Talk:Chinese Soviet Republic/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

title

Soviet Republic of China a better title? --Jiang 03:43, 3 October 2003 (UTC)

"Chinese Soviet Republic" is more common: 300 vs. 60 [1]. --Menchi 03:58, 3 October 2003 (UTC)

Preface to Fundamental Laws of the Chinese Soviet Repub —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tastetrees (talk • contribs) 02:20, August 20, 2007 (UTC).

Zhu De?

Is it just me, or does this page seem to be ignoring the contributions of Zhu De? DOR (HK) (talk) 03:21, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Added a paragraph on the Hailufeng Soviet. DOR (HK) (talk) 04:00, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Is this a "puppet state"

This Chinese Soviet Republic was created under the tutelage and financial and military assistance of Soviet Union and Communist International. Most of its leaders, it's political, economic and military policies were directed by the foreign powers. It falls into the definition of "puppet state" of Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puppet_state —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.75.48.150 (talk) 19:26, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

bad opening

The first sentence doesnt even tell me what it is. fail. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.239.7 (talk) 23:06, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

You fail, you can't even sign your posts. -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs 13:22, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Works of Mao

The footnotes in the sel work of mao refers to Red power as similar but not identical to soviets and never uses the word. --Gary123 (talk) 17:34, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

2 other flags on wikimedia

here http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A4%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BB:Flag_of_the_Chinese_Soviet_Republic2.gif http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_the_Chinese_Soviet_Republic.svg --Gary123 (talk) 17:34, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

According to what has been said on this page, the one with the white stars and the black tools is the 1935-1937 war flag (used after the end of the republic). Maybe the other flag belongs to one of the other communist bases (i.e., not in Jiangxi) Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 21:02, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Flag

Where does the current flag on the page come from? Flags of the World showed this flag while the historic site of the Jiangsi Soviet had a completely different flag (scroll down). Which of these flags were the actual flag(s) used? _dk (talk) 02:34, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps add information on both flags? i.e. add the alternate flag down lower? -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs 13:22, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

At http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/cn-csr.html#csrwar you can find this quote: "The Chinese Communist Party adopted their own War Flag in 1935, which was red bearing a large 5-pointed white star in the center upon which was a *black* hammer and sickle of the Russian-soviet type. It was abandoned in late 1937 when the communists joined with the nationalists to fight the Japanese." I think we can remove the current flag, considering that the Chinese Soviet Republic collapsed by the end of 1934. I recognize this flag, which seems to have consensus in the other Wikipedias and elsewhere on the web ([2]). However, World Statesmen.org claims that this flag was the used by the "People's Republic of China" from "1928 - 7 Nov 1931", that a flag very similar to the one used on the official site was used from "7 Nov 1931 - 15 Oct 1934" and that the current flag of the P. R. C. was "Adopted 1 Oct 1949". Now, this article claims that the Chinese Soviet Republic was established 7 November 1931 (World Statesmen.org, oddly, claims that the "Soviet Republic of China" lasted from "1 Dec 1931 - 15 Oct 1934"). Is it just a coincidence that the dates coincide? I will remove the current flag and not replace it until more research can be done.--189.102.200.171 (talk) 22:35, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Given the history of the chinese soviet, it would not be surprising if they used several different flags. The chinese wikipedia uses the white star/black tools flag, but they also consider that the soviet republic existed until 1937 (i.e. after the fall of Jiangxi and until the second united front) so it would be normal to use the 1935 war flag. Maybe the flag shown on the official site was the one of the Jiangxi soviet specifically and not of the Chinese soviet republic as a whole (as it officially included several soviets, if I am not mistaken) ? Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 21:14, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Red or Soviet power?

