Talk:Conservative Party of Canada/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Same-sex marriage

The article implies that the recent issue regarding gay divorce has anything to do at all with the conservative stance on same-sex marriage. This is incorrect as the recent issue didn't actually have anything to do with same-sex marriage, but with "tourism marriage" in general. If a particular type of marriage is illegal in a couple's country of residence, then even if they are allowed to marry in Canada that marriage will not be upheld by the Canadian courts. This is not particular to same-sex marriage. For example the U.S. does not allow first-cousin marriage, while Canada does. If a heterosexual first-cousins couple who lived in the U.S. was married in Canada, then that marriage wold be considered void in Canada as the marriage was not legal in the couple's country of residence. (See here for source]) I therefore think that mentioning the issue under a section dealing with the conservative's view on same-sex marriage creates the misimpression that the issue was an ideologically driven one.NereusAJ (T | C) 06:34, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't see much of an issue with how it's currently worded in the article. The Conservative Party didn't have anything to do with the story, but it was indeed in the news thanks to a complete fabrication by The Globe and Mail, and therefore Harper's response is definitely relevant to the article in my opinion. The paragraph is accurate and is an opportunity to reflect Harper's position that he will not reopen the debate, which is important from an encyclopedic point of view (reflecting the Party's position). Though I acknowledge this could be done without mentioning the fabricated story. CharlieEchoTango (contact) 06:59, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

That's what I meant to suggest. The paragraph states that a Justice Department official was of the opinion that the marriage was void. This does create the impression that this decision was motivated ideologically, while it was actually motivated by the legal principle of comity. I think it would be better to simply say something like "After accusations that the conservative party was reversing its policy on same-sex marriage, Harper responded so and so." Furthermore, when the article states that Harper corrected the record it sounds as if Harper contradicted the Justice Department official's claim that the marriage is void. This is wrong. Harper actually stated that he was unfamiliar with the case. He corrected the records only in as far as he refuted claims that the conservative party was reversing its policy. It also implies that the Justice Department official was wrong, which isn't the case. Legally, the official's argument was sound. NereusAJ (T | C) 08:44, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Electoral Fraud in the lead

I've removed the 'alleged electoral fraud' from the lead. Please gain consensus if it is to be re-posted. There is sufficient coverage in the section below on this subject. Karl 334 ^{☞TALK to ME ☜} 22:10, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

History section

The sections from "2006 general election" through "Third Harper Government" are far too detailed. This is an article about the party, so going into that much detail is hard to justify. There are certainly parts that should be here, but they should only be broad strokes, and details that have to do with the party itself. Aside from pushing this article beyond what it is supposed to be, the extra detail invites additions for ever scandal or press announcement that catches some editor's attention. Can anyone justify keeping the level of detail that is currently there? -Rrius (talk) 00:00, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Woodworth's abortion private members bill

An IP editor is trying to add the following:

On March 13, 2012 a committee of Conservative MPs agreed to give Conservative MP Stephen Woodworth a one hour hearing "sometime in April", and a second hour of debate "in late spring or early fall" for his proposal to create a special committee to examine the legal definition of when a fetus becomes a human being.

This inaccurate and inconsequential. The fact is that the Subcommittee Private Members' Business of the Commons Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs are both cross-party committees. It is also the fact that nothing odd happened here. Every time the list of private members' bills and motions to be debated by the Commons is replenished, i.e., when all the old ones have been debated, the subcommittee determines whether any of the bills are nonvotable.[1] This particular bill happened to be in the latest tranche of 15 bills and motions determined to be votable.[2]

There is no reason why the fact that this private member's bill has been introduced or is expected to be debated in April should be in the article. This is article is for information about the party, not a depository for every factlet that pertains to a member of the party. -Rrius (talk) 00:31, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

This bill is directly related to abortion, and is a proposal to open up debate on the issue. As noted directly above this in the article, Prime Minister Harper has previously promised not to open debate on the issue. The fact that the bill was brought forwards by a Conservative MP makes it relevant.

Also, please note that the fact that I am editing from my IP address is irrelevant to the discussion.

First, so what if it is related to abortion? It is a private memebers bill, not a government bill. There is no evidence it is Conservative Party policy; it is Stephen Woodworth policy. This is an article about the party, not the MP. It is absurd to suggest that every bill sponsored by every private member that wins the lucky dip to be debated should be added at its party's article. The fact of this article's debate is relevant at Stephen Woodworth; not here. If Stephen Harper decides to support the bill, or there is a substantial vote by the party to support it at second reading, it should be mentioned. For now, all that has happened is that a private member introduced a bill and it won the lottery for to make it on the Order Paper. That is hardly important for this article. Finally, I never said your IP status was relevant here. If an editor who bothered to register had been involved, I would have used his or her user name. Since you don't have one, I used "IP" as I and many other do regularly. I have no desire to remember or copy and paste your particular IP address, and someone who professes, as you did on my talk page, to have been actively editing here since 2005 should have picked up on that by now. -Rrius (talk) 00:51, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

ADDITIONAL: If you feel the sentence added to the article misrepresents the reliable and properly cited source, please feel free to contribute to the wording of the sentence.

Done. Since it wasn't a "committee of Conservative MPs", or even a committee with a Conservative majority, that part was wrong, and when edited down to the truth was distracting fluff. It is therefore removed. The only remotely relevant bit is that a Conservative MP will have a bill debated that seeks to create a committee regarding the definition of human life. -Rrius (talk) 00:53, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

I appreciate the edit to the wording in the sentence. This constructive action on your part has improved the information in the article.

