Talk:Claire Dux

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Nationality[edit]

Clara Auguste Dux was born in 1885 near Bydgoszcz (then Bromberg), probably within the county Kreis Gnesen (Gniezno), from the which the Kreis Witkowo was split in 1887; that area was part of the Kingdom of Prussia's Province of Posen from 1815 until 1920. Michael Scott writes in The Record of Singing: "Though she was born in Poland, her family were Germans."

Of the three listed villages named Witkowice in Greater Poland, Witkowice, Konin County seems the most likely; it's 107 km east of Poznań, and Gniezno is about 50 km east, Bydgoszcz about 100 km north-east. The other villages Witkowice in Greater Poland are north of Poznań.

I think Grove's Alan Blyth, who doesn't cite any supporting literature, failed to grasp the vagaries of the partitions of Poland. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 08:39, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That is an excellent point... I'm inclined to agree with you. However, it's a bit tricky avoiding WP:OR here. I'm not sure what the best solution is. I'd like to get voceditenore's input. This is exactly the sort of tangle she is so good at sorting out; or at least finding a good way to express the complexity in a clear way. Mind if we leave things as they are until she has a chance to chime in? I'll leave a note on her talk page.4meter4 (talk) 09:04, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No worries – There is no deadline. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 09:34, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This kind of gentle, thoughtful, measured discourse is no way to conduct matters of Eastern European nationalities and borders on WP ;-) almost-instinct 09:07, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. This is waaaay too civilized.:-) Anyhow, when I'm faced with these situations I generally leave out the "foo-ish" nationality from the lede, relate the facts, note conflicting views in the sources, and let the reader decide. However, I did find this in the liner notes to Lebendige Vergangenheit: Claire Dux (Preiser Records):

"Claire Dux was born on 2 August 1885 in Witkowicz, a small town near Bromberg (now Bydgoszcz) in the formerly Prussian province of Posen (now Pozna in western Poland). However, it would not be correct to consider her a Polish soprano, as some writers did in her obituaries: she was of strictly German parentage."

Incidentally, the above has a lot of interesting biographical information on her. For one thing, the Chicago meat packer was her third husband. Also, in this US newspaper article, from 1922, she is described as:

"...a truly cosmopolitan artist She born on Polish territory and her ancestry represents several nationalities [...] her mother being related to Clara Schumann"

Voceditenore (talk) 07:28, 21 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I also came across those liner notes and intend to use them and other material for some additional details, some quite fascinating, e.g. this Dali painting.

I very much agree with your suggestions about presenting the facts and letting the reader decide, but I fear someone will insist on a category, however ill-fitting; see e.g. Talk:Pauline Anna Milder-Hauptmann. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 11:26, 21 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you voceditenore for the helpful suggestions and to you Michael for the excellent expansion. I wouldn't be opposed to listing her in multiple opera singer cats by nationality, but none is also ok by me. What do you all think?4meter4 (talk) 14:10, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, in cases like this, I've put them in multiple categories. Michael's right, sooner or later someone will insist on a nationality category. In this case, I'd use the two most commonly mentioned in the references (Polish and German). They're basically just finding aids anyway. Voceditenore (talk) 14:29, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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