This is the footnote from Mao's official works "The organizational form of China's Red political power was similar to that of Soviet political power. A Soviet is a representative council, a political institution created by the Russian working class during the 1905 Revolution. Lenin and Stalin, on the basis of Marxist theory, drew the conclusion that a Soviet republic is the most suitable form of social and political organization for the transition from capitalism to socialism. Under the leadership of the Bolshevik Party of Lenin and Stalin, the Russian October Socialist Revolution in 1917 brought into being for the first time in world history such a socialist Soviet republic, a dictatorship of the proletariat. After the defeat of the 1927 revolution in China, the representative council was adopted as the form of people's political power in various places in the mass revolutionary uprisings led by the Chinese Communist Party and, first and foremost, by Comrade Mao Tse-tung. In its nature political power at that stage of the Chinese revolution was a people's democratic dictatorship of the anti-imperialist, anti-feudal, new-democratic revolution led by the proletariat, which was different from the proletarian dictatorship in the Soviet Union. " `--Gary123 (talk) 15:17, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Official date of dissolution

Actually, according to this book, the Chinese soviet republic was only formally dissolved on september 22, 1937, when the CCP issued its manifesto on unity with the KMT. As they still controlled some areas after the fall of the Jiangxi soviet, we cannot consider that it ceased to exist in 1934. This could confirm my theory that the "axe & sickle" flag was actually chosen in 1935 after the long march, like the war flag. Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 06:02, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

The flags again

I had an exchange at commons with the creator of the "axe and sickle" image, and he offered me a great deal of informations about the (many) flags of the CSR. You can read our exchanges here and here. I'll try to sort out the mess at the French article (which needs badly to be developed) and maybe here if nobody has the time to do so. Apparently the current flag in the infobox was some rallying signs of the chinese communists and not a national flag (it did exist, as I saw recently in a documentary). Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 10:34, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm posting the images here, so it might easier :

File:Flag of the Chinese Soviet Republic.svg

First war flag and substitute national flag

Second substitute national flag/war flag

Map

Why isn't there a map of the Chinese Soviet Republic

-somedude1212, 1:55, 13 June 2009

It is rather complicated with pockets of administration scattered over central China. I'm working to adapt a map published by the Chinese Postage Stamp Museum in "The Postage Stamp Catalogue of the Chinese People's Revolutionary Period".

WestNab (talk) 21:38, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

The confusion about the flags

File:Flag of the Chinese Soviet Republic.svg

This svg is wrong, it should be Hammer n sickel, not Axe n sickel

Ok, I think we need to clear the current mess about the flags. Does the first flag (which seems to be consensual on the internet, not that it means much per se) stand for the Chinese soviet republic as a whole, and the second one as just the Jiangxi-Fujian Soviet ? Or is the black-and-white flag the war flag of the Chinese red army ? Are they just different flags for different chinese communist territories ? Does anyone have reliable sources ? Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 13:24, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Please refer to:

commons:Chinese Soviet Republic

Cool that you could find the real war flag. Now, are you really SURE that the "Axe & sickle" flag is wrong ? Some communist flags do have variations, like the North Korean one (hammer + sickle + paintbrush). Maybe they were two successive flags for the republic ? If the war flag was chosen in 1935, could the axe and sickle flag (which arguably looks like it) have been chosen after the Long march, for the Shaanxi communist territory (conceived as a continuation of the Soviet Republic, on what was left of the communist territory) ? I'm just speculating here. Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 17:12, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

There is a 3rd flag here: http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A4%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BB:Flag_of_the_Chinese_Soviet_Republic2.gif --Gary123 (talk) 15:18, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

According to the description on commons, that's the flag of the communist party's central commitee for the Soviet Republic. Now, I'd have another question : did the soviet republic ever consider itself dissolved, including after the fall of Jiangxi soviet in 1934 ? They still had their Shaanxi territory after the Long march, so that would fit with my theory above. Does anyone have sources on this ? Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 22:45, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Certainly the Chinese Postage Stamp Museum, presumably following current Party line, include issues of the Postal Administration of the Shaanxi-Gansu-Ningxia Border Region in "Chinese Soviet Posts". This administration closed its postal service on March 22nd 1938. Thus I think the Party likes to think of the Chinese Soviet continuing through and after the Long March, until the pact with the Kuomintang against the Japanese. WestNab (talk) 21:47, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Problems with Using the term Soviet China for 1935-1949

On the suggestion of merging this article into a broader Soviet China article which would cover all Red-areas 1927-1949...