No, it has improved the inaccurate passage you added. It is still not relevant to the article. The point of the section is to discuss the "policies and positions" of the Conservative Party; not the particular positions of individual members. -Rrius (talk) 01:11, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

ADDITIONAL: Please try and remain civil in your discussion about the article. Your language here is bordering on the offensive, and is at the least condescending.

I feel I am being civil. I haven't called you names or accused you of any of the things I would really like to. As for giving you offense, I don't care. I can't help if your level of sensitivity, which, if you are offended, is rather low. As for condescending, given your deficiencies in even managing to read your source without your own biases flat out changing what it says before it reaches your conscious mind, and given your extraordinary behaviour at my talk page, you may need to be condescended to. -Rrius (talk) 01:11, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Request For Comment: (Re: Conservative Party Of Canada: Abortion) Does disputed text meet criteria for notability, citation, and relevance. 00:03, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Dont see how this is notable for this overview party page - not a party bill - its a private member's bill ...not by the party so need to mention it here..we dont mention every bill especially those that have not passed. Moxy (talk) 00:06, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

As previously noted, equating this bill (which is specifically on the topic of abortion) with "every bill" (which may be relevant to a specific subsection or not) is a fallacy of equivocation. The discussion is not about "all bills" or "every other bill", it is about whether or not this bill is notable, properly citated, and relevant. 24.87.37.146 (talk) 00:38, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Sorry i was not clear - this bill here is not notable in the least bit for this article.Moxy (talk) 00:48, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

The article is about a Conservative MP's bill advocating abortion debate, and appears in the section on the Conservative Party's stance and actions on Abortion. Please explain how this is not notable. 24.87.37.146 (talk) 00:56, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Just because an individual Conservative MP introduces a bill does not mean that the bill reflects Conservative Party policy. The section you refer to is not about what various individual Conservatives believe about abortion. It is about the party's "policy and position" on abortion. Just because a bill is written by a Conservative, it does not mean that the bill is a Conservative Party bill. Mr. Woodworth's bill tells us not a damned thing about Conservative policy; it only tells us what he thinks. Why is this concept so hard for you? -Rrius (talk) 04:03, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Is not a party bill - this page is about the overall Conservative parties position - not what some lone member is doing. Also this is more of a developing news story then something encyclopedic yet - see WP:NOTNEWSPAPERMoxy (talk) 01:13, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. Blatant case of trying to give undue weight to a topic. This article is about the political party. Also, WP:POV argument that the opinion of a single MP reflects party policy. Should we put on Liberal Party of Canada that Quebec independence is their policy because of Justin Trudeau's comments?

This private members bill deserves no more coverage in this article (or hell, even those about the current government and parliament) than any other private member's bill. It might warrant a mention at Abortion in Canada, but even then, nothing more than a sentence, which inevitably will read: "Conservative MP Stephen Woodworth initiated a debate on when a fetus becomes a person, which was then quickly forgotten about." Resolute 13:22, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

• No per Resolute Darkness Shines (talk) 08:27, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

• NO to the addition ofthe proposed text. It is way to specfic for this article. Given it is an IP address and also seems to pretty clearly have some POV it is a definite no in my view. Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 22:34, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Clearly should not be in article - whatever I may think of the Conservative Reform Alliance Party, this is clearly a WP:UNDUE violation, and inappropriate. --Orange Mike | Talk 18:04, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

• No to addition of proposed text. Per comments of Resolute & others, violation of WP:UNDUE.--JayJasper (talk) 17:34, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
• No. Resolute's analysis looks quite right. Lord Roem (talk) 22:37, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Regressive Conservative Party of Canada

When I typed in Regressive Conservative Party of Canada it redirects to this article.

Apart from the statement of its redirection, there is no use of the word regressive in this article.

Does this mean that it is the view of the Wikipedia community that this party is a regressive one?220.239.167.151 (talk) 06:35, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

No, it means someone thought they were being funny. Cmr08 (talk) 06:51, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

It does not matter to me one way or another but obviously someone needs to do something about that redirection in order to remove any hints of political bias against this party. 220.239.167.151 (talk) 07:08, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

The redirect has existed since 2006, so I am not willing to speedy delete it. Also, lack of neutrality is not necessarily a reason to delete a redirect, though this one is obviously used in a POV context. Redirects for discussion would be the ideal venue if someone wishes to take it there. Resolute 14:05, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

There's WP:RNEUTRAL, which suggests a non-nuterual title should be backed up with sources. But the user who created it is still very active, I'm interested in seeing what he has to say, before nominating it for deletion. 117Avenue (talk) 03:23, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

The redirect does look too biased without some kind of reference on this page. My guess is that when I made it seven years ago there was some meme in the media that used the name "Regressive Conservative" in reference to this party often enough to make the redirect useful for people who didn't understand the joke. However, that's not an issue anymore, so I'll speedy delete as an unsourced attack page. If someone comes here with a good reason why it should exist, I'll re-create it. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 05:41, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Why is this party listed as centre-right?

They may want us to believe they are centre-right, but that is not the case. Can we get a non partisan definition based on policy as a guide to the correct terminology?

