the references can also change. Which means it's difficult for other editors to comply with your request that they read those sources unless they happen along at the exact right moment. Are you referring to the Marie Boran and the Ultimate Guide sources? That's what's showing up for me as 10 & 11 in an earlier version of the article. Valereee (talk) 14:35, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

  I believe it was this reference and this one that were being referred to. One I have removed as it looks to be a trade blog, so not the best reference to start with. I've done some editing on this article on and off, but mostly looking at the Irish slant on it. Smirkybec (talk) 15:34, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

  Got all excited at first when I found this. :D Valereee (talk) 16:34, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

  D it's a good site - sometimes TOO good! Smirkybec (talk) 16:55, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

• (OR warning) In the US in 1951, when the reddit recipe appeared in the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle, simple novelty recipes like this were ubiquitous in women's page recipe columns and Community cookbooks. Women sent in a 'cute' or 'fun' recipe, and the columnist or cookbook organizer might choose to publish it along with actual recipes. In the UK, in the post war years -- and someone feel free to correct me on this -- this may have been poverty/rationing food, not cute or 'fun' food. It was something you fed your kids when you literally had nothing else. This would have been an unlikely recipe to be sharing in a column or cookook because 1. everybody was already aware of it and 2. people would have felt some painful emotions about it. A bit like ketchup sandwiches in the US during the depression. Huh, possible future article. At any rate, I'd be very surprised to see a ketchup sandwich recipe in a US recipe column from 1935. So even the fact the 'first' recipe we can personally find (OR again) is in the US, that doesn't make this a US dish. Again, apologies for the OR, I'm not suggesting we say anything remotely like this in the article. Valereee (talk) 12:38, 31 July 2022 (UTC)