While I definitely think this Soviet China article is very useful in consolidating the history of Red-occupied china 1927-1949 into one article, I don't know if its necessary to simply remove the Soviet Republic article. I think it might be artificially consolidating different political entities. A centralized article is a useful organizational tool but it shouldn't come at the expense of forcing historical squares into circles. The differences between Soviet China and the Yenan base-areas were not just formal but also reflected a change in orientation. The post-Long March Chinese Reds never referred to their government as "Soviet" since they wished to play on Chinese nationalism and disown any foreign influences. The term Soviet China is never used for post-1935 base areas. Especially during the World War II period there was a common illusion agreed on by the CPC and KMT that there was one unified Chinese state against the Japanese. There are plenty of examples on wikipedia of one general article covering a large scope, and then more specific articles covering more detailed aspects. Especially in military articles we have articles about wars, campaigns and battles in decreasing size. So I think there is room for both a Soviet China and Soviet Chinese Republic article.

As of now this article seems to be entirely a copy and paste of the Chinese Soviet Republic article anyway. The current Soviet China article is already fairly long only currying the Soviet Republic period. It doesn't make any sense to replace an article on the Chinese Soviet Republic which actually existed and called itself that, with a vague article on "Soviet China", a term that is never used by historians to refer to 1935-1949 Red areas. It also gives the misleading impression that the People's Republic directly succeeded the Soviet Republic when in fact there was a 15 year gap. So perhaps the solution is to focus this article on 1935-1949 Red China or perhaps start new articles on the Yanan base area or Communist resistance bases during WW2. --Gary123 (talk) 14:32, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Source of the correct national flag

The national flag, national emblem and army flag of the Chinese Soviet Republic was designed on the Second National Soviet Congress (第二次全国苏维埃代表大会) in an official document titled "The Confirmation about National Emblem, National Flag and Army flag by the Second National Soviet Congress" (《第二次全国苏维埃代表大会关于国徽国旗及军旗的决定》) in 1934.

The original text can be seen on the archive from the official website of CCP: 第二次全国苏维埃代表大会关于国徽国旗及军旗的决定.

...
（二）国旗为红色底子，横为五尺，直为三尺六寸，加国徽于其上，旗柄为白色。
（三）军旗为红色底子，横为五尺，直为三尺六寸，中为黄色的交叉镰刀锤子，右角上为黄色的五角星。旗柄为白色。
...

Translation:

(2) National flag is a flag of red background, with 5 Chi in length and 3 Chi 6 Cun in width, with a national emblem on it. The sleeve of the flag is in white.

(3) Army flag is a flag of red background, with 5 Chi in length and 3 Chi 6 Cun in width. In the middle of the flag is a crossed hammer and sickle, with a yellow five-point star in the right-upper corner. The sleeve of the flag is in white.

Please note that the emblem on the flag of the Central Executive Committee of Chinese Soviet Republic is not the national emblem. It's 中央執行委員會 (Central Executive Committee). But on the the national emblem is 全世界無產階級和被壓迫的民族聯合起來 (workers and oppressed peoples of the world, unite!), as appears on the flag.

Also on the correct army flag, the star is on the right-upper corner. See the historical photo:

[3]

[4]

-- Ericmetro (talk) 12:34, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Image from an original photo: http://www.xztc.edu.cn/mzd/photo/tu/191311.jpg -- Ericmetro (talk) 17:51, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

vandalism?

"Sponsored Content" table shows up with a broken image and a link to test.wikipedia.org. Is this vandalism? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.15.59.79 (talk) 07:11, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Help with adding more pages that are on the Chinese Wikipedia related to this

https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%B8%AD%E5%8D%8E%E8%8B%8F%E7%BB%B4%E5%9F%83%E6%B0%91%E4%B8%BB%E5%85%B1%E5%92%8C%E5%9B%BD is one of the pages I'm currently trying to translate. It is another Soviet Republic that was controlled by Mao Zedong that controlled different regions of China. There are more articles related to that one that are only on the Chinese Wikipedia. Here is a WikiData link about the page: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q10872458 Here is a draft of an English version of the page that needs help: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Northwest_Federal_Soviet_Republic_of_China Russam5354 (talk) 22:05, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

Map

Is there any way for someone to make a map of the state ?--MarcusPearl95 (talk) 04:35, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Not really--it was just scattered pockets of government and not an actual state as we know it. Zhonghua88 (talk) 22:14, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Various books show Red Areas: zones of control and zones of influence. No idea if there are any copyright-free images other than the one shown. Try googling for it.--GwydionM (talk) 09:42, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Chinese Soviet Republic. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 07:09, 5 August 2017 (UTC)