Actually, review, we don't need a separate analysis, the history of the party including its policies and most of its leadership comes from the Reform party, which is clearly Right-wing and stated their page. Its pretty clear that there has been some partisan adjustments to the CPC page here, including the request that it be reviewed as a talking point, where someone can prevent the change from being seen. The Progressive Conservatives there were centre-right are still around, but the CPC was too far right for them. Read the history.

I dont have tie for a lot right now, but I encourage anyone else to provide sources as well. Here is one that puts the CPC tot he right of centre-right: http://www.thecanadaguide.com/political-parties

brill (talk) 15:15, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Center-right party

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/27/world/leadership-struggle-inside-canada-s-governing-party-intensifies.html

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/03/25/opposition-parties-topple-canadian-government/

http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/idCATRE4910JE20081002

Numerous sources above. Why is this even being debated? Funny how the SOCIALIST New Democratic Party is listed as Center-left, and not Left-wing. No bias here!

Thismightbezach (talk) 06:07, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

All of the sources you've given date from before the last election. Since then the party has made dramatic changes in their policy owing to their majority status. A better argument could be made with more recent references. A more clear picture can be deduced after the CPC policy convention has passed and the upcoming throne speech is tabled.

As for the NDP it would seem to be a good time to revisit their position as listed on their page as they are currently going through a policy convention. I do think that centre-left is not very accurate, but I'm sure all can be sorted out once more clear policies are made public. It's tough to have living articles be correct all of the time!

☭ Zippanova 19:38, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't think that it is correct to describe the party as right wing. Its policies are decidedly centre-right.101.98.175.68 (talk) 05:28, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

This conversation seems to be leaning towards centre-right consensus. I tried to make a bold edit here but was reverted asking to take it to talk (but as we can see above, taking it to talk didnt go very far). I provided a number of sources (mostly books by experts) and proposed a compromise solution of "centre-right to right-wing". Is anyone against a compromise solution? Relying only on post-election sources as Zippanova suggested may fall under WP:RECENT. It seems clear to me that at the very least, reliable mainstream sources as well as authors consider them centre-right, and while anecdotal they were always called centre-right by professors in my experience. --Львівське (говорити) 06:22, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

"Formerly the Reform Party of Canada"

I've updated the phrase, "formerly the Reform Party of Canada" to wording which is more historically accurate. The Reform Party was the driving force behind the United Alternative initiative, which was intended to unite like-minded Canadians into a political force capable of forming a government by eliminating vote-splitting.

While Preston Manning and the Reform Party leadership was driving the process, the resulting Canadian Alliance was a brand new political party in its own right. The Reform Party, effectively, merged with the Canadian Alliance in much the same was as the Canadian Alliance ended up merging with the Progressive Conservative Party of Canada.

Source? Me. I was there, and I was actively involved in the process. From the official launch of the United Alternative process in London, 1998 through to the eventual announcement of the Reform Party membership's voting to merge with the Canadian Alliance on March 27, 2000. I was in the room at the announcement myself, so my source material is my own personal experience of being there. Scbritton (talk) 03:21, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

• Scbritton: I agree with your edit, but you should be clear that you and your personal experiences do not qualify as a reliable source for encyclopedia articles. (See WP:Reliable sources.) Wikipedia policy says in part: "Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. This means that we publish the opinions only of reliable authors, and not the opinions of Wikipedians who have read and interpreted primary source material for themselves." For future edits, please provides references to such sources. Thank you. Ground Zero | t 09:48, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

• • I don't think the change I made is significant enough to warrant providing a source, since all it does is add a bit of clarity towards what actually happened. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scbritton (talk • contribs) 13:40, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Page cleanup suggestion

This entire page needs a cleanup in my opinion. The polices, history, leadership, etc. of the Conservative Party of Canada, while SIMILAR, are completely separate and unrelated to the polices of the Government of Canada. The Government (which, granted, is led by the leader of the Conservative Party) makes its own policies as a wholly separate entity from the Conservative Party of Canada. The Party is its own corporation whose only official link is the leader. The entire “principles and policies” section should be rewritten to reflect what the Conservative Party’s policy declaration says. Secondly, everything after “The first Harper government” should be moved into its own page.

Perhaps this page can be reduced and we can create a separate page to the effect of “Canadian Governance under Stephen Harper”? Thoughts?Gentek16 (talk) 13:33, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree. A lot of the historical stuff should be in the Conservatism in Canada page. Also, like you say there's two much overlap between the Conservative government and the actual party policies. And section about principles and policies needs to be completely re-done. The section presently lists government policies, not the party principles as found in its constitution. Jagaer meister (talk) 16:49, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Any other comments before this is done? Gentek16 (talk) 15:43, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

And hearing none I've taken care of this Gentek16 (talk) 21:36, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

This whole thing (and, to be honest, most CanPoli articles from 1993-2006) is a giant mess: Partisan point scoring from 10 years ago, glib and repeated assessments of "vote splitting" with nothing to really back it up, and horserace banter. If anyone wants to work wtih me for a revamp, message me. Knoper (talk) 21:07, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Principles and policies section is uninformative

The principles and policies section is a strange mess that talks more about the structure of the party than its beliefs. It reads more like an advertisement and is basically one big weasel word. Can someone address this, preferably rewriting the section as a whole? I think it should be similar to the pages on the NDP and the Bloc Quebecois; a simple list that is a more neutral version of what the parties say on their websites. Mattster3517 (talk) 03:10, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

New Lead!

The lead was short and rather clunky, so the lead has been heavily expanded. Hopefully the "this lead section needs expansion" notice can be deleted in due time. Thanks!AndersenLjundberg (talk) 21:40, 16 May 2015 (UTC)AndersenLjundberg 16 May 2015 (5:40 pm) (EST)

Intro: The party's predecessors

Made a few tweaks to point out that the party has 2 predecessors. The Conservatives/Progressive Conservatives & Reform/Canadian Alliance. The lead needs more work to reflect this fact. Lately, it's been erroneously made to appear as though the party only succeeded the Conservative/Progressive Conservatives. The Reform/Canadian Alliance, has been nearly neglected. GoodDay (talk) 03:33, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

Provincial governments

An unregistered editor is trying to add bars to indicate that this federal political party controls no provinicial governments. We don't need to state the obvious. It doesn't belong here. Feel free to discuss, but let's leave it out unless there is a consensus here to add it. Ground Zero | t 21:51, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

I agree. Federal parties in Canada are not fully integrated in provincial politics, with the exception of the NDP. The conservatives have no provincial affiliates; while the liberals don't have one in BC, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Quebec and the NWT. Canada is not like the US where the GOP and democrats run from the white house to every state legislature. -- Kndimov (talk) 21:59, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, Kndimov. I have also raised this issue at Talk:Liberal Party of Canada. Ground Zero | t 00:48, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

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Internal factions - ideology

Would anyone support an internal factions subheading in the ideology part of the infobox, like the articles Conservative Party (UK), Republican Party (United States), Democratic Party (United States) and Liberal Democrats? There are obviously some people with differing ideas within this party. --Jay942942 (talk) 13:16, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

It would always depend on sourcing, but given the long-known existence of terms like "Red Tories", I would say such would be appropriate. The biggest issue would, of course, be finding neutral sources. Resolute 14:50, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

While factions of the Republican Party (United States) certainly embrace right-wing populism, right-libertarianism and social conservatism I disagree strongly that the Conservative Party of Canada embraces these values. The CPC is Stephen Harper and Stephen Harper is the CPC. Under his leadership the Government preserved the basic aspects of the Canadian welfare state (Canada Health Act, subsidized post-secondary education, etc), maintained very high levels of immigration with a strong commitment to multiculturalism and integrating newcomers, and maintained strong opposition to changing Canada's laws with regard to abortion and same-sex marriage. I think the dominant ideology of the CPC is Liberal Conservatism (David Cameron, Theresa May identify as such). Certainly fiscal conservatism, economic liberalism and a decentralized federalism form an important part of the CPC's ideology. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.143.72.217 (talk) 00:51, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Maxime Bernier is fairly explicitly libertarian, and he came very close to winning the leadership race. Numerous reliable sources have commented on the existence of a libertarian faction. There's also numerous reliable sources that identify a social conservative faction, inherited from the Reform Party and nowadays generally associated with Brad Trost. I agree with Hebhom that a factions subheading is appropriate as these ideologies are not central to the party itself.--Jay942942 (talk) 15:16, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

I completely agree with the idea that the CPC as a whole does not embrace libertarianism and right-wing populism. I support forming a "Factions" headline. Hebhom (talk) 05:34, 28 May 2017 (UTC) Hebhom

Ideology

Right now the page is locked because of an edit war over the ideology displayed in the infobox. I would like to find a consensus regarding the ideology of this party so we can get the page unlocked and allow people to constructively editing the rest of the page. I would say the core ideology of the party is Conservatism in Canada, which would be placed in the infobox as Conservatism. I would say some other core ideas of the party that are worthy of inclusion are Economic liberalism, Fiscal conservatism and Constitutional monarchism. I would then go with a Factions subheading, as on Republican Party (United States), which would include ideologies held by sub-groups within the party such as Social conservatism, Libertarianism and whatever else anyone else suggests. There are reliable sources to back up all of these claims, but I would be more than willing to bring some up if there are others disputing my suggestions. What approach do you think should be taken?--Jay942942 (talk) 15:29, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

I don't think constitutional monarchism is a core Conservative Party ideology. There are certainly monarchists in the CPC but there are republicans as well. Harper was more of a monarchist than previous Tory leaders (at least since Diefenbaker) but I wouldn't call it central to CPC's programme. Hungarian Phrasebook (talk) 16:49, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

That is fair, I would be fine with leaving it off.--Jay942942 (talk) 22:35, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

I would say that Conservatism, Fiscal conservatism, Canadian federalism, and Economic liberalism are the core ideologies of the party. Factions would include Social conservatism, Libertarian conservatism, Liberal conservatism, and Right-wing populism. I think these are the most prominent factions of the party that showed themselves during the recent leadership election. Trost and Lemieux with social conservatism, Bernier with libertarian conservatism, Chong with liberal conservatism, and Leitch with right-wing populism. I am a Conservative party member and well versed in Canadian politics and know the party well. The old PC wing of the party is definitely Centre-right, as seen with Michael Chong, while the old Reform wing is Right-wing, as seen with many of the other candidates for the leadership. The party must be labeled centre-right to right-wing due to the fact that the party encompasses these two factions. Sonicfox44 (talk) 13:00, 14 June 2017 (EST)

I would agree generally, but I think it is important to clarify 'Conservatism in Canada' by using that as the hyperlink rather than the generic 'Conservatism' article, due to the huge differences in the nature of conservatism depending on country. Right-wing populism might be contentious with some but I have no issue with that personally.--Jay942942 (talk) 22:58, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

Notwithstanding the (mis)use of the "factions" section in the US party pages, there are no formal factions in the Conservative party so listing "factions" is simply innaccurate - a faction has some level of organization, even if it's informal and outside of leadership races there really aren't any organized factions. Hungarian Phrasebook (talk) 17:12, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

I believe the use is in reference to ideological factions, hence why it is under the 'ideology' section of the infobox. Wiktionary defines 'faction' as "A group of people, especially within a political organization, which expresses a shared belief or opinion different from people who are not part of the group" and that's certainly the case here. --Jay942942 (talk) 22:35, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

I'd like to object and say right-libertarianism is a more appropriate to use rather than libertarian conservative. My two cents though Cowik (talk) 11:32, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

For the purposes of the infobox I'd say they're pretty interchangeable. Right-libertarianism might be somewhat more accurate as it includes more radical types of libertarian rather than just a small segment of libertarian-leaning right-wingers. I would even be fine with just Libertarianism, since the popular definition of that in Canada is roughly the same as in the United States (right/free market libertarianism).--Jay942942 (talk) 22:53, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

I know that news organizations such as the CBC have used that terminology before, be it correct or not. I do know that those are the ideologies that are represented within the party and many sources do confirm this. I would highly suggest that when editing the ideologies section on the page, those ideologies are represented since the CPC is a "big tent" party. Sonicfox44 (talk) 13:17, 14 June 2017 (EST)

As the party ideology or as factions of it?--Jay942942 (talk) 22:59, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

The thing is these terms are being applied by journalists or other observers on an ad hoc basis, they aren't organic. If there was a self-identfied group of people within the CPC that called itself right-libertarian I'd be more willing to call that a faction but if it's just a term used by media to try to describe different ideological tendencies then less so. Hungarian Phrasebook (talk) 01:43, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

• WP:PROVEIT--Moxy (talk) 12:15, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

The page is locked, so no one can add or restore material.--Jay942942 (talk) 14:20, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

The page is locked as we are waiting for you guys to come up with some sort of verification here in the talk page and come to a consensus on what to add.--Moxy (talk) 18:17, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

We really have to start this conversation because the current page for the CPC is sorely lacking information on ideology and some of the info concerning the political position is inaccurate. Significant parts of t he CPC are much more right-wing than centre-right. Have any of you seen Brad Trost's final speech at the leadership convention? He placed 4th meaning that his constituency is a significant part of the party. Maxime Bernier's economic message is also far more right-wing than centre-right as well and he placed a close 2nd. We must look at the significant parts of the leadership race and look at the ideologies within the party. I strongly believe that what I suggested previously is accurate and the correct ideologies within the CPC Sonicfox44 (talk) 17:10, 21 June 2017 (EST)

I agree expansion is needed....but we cant make our own conclusions on perceived positions. We need to regurgitate what reliable sources say....no original research.--Moxy (talk) 21:47, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

http://www.conservative.ca/our-party/our-history/ this source talks about the free enterprise (Fiscal conservatism, economic liberalism) part of the conservative party. http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/opinion/breakfast-with-bernier-1.3931417 this source talks about Maxime Bernier being a libertarian. He himself even describes himself as a moderate libertarian. I would put this down as right-libertarianism. https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2017/05/29/social-conservative-candidates-got-strong-support-from-toronto-suburbs-leadership-data-says.html This source talks about the social conservative candidates getting strong support from the membership. These are the core ideologies of the CPC and the sources to prove it. If anyone wants to add sources then that is ok. This is just a start to get us on the path to agreeing on ideologies Sonicfox44 (talk) 18:52, 21 June 2017 (EST)

I see the article is sourced to off ed news articles....just horrible ....will search for scholarly publication this weekend.--Moxy (talk) 19:33, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

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Factions

Whoever listed factions in the CPC is incorrect. These aren't actual political factions.Hungarian Phrasebook (talk) 10:49, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

That's how it's done on Republican Party (United States) and Democratic Party (United States).--Jay942942 (talk) 15:17, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps it shouldn't be, it's certainly not used in that sense in the UK party pages which Canadian parties are more closely patterned after (American party's are structured completely unlike parties in either the UK or Canada). Factions is the wrong word (at least in the formal sense). Hungarian Phrasebook (talk) 16:53, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

--Moxy (talk) 19:33, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

Listing "factions" under right libertarianism and social consetvativism is 100% incorrect. The party manifesto voted apon at every conservative convention has been very social conservative (ie, anti-euthanasia, anti-abortion or pro life however your stance, anti-marijuana, ect.) The platform also advocates for libertarians ideals, such as lower taxes and reduced public spending (especially prominent now and durring the Harper administration), so to say it's all "factions" is entirely incorrect. Monarchist45 (talk) 15:05, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

Ideological Factions

Wanted to create a discussion section on Factions in the infobar, since there doesn't seem to be a solid consensus, as the edit is removed without reason or discussion. Without a doubt in my mind, factions should be mentioned next to "Social conservatism" and "Right libertarianism." The Conservative Party in Canada is a Big tent party of politics that are right of centre, meaning differing ideologies are present within the party. These two for example are very differing ideologies and the party itself has never claimed to be fully in support of either of these, though there's strong support for both of these by party MPs and members. An example of the factions within the party can be seen with current leader Andrew Scheer (typically considered part of the social conservative faction) and his competition in the recent leadership election Maxime Bernier (openly part of the Right Libertarian faction of the party). Plus, many sources mention these are factions within the party and other political party Wikipedia pages, for instance the Republican Party (United States) separates and notes the ideological factions of party members in the infobox as to not generalize/oversimplify the party. Spilia4 (talk) 18:36, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

As mentioned before.....no thanks. In Canada the term "Factions" has a different meaning then the USA....we have regional groups - The Editors of Encyclopædia Britannica say.... (The Progressive Conservative Party, similar to the Liberal Party, contained various shades of opinion, and its policies were generally determined by local issues and practical need rather than by ideology ) ........see also Michael Keating; Guy Laforest (2017). Constitutional Politics and the Territorial Question in Canada and the United Kingdom: Federalism and Devolution Compared. Springer. p. 144. ISBN 978-3-319-58074-6. As for the big tent party best review R. Kenneth Carty (2015). Big Tent Politics: The Liberal Party’s Long Mastery of Canada’s Public Life. UBC Press. ISBN 978-0-7748-3002-7......that seen they have been doing much bettter recently J.P. Lewis; Joanna Everitt (2017). The Blueprint: Conservative Parties and their Impact on Canadian Politics. University of Toronto Press. p. 11. ISBN 978-1-4875-2168-4.--Moxy (talk) 15:56, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

Listing "factions" under right libertarianism and social consetvativism is 100% incorrect. The party manifesto voted apon at every conservative convention has been very social conservative (ie, anti-euthanasia, anti-abortion or pro life however your stance, anti-marijuana, ect.) The platform also advocates for libertarians ideals, such as lower taxes and reduced public spending (especially prominent now and durring the Harper administration). so to say there are "factions" is entirely incorrect Monarchist45 (talk) 00:45, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Maxime Bernier even said he was willing to reopen the abortion debate in Canada, something even Sheer, a right winger with about a 15 year record, said he wouldn't even do. Monarchist45 (talk) 00:47, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Right-libertarian

There are currently no sources for the ideology 'right-libertarianism'. I have tried finding just one and have been unable to do so. I suggest we replace it with 'libertarianism' as there are plenty of sources for it. -VivaSlava (talk) 03:21, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

Facebook preview of this Wiki page is a Nazi logo

Someone has evidently vandalised this page so that when it is linked in Facebook (and perhaps other social media) Nazi regalia appears. As I do not know how to remove this offensive and juvenile image, I ask that someone else will do so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peeknocker (talk • contribs) 06:13, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

MP identification

Hi! Please help identify MPs in this picture and add Categories:

Conservative Party in 2018

Thanks. // sikander { talk } 03:52, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

SNC-Lavalin

Over last several weeks we witnessed fight over SNC criminal matters and prime minister showing one finger salute to everybody. Why nobody asked about any investments our leader on parliament hill has with SNC? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.13.243.119 (talk) 20:10, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Source indicating "Center-Right" actually describes the party as Right-Wing

The source says that broadly speaking, the party is right-wing, and that one of the predecessor parties (the Progressive Conservatives) were center-right. The other predecessor - the Reform Party/Canadian Alliance was described as extreme right. So to say the Conservatives "Center-Right to Right-Wing" gives a misleading view that the party tends to be more moderate. I would say a more accurate way of describing the party would be something like "Big-Tent of the Right" or "Center-Right to Far-Right", or just simply "Right-Wing". Left-Libertarian (talk) 23:11, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

Canadian parties are Centrist by nature and this party is simply on the right side of center. Far-right politics has never been part of the main parties in Canada and in fact to win an election all parties need to align to the center. Canada is very unique in having Centrist parties.... they all support our social Society just differ on how to implement it. For a basic overview with more sources pls refer to Politics of Canada#Political culture.

1. David Johnson (2016). Thinking Government: Public Administration and Politics in Canada, Fourth Edition. University of Toronto Press. pp. 13–23. ISBN 978-1-4426-3521-0. ...most Canadian governments, especially at the federal level, have taken a moderate, centrist approach to decision making, seeking to balance growth, stability, and governmental efficiency and economy...
2. "Plurality-Majority Electoral Systems: A Review". Elections Canada. First Past the Post in Canada has favoured broadly-based, accommodative, centrist parties...
3. Amanda Bittner; Royce Koop (1 March 2013). Parties, Elections, and the Future of Canadian Politics. UBC Press. p. 300. ISBN 978-0-7748-2411-8. Domination by the Centre The central anomaly of the Canadian system, and the primary cause of its other peculiarities, has been its historical domination by a party of the centre. In none of the other countries is a centre party even a major player, much less the dominant....
4. Encyclopaedia Britannica, Inc. (2009). Britannica Book of the Year 2009. Encyclopaedia Britannica, Inc. p. 379. ISBN 978-1-59339-232-1. Stephen Harper's centre-right Conservative Party won reelection on...
5. Ambrose, Emma; Mudde, Cas (2015). "Canadian Multiculturalism and the Absence of the Far Right". Nationalism and Ethnic Politics. 21 (2): 213–236. doi:10.1080/13537113.2015.1032033. The far right has never been a prominent force in Canadian politics or society.

--Moxy 🍁 00:23, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Should this be included?

Hello,

I talked to Ahunt about this the other day and he told me it was relevant to this page. But, I'm not sure if you guys agree with me thinking it may qualify as news? What do you think?

We had this information that came out from CPC insiders : https://www.thestar.com/politics/federal/2019/10/10/scheer-campaign-faces-leadership-speculation-as-election-day-nears.html https://apple.news/AcoCPYFY3Spah3gxl7IGfzA This one is paywalled but it's a development to the story : https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-despite-leadership-questions-scheer-says-conservatives-are-united/ This also references the development in the paywalled article https://www.nationalnewswatch.com/2019/10/11/despite-leadership-questions-scheer-says-conservatives-are-united-behind-him/ And finally there is this as the final development to the story : https://www.macleans.ca/politics/for-the-tories-peter-mackay-is-more-than-just-a-face-in-the-crowd/

MikkelJSmith (talk) 14:19, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

??? MikkelJSmith (talk) 13:58, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

Scheer's status. No longer party leader, now interim leader.

According to increasing news sources. Andrew Scheer resigned as party leader on December 12, 2019 effective immediately. The party caucus (who due to the leadership being rendered vacant) had to chose an interim leader. It chose Scheer. Therefore, should we now have him shown as interim leader of the party? GoodDay (talk) 16:19, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

GoodDay, I would put a rfc on the 44th Canadian election page, since that's where the discussion is happening. MikkelJSmith (talk) 16:54, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Political position

I think the CPC's position should be written as a simple 'centre-right' rather than 'centre-right to right-wing' on the following grounds.

• Unlike Britain's Conservative Party, the CPC has little or no national conservative character.
• Canada's politics and culture are known to be liberal. This, of course, may be my subjective view, but in South Korea, Canada is known for its progressive tendency among the West.
• Many of the right-wing to far-right figures in the CPC have moved to the PPC or appear to be unable to speak out loud within the CPC.
• We never describe Germany's CDU or UK Conservative Party as 'right-wing'.

삭은사과 (talk) 05:30, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

As for classifying CPC as right-wing, we will write some footnotes in this document. -삭은사과 (talk) 05:37, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Of course, the CPC may be conservative in some matters, including the death penalty. Unlike the UK Conservative Party, however, the CPC has little nationalistic inclination and is more liberal than the UK Conservative Party in various cultural issues such as multiculturalism and drugs.--삭은사과 (talk) 05:49, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

(ec5) Not sure where to being with non comparable parties WP:OR. First agree centerist parties ...as i have written at Politics of Canada#Political culture. But as seen above we have many many academic sources that delve into details on a Canadian scale from left to right. If you have new academic sources (not a news story) we can reopen the debate.--Moxy 🍁 06:07, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 August 2020

"centre-right to right wing" to "centre-left" YeeterSkeeter93 (talk) 04:09, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: The current setup is a fact agreed upon by the sources cited. If you are confused, you may click on those links (called citations) next to where the party is described as "centre-right to right-wing"; they will explain. HalfdanRagnarsson (talk) 12:18, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

"Conservateur" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Conservateur. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 September 13#Conservateur until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 17:09, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Proposed split and cutting down of the History section

This section is extremely unbalanced— not in terms of tone, but in terms of emphasis and coverage. The section makes sure to mention every development and comment that happened during an election, and even touches on party conventions, but devotes exactly zero words to the actual Harper government. Anyone who reads this page is going to come away with a deep understanding of how the party acted and fared during election season, but nothing about how they acted and fared in office. For comparison, Liberal Party of Canada and New Democratic Party cover their subjects' histories much better, focusing on the broader trends and developments instead of minutiae. Which is not to say that the information here is completely pointless, but the play-by-play of the election campaign is probably better suited to the election in question's own article rather than here, for instance.

I would like to know what other editors think about the state of this page. I'm not expecting anyone to immediately jump into action and start drafting up entire new sections, but whether there'd be objections to me taking a machete to some of this (moving things if applicable), or maybe if the entire section should be split off to a standalone History of the Conservative Party of Canada article (cf: History of the Liberal Party of Canada). — Kawnhr (talk) 17:12, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Most of the stuff in that section doesn't seem to relate to the modern day, 2003 CPC. Would support a new article titled "History of Canadian conservative parties" or something to that effect. WildComet (talk) 07:09, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

The CPC as centre-right.

Since Erin O'Toole became leader the party has taken many left-leaning positions that put the party at odds with its supporters and with the more right leaning half of Canada's electorate. These include: support for a carbon price, support for sex-selective abortion, support for further increases in immigration levels and support for unionization. These positions make it clear that the party is in no significant way "right-wing", even if it once was. Unless anyone has any opposition, I will change the party position to "centre right".--Humberland (talk) 00:42, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

I object... current contemporary sources still labeled it this way in the Canadian political spectrum. Is there a source? Being a Big Ten party is the norm in Canada.Moxy- 01:49, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

AIUI, the infobox is supposed to represent the broad outline of the party, so I'm very skeptical of adjusting the position (or ideology, for that matter) just due to the efforts of a single leader (on this page or on any other party); the party is a larger, broader thing than any one leader. O'Toole may have taken a more centrist line than his predecessors on some issues, but I don't see his leadership as having transformed the party so significantly that the more right-wing flank no longer exists. Since the CPC can be described as having two competing factions, the position should reflect that. — Kawnhr (talk) 16:23, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

CPC ideology

Hi all, we're seeing a lot of edits being made to the ideology section in the infobox. Rather than play this game of one person adding and another removing, let's discuss in talk. I've restored in to:

Conservatism (Canadian)
Liberal conservatism
Economic liberalism

From sourced content, what needs to change? WildComet (talk) 03:01, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

I've added social conservatism and social liberalism as factions. It is evident that these two competing factions exist in the CPC, including in caucus, in leadership elections, at policy conventions, among party members and supporters.--Humberland (talk) 00:36, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Factions? ?? WHAT source do we have? As per the norm campaign season brings out big tent promises by all.Moxy- 02:20, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Will wait a day or two before removing media crap as sources. Will try to fine academic sources....but not looking good.Moxy- 22:39, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Techno problem

Why is it, when I go to 'edit' the 2021 sub section, I get transferred over to a section in Erin O'Toole's bio article. GoodDay (talk) 02:26, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Looks like there's a template in place to just pull text directly from O'Toole's page: {{#section-h:Erin O'Toole|Leadership of the Conservative Party}}. I've removed it, because that's really not the way to duplicate text. — Kawnhr (talk) 05:04, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Ok, thanks :) GoodDay (talk) 13:16, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

banana. smoothie. ez. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:3D09:1580:9600:5815:249F:7909:D5EB (talk) 00:32, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

protection

shouldn't this be at least kind of protected? I felt like vandalizing this page but I've learned self control and I've found peace in my soul — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:3D09:1580:9600:690E:CB96:9F2E:9816 (talk) 03:13, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

It is to my knowledge that Wikipedia tends to leave the vast majority of articles open for anyone to edit—even if those articles cover controversial subjects, like political parties. Only in certain cases, like a high volume of vandalism in a short period of time do editing restrictions come into force. SchizoidNightmares (talk) 00:54, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Fiscal conservatism and centrism, social conservatism and social liberalism as factions

The conservatives are more fiscally conservative and liberal + the conservatives and a large centrist and sociallly liberal faction and have a socially conservative that’s not as big as the centrist/liberal factions but I’d still add it given it’s still large and has influence within the conservatives Produda (talk) 22:17, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

The Conservatives are so "liberal" and "centrist" that, in the recent leadership election, they overwhelmingly voted for social conservative Pierre Poilievre as their next leader and (statistically) humiliated his closest competitor, lukewarm Progressive Conservative Jean Charest. "[The Conservatives] have a socially conservative [faction] that's not as big as the centrist/liberal factions ..." – give me a break. Yue🌙 05:55, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

“Right-wing populism”.

Multiple news sources such as CBC, CityNews, etc. have said that the CPC is now a right-wing populist party; we should add that to the infobox in my opinion. Wikipageedittor099 (talk) 22:40, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

 Not done....as a fast check .....let alone our sources at politics of Canada do not say this. That said the liberals would love to hear this. We have to wait and see what he actually does.... just because he campaigned on the far right does not mean that's where we are. Liberals do the same thing campaign on the left and govern from the center. If they have any chance of winning they better stick with big tent policies or liberals will be here for another decade....simply can't win if you don't get central Canada's vote.

Moxy- 22:59, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Yep I agree with Moxy (although the reply could have been better without inserting personal political opinions). We need Canadian sources, as they are the ones that know Canadian politics very well. Ak-eater06 (talk) 23:31, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Simply say what is factual about our " brokerage politics" we have here. Moxy- 23:43, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

My understanding is that the ideology and position fields are supposed to represent a broader view of the party: the overall tendency of the party, as it has been over a several years/election cycles, and not simply the current leader's current preoccupations. Poillevre may have taken a more populist bent, but to say that the CPC is now a right-populist party means equally that the party was a Red Tory entity only a year or so ago (under O'Toole), and socially conservative a little before that (under Scheer). That each leader has pulled the party in a certain direction, and yet the next leader could still pull it elsewhere, says — to me — that the overall party ideology is more than one man's vision, that it is actually somewhat malleable, and that it's not particularly helpful to keep changing the designation every time someone new leads it. — Kawnhr (talk) 16:11, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Agreed, changing their description after every new leader seems irregular. LemonberryPie (talk) 19:59, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

I would give it some time as the party may be undergoing some PR shifts and also provide reliable sources on this talk page that describe the Conservative Party as right-wing populist or populist to back up the inclusion of such a label in the infobox. It is one thing for their leader to be described as such, it is another thing for their party to be labelled as it. Unless I am wrong and it is actually standard practice on Wikipedia to treat descriptions of the leader as the same as the party. If I'm assuming right, the leader does not necessarily define the party. Due to the contentious nature of the label, an RfC may be called for in the near future. As a reminder, it doesn't matter what editors think the party's ideology is, what matters is how reliable sources (or at least those deemed reliable by consensus on Wikipedia) describe it. SchizoidNightmares (talk) 00:47, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

In the event that opinion articles do describe them as such in the future, it's important that we adhere to the policy of not stating opinions as fact. Avoid stating opinions as facts. Usually, articles will contain information about the significant opinions that have been expressed about their subjects. However, these opinions should not be stated in Wikipedia's voice. Rather, they should be attributed in the text to particular sources, or where justified, described as widespread views, etc. If opinion articles describe them as populist after more than a single leadership cycle, we could add "several journalists have described the Conservative Party of Canada as a populist party" rather than "the Conservative Party of Canada is a populist party". The latter would require numerous scholarly book sources, rather than opinion articles. LemonberryPie (talk) 19:59, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

We have no sources about the party just about this man who's been elected and hasn't put his party in any direction yet. We have to keep an eye on this as the media is saying two different things ...populist ...,,,,,vs the norm ..that will dominate the sources for a while until there's actually a party political position and academic analysis.Moxy- 02:26, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

References